How does this work with split cards? if i cast bound//determined, just the determined side, does that mean that other players only need a UG to counter it? or the cost of the whole card?
Also, does it allow for example each copy of a stormed hunting pack to get countered? the copies are just put on the stack, and not played, right? the original card that triggers the storm ability can get countered though, i get that.
Combos with vexing shusher? Actually, does it? if i cast a spell, ice cave triggers, i hold priority and shusher the spell. is that right? or is it cast spell, hold priority, shusher the spell, then ice cave on the stack? in that case, wouldn't the spell be countered before the shusher ability stops it from being countered?
Yes, they'd only need to pay UG to counter Determined, but they'd need 3BG to counter Bound if you had cast that one instead.
You can counter the original Hunting pack, because it was cast, but none of the others because it won't trigger for them.
Yes, Shusher can make your spell uncounterable. Ice cave's ability will then resolve and no one is going to try and pay for it to counter an uncounterable spell.
I have a feeling it plays like a worse Zur's Weirding - everyone stops and kills you so the game can progress. Except maybe not, since if people are slamming big dumb spells they probably won't leave up the mana to counter any other big, dumb spells, so maybe it just gets ignored.
Stopping people from playing threats after you drop Ice Cave means holding up the same mana as them, including colors.
Stopping people from drawing new threats after you drop Zur's Wierding means paying 2 life.
Yeah, it's symmetrical, but somebody playing Ice Cave is likely running a bunch of uncounterable spells or difficult mana costs, and the Wierding player is likely replacing their draws (Tomorrow, Abundance, Words of X, etc.), drawing too many cards to be worth paying the life for, or else simply has more life than their opponents.
Ice Cave is one of the old school famously bad cards. It was designed specifically for 5 color decks because going 5 color let's you counter anything while your opponents are limited in what they can counter (and invasion block was all about playing as many colors as you could). In the right deck, the payoff is surprisingly high, but it's too slow for 1v1 and was a bust for years. EDH though give it new life. There are enough 5 color decks, and edh outside of competitive is slow enough, that this can do interesting things, and it's easier than ever to run uncounterable spells to get around it. Even the 4 color commanders benefit, though some more than others (Breya runs too many colorless artifacts, but Ydris overwhelms with Cascade and Atraxa is Atraxa).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That "you control" is the operative phrase here. If you can keep your spells from being countered, Ice Cave is insane.
This card got a huge boost from OGW saying that off-color mana is still colored, which makes sense because EDH didn't even exist when the card was printed. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So you know how Time Vault was reasonable, but then the game changed and it was busted in half, became briefly worse from functional errata, and then they reverted it to busted? This card did the opposite. It started out reasonable because tapped blockers dealt no damage, then they changed that rule and it became trash, then the errata'd it to prevent the damage, and then the moved away from functional errata and changed it back.
So challenge mode: anyone who can make the ability do something useful or interesting gets 1 free loyalty on their next planeswalker. Just tell your playgroup it's from me, I'm good for it, I promise.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I like to think Jace is just holding this card and the Gerrard Capashen card while smirking. "Heh, these were supposed to represent the original face of Magic the Gathering huh?"
So challenge mode: anyone who can make the ability do something useful or interesting gets 1 free loyalty on their next planeswalker. Just tell your playgroup it's from me, I'm good for it, I promise.
So you know how Time Vault was reasonable, but then the game changed and it was busted in half, became briefly worse from functional errata, and then they reverted it to busted?
Sure. If by "reasonable" you mean "bad on its own" and by "then the game changed and it was busted in half" you mean "busted in half with two additional cards, later one additional card". And by "briefly worse" you mean "as bad as it is on its own".
It's comparable to Lion's Eye Diamond in a lot of ways, which is also bad on its own but busted in half with the right cards.
This card did the opposite. It started out reasonable because tapped blockers dealt no damage, then they changed that rule and it became trash, then the errata'd it to prevent the damage, and then the moved away from functional errata and changed it back.
I was actually thinking of Ice Cave, which was bad in EDH but became reasonable after OGW changed the rules on off-color mana.
They need to put more Weatherlight crew members in EDH product. We already have Mirri.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Powerful and versatile card: reanimation, mass reanimation, and an anthem all in one. Making a deck that cares about all of these options is tricky though, as going wide, having big mana, and having single reanimation targets worth targeting is a lot to balance.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Marshal's Anthem
Powerful and versatile card: reanimation, mass reanimation, and an anthem all in one. Making a deck that cares about all of these options is tricky though, as going wide, having big mana, and having single reanimation targets worth targeting is a lot to balance.
Realistically, you're probably not going to rez more than 2 or 3 creatures with this card; you probably don't need that many favourable targets in a deck that goes wide-ish for it to be worthwhile.
Alternatively, if you're in a deck that ramps a ton (Karametra, God of Harvests comes to mind), just using it as a mass reanimation is kind of plausible; the +1/+1 doesn't matter so much as getting a lot of (presumably) big guys into play.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s cost is appropriate, just for what you are getting out of it isn’t worth it.
Though, the Karametra, God of Harvests deck does sound pretty sweet for this, and something I hadn’t really thought of. GWX reanimation here I come!(No B tho).
I tried playing it for a while, but then I realized I rarely wanted to spend 6 mana to resurrect a single creature, never mind kicking it multiple times.
So... do you want a 4-mana anthem?
Doing two things poorly is rarely the recipe for a good card, but it can be great in the right niche.
I absolutely love this card. I would gladly pay 6 mana to resurrect my Sun Titan, since that's what I'd pay for the Titan in the first place.
This is one card in hand, that equals multiple creatures on the field. It is like having CA in white, and excellent recovery to use when your hand runs low.
This is a card I have considered often, but I don't recall ever actually running it in a deck. It's potentially good, despite the somewhat awkward mana requirements, so I expect I will get around to trying it out sometime.
It's mildly antagonistic (since reanimator is a go-tall strategy, but anthems are go-wide). That said, I have a rule that if an anthem doesn't do at least +2/+2, it has to do something else, and this can rez utility creatures, or something like Verdant Force or Hornet Queen, so that's something. Or, you know...
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I've played it here and there. Rarely ends up being a "mass" resurrection, but almost any deck that wants anthems probably ends up having creatures it doesn't mind picking back up from the dead while at it. Less of a game-ender, more of a piece of an incremental snowball of doom.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
Yes, they'd only need to pay UG to counter Determined, but they'd need 3BG to counter Bound if you had cast that one instead.
You can counter the original Hunting pack, because it was cast, but none of the others because it won't trigger for them.
Yes, Shusher can make your spell uncounterable. Ice cave's ability will then resolve and no one is going to try and pay for it to counter an uncounterable spell.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
Stopping people from drawing new threats after you drop Zur's Wierding means paying 2 life.
Yeah, it's symmetrical, but somebody playing Ice Cave is likely running a bunch of uncounterable spells or difficult mana costs, and the Wierding player is likely replacing their draws (Tomorrow, Abundance, Words of X, etc.), drawing too many cards to be worth paying the life for, or else simply has more life than their opponents.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
That "you control" is the operative phrase here. If you can keep your spells from being countered, Ice Cave is insane.
This card got a huge boost from OGW saying that off-color mana is still colored, which makes sense because EDH didn't even exist when the card was printed. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
On phasing:
So you know how Time Vault was reasonable, but then the game changed and it was busted in half, became briefly worse from functional errata, and then they reverted it to busted? This card did the opposite. It started out reasonable because tapped blockers dealt no damage, then they changed that rule and it became trash, then the errata'd it to prevent the damage, and then the moved away from functional errata and changed it back.
So challenge mode: anyone who can make the ability do something useful or interesting gets 1 free loyalty on their next planeswalker. Just tell your playgroup it's from me, I'm good for it, I promise.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Still not worth ever playing Master of Arms in EDH.
well, the casting cost makes it trickier to cast (2ww instead of 3w). Aside from that, i don't see anything else that separates them. [/quote]
I mean I know WHY, the question was rhetorical in mentioning this one is strictly worse than the others because of it's cmc.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Sure. If by "reasonable" you mean "bad on its own" and by "then the game changed and it was busted in half" you mean "busted in half with two additional cards, later one additional card". And by "briefly worse" you mean "as bad as it is on its own".
It's comparable to Lion's Eye Diamond in a lot of ways, which is also bad on its own but busted in half with the right cards.
I was actually thinking of Ice Cave, which was bad in EDH but became reasonable after OGW changed the rules on off-color mana.
They need to put more Weatherlight crew members in EDH product. We already have Mirri.
On phasing:
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Powerful and versatile card: reanimation, mass reanimation, and an anthem all in one. Making a deck that cares about all of these options is tricky though, as going wide, having big mana, and having single reanimation targets worth targeting is a lot to balance.
I think there are some deck choices that make this stronger. Stuff like Captain of the Watch or Angel of Invention like both the anthem and the rez.
Realistically, you're probably not going to rez more than 2 or 3 creatures with this card; you probably don't need that many favourable targets in a deck that goes wide-ish for it to be worthwhile.
Alternatively, if you're in a deck that ramps a ton (Karametra, God of Harvests comes to mind), just using it as a mass reanimation is kind of plausible; the +1/+1 doesn't matter so much as getting a lot of (presumably) big guys into play.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
Getting a Siege-Gang would be the motherload.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s cost is appropriate, just for what you are getting out of it isn’t worth it.
Though, the Karametra, God of Harvests deck does sound pretty sweet for this, and something I hadn’t really thought of. GWX reanimation here I come!(No B tho).
So... do you want a 4-mana anthem?
Doing two things poorly is rarely the recipe for a good card, but it can be great in the right niche.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
This is one card in hand, that equals multiple creatures on the field. It is like having CA in white, and excellent recovery to use when your hand runs low.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
On phasing:
Depending on what serves your purposes better, this can either say "target creature is almost unblockable" or "target creature can't block".