Ahhh, the hero that once reversed a Sudden Spoiling, the hidden reminder that Split Second isn't actually the top of the stack chain (despite being technically on top).
Ahhh, the hero that once reversed a Sudden Spoiling, the hidden reminder that Split Second isn't actually the top of the stack chain (despite being technically on top).
Funny you should mention that, I played a game last week where I was piloting Animar and had a face down Willbender in play when someone tried to Deepglow Skate a freshly played Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I was delighted to gift his "double counters" trigger to Animar, so then he responded with Sudden Spoiling and learned about the weirdness that is Morph on the stack.
I think this is probably best time to have a conversation about the morph mechanic since every morph is willbender.
3 mana 2/2s are really weak in the format so it really has to be a powerful flip up effect to be worth it. I find it mildly annoyed I have to play two morphs in my deck just so people don't know exactly what it is.
Of course there is a million ways to abuse the mechanic but I still think overall it is a pretty weak.
Oh god, i think i was the only one thinking this way. Everyone is quick to approve blue removals because "the flavor says it's trasformation" while mechanically they are wrong cards. I don't get how maro can hate chaos warp but not this
Because he doesn't really care all that much about Commander. (Or at least, doesn't care more about it than he does other formats.) Reality Shift is fine in "normal" magic because giving your opponent a 2/2 is actually a meaningful drawback.
Maro's problem with Chaos Warp is that is he doesn't want red to be able to deal with enchantments period, whereas blue transformation effects are fine as long as they're costed properly. It turns out that 1U is a reasonable cost for this effect in Limited and Standard and too high for the card to be any good in Modern, but for Commander it's a bargain. When people explained this to him, he basically said they should ask the RC to ban it. Which is kind of silly, but the point is that this card is fine (in fact, maybe a little underpowered) in Magic as a whole, it's just the peculiarities of Commander that make it so good here.
On the other hand he considers Swords and Path to be mistakes because those tend to be better than black removal in every format where they're legal, so they're a "Magic as a whole" problem rather than a format-specific one.
(NB: Not saying I agree with 100% of this, just trying to represent Maro's position accurately.)
Oh god, i think i was the only one thinking this way. Everyone is quick to approve blue removals because "the flavor says it's trasformation" while mechanically they are wrong cards. I don't get how maro can hate chaos warp but not this
Because he doesn't really care all that much about Commander. (Or at least, doesn't care more about it than he does other formats.) Reality Shift is fine in "normal" magic because giving your opponent a 2/2 is actually a meaningful drawback.
Maro's problem with Chaos Warp is that is he doesn't want red to be able to deal with enchantments period, whereas blue transformation effects are fine as long as they're costed properly. It turns out that 1U is a reasonable cost for this effect in Limited and Standard and too high for the card to be any good in Modern, but for Commander it's a bargain. When people explained this to him, he basically said they should ask the RC to ban it. Which is kind of silly, but the point is that this card is fine (in fact, maybe a little underpowered) in Magic as a whole, it's just the peculiarities of Commander that make it so good here.
On the other hand he considers Swords and Path to be mistakes because those tend to be better than black removal in every format where they're legal, so they're a "Magic as a whole" problem rather than a format-specific one.
(NB: Not saying I agree with 100% of this, just trying to represent Maro's position accurately.)
I'd argue that how good a card is does not have bearing on whether it's color appropriate. Even in standard, those effects are too direct of removal for blue. Yes, 2/2s and 3/3s are real drawbacks there, but MARO has also said Beast Within is inappropriate, and for essentially the same reasons I gave for these blue cards.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'd argue that how good a card is does not have bearing on whether it's color appropriate. Even in standard, those effects are too direct of removal for blue. Yes, 2/2s and 3/3s are real drawbacks there, but MARO has also said Beast Within is inappropriate, and for essentially the same reasons I gave for these blue cards.
Right, because he considers it inappropriate in green. Not in blue. It's fine to disagree, but there isn't really an inconsistency there.
I was piloting Animar and had a face down Willbender in play when someone tried to Deepglow Skate a freshly played Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I was delighted to gift his "double counters" trigger to Animar, so then he responded with Sudden Spoiling and learned about the weirdness that is Morph on the stack.
So... he decided to completely waste his Sudden Spoiling?
I'd argue that how good a card is does not have bearing on whether it's color appropriate. Even in standard, those effects are too direct of removal for blue. Yes, 2/2s and 3/3s are real drawbacks there, but MARO has also said Beast Within is inappropriate, and for essentially the same reasons I gave for these blue cards.
Right, because he considers it inappropriate in green. Not in blue. It's fine to disagree, but there isn't really an inconsistency there.
I don't see how it isn't inconsistent. Neither color is supposed to be able to deal with creatures this way. Both colors get transformation to an extent, but it was never supposed to function as straight up cheap removal.
It seems that since around 2010, MARO has been increasing willing to stretch the "its transformation" flavor argument into cards that function more like PtE, while using the same argument to say cards like Beast Within don't belong in Green because, while being transformation they function too much like straight removal. Green and Blue are supposed to overlap very strongly on this front, and he still acts as if they do despite this clear divergence. Pognify, the Gatecrash semi reprint, and Beast Within were all pushing the same theme of blue and green transformation, which is driven home by Pognify and its cousin making green tokens.
The official line has stayed the same, but there has been a divergence in application. He was right to recognize how much Beast Within, despite fitting flavorwise as a transformation spell, was too functionally similar to a removal spell which caused it to feel like a kill spell. Somehow, he ignores that when it comes to the blue cards despite them playing and feeling the same way.
The key to making them not a color pie break is to make them temporary or to make them reversible. The enchantment from Eldritch Moon that turns a creature into a land is a great example. Being a random transformation is another way that blue can do it. Reality Shift falls into that category, the polymorph category, but halfway fails at it because of how often its a 2/2. I'm much more OK with RS than Pognify and Curse of Swine though, as it still fits the flavor of a random forced mutation or transformation, but it would have been much better if it just turned the creature face down.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I don't see how it isn't inconsistent. Neither color is supposed to be able to deal with creatures this way. Both colors get transformation to an extent, but it was never supposed to function as straight up cheap removal.
I mean, Mark Rosewater is literally the person in charge of deciding which colours are "supposed" to do what. You can have a different opinion but there really isn't any sense in which he can actually be wrong here. The whole thing is subjective and there isn't a higher authority to appeal to. In any case blue has always been better at dealing with creatures than green. Unsummon and Control Magic have been there since Alpha (not to mention countermagic). Green's answer to creatures has always been "play a bigger creature". Nowadays it also gets Prey Upon effects, in order to use its fatties to destroy utility creatures as well.
It seems that since around 2010, MARO has been increasing willing to stretch the "its transformation" flavor argument into cards that function more like PtE, while using the same argument to say cards like Beast Within don't belong in Green because, while being transformation they function too much like straight removal. Green and Blue are supposed to overlap very strongly on this front, and he still acts as if they do despite this clear divergence. Pognify, the Gatecrash semi reprint, and Beast Within were all pushing the same theme of blue and green transformation, which is driven home by Pognify and its cousin making green tokens.
No, transformation is supposed to be blue, not green. That's one of the main reasons why Maro doesn't like Beast Within. (The other reason is that green is not supposed to be able to deal with creatures without using its own creatures.) The cards make green tokens because Ovinomancer did it 20 years ago and it became a tradition.
None of this has anything to do with Willbender so it's probably best not to carry this on much longer. Your disagreement here is more with Maro than me, in any case. (I think Beast Within is fine for green.)
The key to making them not a color pie break is to make them temporary or to make them reversible. The enchantment from Eldritch Moon that turns a creature into a land is a great example. Being a random transformation is another way that blue can do it. Reality Shift falls into that category, the polymorph category, but halfway fails at it because of how often its a 2/2. I'm much more OK with RS than Pognify and Curse of Swine though, as it still fits the flavor of a random forced mutation or transformation, but it would have been much better if it just turned the creature face down.
The color pie break "issue" for Beast Within is that it can hit creatures (green gets to destroy noncreatures, flying creatures, and use big creatures to kill creatures, but doesn't get to blanket handle any creature), and similarly the "issue" for Chaos Warp is that it can hit enchantments (red can hit artifacts and lands, and can burn creatures and planeswalkers, but doesn't get to handle enchantments). Blue is allowed to deal with creatures so long as there's some kind of Polymorph-esque drawback or it's temporary (eg, bounce), so Reality Shift isn't a color pie break.
You can argue about how strong it is in general or in a particular environment, but it's not escaping blue's scope.
I don't see how it isn't inconsistent. Neither color is supposed to be able to deal with creatures this way. Both colors get transformation to an extent, but it was never supposed to function as straight up cheap removal.
I mean, Mark Rosewater is literally the person in charge of deciding which colours are "supposed" to do what. You can have a different opinion but there really isn't any sense in which he can actually be wrong here. The whole thing is subjective and there isn't a higher authority to appeal to. In any case blue has always been better at dealing with creatures than green. Unsummon and Control Magic have been there since Alpha (not to mention countermagic). Green's answer to creatures has always been "play a bigger creature". Nowadays it also gets Prey Upon effects, in order to use its fatties to destroy utility creatures as well.
It seems that since around 2010, MARO has been increasing willing to stretch the "its transformation" flavor argument into cards that function more like PtE, while using the same argument to say cards like Beast Within don't belong in Green because, while being transformation they function too much like straight removal. Green and Blue are supposed to overlap very strongly on this front, and he still acts as if they do despite this clear divergence. Pognify, the Gatecrash semi reprint, and Beast Within were all pushing the same theme of blue and green transformation, which is driven home by Pognify and its cousin making green tokens.
No, transformation is supposed to be blue, not green. That's one of the main reasons why Maro doesn't like Beast Within. (The other reason is that green is not supposed to be able to deal with creatures without using its own creatures.) The cards make green tokens because Ovinomancer did it 20 years ago and it became a tradition.
None of this has anything to do with Willbender so it's probably best not to carry this on much longer. Your disagreement here is more with Maro than me, in any case. (I think Beast Within is fine for green.)
Yes, my problem is with MAROs interpretation, not with you. His statement there is contradicted by green getting a number of spells that transform creatures since Beast Within, such as Song of the Dryads and that card from Shadows block that turns other creatures into it. Again, he says one thing but Magic prints otherwise.
Also, I've been arguing that RS just barely passes the test because it can randomly backfire like polymorph, and that Pognify and such are the real issue.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
First Reality Warp and now this. The Random Number God apparently has a sense of humor.
You do not want to help an opponent manifest this guy. Or try to cast removal spells when he's face-down.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Permeating Mass is...weird, and definitely feels like it could be blue to me, but sort of tangential to this. Inasmuch as turning something into a copy is "removal-like", that makes the Mass's ability "deathtouch-like" and deathtouch is fine for green.
Kernos is pretty neat, but I have a friend who still resents the card for not being the coin-flip god. It's close to coin flipping, but no Krark's Fun for anyone.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
My favorite goodstuff commander for Izzet. He requires very little to build around him. Lots of cards in those colors (and top) allow top deck manipulation, to get the effect you want more often than not. He also encourages running creatures, or at least permanents, as he is a decent threat once you hit devotion. He's not OP, but very splashy, and his effects are both strong over time and very true to their colors. He doesn't help you combo, he doesn't want you to run mostly spells, he just draws cards, slings bolts, and beats face. You can stick him in a control shell with enchantments and a few key creatures, or just goodstuff with some light countermagic, or even a combo deck that has a lot of permanents as an alternate wincon, but I personally prefer the good stuff route. Best of all he lets you play Izzet without automatically becoming the guy everyone wants to kill! I guess Kraum and Ludevic together (or on their own for some reason) do the same, but Keranos doesn't draw your opponents card, and he demands less of a build around then Tibor and Lumia or Jori En, the other two that don't normally draw insta hate.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Kernos is pretty neat, but I have a friend who still resents the card for not being the coin-flip god. It's close to coin flipping, but no Krark's Fun for anyone.
Met a prison deck using Keranos, slow death under his beardy muscle.
Keranos is pretty nice. I run him in my Niv deck for extra card draw or the occasional bolt as needed. He's fun, not too splashy, and can add up the pain over time, creature or no. I considered running him as a commander at one point, and if I manage to get a spare, I may actually do it.
I've wanted to use Keranos for am artifact deck for a while. I like that he can provide a bit of inevitably in addition to some extra cards. In an artifact build he would usually not be a creature making him just a little bit harder to remove. I would probably use Rings of Brighthearth to fuel a mana combo with Basalt Monolith or Voltaic Key and Grim Monolith or even Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient and Gilded Lotus with the Key; use something like Comet Storm to use the mana to finish. I also have other artifact combo pieces like a Staff of Domination I could include. I've just never picked up a copy and don't want to build the deck with any other commander.
I was piloting Animar and had a face down Willbender in play when someone tried to Deepglow Skate a freshly played Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I was delighted to gift his "double counters" trigger to Animar, so then he responded with Sudden Spoiling and learned about the weirdness that is Morph on the stack.
So... he decided to completely waste his Sudden Spoiling?
Pretty much. His thinking was that casting it in response to the Willbender trigger would shut it off and prevent me from stealing the Deepglow Skate trigger. We had to explain to him that even with split second, once the morph creature is face up it's ability resolves.
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Unless you're staring down a Pickles Lock, of course.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Funny you should mention that, I played a game last week where I was piloting Animar and had a face down Willbender in play when someone tried to Deepglow Skate a freshly played Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I was delighted to gift his "double counters" trigger to Animar, so then he responded with Sudden Spoiling and learned about the weirdness that is Morph on the stack.
3 mana 2/2s are really weak in the format so it really has to be a powerful flip up effect to be worth it. I find it mildly annoyed I have to play two morphs in my deck just so people don't know exactly what it is.
Of course there is a million ways to abuse the mechanic but I still think overall it is a pretty weak.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Maro's problem with Chaos Warp is that is he doesn't want red to be able to deal with enchantments period, whereas blue transformation effects are fine as long as they're costed properly. It turns out that 1U is a reasonable cost for this effect in Limited and Standard and too high for the card to be any good in Modern, but for Commander it's a bargain. When people explained this to him, he basically said they should ask the RC to ban it. Which is kind of silly, but the point is that this card is fine (in fact, maybe a little underpowered) in Magic as a whole, it's just the peculiarities of Commander that make it so good here.
On the other hand he considers Swords and Path to be mistakes because those tend to be better than black removal in every format where they're legal, so they're a "Magic as a whole" problem rather than a format-specific one.
(NB: Not saying I agree with 100% of this, just trying to represent Maro's position accurately.)
I'd argue that how good a card is does not have bearing on whether it's color appropriate. Even in standard, those effects are too direct of removal for blue. Yes, 2/2s and 3/3s are real drawbacks there, but MARO has also said Beast Within is inappropriate, and for essentially the same reasons I gave for these blue cards.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I don't see how it isn't inconsistent. Neither color is supposed to be able to deal with creatures this way. Both colors get transformation to an extent, but it was never supposed to function as straight up cheap removal.
It seems that since around 2010, MARO has been increasing willing to stretch the "its transformation" flavor argument into cards that function more like PtE, while using the same argument to say cards like Beast Within don't belong in Green because, while being transformation they function too much like straight removal. Green and Blue are supposed to overlap very strongly on this front, and he still acts as if they do despite this clear divergence. Pognify, the Gatecrash semi reprint, and Beast Within were all pushing the same theme of blue and green transformation, which is driven home by Pognify and its cousin making green tokens.
The official line has stayed the same, but there has been a divergence in application. He was right to recognize how much Beast Within, despite fitting flavorwise as a transformation spell, was too functionally similar to a removal spell which caused it to feel like a kill spell. Somehow, he ignores that when it comes to the blue cards despite them playing and feeling the same way.
The key to making them not a color pie break is to make them temporary or to make them reversible. The enchantment from Eldritch Moon that turns a creature into a land is a great example. Being a random transformation is another way that blue can do it. Reality Shift falls into that category, the polymorph category, but halfway fails at it because of how often its a 2/2. I'm much more OK with RS than Pognify and Curse of Swine though, as it still fits the flavor of a random forced mutation or transformation, but it would have been much better if it just turned the creature face down.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
No, transformation is supposed to be blue, not green. That's one of the main reasons why Maro doesn't like Beast Within. (The other reason is that green is not supposed to be able to deal with creatures without using its own creatures.) The cards make green tokens because Ovinomancer did it 20 years ago and it became a tradition.
None of this has anything to do with Willbender so it's probably best not to carry this on much longer. Your disagreement here is more with Maro than me, in any case. (I think Beast Within is fine for green.)
You can argue about how strong it is in general or in a particular environment, but it's not escaping blue's scope.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Yes, my problem is with MAROs interpretation, not with you. His statement there is contradicted by green getting a number of spells that transform creatures since Beast Within, such as Song of the Dryads and that card from Shadows block that turns other creatures into it. Again, he says one thing but Magic prints otherwise.
Also, I've been arguing that RS just barely passes the test because it can randomly backfire like polymorph, and that Pognify and such are the real issue.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
You do not want to help an opponent manifest this guy. Or try to cast removal spells when he's face-down.
On phasing:
Permeating Mass is...weird, and definitely feels like it could be blue to me, but sort of tangential to this. Inasmuch as turning something into a copy is "removal-like", that makes the Mass's ability "deathtouch-like" and deathtouch is fine for green.
Kernos is pretty neat, but I have a friend who still resents the card for not being the coin-flip god. It's close to coin flipping, but no Krark's Fun for anyone.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Met a prison deck using Keranos, slow death under his beardy muscle.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
amazingly epic sig courtesy of DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Planes.
I think I'm only considering him in cube.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Pretty much. His thinking was that casting it in response to the Willbender trigger would shut it off and prevent me from stealing the Deepglow Skate trigger. We had to explain to him that even with split second, once the morph creature is face up it's ability resolves.