Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but do you really think vryn's is the best? I think it's a bit wrong to say that the floor is a looter - the flip is not optional, if you want him to stay a looter you don't have that option. If you're sitting on a grave with no spells to flashback, and enemies with boards that will easily kill him once he flips...I'd much rather have a regular ol' merfolk looter in that situation.
New jace pisses me off. Lab man is already annoying as butts. Hard to say how jace will compare, but it's not my idea of fun.
Personally, new jace aside for now, I don't think any of the jaces are particularly great. Blue planeswalkers in general tend to either be underwhelming in fair decks, or they're locking down the board with stasis or something in which case, sure, they look good then. I much prefer white/green/black walkers that hold their own without degeneracy. Most of the mono-blue ones just have a bunch of boring draw abilities.
That's a fair point. I still think he is the best Jace because of his low cost, flexibility, and power when built around (which mostly just requires you running some amount of affordable, powerful instants and sorceries). That means he has a reliable home in decks beyond just mill tribal and planeswalker tribal, which is where most other Jaces belong.
But I agree with your other point - no Jace is amazing or staple level. Even the top three I listed are going to be "solid roleplayers in the right deck" and not "auto-include all-stars". Planeswalkers are mostly poor in Commander because they draw inordinate hate, are hard to protect, and have diminishing effect in multiplayer. I'd say outside of the "top five" 'walkers (which are in my book Tezzeret the Seeker, Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Dack Fayden, and Daretti, Scrap Savant) most planeswalkers are overrated and run too often in decks that can't really support them and where they aren't really doing anything relevant enough to justify their slot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
For Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, if the the -2 ability was for "non-land permanent" instead of bouncing just creatures then I think it would see some significant (albeit not necessarily widespread) play. As it is, its just not good enough.
I've looked at this one before. It's a little too obtuse to do anything it's trying to do really well. When you're saccing creatures you want immediate advantage to replace your board presence. Having to tap to sacrifice makes it considerably weaker too, as it means you can sacrifice one creature per turn cycle. And then the dais itself is open to destruction before you get your payoff, which leaves you with nothing but a sad look on your face. Comparing to the other sac outlets in the format, it really just doesn't stand up well enough.
Having to tap limits your ability to take advantage of your sac outlet. Just use a Hidden Stockpile, Altar of Dementia, Ashnod's Altar...even Vampiric Rites. Key is, you want a sac outlet that is repeatable on demand. That's what makes a good sac outlet.
It's a nice way to turn Charge Counter generation into cards, and it's a good manaless way to respond to removal spells. Often outperforms its intended function.
I usually run it in my zirilan builds, if they're interesting in sacking and recurring dragons. Mostly because sac outlet options are limited. Having a free sac outlet was especially critical during the tuck days, because the deck basically scoops to zirilan getting tucked, so if you wanted to play it safely on 5 mana you needed a free sac outlet. Still an issue with song of the dryads, though.
These days it's still fine. Rarely do I need to sac more than 1 creature a turn, so it gets the job done. Not fancy, but there are only so many free sac outlets around (although the free part is less important).
It's not SO bad, i think. some colours have a hard time with card draw, and this helps. It's not like it's going to be specifically targeted with removal (unless it's an overloaded vandalblast or something).
Works with proliferate, energy chamber. I suspect there'd be at least one person in my playgroup who'd want to spend a trickbind on it just because.
Too slow. Only real use I can think of for this is if I'm playing Skullclamp and anthems in the same deck, to deal with antagonism. Even there, Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar is usually what I really want.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Having to tap limits your ability to take advantage of your sac outlet. Just use a Hidden Stockpile, Altar of Dementia, Ashnod's Altar...even Vampiric Rites. Key is, you want a sac outlet that is repeatable on demand. That's what makes a good sac outlet.
Yeah, I'd view this more as a source of card draw in a proliferate deck than as a proper sac outlet.
I should probably stick this is a few of my creature heavy decks as I hate pouring my mana into a nice fatty or massive X value hydra when there's untapped blue mana available..
I would play this over Telepathy. I want to know things, I don't want to share that knowledge.
nah, telepathy is way better. Your opponents knowing what each other have is almost always to your benefit since they'll answer each other's threats as optimally as possible, but won't know yours, they'll attack the guy holding the board wipe to force the issue, etc. Also you get to know everything at once with real-time updates.
nah, telepathy is way better. Your opponents knowing what each other have is almost always to your benefit since they'll answer each other's threats as optimally as possible, but won't know yours, they'll attack the guy holding the board wipe to force the issue, etc. Also you get to know everything at once with real-time updates.
Telepathy is 10/10, this is like 6/10.
Telepathy is 0/10 style points. This is 10/10 style points. Style counts!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
nah, telepathy is way better. Your opponents knowing what each other have is almost always to your benefit since they'll answer each other's threats as optimally as possible, but won't know yours, they'll attack the guy holding the board wipe to force the issue, etc. Also you get to know everything at once with real-time updates.
In my experience, this only happens when one opponent has a game-ending threat or something that dramatically hoses another opponent. Usually, people end up gunning for the person who's hiding information from the table.
In my experience, this only happens when one opponent has a game-ending threat or something that dramatically hoses another opponent. Usually, people end up gunning for the person who's hiding information from the table.
i can't exactly disprove that, except to say that my experience has not born that out, and I've played a lot of telepathy in a lot of places. But different groups are different.
Sometimes it helps to make people more aware of what's in people's hands, and what the implications are. What combo pieces that tutor could grab, etc.
Revelation might be ok for some decks, but I don't think those decks should be playing either card. Telepathy is best when you've got lots of answers and need to dole them out optimally. Showing everyone your answers drastically reduces their effectiveness.
Brother from another universe. God, now the RNG wants me to make more comic book jokes? Well, no, I refuse! *punches the space-time continuum*
Anyway, I have a slightly better opinion of Jace, but only slightly. Yeah, you do get a scry before drawing. Good. But you also get a bounce.
Probably the best thing I like about this card is, it's fairer than Erayo, Soratami Ascendant.
On phasing:
That's a fair point. I still think he is the best Jace because of his low cost, flexibility, and power when built around (which mostly just requires you running some amount of affordable, powerful instants and sorceries). That means he has a reliable home in decks beyond just mill tribal and planeswalker tribal, which is where most other Jaces belong.
But I agree with your other point - no Jace is amazing or staple level. Even the top three I listed are going to be "solid roleplayers in the right deck" and not "auto-include all-stars". Planeswalkers are mostly poor in Commander because they draw inordinate hate, are hard to protect, and have diminishing effect in multiplayer. I'd say outside of the "top five" 'walkers (which are in my book Tezzeret the Seeker, Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Dack Fayden, and Daretti, Scrap Savant) most planeswalkers are overrated and run too often in decks that can't really support them and where they aren't really doing anything relevant enough to justify their slot.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Tbh, I really like this Jace. The abilities are not overwhelmingly powerful, but scry/draw and bounce is completely welcome.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
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Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I would like to store that card for later.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
The artwork is cool and phyrexian themed though.
Having to tap limits your ability to take advantage of your sac outlet. Just use a Hidden Stockpile, Altar of Dementia, Ashnod's Altar...even Vampiric Rites. Key is, you want a sac outlet that is repeatable on demand. That's what makes a good sac outlet.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
These days it's still fine. Rarely do I need to sac more than 1 creature a turn, so it gets the job done. Not fancy, but there are only so many free sac outlets around (although the free part is less important).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Works with proliferate, energy chamber. I suspect there'd be at least one person in my playgroup who'd want to spend a trickbind on it just because.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
On phasing:
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I would play this over Telepathy. I want to know things, I don't want to share that knowledge.
If only I could find a good wincon for it.
Telepathy is 10/10, this is like 6/10.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Telepathy is 0/10 style points. This is 10/10 style points. Style counts!
People tend to be more chill about Revelation.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
(I liked this card better when I imagined it costing 0, I guess that was Urza's Contact Lenses...)
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Sometimes it helps to make people more aware of what's in people's hands, and what the implications are. What combo pieces that tutor could grab, etc.
Revelation might be ok for some decks, but I don't think those decks should be playing either card. Telepathy is best when you've got lots of answers and need to dole them out optimally. Showing everyone your answers drastically reduces their effectiveness.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This card gets the same effect, but its limitations make it more fun to me.
If I want the effect, I prefer this card.