Reading over the massive backlash against Un-cards in Commander, it seems like almost every concern could be solved with a fairly conservative banlist. There are plenty of silver-border cards that would legitimately be really fun in silver border, but at the current rate, there's little to no chance that they are legalized on any permanent basis, unless the fun-ruiners are quickly banned. So, I've drawn up a rough banlist of the cards that are either absurdly powerful, or break a meta-rule, to hopefully lead to a healthier format without completely throwing out all the interesting new cards.
"Your cards can't be physically messed with" is a pretty bad meta-rule to violate, so all these are out. Collector Protector breaks a similar meta-rule about ownership.
This is probably the most debatable section, but this seems like a reasonable starting banlist for competitive play.
Besides these offenders, does anyone actually have a problem with the rest of the Un-cards? I can understand the hate for having to deal with cards like Nerf War, but does anyone object to Grusilda or Contraptions being a thing?
This looks pretty good, but I question a few of the choices:
1) Ol' Buzzbark is one of the legendary creatures, and is probably the best choice for a dice-rolling commander. I'd agree with you if he were a common or something, but as one of the marquee potential commanders he seems a sketchy ban. 2) What's wrong with Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil? Panglacial Wurm even means that it's probably not actually too far outside of the rules, and I don't think there's any powerlevel concerns.
3) Okay, I might be missing something big here, but why Magical Hacker? It's on the RC's list, but I don't see why. It's strong, yes, but not that strong.
4) Rare-B-Gone is super duper powerful, but I think that things like Ruination and Blood Moon play into the same space -- punishing people who spent a lot of money on their decks. Given that rares aren't always even the best option for all decks, this seems strong but not inherently overpowered.
5) Again, why Ineffable Blessing and More or Less? The first especially -- yes, it's crazy with tokens, but I'm not sure I'm convinced it's more powerful than, say, Sylvan Library or Glimpse of Nature -- or that it's so much more powerful that it needs to be banned.
6) I totally understand why Staying Power is here, but I will say it's extremely disappointing Why this but not, say, Topsy Turvy or Rules Lawyer?
This looks like a good starting point -- I mostly question Infernal Spawn banning.
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Magical Hacker goes infinite with various things that put -1/-1 counters on themselves as a cost. (Devoted Druid is the well-known one and gives you infinite mana to go with your infinite P/T, but Barrenton Medic and Cinderhaze Wretch also work, as does Sinking Feeling on a mana dork.)
These are very "easy" two-card combos so that could be the reason for the ban, but I don't know if there's something else. More or Less also works with Druid, though less so the rest since putting infinitely many -0/-0 counters on your creatures isn't all that useful.
I also agree Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn seems fine. I guess the problem is that you have to show the card every single time because you might have drawn it in the meantime?
I feel like a lot of the stuff on the power level list is not that bad. Rare-B-Gone leaving basics alone makes it less frustrating than Decree of Annihilation, albeit it's also much cheaper and easier to ensure you get to keep a threat in play. Ineffable Blessing is an overpowered draw engine, but there are lots of those in EDH. (Is it actually crazier with tokens than Skullclamp?) Mise requires at least a token amount of work to be an Ancestral Recall (unless you mise, of course) and again doesn't really seem that much more offensive than already-legal cards. It's amusing that Necro-Impotence is often better than Necropotence, but is it so much better that it needs a ban while the latter is legal?
You missed other multi-Game cards like Gus and Ghazbán Ogress. You also missed card damage cards (I'd call them card contact cards) like Goblin Sleigh Ride and (to a certain extent) Cramped Bunker. I'd also include The Countdown Is at One for the time constraint because trolls could very easily copy that spell multiple times. Although you provide a banlist, I retort with banning any card not on the following list:
I'd shy away from even more cards than you do. I'd shy away from all cards that mention anything from a card that isn't in Oracle like the artist, art, flavor text, watermark, rarity, collector number, expansion symbol, etc. because those things are different depending on the reprint you have of the card. It'd be best to not play with cards that don't directly break a rule. For example, these cards break the aspect that all cards with the same name are the same regardless of the expansion. That's something pretty major. I'd also avoid playing with cards that contain non-whole numbers like fractions, pi, and infinity.
This looks pretty good, but I question a few of the choices:
1) Ol' Buzzbark is one of the legendary creatures, and is probably the best choice for a dice-rolling commander. I'd agree with you if he were a common or something, but as one of the marquee potential commanders he seems a sketchy ban. 2) What's wrong with Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil? Panglacial Wurm even means that it's probably not actually too far outside of the rules, and I don't think there's any powerlevel concerns.
3) Okay, I might be missing something big here, but why Magical Hacker? It's on the RC's list, but I don't see why. It's strong, yes, but not that strong.
4) Rare-B-Gone is super duper powerful, but I think that things like Ruination and Blood Moon play into the same space -- punishing people who spent a lot of money on their decks. Given that rares aren't always even the best option for all decks, this seems strong but not inherently overpowered.
5) Again, why Ineffable Blessing and More or Less? The first especially -- yes, it's crazy with tokens, but I'm not sure I'm convinced it's more powerful than, say, Sylvan Library or Glimpse of Nature -- or that it's so much more powerful that it needs to be banned.
6) I totally understand why Staying Power is here, but I will say it's extremely disappointing Why this but not, say, Topsy Turvy or Rules Lawyer?
This looks like a good starting point -- I mostly question Infernal Spawn banning.
I'll give my own opinion/remarks on some of your points.
1) Ol' Buzzbark has you dropping dice from a substantial height onto cards. The corners of the dice could very easily damage cards on the table. It should be avoided. If you wanna roll dice with a commander use The Big Idea as your general.
2) I agree with Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil. No doubt it was the inspiration for Panglacial Wurm just as Infernal Spawn of Evil was the inspiration for the forecast mechanic.
3) Magical Hacker means that I can pay U and ultimate any planeswalker I have in play. Or making Toxic Deluge a Hatred for my entire board for 2BU. Etc.
4) Rare-B-Gone depends on the set in which a card was printed so it shouldn't be included for the reason I stated above quoting your post. Some reprints change rarity and cards are supposed to be considered the same exact card regardless of which set it was printed in. Rare-B-Gone is one of those cards that ignores that very important rule.
5) Ineffable Blessing counts things that aren't the same for all cards of the same name. Some reprints have flavor text whereas other versions of the same card don't. It should therefore be excluded. More or Less causes problems by making a lot of costs become 0. That is ridiculously dangerous and broken.
6) Topsy Turvy is beyond annoying and mindwracking. The rules nightmare are Elm Street levels. Rules Lawyer isn't anymore broken than cards like Phyrexian Unlife or Platinum Angel. It's not that difficult to work around and very easy to remove.
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Referring to stuff that isn't in Oracle is one of the main un-mechanics, it seems pretty weird to say uncards are allowed but that isn't.
I guess I get it when it's in relation to your opponent's cards because the incentives get weird if you want to make your deck resistant to Persecute Artist (though tbh I didn't need a reason to play as many Rebecca Guay cards as possible) but like, building your deck to maximize Ineffable Blessing sounds like a fun thing to do.
At the very least, the cards that refer to Unstable-specific watermarks seem to me to break that rule in only the most technical sense. Steamflogger Boss is the only card that's been printed both with and without an Unstable watermark, and it is highly unlikely that any Unstable card will ever be reprinted, so there isn't any actual danger of "oh no it matters which version I buy now" with those. (Except Steamflogger Boss, but buying the non-futureshifted version of any card is always the objectively correct decision anyway.)
I'm actually disappointed normal magic doesn't play with watermarks, collectors numbers, art, foils, etc on cards that aren't pushed. It opens up cool options for constructing decks. I could understand if you had to buy a certain version for the hot standard deck, but doing it in conspiracy, commander, etc. where they're only eternal legal should make it easy to cost them so they don't break into top teir decks but can be fun for casual.
I don't see how fractions matter that much especially in commander anyway though. Are there even playable fraction cards for the format? Infinity elemental, outside of a combo piece is also just a red Phage the untouchable and I never see the.card anyway. I like it since I'm the tummies Timmy around but I doubt its all that good or anything.
If we're banning Magical Hacker and More or Less, then we should probably get rid of Look at me, I'm R&D as well considering that enables shenanigans for ages.
In terms of cards that require dexterity, I think we can allow the ones that only affect you (such as Standing Army), but I'd perhaps shy away from forcing your opponents from doing things against their will (like Side to side).
I'm a bit on the fence with cards that check for expansion symbols, flavour text or watermarks, but I think as long as a similar philosophy is set up to not ruin or spite your opponents for not running specific printings of cards, then why not?
Is Gleemax not worth banning for power reasons? There are a lot of ways you can cheat it onto the battlefield and it can really mess up the game for everyone.
You can also add Deadhead to the collusion list because that's potentially a repeatable creature to sacrifice or have enter/leave the battlefield.
If we're banning Magical Hacker and More or Less, then we should probably get rid of Look at me, I'm R&D as well considering that enables shenanigans for ages.
In terms of cards that require dexterity, I think we can allow the ones that only affect you (such as Standing Army), but I'd perhaps shy away from forcing your opponents from doing things against their will (like Side to side).
I'm a bit on the fence with cards that check for expansion symbols, flavour text or watermarks, but I think as long as a similar philosophy is set up to not ruin or spite your opponents for not running specific printings of cards, then why not?
Is Gleemax not worth banning for power reasons? There are a lot of ways you can cheat it onto the battlefield and it can really mess up the game for everyone.
You can also add Deadhead to the collusion list because that's potentially a repeatable creature to sacrifice or have enter/leave the battlefield.
Well, as you just said, Gleemax needs to be cheated into play. In order to hardcast it, you'd basically have to be producing close to infinite mana to cast it. With infinite mana you could easily just win the game, something that Gleemax doesn't do outright. Its controller may choose targets as he/she wants, but global spells will get rid of Gleemax - and there're plenty of those.
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Gleemax seems fine as a black bordered 7 mana artifact. Yes the effect is annoying but when you think about it, is it really that good? Sure it forces a board wipe to get rid of it but basically all it hoses in commander is targeted removal and targeted card draw. I doubt anyone would even play it anymore than grafdiggers cage or any other random Houser card.
I feel like a lot of the stuff on the power level list is not that bad.
To me at least, the main question is whether the format is fun on a permanent basis with a banlist similar to this, more than whether some of this banlist is unnecessary. I'm no pro, so perhaps More or Less, Ineffable Blessing, Necro-Impotence, Mise, and Rare-B-Gone wouldn't wreck CompEDH, but it would probably build more goodwill to ban more things at first and let things off slowly than risk a totally broken format that makes everyone hate Un-cards as a whole.
I'd shy away from even more cards than you do. I'd shy away from all cards that mention anything from a card that isn't in Oracle like the artist, art, flavor text, watermark, rarity, collector number, expansion symbol, etc. because those things are different depending on the reprint you have of the card. It'd be best to not play with cards that don't directly break a rule. For example, these cards break the aspect that all cards with the same name are the same regardless of the expansion. That's something pretty major. I'd also avoid playing with cards that contain non-whole numbers like fractions, pi, and infinity.
While I disagree, I think this is the crux of this discussion. How much would people object to Commander following the Un-rule that not all cards with the same name have to work identically? My personal opinion and understanding is that most people wouldn't mind, it wouldn't be all that competitively relevant, and it would open up a lot of creative decks. So, the only problem with Un-sets in Commander is a couple broken cards, easily bannable.
But you clearly disagree, and if the community is on your side, perhaps it's best not to legalize Un-sets after all, since the "individual cards matter" mechanic is fundamental to silver-border.
I feel like a lot of the stuff on the power level list is not that bad.
To me at least, the main question is whether the format is fun on a permanent basis with these bans, more than whether some of the banlist is unnecessary. I'm no pro, so perhaps More or Less, Ineffable Blessing, Necro-Impotence, Mise, and Rare-B-Gone wouldn't wreck CompEDH, but it would probably build more goodwill to ban more things at first and let things off slowly than risk a totally broken format that makes everyone hate Un-cards as a whole.
I'd shy away from even more cards than you do. I'd shy away from all cards that mention anything from a card that isn't in Oracle like the artist, art, flavor text, watermark, rarity, collector number, expansion symbol, etc. because those things are different depending on the reprint you have of the card. It'd be best to not play with cards that don't directly break a rule. For example, these cards break the aspect that all cards with the same name are the same regardless of the expansion. That's something pretty major. I'd also avoid playing with cards that contain non-whole numbers like fractions, pi, and infinity.
While I disagree, I think this is the crux of this discussion. How much would people object to Commander following the Un-rule that not all cards with the same name have to work identically? My personal opinion and understanding is that most people wouldn't mind, it wouldn't be all that competitively relevant, and it would open up a lot of creative decks. So, the only problem with Un-sets in Commander is a couple broken cards, easily bannable.
But you clearly disagree, and if the community is on your side, perhaps it's best not to legalize Un-sets after all, since the "individual cards matter" mechanic is fundamental to silver-border.
I think that's the best statement on the entire matter. I hope there's more goodwill in the future towards these cards. But maybe un-cards will be unbanned in a seasonal sense like it is now. That way people won't feel that it's going to be a thing. Maybe that'll work? Like Persephone in the Underworld, silver-bordered cards being legal (to a certain extent) not always is kind of an interesting thing.
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I think that's the best statement on the entire matter. I hope there's more goodwill in the future towards these cards. But maybe un-cards will be unbanned in a seasonal sense like it is now. That way people won't feel that it's going to be a thing. Maybe that'll work? Like Persephone in the Underworld, silver-bordered cards being legal (to a certain extent) not always is kind of an interesting thing.
Haha, yeah. The way I envision it, there would eventually be some silver-bordered additions to the banlist purely for power reasons, and then a separate list of "these cards are banned by default but they are legal with your playgroup's consent" for all the dexterity/collusion/multi-game cards that aren't actually too powerful, just not healthy mechanics to have in a public format. I just hope it doesn't go down where for 45 days, all the broken things ruin the format, everyone hates Un-cards, everyone hates Sheldon, and nobody ever allows silver border cards anywhere near the command zone ever again. That would make me very sad.
I think that's the best statement on the entire matter. I hope there's more goodwill in the future towards these cards. But maybe un-cards will be unbanned in a seasonal sense like it is now. That way people won't feel that it's going to be a thing. Maybe that'll work? Like Persephone in the Underworld, silver-bordered cards being legal (to a certain extent) not always is kind of an interesting thing.
Haha, yeah. The way I envision it, there would eventually be some silver-bordered additions to the banlist purely for power reasons, and then a separate list of "these cards are banned by default but they are legal with your playgroup's consent" for all the dexterity/collusion/multi-game cards that aren't actually too powerful, just not healthy mechanics to have in a public format. I just hope it doesn't go down where for 45 days, all the broken things ruin the format, everyone hates Un-cards, everyone hates Sheldon, and nobody ever allows silver border cards anywhere near the command zone ever again. That would make me very sad.
Very true. Hopefully more are banned along the way to prevent all-round hatred and a purge-type setting during these 45 days of anarchy.
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Card Damage
"Your cards can't be physically messed with" is a pretty bad meta-rule to violate, so all these are out. Collector Protector breaks a similar meta-rule about ownership.
Dexterity
These might be fine for a personal playgroup, but making physical demands of players is inappropriate for any tournament context.
Collusion
These all have the same problem as Trade Secrets.
Multi-Game Cards
These all break the meta-rule that Magic games occur independently from each other.
Time Concerns
These are various levels of ridiculous and don't belong in sanctioned play.
Power Level
This is probably the most debatable section, but this seems like a reasonable starting banlist for competitive play.
Besides these offenders, does anyone actually have a problem with the rest of the Un-cards? I can understand the hate for having to deal with cards like Nerf War, but does anyone object to Grusilda or Contraptions being a thing?
1) Ol' Buzzbark is one of the legendary creatures, and is probably the best choice for a dice-rolling commander. I'd agree with you if he were a common or something, but as one of the marquee potential commanders he seems a sketchy ban.
2) What's wrong with Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil? Panglacial Wurm even means that it's probably not actually too far outside of the rules, and I don't think there's any powerlevel concerns.
3) Okay, I might be missing something big here, but why Magical Hacker? It's on the RC's list, but I don't see why. It's strong, yes, but not that strong.
4) Rare-B-Gone is super duper powerful, but I think that things like Ruination and Blood Moon play into the same space -- punishing people who spent a lot of money on their decks. Given that rares aren't always even the best option for all decks, this seems strong but not inherently overpowered.
5) Again, why Ineffable Blessing and More or Less? The first especially -- yes, it's crazy with tokens, but I'm not sure I'm convinced it's more powerful than, say, Sylvan Library or Glimpse of Nature -- or that it's so much more powerful that it needs to be banned.
6) I totally understand why Staying Power is here, but I will say it's extremely disappointing Why this but not, say, Topsy Turvy or Rules Lawyer?
This looks like a good starting point -- I mostly question Infernal Spawn banning.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
These are very "easy" two-card combos so that could be the reason for the ban, but I don't know if there's something else. More or Less also works with Druid, though less so the rest since putting infinitely many -0/-0 counters on your creatures isn't all that useful.
I also agree Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn seems fine. I guess the problem is that you have to show the card every single time because you might have drawn it in the meantime?
I feel like a lot of the stuff on the power level list is not that bad. Rare-B-Gone leaving basics alone makes it less frustrating than Decree of Annihilation, albeit it's also much cheaper and easier to ensure you get to keep a threat in play. Ineffable Blessing is an overpowered draw engine, but there are lots of those in EDH. (Is it actually crazier with tokens than Skullclamp?) Mise requires at least a token amount of work to be an Ancestral Recall (unless you mise, of course) and again doesn't really seem that much more offensive than already-legal cards. It's amusing that Necro-Impotence is often better than Necropotence, but is it so much better that it needs a ban while the latter is legal?
I'll give my own opinion/remarks on some of your points.
1) Ol' Buzzbark has you dropping dice from a substantial height onto cards. The corners of the dice could very easily damage cards on the table. It should be avoided. If you wanna roll dice with a commander use The Big Idea as your general.
2) I agree with Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil. No doubt it was the inspiration for Panglacial Wurm just as Infernal Spawn of Evil was the inspiration for the forecast mechanic.
3) Magical Hacker means that I can pay U and ultimate any planeswalker I have in play. Or making Toxic Deluge a Hatred for my entire board for 2BU. Etc.
4) Rare-B-Gone depends on the set in which a card was printed so it shouldn't be included for the reason I stated above quoting your post. Some reprints change rarity and cards are supposed to be considered the same exact card regardless of which set it was printed in. Rare-B-Gone is one of those cards that ignores that very important rule.
5) Ineffable Blessing counts things that aren't the same for all cards of the same name. Some reprints have flavor text whereas other versions of the same card don't. It should therefore be excluded. More or Less causes problems by making a lot of costs become 0. That is ridiculously dangerous and broken.
6) Topsy Turvy is beyond annoying and mindwracking. The rules nightmare are Elm Street levels. Rules Lawyer isn't anymore broken than cards like Phyrexian Unlife or Platinum Angel. It's not that difficult to work around and very easy to remove.
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I guess I get it when it's in relation to your opponent's cards because the incentives get weird if you want to make your deck resistant to Persecute Artist (though tbh I didn't need a reason to play as many Rebecca Guay cards as possible) but like, building your deck to maximize Ineffable Blessing sounds like a fun thing to do.
At the very least, the cards that refer to Unstable-specific watermarks seem to me to break that rule in only the most technical sense. Steamflogger Boss is the only card that's been printed both with and without an Unstable watermark, and it is highly unlikely that any Unstable card will ever be reprinted, so there isn't any actual danger of "oh no it matters which version I buy now" with those. (Except Steamflogger Boss, but buying the non-futureshifted version of any card is always the objectively correct decision anyway.)
I don't see how fractions matter that much especially in commander anyway though. Are there even playable fraction cards for the format? Infinity elemental, outside of a combo piece is also just a red Phage the untouchable and I never see the.card anyway. I like it since I'm the tummies Timmy around but I doubt its all that good or anything.
In terms of cards that require dexterity, I think we can allow the ones that only affect you (such as Standing Army), but I'd perhaps shy away from forcing your opponents from doing things against their will (like Side to side).
I'm a bit on the fence with cards that check for expansion symbols, flavour text or watermarks, but I think as long as a similar philosophy is set up to not ruin or spite your opponents for not running specific printings of cards, then why not?
Is Gleemax not worth banning for power reasons? There are a lot of ways you can cheat it onto the battlefield and it can really mess up the game for everyone.
You can also add Deadhead to the collusion list because that's potentially a repeatable creature to sacrifice or have enter/leave the battlefield.
Well, as you just said, Gleemax needs to be cheated into play. In order to hardcast it, you'd basically have to be producing close to infinite mana to cast it. With infinite mana you could easily just win the game, something that Gleemax doesn't do outright. Its controller may choose targets as he/she wants, but global spells will get rid of Gleemax - and there're plenty of those.
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To me at least, the main question is whether the format is fun on a permanent basis with a banlist similar to this, more than whether some of this banlist is unnecessary. I'm no pro, so perhaps More or Less, Ineffable Blessing, Necro-Impotence, Mise, and Rare-B-Gone wouldn't wreck CompEDH, but it would probably build more goodwill to ban more things at first and let things off slowly than risk a totally broken format that makes everyone hate Un-cards as a whole.
While I disagree, I think this is the crux of this discussion. How much would people object to Commander following the Un-rule that not all cards with the same name have to work identically? My personal opinion and understanding is that most people wouldn't mind, it wouldn't be all that competitively relevant, and it would open up a lot of creative decks. So, the only problem with Un-sets in Commander is a couple broken cards, easily bannable.
But you clearly disagree, and if the community is on your side, perhaps it's best not to legalize Un-sets after all, since the "individual cards matter" mechanic is fundamental to silver-border.
I think that's the best statement on the entire matter. I hope there's more goodwill in the future towards these cards. But maybe un-cards will be unbanned in a seasonal sense like it is now. That way people won't feel that it's going to be a thing. Maybe that'll work? Like Persephone in the Underworld, silver-bordered cards being legal (to a certain extent) not always is kind of an interesting thing.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Haha, yeah. The way I envision it, there would eventually be some silver-bordered additions to the banlist purely for power reasons, and then a separate list of "these cards are banned by default but they are legal with your playgroup's consent" for all the dexterity/collusion/multi-game cards that aren't actually too powerful, just not healthy mechanics to have in a public format. I just hope it doesn't go down where for 45 days, all the broken things ruin the format, everyone hates Un-cards, everyone hates Sheldon, and nobody ever allows silver border cards anywhere near the command zone ever again. That would make me very sad.
Very true. Hopefully more are banned along the way to prevent all-round hatred and a purge-type setting during these 45 days of anarchy.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!