The thing with returning cards from my graveyard to my hand is that I want to play said card on the same turn. People tend to not want you alive when they know you're holding threats that they will have to deal with again. That is why I'd rather use a cheap recursive spell like Regrowth than go big. I guess it still has a place in like, big mana decks that draw tons of cards because of the no max handsize forever bit.
That's the thing though, Igzex...it's in the right color for running even that CMC and then at least the biggest threat(s) from your hand same turn, so that's almost a non-issue, I'd argue. As for Dunharrow's question(how often do you need that many cards from your GY), my first though would be mill/discard decks, but they have(or dang well SHOULD have) ways to play the cards straight from the GY, so yeah...that would be a good point.
Better than running Reliquary Tower? Most people have been poo-poohing it as an overrated card, so while this is a very POOR alternative, maybe there's that?
None of my decks have a need for it, and I traded my one copy for a card I wanted, so...yeah, I got nothing more.
Question of the day: how many mistakes do you think I made trying to spell that correctly?
None. They were all just happy accidents.
This is usually a draw 30 when you play it. It comes with the drawback of not letting you discard at end of turn, but we'll find a way to win regardless.
This card is great tech in my Wort, the Raidmother green tokens. After drawing thirty cards through Shamanic Revelation, you aren't guaranteed a land drop nor a draw of Reliquary Tower, and this makes for a great backup. If you don't have enough mana, you keep this on your hand while discarding the other stuff (and copy it when cast, making sure that guy with counter magic can't fool your plans[/card].
I dunno.. i think it's got a "BOOM HERE WE GOOOOOOO" potential, but it'd probably never actually get there. I for one have played it in a omnath deck and i don't think it's ever been that effective. The best case scenario would have been float tonnes of mana, cast council/counsel, then pour my hand onto the table, then somehow win, but again, i've never pulled it off before i got sick of omnath being boring.
I also play it in Wort, the Raidmother, although my deck is built around winning via big Fireball effects rather than tokens. It has enough instant spells that can be cast between the first and second copy going off if it's conspired, and if one of those spells is an Early Harvest, that pretty much guarantees I have the mana to win on the spot.
I dunno.. i think it's got a "BOOM HERE WE GOOOOOOO" potential, but it'd probably never actually get there. I for one have played it in a omnath deck and i don't think it's ever been that effective. The best case scenario would have been float tonnes of mana, cast council/counsel, then pour my hand onto the table, then somehow win, but again, i've never pulled it off before i got sick of omnath being boring.
You need synergy. It basically does nothing if you don't have a setup graveyard or a big hand. Reliquary Tower sometimes does the latter better, but it's good to have counsel as a backup, as you're not sure to get to Reliquary Tower. In my Wort it allows me to replay and copy all my tokens, for one. It protects against boardwipes, allows me to have more win conditions ready at the same time and/or replay them (In RG, seven cards is not necessarily enough, especially not in that deck which utilizes chains of token makers where single cards rarely have enough oomph to go there).
I prefer Seasons Past for a mass Regrowth effect. It costs less and is easier to abuse with a tutor for recurring recursion (say that ten times fast). Still, this card is bonkers enough that I typically hit the green player with a Bog if I know I'm not playing with reanimator decks, just in case.
I also play it in Wort, the Raidmother, although my deck is built around winning via big Fireball effects rather than tokens. It has enough instant spells that can be cast between the first and second copy going off if it's conspired, and if one of those spells is an Early Harvest, that pretty much guarantees I have the mana to win on the spot.
Most people do Fireballs. I just find tokens much more fun, and rewarding. Winning through absurd Primal Bellows is amazing, even if not as efficient itself as just nuking people, tokens build into each other, while Fireballs et al don't. I should probably upload the deck eventually.
I also play it in Wort, the Raidmother, although my deck is built around winning via big Fireball effects rather than tokens. It has enough instant spells that can be cast between the first and second copy going off if it's conspired, and if one of those spells is an Early Harvest, that pretty much guarantees I have the mana to win on the spot.
Most people do Fireballs. I just find tokens much more fun, and rewarding. Winning through absurd Primal Bellows is amazing, even if not as efficient itself as just nuking people, tokens build into each other, while Fireballs et al don't. I should probably upload the deck eventually.
The correct spells to copy in a Wort deck are Goblin Game and Fork effects that are targeting Goblin Game.
I have had 27 Goblin Games on the stack at once without going infinite in any way.
I prefer Seasons Past for a mass Regrowth effect. It costs less and is easier to abuse with a tutor for recurring recursion (say that ten times fast). Still, this card is bonkers enough that I typically hit the green player with a Bog if I know I'm not playing with reanimator decks, just in case.
Yeah, while I used to be a big fan of Praetor's Counsel, Seasons Past has replaced it in almost all of my decks. SP will typically be able to get back everything important, and costing two less mana is huge. The tutor possibilities are just the icing on the cake. That said, a resolved Praetor's Counsel will likely set you up for a win the subsequent turn - if you can't do that with your entire yard back in your hand, what are you doing?
Well, this is obviously good. I like how it lets you keep all the cards, which you'll need to be able to do, since this costs eight mana.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Yeah that's another classic that hasn't diminished. At the time it was released it was considered stupidly powerful and it's still an incredibly strong tempo thing; kill a threat and also get your own threat in hand? Great use of your time.
It came in the Mizzix deck, which could often be cast for only UR and potentially adding an experience counter in the process.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Competes with Hypothesizzle these days. Prophetic Bolt lets you dig further, but Hypothesizzle lets you get draw triggers (see Niv-Mizzet 1.0 and 3.0), can get you net +1 CA, and can optionally lead to some graveyard shenanigans (with +0 CA like Propetic Bolt). Bolt can be aimed at a player's face, but in a 40 life multiplayer format, 4 damage is often the least impressive thing you can do with either of the two cards.
Competes with Hypothesizzle these days. Prophetic Bolt lets you dig further, but Hypothesizzle lets you get draw triggers (see Niv-Mizzet 1.0 and 3.0), can get you net +1 CA, and can optionally lead to some graveyard shenanigans (with +0 CA like Propetic Bolt). Bolt can be aimed at a player's face, but in a 40 life multiplayer format, 4 damage is often the least impressive thing you can do with either of the two cards.
"Draw two, discard 1, kill a creature" on an instant is still +1 CA, at least against one player.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Competes with Hypothesizzle these days. Prophetic Bolt lets you dig further, but Hypothesizzle lets you get draw triggers (see Niv-Mizzet 1.0 and 3.0), can get you net +1 CA, and can optionally lead to some graveyard shenanigans (with +0 CA like Propetic Bolt). Bolt can be aimed at a player's face, but in a 40 life multiplayer format, 4 damage is often the least impressive thing you can do with either of the two cards.
"Draw two, discard 1, kill a creature" on an instant is still +1 CA, at least against one player.
The one advantage you both did not note is PB hits planeswalkers. They're both spectacular and flexible ways to get card advantage, but sometimes you'll want one over the other.
There are usually a non-zero amount of x/1s floating around worth killing, and even without that, you can ruin combat math and block a Master of Cruelties effectively.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
It's ok. There's iterations of this I much prefer. Bile Blight is nice for tokens, Drown in Sorrow has a cherry on top. And there's creatures that have this effect too. It's a strong effect, but when I can get multiple triggers from Arhcfiend of Ifnir in a turn and wipe the entire board, paying 1BB for this seems a bit tame. Still, it's bound to be good in a deck somewhere. Instant speed is decent though.
Just too small or high variance an effect for me to consider running, even if it is nice that it's an instant speed trick.
The high variance is what gets me as well. If your meta has a bunch of x/1s that need killing, this will be pretty good, and it's value as a trick is high, but there are too many situations where it just won't be useful.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Better than running Reliquary Tower? Most people have been poo-poohing it as an overrated card, so while this is a very POOR alternative, maybe there's that?
None of my decks have a need for it, and I traded my one copy for a card I wanted, so...yeah, I got nothing more.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
None. They were all just happy accidents.
This is usually a draw 30 when you play it. It comes with the drawback of not letting you discard at end of turn, but we'll find a way to win regardless.
I dunno.. i think it's got a "BOOM HERE WE GOOOOOOO" potential, but it'd probably never actually get there. I for one have played it in a omnath deck and i don't think it's ever been that effective. The best case scenario would have been float tonnes of mana, cast council/counsel, then pour my hand onto the table, then somehow win, but again, i've never pulled it off before i got sick of omnath being boring.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
You need synergy. It basically does nothing if you don't have a setup graveyard or a big hand. Reliquary Tower sometimes does the latter better, but it's good to have counsel as a backup, as you're not sure to get to Reliquary Tower. In my Wort it allows me to replay and copy all my tokens, for one. It protects against boardwipes, allows me to have more win conditions ready at the same time and/or replay them (In RG, seven cards is not necessarily enough, especially not in that deck which utilizes chains of token makers where single cards rarely have enough oomph to go there).
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Most people do Fireballs. I just find tokens much more fun, and rewarding. Winning through absurd Primal Bellows is amazing, even if not as efficient itself as just nuking people, tokens build into each other, while Fireballs et al don't. I should probably upload the deck eventually.
I have had 27 Goblin Games on the stack at once without going infinite in any way.
NOBODY WINS THE GOBLIN GAME!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Yeah, while I used to be a big fan of Praetor's Counsel, Seasons Past has replaced it in almost all of my decks. SP will typically be able to get back everything important, and costing two less mana is huge. The tutor possibilities are just the icing on the cake. That said, a resolved Praetor's Counsel will likely set you up for a win the subsequent turn - if you can't do that with your entire yard back in your hand, what are you doing?
On phasing:
Instant speed dig 4 that answers a threat is actually a really strong turn 5 a lot of the time.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
It came in the Mizzix deck, which could often be cast for only UR and potentially adding an experience counter in the process.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
"Draw two, discard 1, kill a creature" on an instant is still +1 CA, at least against one player.
This still does let you dig, so it can be Hypothesizzle 2. Though it looks a lot lamer when you toss in Alhammarret's Archive or Thought Reflection, to say nothing of graveyard shenanigans.
On phasing:
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
There are usually a non-zero amount of x/1s floating around worth killing, and even without that, you can ruin combat math and block a Master of Cruelties effectively.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
The high variance is what gets me as well. If your meta has a bunch of x/1s that need killing, this will be pretty good, and it's value as a trick is high, but there are too many situations where it just won't be useful.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!