On the plus side, in a rarity for a "fixed" Timetwister, it doesn't exile itself. On the other hand, it exiles big chunks of your library, meaning one of 'Twister's strongest attributes, looping your deck, still can't be done, and you run the risk of taking out key cards from your deck even when being used simply as a one shot effect. As such, while I don't think it's actually a bad card, I'm not really ever going to be looking at this card - the times when I want this effect, I don't want the drawback.
Frankly, Time Spiral is the only 'Twister I actually run. The others either have significant negative effects like this exiling your cards, or Day's Undoing ending the turn and thus letting your opponents benefit form the fresh cards first, or they just cost too much to really take advantage of.
I thought I would never see this card again. When this was first printed, I know of only one guy who ever tried to play it. I don't even remember what his wincon was. All I can really remember about the deck, exudes this card, is I think he played Force of Will with it. In EDH, I would be less sure to play this. Thinning your deck? Digging for answers? There are better cards.
Out of all the cards in Magic's history, I would think this one is probably the one that literally begs people to cheat and stack the top ten cards in their favor.
I'm surprised this card garners so little respect. Sure, it's notas good as twister or wheel, but those cards are kinda broken (in certain contexts). 1 more mana doesn't make it terrible, and the exile is essentially irrelevant for most decks. It's a totally respectable wheel for decks that want that sort of thing.
The main reason I assume you don't see it much is that wheels kinda suck for most commanders. Refilling enemy hands is dangerous, and blue has good non-symmetrical draw it can use instead, unless it has some specific reason to want to fill enemy hands, like nekusar.
In terms of wheels, though, it's easily top 10 material, but that still leaves it as a niche card imo.
My initial reaction when I pulled this card in Eternal Masters was "Wow this looks like a fixed Time Spiral!". Then I read the card again. 10 out of 99 is quite a large chunk imo..
I'm also surprised by the negativity surrounding Diminishing Returns. This card is strong. It's a 4cmc wheel, and the 10-card exile is only relevant if you're reliant on specific cards to win. Wheel effects are very strong in the right decks, and this should be no different.
The "up to 7" clause makes it suck for Nekusar, ditto because its not a true wheel (they don't discard). It is, however, still a twister, and so long as you aren't looking for a specific card its still great. Its 4 for a draw 7 if you're at 0 cards. I'd run this before Days Undoing, ending the turn and not getting to cast that full grip is a much larger drawback than exiling the top 10 cards of your library and costing one more U, with the exception being when you are playing 30counters.dec and you are drawing specifically to have counter magic up on your opponents turns.
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I dunno, I'd consider Wheel of Fortune (always draws seven and fills 'yard), Time Spiral (free! and possibly actually generates mana in the right deck), Timetwister (the CMC is right), Windfall (very powerful in the right deck and discards as well as draws), Memory Jar (colorless, loopable, and mostly just mills opponents but can draw you gas), Molten Psyche (only really good with lots of rocks, but still good), Reforge the Soul (wheel is worth 5 to me and sometimes you get a steal), Whispering Madness (I'd pay four for Windfall, and sometimes you get to repeat this), Dark Deal (slightly worse Windfall - still good!) and Winds of Change (don't love it but can't argue with one mana) as all superior to this in terms of "wheel" effects for a typical Arjun/Nekusaur build. Certainly Dimishing Returns gets the HM slot, and may outstrip winds, although I'd say competition is tight as Chandra Ablaze and Jace's Archivist are in the conversation.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
The "up to 7" clause makes it suck for Nekusar, ditto because its not a true wheel (they don't discard). It is, however, still a twister, and so long as you aren't looking for a specific card its still great. Its 4 for a draw 7 if you're at 0 cards. I'd run this before Days Undoing, ending the turn and not getting to cast that full grip is a much larger drawback than exiling the top 10 cards of your library and costing one more U, with the exception being when you are playing 30counters.dec and you are drawing specifically to have counter magic up on your opponents turns.
Yes, but "all my opponents in topdeck mode" isn't exactly something I'm complaining about, even in Nekusar. LOL
I'd say if you're not playing combo, this is arguably the cheapest way to remove combo players from the game. Not entirely reliable, but still...
I'd say it's a Hidden Gem, just as a combo hoser, but the question is, how many wheels do you need?
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't think it's an autoinclude, especially if you're willing to invest in the expensive but really good ramp cards like Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond etc, but it's still a solid card that will find a slot in many green decks - at CMC3 it's still within the affordable mana range for ramp, and does provide card advantage. Particularly nice for CMC5 commanders, as casting it T3 ensures you can follow it up with your general next turn.
This honestly isn't the fastest or most explosive of ramp options which is why it isn't an autoinclude, but it makes up for it by being reliable in how it can simultaneously help ensure land drops.
cultivate is the sort of thing that defines 75% edh but isn't particularly amazing or anything. It's just solid. Personally I think I prefer 2-mana ramp over 3 mana, even with an upside, though cultivate is definitely on the higher end of upsides.
I dunno, I'd consider Wheel of Fortune (always draws seven and fills 'yard), Time Spiral (free! and possibly actually generates mana in the right deck), Timetwister (the CMC is right), Windfall (very powerful in the right deck and discards as well as draws), Memory Jar (colorless, loopable, and mostly just mills opponents but can draw you gas), Molten Psyche (only really good with lots of rocks, but still good), Reforge the Soul (wheel is worth 5 to me and sometimes you get a steal), Whispering Madness (I'd pay four for Windfall, and sometimes you get to repeat this), Dark Deal (slightly worse Windfall - still good!) and Winds of Change (don't love it but can't argue with one mana) as all superior to this in terms of "wheel" effects for a typical Arjun/Nekusaur build. Certainly Dimishing Returns gets the HM slot, and may outstrip winds, although I'd say competition is tight as Chandra Ablaze and Jace's Archivist are in the conversation.
Can't say I agree with many of those. Windfall can be occasionally temperamental, although it's still probably better overall, but cards like molten psyche (which is a 3 mana winds of change if you don't have metalcraft) and dark deal (which is an un-glorified 3 mana winds of change) looks like trash compared to diminishing returns imo.
To me it's absolutely nuts that time reversal has 10x as many hits as diminishing returns given that it's basically the same thing but for 1 less mana (and the parts of nekusar are very interchangeable so the risk of exiling some crucial piece you were going to tutor for is basically nil). I didn't notice the "up to 7" which is an interesting downside for a nekusar deck. I doubt you can be too sad if your opponents elect not to draw cards, though.
Aces. The only green decks I don’t use it in are HEAVILY permanent-based (enchantress and Multani group hug), and I’m not convinced that’s the right choice.
This is probably a card I overplay as I think all my green decks are currently running this. That makes sense for hand-hungry Multani and mana-greedy Gitrog and Gahiji but makes less sense for Doran (who really wants to spend his third turn casting Doran and has a curve topping out at 6) and for my wife's Jenara and especially Mirri decks (Jenara is mana-hungry, but Mirri is not).
It's hard to say this card is too overrated though; it is among the best ramp spells in the game for a green deck.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I've always considered Cultivate/Kodama's Reach to be slightly overrated as far as ramp spells go. They strike me as very "battlecruiser-y" in the sense that they're generic good-stuff for decks that don't have a real plan for the way in which they want to ramp. Most ramp decks I build have a specific plan for what turn they want what mana on.
For example, a "safe" land ramp strategy would much prefer to curve Nature's Lore (etc.) into a Explosive Vegetation (etc). Elf decks want to chain a dork into something like Wood Elves. Explosive decks that want to get to 6 mana by turn 3 probably want to curve a dork into Worn Powerstone or Overgrowth or something.
Anyway, I don't think these are "bad" cards or anything. They're pretty good if you're playing a mid-range battlecruiser deck that doesn't have a real plan for the early game. They're ok for multi-color decks that don't have the ability to drop thousands of dollars on a land base. I just certainly don't think they deserve the label of "staple" or "belong in every green deck."
There are definitely decks where you want to restrict the number of ramp spells, but I think this and Reach are the best ramp spells - early enough that I don't mind taking a turn off to ramp, and Card Advantage enough that it's not terrible in the mid game. Farseek is great on turn two and bad the rest of the time. Explosive Vegetation is fine but on Turn 4 there are other things I should be doing.
Stifle (and similar effects) seem to get the most praise in more competitive contexts where you can blow someone out of their fetchland, but you'd be hard pressed to find an opponent you can't blow out with this card.
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I dig it. Most combos can be stopped, at least temporarily, with stifle, and it's hilarious to counter a pw ult. Nearly any deck is going to have some quality target to hit, and stifle often lets you move later than a counterspell (a favorite example being mindslaver - with a counterspell you have to decide immediately if it's worth countering, but with stifle you can wait to see if it's targeting you or someone else). Plus it's easy to leave up.
Hitting a fetchland (outside of 1v1) seems like a total waste though.
Anyway, Stifle is funny against fetchlands, but it can also stop a lot of engines. The most epic use I've ever seen for it was countering a storm trigger.
I also like Bind, just because it's unexpected. Can't counter triggers, though.
Note that Stifle and variants thereof cannot counter turning morphs face up; they can, however, counter the trigger. (Except, again, Bind.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
This feels too narrow for my tastes, but maybe that's because my meta is a little bit slower and more battle-cruisery. I imagine its power is directly proportional to the power of your meta; for me countering an equip activation or fetchland or something isn't worth the deck slot. MaybeI am being unfair and should try it out though - could be that, like Split Second cards, I will be surprised at how often it is relevant.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
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Frankly, Time Spiral is the only 'Twister I actually run. The others either have significant negative effects like this exiling your cards, or Day's Undoing ending the turn and thus letting your opponents benefit form the fresh cards first, or they just cost too much to really take advantage of.
The main reason I assume you don't see it much is that wheels kinda suck for most commanders. Refilling enemy hands is dangerous, and blue has good non-symmetrical draw it can use instead, unless it has some specific reason to want to fill enemy hands, like nekusar.
In terms of wheels, though, it's easily top 10 material, but that still leaves it as a niche card imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
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Modern:
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Players choose to draw any number of cards from 0 to 7.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Yes, but "all my opponents in topdeck mode" isn't exactly something I'm complaining about, even in Nekusar. LOL
I'd say if you're not playing combo, this is arguably the cheapest way to remove combo players from the game. Not entirely reliable, but still...
I'd say it's a Hidden Gem, just as a combo hoser, but the question is, how many wheels do you need?
On phasing:
A format staple, it's ramp and card advantage at the right price.
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To me it's absolutely nuts that time reversal has 10x as many hits as diminishing returns given that it's basically the same thing but for 1 less mana (and the parts of nekusar are very interchangeable so the risk of exiling some crucial piece you were going to tutor for is basically nil). I didn't notice the "up to 7" which is an interesting downside for a nekusar deck. I doubt you can be too sad if your opponents elect not to draw cards, though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Eh, one day you'll be gotten by Hisoka's Defiance and you'll see the light.
It's hard to say this card is too overrated though; it is among the best ramp spells in the game for a green deck.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
For example, a "safe" land ramp strategy would much prefer to curve Nature's Lore (etc.) into a Explosive Vegetation (etc). Elf decks want to chain a dork into something like Wood Elves. Explosive decks that want to get to 6 mana by turn 3 probably want to curve a dork into Worn Powerstone or Overgrowth or something.
Anyway, I don't think these are "bad" cards or anything. They're pretty good if you're playing a mid-range battlecruiser deck that doesn't have a real plan for the early game. They're ok for multi-color decks that don't have the ability to drop thousands of dollars on a land base. I just certainly don't think they deserve the label of "staple" or "belong in every green deck."
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Stifle (and similar effects) seem to get the most praise in more competitive contexts where you can blow someone out of their fetchland, but you'd be hard pressed to find an opponent you can't blow out with this card.
Hitting a fetchland (outside of 1v1) seems like a total waste though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Hermit Druid
Anyway, Stifle is funny against fetchlands, but it can also stop a lot of engines. The most epic use I've ever seen for it was countering a storm trigger.
I also like Bind, just because it's unexpected. Can't counter triggers, though.
Note that Stifle and variants thereof cannot counter turning morphs face up; they can, however, counter the trigger. (Except, again, Bind.)
On phasing:
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG