-I love how you deliberately cut out the part of my post where I explicitly say that of course there are enchantments worth removing. So you can make a list of enchantments worth removing.
No, I cut out the part where you said enchantments are least likely to need removal and then pointed out a list of things that need removal. It was my malicious plan of leaving in you saying enchantment removal is good and then claiming you didn't say that.
Seriously though, the middle part was a detailed explanation of the first sentence of your reply. I just cut it for space, I wasn't trying to white it out.
-Why on earth would answers being versatile mean you have to fire them off indiscriminately? Being versatile means you can wait for the exact right permanent to use it on.
Being versitile doesn't imply firing off. "Rotting in my hand" does though.
-Just enchantment removal isn't good enough...because removal that hits artifact AND enchantments is available at THE SAME COST. Why would you play spring cleaning while naturalize and its many clones exist? (well...possibly because you're running enchanted evening, but I think that's the only real application for this card). If those didn't exist you might have a point.
Because those have a lower ceiling on how good they can be. It's a risk/reward decision. I do have a point. I have many points. All are good.
For example, I considered bringing up Enchanted Evening, but I was pretty sure someone had to have mentioned it by now. Nope, just a bunch of people who wouldn't consider enchantment removal if it can't also hit mana rocks.
-I wouldn't say "board wipes are better than spot removal" is accepted, at all. I certainly don't accept that. They serve different functions. Control decks usually want some of both.
-Besides that, high concentrations of board wipes pushing the metagame in an undesirable direction doesn't make the supposed maxim wrong. It might mean people should avoid following it to preserve an enjoyable experience, but that's not the same thing as wrong (although it is also wrong).
You're telling me you haven't heard "spot removal is card disadvantage in multiplayer!" a billion times?
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
This back and forth has really deterred me from coming to this thread, as it’s gone on for the past few cards.
Seriously, let it go, both of you. Different stroke for different folks. Pretty sure this isn’t the place for these discussions, legitimate or not.
Lol, well in fairness I think I'm the argumentative one. tstorm is only occasionally my accomplice.
Nothing much is learned from unexamined opinions. Discussion is how the game is advanced. Does that mean I could be less harsh? OK, probably, that's fair. But you can have my Socratic method when you pull it from my cold dead brain.
This back-and-forth shows a difference of philosophy; for example I tend to find people play way too many boardwipes, frequently jamming them into decks with 40+ creatures where they often will backfire and a spot removal spell would have better served.
For Spring Cleaning, however, it's hard for me to justify. Enchantments do need to die, but also frequently there aren't a lot of targets in my meta. For the removal equation in the first post on Cleaning, there's one other consideration to me: versatility! Clearly, CMC 2 or less, possibly upshot, and instant are all crucial for removals, but that versatility matters too.
- I am willing to play a card that hits only creatures, as most decks have at least one and many have tons. Swords to Plowshares, Tragic Slip, Reality Shift, and Go for the Throat only hit one kind of target, but it's the most common target.
- I am reluctant to play a card that only hits artifacts, like say Shatter or Smash or Oxidize. While artifacts are by far the most second common target (if nothing else you can hit mana rocks and boots), across Magic's history I can usually find a card to hit artifacts and something else for a similar mana cost. Occasionally I will run a card that hits only artifacts if it has extreme upside (Vandalblast, By Force, Viashino Heretic, Ancient Grudge) or extreme synergy (Ingot Chewer in a death/graveyard deck), but it doesn't feel good.
- I am almost entirely unwilling to play a card that only hits enchantments - the card is too likely to be a dead draw, and as noted above I can almost always find a card that is the same mana and hits artifacts and enchantments. It would take a LOT of upside for me to think about it - even pretty good cards like today's Spring Cleaning, Ray of Revelation, and Wispmare have a high bar to clear and frequently end up sidelined.
- There is no card in MtG that is just "destroy target planeswalker", but if there was I would be reluctant to run it even with insane upside. Planeswalkers are increasingly common, but are the easiest card type to handle as if nothing else you can punch 'em in the face. You can also frequently find a card at a similar cost to a theoretical "destroy target walker" card that destroys walkers and something else (see: Dreadbore, Vindicate, Oblivion Ring, Beast Within, Lightning Bolt). A removal spell also hitting 'walkers is a nice little perk, but not a thing I strive for.
- I would never run a card that was JUST destroy target land, unless it itself was a land (Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, etc). While it is the actual most common card type, it's considered bad form and I prefer running a few selective answers to dangerous cards like Cradle, Coffers, Academy Ruins, etc over running Stone Rain. Once again, in MtG history one can usually find a more versatile answer.
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Spring Cleaning is almost goodish, it just is the kind of card that would sit in your hand and allow your opponents to dictate your tempo for you. If Green had a colorshifted Shattering Spree that targeted enchantments I'd consider playing that, but honestly, I'd rather pack more diversely targeting removal spells.
This isn't even that good in Enchanted Evening decks because you need to win a clash.
Pretty sure this isn’t the place for these discussions, legitimate or not.
I'm not gonna say it's my party and I'll cry if I want to, but I think I get at least a little home field discretion for what qualifies as on topic.
Maybe I’m just not used to this type of discussion taking place in this thread, considering it’s under relatively new management.
If you’re cool with it, I’m not going to say you shouldn’t be. Just coming from a page where border posts were discussed, then to how many basics is too many basics, to god only knows what, it gets a little muddy.
If you’re cool with it, I’m not going to say you shouldn’t be. Just coming from a page where border posts were discussed, then to how many basics is too many basics, to god only knows what, it gets a little muddy.
I like how those are all super mundane things too. You check the thread and its Arcum Dagsson and think "oh thank god it's not Unsummon, I can't take another controversy."
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
No, I cut out the part where you said enchantments are least likely to need removal and then pointed out a list of things that need removal. It was my malicious plan of leaving in you saying enchantment removal is good and then claiming you didn't say that.
Seriously though, the middle part was a detailed explanation of the first sentence of your reply. I just cut it for space, I wasn't trying to white it out.
Being versitile doesn't imply firing off. "Rotting in my hand" does though.
Because those have a lower ceiling on how good they can be. It's a risk/reward decision. I do have a point. I have many points. All are good.
For example, I considered bringing up Enchanted Evening, but I was pretty sure someone had to have mentioned it by now. Nope, just a bunch of people who wouldn't consider enchantment removal if it can't also hit mana rocks.
You're telling me you haven't heard "spot removal is card disadvantage in multiplayer!" a billion times?
Could have at least put elipsis in there or something, or just removed the quote altogether so it doesn't look like you're intentionally hiding it. Anyway I think I was pretty clear in the first place and you haven't really countered my argument - yes, some enchantments are in need of removal, but since they tend to be relatively rare, it's better to cover that case with cards that can cover other cases as well, so you have as reliable of a removal suite as possible, especially since you incur an almost negligible penalty for the added flexibility.
"Rotting in your hand" is, I suppose, a phrase more apt in other formats, where calculations of card advantage are simpler and simply being able to use removal on basically anything is significantly better than not. And there is a certain logic to "if this spell has big value 50% of the time, that's just as good as this spell which has modest value 100% of the time". That said, the ultimate calculus of this card compared to naturalize is essentially whether being able to hit artifacts is more or less valuable than the chance to destroy all enemy enchantments (although there's also the comparison to back to nature), and I would argue pretty strongly that I'd take the former. In my experience it's pretty rare for multiple powerful enchantments to exist on the board at once (by no means nonexistent, but rare), and then on top of that you have to win a clash, which is generously a 40% chance or so for most decks in a vacuum. That's pretty low odds, in my experience. Compare that to all the games where it's an artifact that needs removing, and I think it's clear, at least to me, that the flexibility is much more valuable.
The greatest value in spot removal, imo, is being cheap and instant-speed, and thus being ideal for answering crucial threats at the right time, and being flexible increases the odds that you'll be able to find a way to interact with that threat. Getting some potential extra value is nice when you can get it, but by far the most important thing, imo, is being the right answer at the right time. Spring cleaning is less likely to be that right answer than other, more flexible, removal, which is why I'd leave it on the sidelines (barring enchanted evening combo wombos).
And spot removal IS card disadvantage in multiplayer. It's just that card disadvantage isn't a death sentence. force of will is unequivocally card disadvantage, but it still gets played everywhere it can because the effect is worth it.
To follow-up on Dirk; spot removal is absolutely card disadvantage in multiplayer and even if you "get 'em" by killing a creature that was about to get targeted with Rite of Replication or Armadillo Cloak you're barely breaking even. That's why I, and most folks, have the litmus test for removal of:
1) Is it instant, so I can deploy it at the right time?
2) Is it cheap? 1 or 2 mana (or zero) ideally, but 3 mana is acceptable.
3) Does it answer more than one card type? And in order of priority, does it answer Creatures, Artifacts, Enchantments, Planeswalkers, and/or Lands?
4) Is there some sort of upside that makes it so that it may generate card advantage of some sort - maybe by answering multiple cards, or drawing me cards, or developing the board?
5) What is this card's value relative to other cards? I only get 100 slots in my deck with all of time and space to play with, so can I do better?
That list is in roughly rank order - I.E. I am willing to deal with drawbacks and narrow targets if I can cast a card for 0 mana at instant speed (Force of Will, Snuff Out), and I am willing to run 1-for-1 or even negative card disadvantage cards if they are versatile (Arcane Denial, Beast Within). With all this in mind, while Spring Cleaning does hit three out of five boxes, it does poorly enough on the other two (hitting only one lower priority card type at significant deck-building cost) that it is a fringe, meta-dependent card, while stuff like Tribute to the Wild, Naturalize, Krosan Grip, Beast Within, Acidic Slime, Caustic Caterpillar, and Nature's Claim are more playable because even though many of them fail at one or more of the above categories as well, they make up for it in versatility.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
"Enchantments are great cause they're so resilient!" - mtgsalvation
"Destroy all enchantments for half the cost of any other type specific board wipe? Why would I run that?" - also mtgsalvation
I'd call it resiliency through obscurity.
Of the card types, enchantments are among the least likely to be important to remove. There are exceptions, obviously, but just as a general rule. There are many games where "destroy target enchantment" is irrelevant or even uncastable. So, people run fewer answers, so the ones that get played are more resilient. Basically the same reason that low-tier decks have the advantage of fewer sideboard counters in tournaments.
Not to say enchantment removal isn't worth running, but I'd like any I run to be more versatile - i.e. naturalize or one of its many, many variants - so I know it won't be rotting in my hand.
This brings up what enchantments to remove. I would say combo pieces and other wincons, repeatable removal, repeatable card draw, and stuff just that messes with my game (e.g., I'm playing spellslinger, eggs, or some sort of storm deck, and you plop down Rule of Law) take precedent.
That said, there are things to be said for enchantment removal that hits other card types. More so than any other type of removal. Obviously Mortify comes to mind. So does Krosan Grip. Actually, Abolish could be interesting in the right deck. Another option being removal that can do other things, like Golgari Charm or Treva's Charm. A deck with a few big tokens, or something like Bant (or Naya) tokens with clone effects could use Sundering Growth.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Late to the game on spring cleaning, but yes, its stupid with enchanted evening. If you plan on doing that, you also plan on winning the Clash. You'll have scry, Sylvan library, top, and brainstorm in your deck. Probably Oracle of Mul Daya as well. You'll now what you have on top, and know that its got a high cmc. So while Clash in a vacuum reads as 50% and is probable more like 40% when lands are taken into account, in the right deck Clash is more like 80-95% reliable, and can be 100% if you know the top of your opponents library. Simply stacking the top card to be around 5cmc should put you at 80%, and it goes up with the cmc, but knowing who to target based on their deck will push it up to close to certain. Knowing who has a low curve, who is going to have a higher percentage of lands, who just used enlightened tutor to find a sword, etc. will let you greatly increase the chances of winning the Clash.
Jaces Archivist is a prime removal target. Don't expect it to live long without greaves. Beyond the obvious applications, he's a great way to dig for combos and answers, though for combos you need to be able to play out part of it before wheeling. Never underestimate the ability of repeated wheels to just screw up people's plans BTW. I also like him for more fair uses, such as just filling your yard with reanimation targets or playing out your hand quickly then activating him to refill it.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I got good mileage out of this in my old Iname as One deck that revolved mostly around getting things from the graveyard back into you hand in the time where it had a pretty heavy dredge subtheme.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I got good mileage out of this in my old Iname as One deck that revolved mostly around getting things from the graveyard back into you hand in the time where it had a pretty heavy dredge subtheme.
I've never played it myself, but its not unplayable. I can almost see a place for it in a low curve Edgar Markov build - if you want any reanimation it has to be dirt cheap and return stuff to your hand. With this you get your grip back and have the chance to turf to a madness trigger with something like Falkenrath Gorger. It's unlikely, but not unheard of.
Macabre Waltz is one of those cards you kind of want to play for the flavor alone, and occasionally it really fits your deck's playstyle too. In my case, I put it in my Athreos, which is all about spamming low-cmc creatures and slowly drowning people in value.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
Seriously, I could see value for this. Actually, the ability to discard a card can be an advantage much of the time, such as in reanimator decks, or if the card in question has aftermath. I'd certainly play this over Raise Dead even though it costs 1 more, most likely over Morbid Plunder. Though not over Evolution Charm or Eternal Witness in a BG deck.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
This card is fine, and in general Raise Dead effects feel underrated in EDH. While I find this generally less useful than Grim Discovery, Phyrexian Reclamation, Fortuitous Find, Corpse Churn or (in golgari colors of course) Regrowth and Eternal Witness, it absolutely has a place especially if you have a super low curve and/or are utilizing madness or discard synergies. The flavor homerun helps.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Having recently been looking through all the black 3 drops I don't own (yes I'm a weirdo), I can attest that there are a TON of 3 mana double-raise-deads in the format. So if you run this, you'd probably better be getting value out of the discard or REALLY want that one-mana discount.
I'd think that Olivia Mobilized for War might want this.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Now this is a good, underrated, card. I run it in Alesha, who smiles at death, and a usual play is to grab back 2 utility dudes like Duregar Hedge mage or the like, and pitch a High cmc creature to resurrect with Alesha. I’ve used it other decks, but it’s an all-star there.
Having recently been looking through all the black 3 drops I don't own (yes I'm a weirdo), I can attest that there are a TON of 3 mana double-raise-deads in the format. So if you run this, you'd probably better be getting value out of the discard or REALLY want that one-mana discount.
I'm curious which ones you're including, since I only count 3 - Morbid Plunder, Death's Duet, and Wander in Death. Reaping the Graves is about the next closest thing (since you are all but guaranteed to get 2+ creatures from it), but after that you're down to stuff like Soul Strings and Unmake the Graves (maybe Fortuitous Find if you're Artifact Creature-heavy), which are a bit of a stretch. Not trying to be argumentative, just honestly curious if I missed anything. 4 double Raise Deads are going to be plenty for pretty much all decks, but I'm not sure I'd call it "a ton".
As for Macabre Waltz, it's certainly excellent for discard-themed decks that play enough creatures, especially cycling ones. Also, returning and then immediately discarding Big Game Hunter is the kind of play that makes Commander so much fun.
In a format with access to cards like Reanimate and Animate Dead, I have trouble finding room for Raise Dead type effects in my decks (Phyrexian Reclamation is the only one I use regularly). That said, if you do want such an effect, especially if you can benefit from the discard, this is a decent example.
No, I cut out the part where you said enchantments are least likely to need removal and then pointed out a list of things that need removal. It was my malicious plan of leaving in you saying enchantment removal is good and then claiming you didn't say that.
Seriously though, the middle part was a detailed explanation of the first sentence of your reply. I just cut it for space, I wasn't trying to white it out.
Being versitile doesn't imply firing off. "Rotting in my hand" does though.
Because those have a lower ceiling on how good they can be. It's a risk/reward decision. I do have a point. I have many points. All are good.
For example, I considered bringing up Enchanted Evening, but I was pretty sure someone had to have mentioned it by now. Nope, just a bunch of people who wouldn't consider enchantment removal if it can't also hit mana rocks.
You're telling me you haven't heard "spot removal is card disadvantage in multiplayer!" a billion times?
Nothing much is learned from unexamined opinions. Discussion is how the game is advanced. Does that mean I could be less harsh? OK, probably, that's fair. But you can have my Socratic method when you pull it from my cold dead brain.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
For Spring Cleaning, however, it's hard for me to justify. Enchantments do need to die, but also frequently there aren't a lot of targets in my meta. For the removal equation in the first post on Cleaning, there's one other consideration to me: versatility! Clearly, CMC 2 or less, possibly upshot, and instant are all crucial for removals, but that versatility matters too.
- I am willing to play a card that hits only creatures, as most decks have at least one and many have tons. Swords to Plowshares, Tragic Slip, Reality Shift, and Go for the Throat only hit one kind of target, but it's the most common target.
- I am reluctant to play a card that only hits artifacts, like say Shatter or Smash or Oxidize. While artifacts are by far the most second common target (if nothing else you can hit mana rocks and boots), across Magic's history I can usually find a card to hit artifacts and something else for a similar mana cost. Occasionally I will run a card that hits only artifacts if it has extreme upside (Vandalblast, By Force, Viashino Heretic, Ancient Grudge) or extreme synergy (Ingot Chewer in a death/graveyard deck), but it doesn't feel good.
- I am almost entirely unwilling to play a card that only hits enchantments - the card is too likely to be a dead draw, and as noted above I can almost always find a card that is the same mana and hits artifacts and enchantments. It would take a LOT of upside for me to think about it - even pretty good cards like today's Spring Cleaning, Ray of Revelation, and Wispmare have a high bar to clear and frequently end up sidelined.
- There is no card in MtG that is just "destroy target planeswalker", but if there was I would be reluctant to run it even with insane upside. Planeswalkers are increasingly common, but are the easiest card type to handle as if nothing else you can punch 'em in the face. You can also frequently find a card at a similar cost to a theoretical "destroy target walker" card that destroys walkers and something else (see: Dreadbore, Vindicate, Oblivion Ring, Beast Within, Lightning Bolt). A removal spell also hitting 'walkers is a nice little perk, but not a thing I strive for.
- I would never run a card that was JUST destroy target land, unless it itself was a land (Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, etc). While it is the actual most common card type, it's considered bad form and I prefer running a few selective answers to dangerous cards like Cradle, Coffers, Academy Ruins, etc over running Stone Rain. Once again, in MtG history one can usually find a more versatile answer.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
This isn't even that good in Enchanted Evening decks because you need to win a clash.
I'm not gonna say it's my party and I'll cry if I want to, but I think I get at least a little home field discretion for what qualifies as on topic.
Maybe I’m just not used to this type of discussion taking place in this thread, considering it’s under relatively new management.
If you’re cool with it, I’m not going to say you shouldn’t be. Just coming from a page where border posts were discussed, then to how many basics is too many basics, to god only knows what, it gets a little muddy.
It’s your party, so cry if you want to.
I like how those are all super mundane things too. You check the thread and its Arcum Dagsson and think "oh thank god it's not Unsummon, I can't take another controversy."
"Rotting in your hand" is, I suppose, a phrase more apt in other formats, where calculations of card advantage are simpler and simply being able to use removal on basically anything is significantly better than not. And there is a certain logic to "if this spell has big value 50% of the time, that's just as good as this spell which has modest value 100% of the time". That said, the ultimate calculus of this card compared to naturalize is essentially whether being able to hit artifacts is more or less valuable than the chance to destroy all enemy enchantments (although there's also the comparison to back to nature), and I would argue pretty strongly that I'd take the former. In my experience it's pretty rare for multiple powerful enchantments to exist on the board at once (by no means nonexistent, but rare), and then on top of that you have to win a clash, which is generously a 40% chance or so for most decks in a vacuum. That's pretty low odds, in my experience. Compare that to all the games where it's an artifact that needs removing, and I think it's clear, at least to me, that the flexibility is much more valuable.
The greatest value in spot removal, imo, is being cheap and instant-speed, and thus being ideal for answering crucial threats at the right time, and being flexible increases the odds that you'll be able to find a way to interact with that threat. Getting some potential extra value is nice when you can get it, but by far the most important thing, imo, is being the right answer at the right time. Spring cleaning is less likely to be that right answer than other, more flexible, removal, which is why I'd leave it on the sidelines (barring enchanted evening combo wombos).
And spot removal IS card disadvantage in multiplayer. It's just that card disadvantage isn't a death sentence. force of will is unequivocally card disadvantage, but it still gets played everywhere it can because the effect is worth it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
1) Is it instant, so I can deploy it at the right time?
2) Is it cheap? 1 or 2 mana (or zero) ideally, but 3 mana is acceptable.
3) Does it answer more than one card type? And in order of priority, does it answer Creatures, Artifacts, Enchantments, Planeswalkers, and/or Lands?
4) Is there some sort of upside that makes it so that it may generate card advantage of some sort - maybe by answering multiple cards, or drawing me cards, or developing the board?
5) What is this card's value relative to other cards? I only get 100 slots in my deck with all of time and space to play with, so can I do better?
That list is in roughly rank order - I.E. I am willing to deal with drawbacks and narrow targets if I can cast a card for 0 mana at instant speed (Force of Will, Snuff Out), and I am willing to run 1-for-1 or even negative card disadvantage cards if they are versatile (Arcane Denial, Beast Within). With all this in mind, while Spring Cleaning does hit three out of five boxes, it does poorly enough on the other two (hitting only one lower priority card type at significant deck-building cost) that it is a fringe, meta-dependent card, while stuff like Tribute to the Wild, Naturalize, Krosan Grip, Beast Within, Acidic Slime, Caustic Caterpillar, and Nature's Claim are more playable because even though many of them fail at one or more of the above categories as well, they make up for it in versatility.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Windfall every turn is good. Kills with Nekusar, but I've seen players milled out by just this card and a way to untap it a couple times.
This brings up what enchantments to remove. I would say combo pieces and other wincons, repeatable removal, repeatable card draw, and stuff just that messes with my game (e.g., I'm playing spellslinger, eggs, or some sort of storm deck, and you plop down Rule of Law) take precedent.
That said, there are things to be said for enchantment removal that hits other card types. More so than any other type of removal. Obviously Mortify comes to mind. So does Krosan Grip. Actually, Abolish could be interesting in the right deck. Another option being removal that can do other things, like Golgari Charm or Treva's Charm. A deck with a few big tokens, or something like Bant (or Naya) tokens with clone effects could use Sundering Growth.
Or just use Aura Shards or Tranquil Growth. Enchantments? Yeah, you won't have those.
Obviously there's also Enchanted Evening, but if I'm going for broke(n), I'm more fond of Living Plane with Night of Souls' Betrayal (or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite) or Mycosynth Lattice with Aura Shards, which, yes, works with Enchanted Evening, but it means adding another color, so I'm stuck using it in decks with exactly four color identities instead of eight.
On phasing:
Jaces Archivist is a prime removal target. Don't expect it to live long without greaves. Beyond the obvious applications, he's a great way to dig for combos and answers, though for combos you need to be able to play out part of it before wheeling. Never underestimate the ability of repeated wheels to just screw up people's plans BTW. I also like him for more fair uses, such as just filling your yard with reanimation targets or playing out your hand quickly then activating him to refill it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I got good mileage out of this in my old Iname as One deck that revolved mostly around getting things from the graveyard back into you hand in the time where it had a pretty heavy dredge subtheme.
I've never played it myself, but its not unplayable. I can almost see a place for it in a low curve Edgar Markov build - if you want any reanimation it has to be dirt cheap and return stuff to your hand. With this you get your grip back and have the chance to turf to a madness trigger with something like Falkenrath Gorger. It's unlikely, but not unheard of.
Seriously, I could see value for this. Actually, the ability to discard a card can be an advantage much of the time, such as in reanimator decks, or if the card in question has aftermath. I'd certainly play this over Raise Dead even though it costs 1 more, most likely over Morbid Plunder. Though not over Evolution Charm or Eternal Witness in a BG deck.
On phasing:
This card is fine, and in general Raise Dead effects feel underrated in EDH. While I find this generally less useful than Grim Discovery, Phyrexian Reclamation, Fortuitous Find, Corpse Churn or (in golgari colors of course) Regrowth and Eternal Witness, it absolutely has a place especially if you have a super low curve and/or are utilizing madness or discard synergies. The flavor homerun helps.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
As for Macabre Waltz, it's certainly excellent for discard-themed decks that play enough creatures, especially cycling ones. Also, returning and then immediately discarding Big Game Hunter is the kind of play that makes Commander so much fun.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Mr Barrin this Cube is on Fire!! - http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/80149
WG Kei Takahashi: Is in Charge Now !? (EDH) WG