I hsve the most far out, crazy conspiracy theory as to why they did this. Get ready, hold on to your (tin foil) hats, here goes; maybe, just maybe, they saw the Unstable spoiler and thought, “Wow! This set looks hella fun. Would love try some that stuff in EDH.”
Just a crazy thought, you know.
Then they could have taken their own advice and house-ruled it for their insulated group, not forced it on everyone else.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Man, people certainly are taking this very seriously. It's a month and a half, and the format was already broken. If you're worried about competitive EDH and for some reason you aren't playing with the duel banlist, then...go play legacy or something? Also realize you're a tiny minority.
There are a handful of cards I feel they've missed that are dangerous. For the sake of my inner evil Johnny, here are a few of them:
keeper of the sacred word: insta-kills as long as you've got a willing colluder.
gotcha cards: similar to keeper with wild mongrel or such. Also some of them (stop that for instance) are pretty busted when used with collusion. name dropping: potential for the former, except also holy crap would that be annoying with a 20+ card graveyard. rare-b-gone: the fact that most 3+ color decks with any decent budget are running a huge number of rare lands makes this terrifying. more or less: goes infinite with nearly anything with a 1 activated ability, i.e. carrion ants and bog initiate.
Probably others, those are the ones that stood out so far though.
I agree, the issue is that many playgroups cant come to a concensus on meta adjustments and go purely off of the banned list as outlined by the RC. Silver boardered cards could easily have gotten a rule similar to wishboards to make it optional based on the meta.
Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.
They don't function unless agreed to be used beforehand by the playgroup. You could just as easily have silver cards be in the same sort of setup and let playgroups self regulate what is banned if they allow it at all.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I agree, the issue is that many playgroups cant come to a concensus on meta adjustments and go purely off of the banned list as outlined by the RC. Silver boardered cards could easily have gotten a rule similar to wishboards to make it optional based on the meta.
Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.
Related list, cards that I don't understand why the RC thinks they're problematic:
collector protector: even if you ignore the donation cost, it's just a terrible card. Maybe there's some crazy politics of donating cards in exchange for concessions or something? I have no idea. Seems like you could kinda do that anyway, I guess maybe it just seems more "legit" with collector?
infernal spawn of infernal spawn of evil: I guess it could add time to searching to prove you didn't draw it since the last search? Personally I'd be ok taking their word for it. Seems like a fairly bad card otherwise. No one runs that wurm.
Johnny, combo player: I mean considering cards like diabolic revelation exist, having a way to turn huge mana into a bunch of tutored cards seems like it's already pretty easy. I guess because he can sit in the command zone? But Sidisi is already better at that. So idk.
I hsve the most far out, crazy conspiracy theory as to why they did this. Get ready, hold on to your (tin foil) hats, here goes; maybe, just maybe, they saw the Unstable spoiler and thought, “Wow! This set looks hella fun. Would love try some that stuff in EDH.”
Just a crazy thought, you know.
Related list, cards that I don't understand why the RC thinks they're problematic:
collector protector: even if you ignore the donation cost, it's just a terrible card. Maybe there's some crazy politics of donating cards in exchange for concessions or something? I have no idea. Seems like you could kinda do that anyway, I guess maybe it just seems more "legit" with collector?
infernal spawn of infernal spawn of evil: I guess it could add time to searching to prove you didn't draw it since the last search? Personally I'd be ok taking their word for it. Seems like a fairly bad card otherwise. No one runs that wurm.
Johnny, combo player: I mean considering cards like diabolic revelation exist, having a way to turn huge mana into a bunch of tutored cards seems like it's already pretty easy. I guess because he can sit in the command zone? But Sidisi is already better at that. So idk.
Johnny costs 4... activates for 1. And can do it turn after turn, with no timing requirement. That's why.
Collector can give your opponent Leveler, Phage, or something similar.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Related list, cards that I don't understand why the RC thinks they're problematic:
collector protector: even if you ignore the donation cost, it's just a terrible card. Maybe there's some crazy politics of donating cards in exchange for concessions or something? I have no idea. Seems like you could kinda do that anyway, I guess maybe it just seems more "legit" with collector?
infernal spawn of infernal spawn of evil: I guess it could add time to searching to prove you didn't draw it since the last search? Personally I'd be ok taking their word for it. Seems like a fairly bad card otherwise. No one runs that wurm.
Johnny, combo player: I mean considering cards like diabolic revelation exist, having a way to turn huge mana into a bunch of tutored cards seems like it's already pretty easy. I guess because he can sit in the command zone? But Sidisi is already better at that. So idk.
Johnny costs 4... activates for 1. And can do it turn after turn, with no timing requirement. That's why.
Collector can give your opponent Leveler, Phage, or something similar.
Johnny costs 4 and activates for 4, not 1. Each time.
Still abusable, and I agree he could be a problem, but he's not as broken as if he was only 1.
Related list, cards that I don't understand why the RC thinks they're problematic:
collector protector: even if you ignore the donation cost, it's just a terrible card. Maybe there's some crazy politics of donating cards in exchange for concessions or something? I have no idea. Seems like you could kinda do that anyway, I guess maybe it just seems more "legit" with collector?
infernal spawn of infernal spawn of evil: I guess it could add time to searching to prove you didn't draw it since the last search? Personally I'd be ok taking their word for it. Seems like a fairly bad card otherwise. No one runs that wurm.
Johnny, combo player: I mean considering cards like diabolic revelation exist, having a way to turn huge mana into a bunch of tutored cards seems like it's already pretty easy. I guess because he can sit in the command zone? But Sidisi is already better at that. So idk.
Johnny costs 4... activates for 1. And can do it turn after turn, with no timing requirement. That's why.
Collector can give your opponent Leveler, Phage, or something similar.
Johnny costs 4 and activates for 4, not 1. Each time.
Still abusable, and I agree he could be a problem, but he's not as broken as if he was only 1.
I own the card... and yet for some reason I thought it read "U" to activate, not "4".
That's my bad.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Related list, cards that I don't understand why the RC thinks they're problematic:
collector protector: even if you ignore the donation cost, it's just a terrible card. Maybe there's some crazy politics of donating cards in exchange for concessions or something? I have no idea. Seems like you could kinda do that anyway, I guess maybe it just seems more "legit" with collector?
infernal spawn of infernal spawn of evil: I guess it could add time to searching to prove you didn't draw it since the last search? Personally I'd be ok taking their word for it. Seems like a fairly bad card otherwise. No one runs that wurm.
Johnny, combo player: I mean considering cards like diabolic revelation exist, having a way to turn huge mana into a bunch of tutored cards seems like it's already pretty easy. I guess because he can sit in the command zone? But Sidisi is already better at that. So idk.
Johnny costs 4... activates for 1. And can do it turn after turn, with no timing requirement. That's why.
Collector can give your opponent Leveler, Phage, or something similar.
Lol, so besides the activation cost on Johnny, I'm 99% sure you misunderstand collector protector - you give them ownership, it doesn't enter the battlefield though. Unless there's some unhinged FAQ that says otherwise?
As far as Collector Protector goes: "I play Collector Protector. Then sacrifice my Mindslaver targetting you, then finish it off by using Donate to give you my Collector Protector. Now, I take your turn, pay WWWWWWWW...lessee your binder..."
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'm just going to ignore it. If your playgroup appreciates it, they would've allowed it in the first place, no need for this added fine text.
Unfortunately, you can't really ignore official rules. If there were a tournament right now for commander, I would be able to have Giant Fan in my deck because the people who made the format have allowed me to. I can understand how you don't want it there, but it's legal nonetheless.
Then you misunderstood, I don't mind the silver border cards being being in the game, but as I stated in my original post, if a playgroup allows it, they would've allowed it already, same way Chromanticore is allowed as commander in certain group and not others, same way people can agree not to play LD cards, same way some groups follow WotC's 1v1 rules while some follow French, etc. The term "official" is very fluid in a casual format like EDH, and holds only as much authority as your playgroup, that will be the case until WotC sanctions EDH/Commander and made it truly official.
Ah, I see. My bad. Well, I can understand your point. The thing is, silver-bordered cards don't go against the spirit of commander. At all. They don't break color identity or anything like that. So I honestly don't see what the big deal is. It's not like they're allowing off-color hybrid cards to be in a deck or allowing non-legendary creatures to be your commander. That to me is what breaks the rules of commander. I've had my qualms about bannings before but I've had to respect it because there has to be some universality for a format to exist. I didn't like the mulligan change. I didn't like it at all. But I have to mulligan normally instead of Partial Paris. I don't like the fact that I can't use wishes as intentionally used (or cards like Spawnsire of Ulamog and its ilk) but rules are rules. No one here is making the nephalim allowable as commander or cards like Chromanticore or Maelstrom Angel. That to me should be something more mob-gathering than unbanning certain uncards for 45 days. Because those things go against what the commander format is actually about - a singleton format with a deck constructed of 100 cards with a legendary creature you can cast from a command zone where all cards have to follow its color identity. The few tweaks (because it's not really changes) to the rules is that color identity can also include what's in the text box, legends banned as commander are also banned as part of the deck, and now silver-bordered cards are legal. I don't agree whatsoever with banned as a commander = banned in the deck. But I have to follow it. As much as I want to add Braids, Cabal Minion to my Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest deck or Leovold, Emissary of Trest to my Vial Smasher the Fierce + Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix deck.
Then you misunderstood, I don't mind the silver border cards being being in the game, but as I stated in my original post, if a playgroup allows it, they would've allowed it already, same way Chromanticore is allowed as commander in certain group and not others, same way people can agree not to play LD cards, same way some groups follow WotC's 1v1 rules while some follow French, etc. The term "official" is very fluid in a casual format like EDH, and holds only as much authority as your playgroup, that will be the case until WotC sanctions EDH/Commander and made it truly official.
I agree, the issue is that many playgroups cant come to a concensus on meta adjustments and go purely off of the banned list as outlined by the RC. Silver boardered cards could easily have gotten a rule similar to wishboards to make it optional based on the meta. You could also just leave them off entirely and just let metas do what they will.
I would honestly rather play againstBraids, Cabal Minion as a commander as a perma unban than to play against un sets for 45 days.
Every set released brings potential problems to any eternal format. How many times has new sets caused old cards that weren't broken to become broken and thus banned? Anyone remember how Apocalypse caused Dark Ritual to never again be reprinted in Standard because of T2 Spiritmonger? Leovold, Emissary of Trest was broken to point of being banned as quickly as possible. Nobody banned it from the get-go. It was only after the massive degenerateness that it was banned.
The same will probably happen with the silver-bordered cards. All those broken or ridiculous cards that's you're so violent against participating in games with, will undoubtedly be banned. Then, those cards that are for Johnnys or people who want to up the fun factor won't be a problem. Because, as you mentioned, un-cards are either bad, broken, or annoying. So more likely than not, you're gonna be playing against bad cards or cards that are fun for some without warping the game.
If I cast Organ Harvest with Mazirek, Kraul Death Prist on the battlefield, that would be a great play. If it were a 2HG game, it would be an even greater play. Is it a broken play? No. Is it an "I want to gouge my eyes out and consume the soul of this guy for playing that card" kind of play? No. Would casting a Death Cloud with X=8 be a much better play instead? Yes. Would casting said Death Cloud be more obnoxious than the previously mentioned Organ Harvest? Yes. Would that Death Cloud be more "unfun" to some players in the game? Yes. Death Cloud would screw over every player in the game and I'll reap more rewards for it whereas Organ Harvest would require only sacrifices by me or my teammates for me to reap not as many rewards. I find it a bit depressing that in this circumstance, I would be criticized or be denied to play for having Organ Harvest in my deck simply because it's silver-bordered when there are many more obnoxious cards out there that are legal and in the eternal format card pool (which isn't the same card pool as commander).
Going a bit deeper into some examples, I really like the cards from the S.N.E.A.K. faction that let you steal or play cards from opponents. Many people may be against these mechanics because they're in silver-bordered. But you actually have to jump through more hoops to be able to steal cards from an opponent than in black-bordered magic. You can just steal a creature with Control Magic and be done with it. However, with Spy Eye, for example, you'd have to deal combat damage to a player in order to draw a card from that player's deck. Then you'd have to have the mana necessary to play that card. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to. That's not something that's too out of this world or "I'm gonna flip the table over" incomprehensible.
However, as this rapport has gone on between us before, which I understand that I will never convince you otherwise, my points aren't to convince you of letting the bane of un-cards pollute your EDH experience, I'm just presenting them. I do share many qualms with you as to the dangers of being lax with every silver-bordered card out there except for a handfew. However, I do encourage you and anyone else that wouldn't touch these games with a 39½ pole, to let it be for the time being. Let people try and break the cards. Put up with it for 45 days. Let it be your holiday gift to the world. Let the experimentation and apocalypse ensue for 45 days. Then, when the dust is settled, and the havoc is over, people can account to how amazing some games were due to being able to build around viable un-cards, and how miserable other games were due to the other silver-bordered cards. This is usually how it is with the release of new black-bordered sets, anyways. Then it wouldn't just be wanton hatred towards all silver-bordered cards, but instead a justified conclusion as to which should be banned and which are okay. Because there are some silver-bordered cards which I simply do not like at all. So I do share some of your sentiment, even though you may probably think otherwise.
This is by far the worst B&R decision I have ever seen in any format. The weird timeframe thing, the confusion it causes on events, the division it will cause among play groups... everything...
Have they lost their minds?! Is money involved? For the first time we will need to create a house rule (=no silverbordered allowed) since we started playing EDH.
Terrible.
I agree with the tournament you mentioned not allowing silver-bordered cards for the moment. On one hand it would've been a great way to gather data. On the other hand, they were in the right due to the time constraints. Unstable hasn't been released yet so the only silver-bordered cards out there would be from Unglued and Unhinged, which aren't the best silver-bordered cards to be using. There are some that are great without being annoying or broken, but it would be maybe a handful. And without Gatherer updating the wordings on the cards from those sets, judging those games would've been a complete nightmare; MaRo's FAQ articles simply aren't enough as far as legit rulings are concerned. I feel that the RC were 80% awesome in their decision. The other 20% is because the card pool is too big and they should've waited or at least pushed WotC to update the Oracle wording on the other silver-bordered cards (Happy Holidays promos, Unglued, and Unhinged). I for one am glad because outside of constructing a cube, there really is no other way for me to use some of my silver-bordered cards.
My local area has already announced that they will be completely ignoring this for any and all EDH tournaments. The hatred for this is nearly universal. And we all know why. For every player who wants to play The Cheese Stands Alone, you have nine others that want to completely break the game.
I don't often agree with the RC, and this certainly isn't helping matters. I have accused Sheldon in the past of taking his personal playgroup and unilaterally applying it to everyone, and this seems like a case of that. His group wants to use them, so they made it official so everyone gets to suffer along with them.
If I can be honest with you, you're being too extreme with "the hatred towards silver-bordered cards". If they were so awful, there wouldn't be three sets of the product. There is a consumer for it, there is a market for it, and there are people who love designing just as much as there are people who love playing with it. I feel that ignoring this problem altogether is the wrong thing to do. You mentioned the people who want to use viable cards. Your local area should then justify them disallowing certain cards, whether due to logistics or rulings reasons. For example, keeping track of fractional mana costs, damage, etc. is gonna be a pain. Ignore those. Dexterity cards, or cards that have you do things beyond playing Magic (putting your hands behind your back, balancing cards on your head/hand, saying things, doing other things, etc.) Play minigames like staring contests, arm wrestling, etc. Shooting nerf guns at decks. Any and all of those kinds of cards are understandable to ban. Even cards that are obviously broken should be banned. But I feel that it's in bad spirit to simply say "no and that's final" as if all un-cards were in the same boat. So I can't go to a local store and play a friendly fun deck? Every deck has to be competitive? I think that kind of reasoning is equally extreme.
Man, people certainly are taking this very seriously. It's a month and a half, and the format was already broken. If you're worried about competitive EDH and for some reason you aren't playing with the duel banlist, then...go play legacy or something? Also realize you're a tiny minority.
There are a handful of cards I feel they've missed that are dangerous. For the sake of my inner evil Johnny, here are a few of them:
keeper of the sacred word: insta-kills as long as you've got a willing colluder.
gotcha cards: similar to keeper with wild mongrel or such. Also some of them (stop that for instance) are pretty busted when used with collusion. name dropping: potential for the former, except also holy crap would that be annoying with a 20+ card graveyard. rare-b-gone: the fact that most 3+ color decks with any decent budget are running a huge number of rare lands makes this terrifying. more or less: goes infinite with nearly anything with a 1 activated ability, i.e. carrion ants and bog initiate.
Probably others, those are the ones that stood out so far though.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you. If you walk around the rules you can certainly bend them to such a degree with opponents ganging up on other players. And that is certainly possible with gotcha and the other collusive cards you mentioned. Those should be outright banned.
Now, I know I've responded to many people here in this particular thread on this subject. But I have been going on a bit about this subject for quite some time now in many other threads. And silver-bordered cards have always interested me for some strange reason; I find it a very interesting subject. I guess it's because since I can't play with them then I wanna play with them, lol. I know I've also posted my list of cards that I consider to be okay enough to play with in a black-bordered setting even with people who are hellbent against them simply because they're black-bordered. But please, I plead with all of you who abhorrently hate the un-cards (and no, I'm not being patronizing, cynical, sarcastic, etc.; I'm actually being very sincere and straightforward) take the time to look at my list. Rethink the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" to "don't just a card by its border" while you see the cards. And in all honesty, in an objective way - if at all possible, tell me what would be wrong with these cards. I'm anticipating a fallout on Jan. 15 where maybe only the silver-bordered legendary creatures (apart from Spike) and contraptions (along with cards that mention them, assemble them, or reassemble them) would be legal. But, for the moment, please humor me and indulge me. Here's my list. Please help me in determining if this would be an okay list to include in the commander card pool. I want to be a part of the solution. I want to help filter out the chaff and other cards that would not be fun for everyone. If you don't want to even bother, that's fine. But for those who can be somewhat objective, help me out. I do want to be helpful. Anyways, enough with the pleading and on with the list:
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I know several people that will just play cedh decks until the rule expires in January. I'm probably going to carry at least one in case I land at a broken table.
Then they could have taken their own advice and house-ruled it for their insulated group, not forced it on everyone else.
As you're clearly well informed about the RC's playgroup, could you shed some light on it? What can you tell us about it? Where are the RC all located?
Then they could have taken their own advice and house-ruled it for their insulated group, not forced it on everyone else.
As you're clearly well informed about the RC's playgroup, could you shed some light on it? What can you tell us about it? Where are the RC all located?
As far as Collector Protector goes: "I play Collector Protector. Then sacrifice my Mindslaver targetting you, then finish it off by using Donate to give you my Collector Protector. Now, I take your turn, pay WWWWWWWW...lessee your binder..."
But what if your opponent has no way of generating W?
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Iove that picture because I always read it in my head using the announcers voice from Superfriends.
I'm selfishly very happy about this new ruling because I really want to use X as a commander. As one of the lucky players to have a fixed and regular play group, this change won't be a big deal for us. I don't envy folks who play pick up games at LGS or tournaments for that matter.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Then they could have taken their own advice and house-ruled it for their insulated group, not forced it on everyone else.
As you're clearly well informed about the RC's playgroup, could you shed some light on it? What can you tell us about it? Where are the RC all located?
While you're here, care to explain this change (for 45 days no less)?
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
As far as Collector Protector goes: "I play Collector Protector. Then sacrifice my Mindslaver targetting you, then finish it off by using Donate to give you my Collector Protector. Now, I take your turn, pay WWWWWWWW...lessee your binder..."
lol, that would be epic if anyone actually pulled that off. Epic in the sense of "ok, obviously I just scoop in response, but that was cute."
Somehow I don't think that's what they had in mind, but I'm not sure what they DID have in mind putting it on the watch list. Bribery (the literal kind, not the card) is my best guess.
As you're clearly well informed about the RC's playgroup, could you shed some light on it? What can you tell us about it? Where are the RC all located?
While you're here, care to explain this change (for 45 days no less)?
I really would like to hear this too - this change has way greater social repercussions that the typical RC decision (I can imagine all the event organizers and players for the next month getting into much miscommunication). I can't really think of much reasons why the RC would risk making the format so unstable (yes pun intended) for 45 days.
Then they could have taken their own advice and house-ruled it for their insulated group, not forced it on everyone else.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
There are a handful of cards I feel they've missed that are dangerous. For the sake of my inner evil Johnny, here are a few of them:
keeper of the sacred word: insta-kills as long as you've got a willing colluder.
gotcha cards: similar to keeper with wild mongrel or such. Also some of them (stop that for instance) are pretty busted when used with collusion.
name dropping: potential for the former, except also holy crap would that be annoying with a 20+ card graveyard.
rare-b-gone: the fact that most 3+ color decks with any decent budget are running a huge number of rare lands makes this terrifying.
more or less: goes infinite with nearly anything with a 1 activated ability, i.e. carrion ants and bog initiate.
Probably others, those are the ones that stood out so far though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
What rule about wishboards?
@Teysa: psha! they’re the RC, of course they’re force onto us all.
To quote the official rules:
They don't function unless agreed to be used beforehand by the playgroup. You could just as easily have silver cards be in the same sort of setup and let playgroups self regulate what is banned if they allow it at all.
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collector protector: even if you ignore the donation cost, it's just a terrible card. Maybe there's some crazy politics of donating cards in exchange for concessions or something? I have no idea. Seems like you could kinda do that anyway, I guess maybe it just seems more "legit" with collector?
infernal spawn of infernal spawn of evil: I guess it could add time to searching to prove you didn't draw it since the last search? Personally I'd be ok taking their word for it. Seems like a fairly bad card otherwise. No one runs that wurm.
Johnny, combo player: I mean considering cards like diabolic revelation exist, having a way to turn huge mana into a bunch of tutored cards seems like it's already pretty easy. I guess because he can sit in the command zone? But Sidisi is already better at that. So idk.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
That's just crazy talk.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Johnny costs 4... activates for 1. And can do it turn after turn, with no timing requirement. That's why.
Collector can give your opponent Leveler, Phage, or something similar.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Still abusable, and I agree he could be a problem, but he's not as broken as if he was only 1.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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I own the card... and yet for some reason I thought it read "U" to activate, not "4".
That's my bad.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
link to unhinged FAQ btw: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/faq/unhinged
I mean, you can still totally give them a phage, though. Probably you're better off handing out draft chaff, though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Ah, I see. My bad. Well, I can understand your point. The thing is, silver-bordered cards don't go against the spirit of commander. At all. They don't break color identity or anything like that. So I honestly don't see what the big deal is. It's not like they're allowing off-color hybrid cards to be in a deck or allowing non-legendary creatures to be your commander. That to me is what breaks the rules of commander. I've had my qualms about bannings before but I've had to respect it because there has to be some universality for a format to exist. I didn't like the mulligan change. I didn't like it at all. But I have to mulligan normally instead of Partial Paris. I don't like the fact that I can't use wishes as intentionally used (or cards like Spawnsire of Ulamog and its ilk) but rules are rules. No one here is making the nephalim allowable as commander or cards like Chromanticore or Maelstrom Angel. That to me should be something more mob-gathering than unbanning certain uncards for 45 days. Because those things go against what the commander format is actually about - a singleton format with a deck constructed of 100 cards with a legendary creature you can cast from a command zone where all cards have to follow its color identity. The few tweaks (because it's not really changes) to the rules is that color identity can also include what's in the text box, legends banned as commander are also banned as part of the deck, and now silver-bordered cards are legal. I don't agree whatsoever with banned as a commander = banned in the deck. But I have to follow it. As much as I want to add Braids, Cabal Minion to my Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest deck or Leovold, Emissary of Trest to my Vial Smasher the Fierce + Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix deck.
Every set released brings potential problems to any eternal format. How many times has new sets caused old cards that weren't broken to become broken and thus banned? Anyone remember how Apocalypse caused Dark Ritual to never again be reprinted in Standard because of T2 Spiritmonger? Leovold, Emissary of Trest was broken to point of being banned as quickly as possible. Nobody banned it from the get-go. It was only after the massive degenerateness that it was banned.
The same will probably happen with the silver-bordered cards. All those broken or ridiculous cards that's you're so violent against participating in games with, will undoubtedly be banned. Then, those cards that are for Johnnys or people who want to up the fun factor won't be a problem. Because, as you mentioned, un-cards are either bad, broken, or annoying. So more likely than not, you're gonna be playing against bad cards or cards that are fun for some without warping the game.
If I cast Organ Harvest with Mazirek, Kraul Death Prist on the battlefield, that would be a great play. If it were a 2HG game, it would be an even greater play. Is it a broken play? No. Is it an "I want to gouge my eyes out and consume the soul of this guy for playing that card" kind of play? No. Would casting a Death Cloud with X=8 be a much better play instead? Yes. Would casting said Death Cloud be more obnoxious than the previously mentioned Organ Harvest? Yes. Would that Death Cloud be more "unfun" to some players in the game? Yes. Death Cloud would screw over every player in the game and I'll reap more rewards for it whereas Organ Harvest would require only sacrifices by me or my teammates for me to reap not as many rewards. I find it a bit depressing that in this circumstance, I would be criticized or be denied to play for having Organ Harvest in my deck simply because it's silver-bordered when there are many more obnoxious cards out there that are legal and in the eternal format card pool (which isn't the same card pool as commander).
Going a bit deeper into some examples, I really like the cards from the S.N.E.A.K. faction that let you steal or play cards from opponents. Many people may be against these mechanics because they're in silver-bordered. But you actually have to jump through more hoops to be able to steal cards from an opponent than in black-bordered magic. You can just steal a creature with Control Magic and be done with it. However, with Spy Eye, for example, you'd have to deal combat damage to a player in order to draw a card from that player's deck. Then you'd have to have the mana necessary to play that card. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to. That's not something that's too out of this world or "I'm gonna flip the table over" incomprehensible.
However, as this rapport has gone on between us before, which I understand that I will never convince you otherwise, my points aren't to convince you of letting the bane of un-cards pollute your EDH experience, I'm just presenting them. I do share many qualms with you as to the dangers of being lax with every silver-bordered card out there except for a handfew. However, I do encourage you and anyone else that wouldn't touch these games with a 39½ pole, to let it be for the time being. Let people try and break the cards. Put up with it for 45 days. Let it be your holiday gift to the world. Let the experimentation and apocalypse ensue for 45 days. Then, when the dust is settled, and the havoc is over, people can account to how amazing some games were due to being able to build around viable un-cards, and how miserable other games were due to the other silver-bordered cards. This is usually how it is with the release of new black-bordered sets, anyways. Then it wouldn't just be wanton hatred towards all silver-bordered cards, but instead a justified conclusion as to which should be banned and which are okay. Because there are some silver-bordered cards which I simply do not like at all. So I do share some of your sentiment, even though you may probably think otherwise.
I agree with the tournament you mentioned not allowing silver-bordered cards for the moment. On one hand it would've been a great way to gather data. On the other hand, they were in the right due to the time constraints. Unstable hasn't been released yet so the only silver-bordered cards out there would be from Unglued and Unhinged, which aren't the best silver-bordered cards to be using. There are some that are great without being annoying or broken, but it would be maybe a handful. And without Gatherer updating the wordings on the cards from those sets, judging those games would've been a complete nightmare; MaRo's FAQ articles simply aren't enough as far as legit rulings are concerned. I feel that the RC were 80% awesome in their decision. The other 20% is because the card pool is too big and they should've waited or at least pushed WotC to update the Oracle wording on the other silver-bordered cards (Happy Holidays promos, Unglued, and Unhinged). I for one am glad because outside of constructing a cube, there really is no other way for me to use some of my silver-bordered cards.
If I can be honest with you, you're being too extreme with "the hatred towards silver-bordered cards". If they were so awful, there wouldn't be three sets of the product. There is a consumer for it, there is a market for it, and there are people who love designing just as much as there are people who love playing with it. I feel that ignoring this problem altogether is the wrong thing to do. You mentioned the people who want to use viable cards. Your local area should then justify them disallowing certain cards, whether due to logistics or rulings reasons. For example, keeping track of fractional mana costs, damage, etc. is gonna be a pain. Ignore those. Dexterity cards, or cards that have you do things beyond playing Magic (putting your hands behind your back, balancing cards on your head/hand, saying things, doing other things, etc.) Play minigames like staring contests, arm wrestling, etc. Shooting nerf guns at decks. Any and all of those kinds of cards are understandable to ban. Even cards that are obviously broken should be banned. But I feel that it's in bad spirit to simply say "no and that's final" as if all un-cards were in the same boat. So I can't go to a local store and play a friendly fun deck? Every deck has to be competitive? I think that kind of reasoning is equally extreme.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you. If you walk around the rules you can certainly bend them to such a degree with opponents ganging up on other players. And that is certainly possible with gotcha and the other collusive cards you mentioned. Those should be outright banned.
Now, I know I've responded to many people here in this particular thread on this subject. But I have been going on a bit about this subject for quite some time now in many other threads. And silver-bordered cards have always interested me for some strange reason; I find it a very interesting subject. I guess it's because since I can't play with them then I wanna play with them, lol. I know I've also posted my list of cards that I consider to be okay enough to play with in a black-bordered setting even with people who are hellbent against them simply because they're black-bordered. But please, I plead with all of you who abhorrently hate the un-cards (and no, I'm not being patronizing, cynical, sarcastic, etc.; I'm actually being very sincere and straightforward) take the time to look at my list. Rethink the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" to "don't just a card by its border" while you see the cards. And in all honesty, in an objective way - if at all possible, tell me what would be wrong with these cards. I'm anticipating a fallout on Jan. 15 where maybe only the silver-bordered legendary creatures (apart from Spike) and contraptions (along with cards that mention them, assemble them, or reassemble them) would be legal. But, for the moment, please humor me and indulge me. Here's my list. Please help me in determining if this would be an okay list to include in the commander card pool. I want to be a part of the solution. I want to help filter out the chaff and other cards that would not be fun for everyone. If you don't want to even bother, that's fine. But for those who can be somewhat objective, help me out. I do want to be helpful. Anyways, enough with the pleading and on with the list:
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
As you're clearly well informed about the RC's playgroup, could you shed some light on it? What can you tell us about it? Where are the RC all located?
But what if your opponent has no way of generating W?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I'm selfishly very happy about this new ruling because I really want to use X as a commander. As one of the lucky players to have a fixed and regular play group, this change won't be a big deal for us. I don't envy folks who play pick up games at LGS or tournaments for that matter.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
While you're here, care to explain this change (for 45 days no less)?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Somehow I don't think that's what they had in mind, but I'm not sure what they DID have in mind putting it on the watch list. Bribery (the literal kind, not the card) is my best guess.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I really would like to hear this too - this change has way greater social repercussions that the typical RC decision (I can imagine all the event organizers and players for the next month getting into much miscommunication). I can't really think of much reasons why the RC would risk making the format so unstable (yes pun intended) for 45 days.
Can't wait when Commander goes under WotC's hands.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG