Anyone have thoughts on this card? Part of me thinks the forced attack part can push other players into unfavourable trades, and the continual treasure spawn could be good for ramp, or other artifact-y play (I really want to pair this with Marionette Master, for example).
Cons are obviously that it's slow, does nothing on entering the battlefield (well, not *nothing*, you probably get one treasure out of it at least) and doesn't necessarily buy you the things you want (but treasure should be able to buy anything!).
Do you run it with Caltrops, Lightmine Field, and Powerstone Minefield? Or the other cards that allow one creature to attack anyway? Just seems like the impact is too small by itself to offset the risk.
Only run it if you want to be attacked every turn. The treasure is a bonus, forcing the attack is the biggest thing, so its only worth it if that is something you want to happen every turn and that is your primary reason for running it. I'm not sure what build wants the effect though, and there are other cards with "everyone attacks" abilities, although forcing the attack to go against you is more rare. It's a limited bomb because forcing bad attacks every turn can be very high impact there to the point of shutting someone out of the game, but in EDH I don't see that happening as often.
One big thing I want to mention is the difference between 1v1 and multiplayer. In 1v1, this effect is never a drawback, because if attacking you is good for your opponent they would have done it without being forced, so your worst case scenario is that it just makes treasure (disclaimer: technically, your opponent may be inclined to misplay and not attack when they should, in which case the card forces them to play correctly, so the previous statement assumes you are playing against an opponent who is making the right plays). In multiplayer, however, there are more options on who to attack, so an attack being detrimental to you winning may not be in your opponents vest interest and thus would not have been made without the card. They may have wanted to attack a planeswalker or another player for some reason instead of you with that creature, and instead were forced to attack you. Maybe they had this one chance to get their voltron to connect with player A and knock them out of the game, but were forced to hit you instead. Maybe they needed to alpha strike to stop a walker from hitting its ult next turn but you forced one of their dudes at you instead.
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Anyone have thoughts on this card? Part of me thinks the forced attack part can push other players into unfavourable trades, and the continual treasure spawn could be good for ramp, or other artifact-y play (I really want to pair this with Marionette Master, for example).
Cons are obviously that it's slow, does nothing on entering the battlefield (well, not *nothing*, you probably get one treasure out of it at least) and doesn't necessarily buy you the things you want (but treasure should be able to buy anything!).
Thoughts?
I find Trove particularly good with Boros because they have advantage in combat manipulation, and artifact also aligns with other new cards like Treasure Map/Treasure Cove, fill in things Boros have trouble with (such as card drawing).
Do you run it with Caltrops, Lightmine Field, and Powerstone Minefield? Or the other cards that allow one creature to attack anyway? Just seems like the impact is too small by itself to offset the risk.
Again, if attacking you were advantageous, your opponents would do it anyway.
(Sorry, it just bugs me how many people think "A creature must attack you each combat." is a downside.)
That said, it's definitely something I would play if I already had plenty of rattlesnake cards. Things like No Mercy and Isperia, Supreme Judge. If an opponent has nothing with flying, pro-artifacts, or daunt, I could use it with Stuffy Doll (and possibly Furnace of Rath).
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
"Everybody, you must attack me every turn! But this here doll says all the pain is going to YOU Steve, mwahahahaha!"
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
You'd need some seriously powerful reasons to force everyone to attack you, as the upside the card gives is almost nothing.
I prefer cards like grand melee and Fumiko the Lowblood for forcing combat, because it won't turn the game into archenemy.
I guess there is a little bit of synergy with kazuul, tyrant of the cliffs, but I would struggle to find a deck I would play this card in, even weaker decks.
I say play in combo with cards that punish people for attacking you. No mercy is one option. You can also pair it with cards like crawlspace or even make it so they don't have to attack you by playing cards like sphere of safety. (Or cloneit a couple rimes and in conjunction with other enchantments could make them pay 20+ mana just to swing at you. I was o a game where my opponent could not afford to swing at me. (Not enough mana)
Could always be interesting in Zedruu, and similar donate-themed decks. Here Steve! You can have a mana every turn!
I'm not sure it would fit into a wide range of Zedruu decks, it would need to be in one that has lots of tokens or evasive creatures. Unless your donating to a creatureless or extremely creature light deck, it can end up hurting you if you donate it. I'd hate to get stuck in a situation where you are forced to attack in with Zedruu.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Could always be interesting in Zedruu, and similar donate-themed decks. Here Steve! You can have a mana every turn!
Why would you do that? Again, forcing players to do something they wouldn't normally do isn't a downside. Why does everyone keep treating that like it's a downside?
(It's no different than Lure forcing opponents to block one creature.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm not sure it would fit into a wide range of Zedruu decks, it would need to be in one that has lots of tokens or evasive creatures. Unless your donating to a creatureless or extremely creature light deck, it can end up hurting you if you donate it. I'd hate to get stuck in a situation where you are forced to attack in with Zedruu.
Well, that's always a valid point, but perhaps it could still be worth it, depending on your set up. Plus Reconnaissance is a fantastic card.
Why would you do that? Again, forcing players to do something they wouldn't normally do isn't a downside. Why does everyone keep treating that like it's a downside?
(It's no different than Lure forcing opponents to block one creature.)
Often times, people spread out their attacks. Forcing them to attack a specific player, even if only a tiny trickle gets through, will add up over time. I had a game recently where my early defenses were removed, and simply through opportunity hits for Sword of the Animist triggers and such, my life total dropped very quickly.
Forcing people to do something is most certainly a disadvantage for them. You're removing their options. Maybe they only have one creature and would rather hold it back for defense. Not anymore. Maybe they want to attack, but they'd rather attack someone else, like you. Now they can't. Every voltron deck now has a harder time killing someone who isn't who you've put a target on.
Lure on one of your creatures is most definitely a downside for your opponent - I don't understand how you could think otherwise? You now control the combat, and that is often used as either a killing blow, or a combo to kill all of your opponents' creatures.
I'm not sure it would fit into a wide range of Zedruu decks, it would need to be in one that has lots of tokens or evasive creatures. Unless your donating to a creatureless or extremely creature light deck, it can end up hurting you if you donate it. I'd hate to get stuck in a situation where you are forced to attack in with Zedruu.
Well, that's always a valid point, but perhaps it could still be worth it, depending on your set up. Plus Reconnaissance is a fantastic card.
Why would you do that? Again, forcing players to do something they wouldn't normally do isn't a downside. Why does everyone keep treating that like it's a downside?
(It's no different than Lure forcing opponents to block one creature.)
Often times, people spread out their attacks. Forcing them to attack a specific player, even if only a tiny trickle gets through, will add up over time. I had a game recently where my early defenses were removed, and simply through opportunity hits for Sword of the Animist triggers and such, my life total dropped very quickly.
Forcing people to do something is most certainly a disadvantage for them. You're removing their options. Maybe they only have one creature and would rather hold it back for defense. Not anymore. Maybe they want to attack, but they'd rather attack someone else, like you. Now they can't. Every voltron deck now has a harder time killing someone who isn't who you've put a target on.
Lure on one of your creatures is most definitely a downside for your opponent - I don't understand how you could think otherwise? You now control the combat, and that is often used as either a killing blow, or a combo to kill all of your opponents' creatures.
I could see it being useful to give to someone else if you were already planning on hitting them with an evasion creature, or if they have a board presence and you want to force your other opponents to attack into it, I just think it would be more corner case than using it straight, because the treasure becomes a downside, and not one that can easily be used to your advantage.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Anyone have thoughts on this card? Part of me thinks the forced attack part can push other players into unfavourable trades, and the continual treasure spawn could be good for ramp, or other artifact-y play (I really want to pair this with Marionette Master, for example).
Cons are obviously that it's slow, does nothing on entering the battlefield (well, not *nothing*, you probably get one treasure out of it at least) and doesn't necessarily buy you the things you want (but treasure should be able to buy anything!).
Thoughts?
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EDIT: The 4cmc seems high for it, too.
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One big thing I want to mention is the difference between 1v1 and multiplayer. In 1v1, this effect is never a drawback, because if attacking you is good for your opponent they would have done it without being forced, so your worst case scenario is that it just makes treasure (disclaimer: technically, your opponent may be inclined to misplay and not attack when they should, in which case the card forces them to play correctly, so the previous statement assumes you are playing against an opponent who is making the right plays). In multiplayer, however, there are more options on who to attack, so an attack being detrimental to you winning may not be in your opponents vest interest and thus would not have been made without the card. They may have wanted to attack a planeswalker or another player for some reason instead of you with that creature, and instead were forced to attack you. Maybe they had this one chance to get their voltron to connect with player A and knock them out of the game, but were forced to hit you instead. Maybe they needed to alpha strike to stop a walker from hitting its ult next turn but you forced one of their dudes at you instead.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I find Trove particularly good with Boros because they have advantage in combat manipulation, and artifact also aligns with other new cards like Treasure Map/Treasure Cove, fill in things Boros have trouble with (such as card drawing).
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Again, if attacking you were advantageous, your opponents would do it anyway.
(Sorry, it just bugs me how many people think "A creature must attack you each combat." is a downside.)
That said, it's definitely something I would play if I already had plenty of rattlesnake cards. Things like No Mercy and Isperia, Supreme Judge. If an opponent has nothing with flying, pro-artifacts, or daunt, I could use it with Stuffy Doll (and possibly Furnace of Rath).
On phasing:
"Everybody, you must attack me every turn! But this here doll says all the pain is going to YOU Steve, mwahahahaha!"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I prefer cards like grand melee and Fumiko the Lowblood for forcing combat, because it won't turn the game into archenemy.
I guess there is a little bit of synergy with kazuul, tyrant of the cliffs, but I would struggle to find a deck I would play this card in, even weaker decks.
EDIT: Added card tags
A few more ideas
Dueling Grounds (They can't full swing you)
Propaganda / Ghostly Prison (Your PWs are not safe, but you are)
As this point you are also gong 5 color, so Collective Restraint (Still good in 2 color though, just another Ghostly prison (though more expensive)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
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Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I'm not sure it would fit into a wide range of Zedruu decks, it would need to be in one that has lots of tokens or evasive creatures. Unless your donating to a creatureless or extremely creature light deck, it can end up hurting you if you donate it. I'd hate to get stuck in a situation where you are forced to attack in with Zedruu.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Why would you do that? Again, forcing players to do something they wouldn't normally do isn't a downside. Why does everyone keep treating that like it's a downside?
(It's no different than Lure forcing opponents to block one creature.)
On phasing:
Often times, people spread out their attacks. Forcing them to attack a specific player, even if only a tiny trickle gets through, will add up over time. I had a game recently where my early defenses were removed, and simply through opportunity hits for Sword of the Animist triggers and such, my life total dropped very quickly.
Forcing people to do something is most certainly a disadvantage for them. You're removing their options. Maybe they only have one creature and would rather hold it back for defense. Not anymore. Maybe they want to attack, but they'd rather attack someone else, like you. Now they can't. Every voltron deck now has a harder time killing someone who isn't who you've put a target on.
Lure on one of your creatures is most definitely a downside for your opponent - I don't understand how you could think otherwise? You now control the combat, and that is often used as either a killing blow, or a combo to kill all of your opponents' creatures.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I could see it being useful to give to someone else if you were already planning on hitting them with an evasion creature, or if they have a board presence and you want to force your other opponents to attack into it, I just think it would be more corner case than using it straight, because the treasure becomes a downside, and not one that can easily be used to your advantage.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!