Like the how the dark spots at the bottom of the left Tower sort of look like a skull, or at least the nose and eye sockets. Also the dig the decorative gears.
What number of counters do people usually keep this on?
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ok, normally I'd just skip over a card like this without saying anything (2/2 maybe first strike with a downside for 3, even has the "not a goblin" typing, not really edh material here) but that rules text caught me off gaurd. An orc is exactly the kind of fantasy character that would talk in the 3rd person (read "Hulk Smash") but here they title of the card is entirely absent from the original rules text. Just "Cannot be assigned to block..." and "First strike until..." It's like an inverted trope and I laughed at that.
But since you people probably want discussion value, have a Nezumi Graverobber instead.
Sorry for backtracking, I am just wondering: Have you in the past intentionally skip "non-vanilla" cards base on how much discussion value you see in them?
For all that I love Stax, I'm not actually that convinced of the iconic Smokestack's effectiveness in EDH. From my experience of playing it, it's too dependent on getting it down early especially as it doesn't do anything on the turn you play it. If you can drop it turn 3 or earlier, it can be devastating. Turn 4 it's OK but nothing special. Turn 5 it's pretty poor. After that, it's basically a dead card.
Sorry for backtracking, I am just wondering: Have you in the past intentionally skip "non-vanilla" cards base on how much discussion value you see in them?
Yeah. Except for cards that are iconic for some other reason, I've been skipping over vanilla and most french vanilla creatures. That orc is double strictly worse than a 2/2 first strike for 3.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I love smokestack, but I cut it from my Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck since it was too slow. I miss Braids, cabal minion. Smokestack would usually sit at 2 in my deck, but sometimes went up to 4 if I had Reveillark, Sun Titan, or other on-board recursion. Not impacting the board immediately, then taking a few turns before it started doing more than making an opponent sac a random creature... these are the reasons why I cut it. Martyr's bond is easier to abuse in the deck and can be cheated into play by Academy Rector.
The only time that Smokestack actually worked for me was when I was able to cast it before T4. If I cast it afterwards it never survives a full turn cycle. Iconic, but slow in EDH nowadays.
The only time that Smokestack actually worked for me was when I was able to cast it before T4. If I cast it afterwards it never survives a full turn cycle. Iconic, but slow in EDH nowadays.
The only time it works if it comes down late is if you already have your opponents mostly locked in some way, so it usually ends up being a win more. It's absolutely brutal early though. Turn 2 off a ring will usually do it. Just park it at 1 counter.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Obligatory art note: I never knew what those gears were doing. I know we're nerds and therefore shouldn't know anything about industry (There's a political joke there. Just so you know, I'm a Democrat, and I was making fun of other Democrats.) but still...
I'd argue that Stax as an archetype (control decks involving symmetrical-but-not-really resource denial) existed before Smokestack. Stompy used Winter Orb, White Weenie used Meekstone and Armageddon, and a ton of monoblack decks used The Abyss.
Just like how one bar does not make for an effective cell, no single Stax card is going to get you there, and even combinations of Stax cards are more a meta choice. Like, Smokestack is great in Ghave because it provides a sac outlet; I actually don't have much problem with just adding a counter or two every turn almost automatically. Even then, I find Grave Pact and friends (except Savra, Queen of the Golgari because my black tokens are activated abilities or triggered abilities you can't reasonably expect to trigger more than once per turn) and Aura Shards more useful, especially Aura Shards and Martyr's Bond paired with Mycosynth Lattice. Rule of Law and Grand Abolisher (or Dragonlord Dromoka) provide an effective way to slow the game down. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite keeps opponents from playing a lot of tokens to get around all this forced discard. But if I'm doing a tap-down deck like Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, opponents will just sacrifice what I tap. Also, never forget that you also need targeted removal and wipes for when things don't go as planned, because even your answers have answers in this game.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Sorry for backtracking, I am just wondering: Have you in the past intentionally skip "non-vanilla" cards base on how much discussion value you see in them?
Yeah. Except for cards that are iconic for some other reason, I've been skipping over vanilla and most french vanilla creatures. That orc is double strictly worse than a 2/2 first strike for 3.
This is one of those weird old cards that I think has a drawback that just stops people from playing it, despite it being very powerful. It's not even necessarily strictly worse-than Temporal Adept, as the cost to cast and activate here is MUCH more palatable in a 2+ color deck than the UUU that the adept demands AND this card can actually get empowered by Training Grounds.
My Mairsil deck is probably on the way to dismantle-ville, but if it wasn't I'd seek this out. I have fond memories of it from Duels of the Planeswalkers and it seems a shame it only sees play in like 78 decks on EDHRecs. Seems like folks are running this mostly in Chromium "old-school magic Commander" and Horde of Notions, but I think it could be uniquely great in a variety of lists especially ones already using Training Grounds or that care about messing with hands (So most Wheel decks).
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I see so much potential with this card it's not even funny. I agree with Hawk, it's a damn shame it isn't played more(or perhaps it's to our benefit, lol). I only ever considered using it for PW resets or wrath saves, but that's just the beginning for this little bug...
It can do a lot, but its fairly mana intensive. The unenchanted restriction is a much bigger drawback than the rando 5 damage clause because it makes it weak against voltron, the archetype that it should be best at. The proliferation of ETB creatures in this format makes returning a single creature often a benefit to the opponent, and while you can use it on your own creatures your better off blinking, as with this you are paying 4 in addition to the casting cost. Of course, it doesn't just effect creatures, but resets any permanent, which helps walkers, artifacts, enchantments, and lands. In U/G, its not unreasonable to dream of returning the Cradle you tapped for mana then playing it again. There are shenanigans to be had, and you can keep a player off his or her mana by repeatedly targeting a land, but I think its just a bit too vulnerable to removal and a bit too expensive to both cast and activate to be good. If this was an enchantment it would be better with these costs, and a 3 mana activation might be enough to sway me if it stays a creature, but as it is I haven't even stuck it in untap focused decks. Perhaps I should.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yep, Onering hit this one right on the nail. As expensive as this card is, it's worth noting that this can whack enchantments and tokens. Got Marit Lage on the field? Not for long. Someone has a hold of your creature? You can have him/her/it/Gonzo back. Someone bolts the poor thing? That's alright, recall it.
The drawback being a creature is HUGE on this one and the mana costs are steep. This card has long been overshadowed by Boomerang. But if you really need a repeatable boomerang, I would definitely eyeball this one. Certainly not the best, but I think it's more viable today than Boomerang is.
'tis a good card back in the day, and it still can hold its own these days too i think.
Haven't run it in any decks recently though - I'm not sure it even fits in my 5c control deck. i do recall cutting this to make room for tradewind rider though, since mana is generally more important to me than anything else.
The cost and activation is my main issue with the card, but TE is a very versatile bounce without the infamous nonland restriction, and in few cases would non-enchanted be an issue.
My brother had a 60-card kitchen table deck featuring Time Elemental and I remember fearing that deck (and that card). This is a powerful effect and this card could see play in the right decks.
The fact that it hits any permanent with no auras attached to it (provided they don't have shroud, hexproof, pro-blue, pro-creatures) can be quite powerful. Oh, what's that, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir? You say I can't counter things? I say you need a personal study in older time magic. Oh, Rule of Law blanking my High Tide, Snapcaster Mage, Mind's Desire...? All I can say to that is OBJECTION! Smokestack? How about you go back to no counters. Winter Orb? I'll deal with you, but not before the due to my right starts his turn. (You can even do this with your own Winter Orb, though it's easier to just play Clock of Omens.) Blood Moon? You had to move out of that alignment some time.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Yeah, my Brago deck of mostly common and uncommon ETB permanents loved Cloudblazer.
I'm just gonna draw three cards on every one of my turns, maybe gain some life, you guys keep playing tho.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
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What number of counters do people usually keep this on?
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Sorry for backtracking, I am just wondering: Have you in the past intentionally skip "non-vanilla" cards base on how much discussion value you see in them?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Yeah. Except for cards that are iconic for some other reason, I've been skipping over vanilla and most french vanilla creatures. That orc is double strictly worse than a 2/2 first strike for 3.
I think I will be considering it again for Muldrotha, the gravetide.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
The only time it works if it comes down late is if you already have your opponents mostly locked in some way, so it usually ends up being a win more. It's absolutely brutal early though. Turn 2 off a ring will usually do it. Just park it at 1 counter.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'd argue that Stax as an archetype (control decks involving symmetrical-but-not-really resource denial) existed before Smokestack. Stompy used Winter Orb, White Weenie used Meekstone and Armageddon, and a ton of monoblack decks used The Abyss.
Just like how one bar does not make for an effective cell, no single Stax card is going to get you there, and even combinations of Stax cards are more a meta choice. Like, Smokestack is great in Ghave because it provides a sac outlet; I actually don't have much problem with just adding a counter or two every turn almost automatically. Even then, I find Grave Pact and friends (except Savra, Queen of the Golgari because my black tokens are activated abilities or triggered abilities you can't reasonably expect to trigger more than once per turn) and Aura Shards more useful, especially Aura Shards and Martyr's Bond paired with Mycosynth Lattice. Rule of Law and Grand Abolisher (or Dragonlord Dromoka) provide an effective way to slow the game down. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite keeps opponents from playing a lot of tokens to get around all this forced discard. But if I'm doing a tap-down deck like Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, opponents will just sacrifice what I tap. Also, never forget that you also need targeted removal and wipes for when things don't go as planned, because even your answers have answers in this game.
On phasing:
I'll take downsides I don't care about for 400. I'm not attacking or blocking with my boomerang machine any time soon.
I, for one, have no problem with this.
My Mairsil deck is probably on the way to dismantle-ville, but if it wasn't I'd seek this out. I have fond memories of it from Duels of the Planeswalkers and it seems a shame it only sees play in like 78 decks on EDHRecs. Seems like folks are running this mostly in Chromium "old-school magic Commander" and Horde of Notions, but I think it could be uniquely great in a variety of lists especially ones already using Training Grounds or that care about messing with hands (So most Wheel decks).
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The drawback being a creature is HUGE on this one and the mana costs are steep. This card has long been overshadowed by Boomerang. But if you really need a repeatable boomerang, I would definitely eyeball this one. Certainly not the best, but I think it's more viable today than Boomerang is.
Haven't run it in any decks recently though - I'm not sure it even fits in my 5c control deck. i do recall cutting this to make room for tradewind rider though, since mana is generally more important to me than anything else.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsOr you can reuse your own ETB triggers.
Illusionist's Bracers lets you double its uses, and Training Grounds makes it a lot more affordable.
On phasing:
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Still, it's a classic card and super cool.
It says draw 2, the rest doesn't matter.
Totally agreed. Great for Roon of the Hidden Realm, great for Brago, King Eternal, or any other blink decks.
I'm just gonna draw three cards on every one of my turns, maybe gain some life, you guys keep playing tho.
Art is life itself.