Congratulations, your group made the mistake of allowing you to make her your general and ignoring rule 13 (cards that reference outside the game don't function). What they forgot is that you're an insufferable ******** with very deep pockets. So let's brew up the various ways that you're winning on the first turn. I'll start:
Ok, that gets her out turn one, barring a counterspell. Now we have 36 life left at the least, so that gives us 4 cards to grab. The simplest is to do something like (and thanks Wildfire for the suggestion):
Now that we have infinite mana and life, we're free to do whatever we want. Probably the easiest is to then grab Recurring Nightmare, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Kokusho, the Evening Star. Drop LED and RN, crack LED to bin Koko, then just loop Spike and Koko.
But what else can we do? The list I provided is a guaranteed turn 1 kill because it doesn't rely on your opening hand (there is enough ramp that you would have to really have bad luck to not mulligan into one piece of ramp). Ideally, we want to only focus on combos that you don't need to get lucky with and draw in your opening hand.
I'm sorry but how is Fastbond and Zuran Orb infinite? Fastbond doesn't allow you to play the lands from your deck or graveyard sooooooo.... What am i missing?
You could also most likely win off of Biorhythm. Looking over the list presented in the FAQ, you could Doomsday as well, using any of the Moxen or LED and a generic combo in your deck.
So we’re also assuming they’re ok with playing cards banned in commander, not just banned in other formats
I think that would be necessary, right? Spike gets cards banned or restricted in any constructed format and to suggest that you can't get cards banned in EDH would be kind of silly.
Besides, if you are playing with Spike, you are no longer playing Commander anyway. You are playing Un-Commander and Un-Commander has no banned cards (from a technical sense since it isn't really a format). If they are fine with Un cards, they should be fine with those Un cards doing what they do. If this card is a problem it can be (ironically) banned for that group.
In that same FAQ he gives a list of all cards that can be gotten with Spike and Crucible isnt on it. :\
I can see how the use of "has been banned" could be construed as any card that's been banned at any time even if it currently isn't, but I don't think that's the intent.
In that same FAQ he gives a list of all cards that can be gotten with Spike and Crucible isnt on it. :\
I can see how the use of "has been banned" could be construed as any card that's been banned at any time even if it currently isn't, but I don't think that's the intent.
If you don't think that is the intent then I would be curious to know where Kird Ape, all the Legends..legends, Zuran Orb, Ali from Cairo, and a bunch of others are currently banned or restricted.
The simpler explanation is that he just missed Crucible of Worlds for the same reason he missed Grindstone: Wizards doesn't control the format so they don't necessarily know the history.
So we’re also assuming they’re ok with playing cards banned in commander, not just banned in other formats
I think that would be necessary, right? Spike gets cards banned or restricted in any constructed format and to suggest that you can't get cards banned in EDH would be kind of silly.
Besides, if you are playing with Spike, you are no longer playing Commander anyway. You are playing Un-Commander and Un-Commander has no banned cards (from a technical sense since it isn't really a format). If they are fine with Un cards, they should be fine with those Un cards doing what they do. If this card is a problem it can be (ironically) banned for that group.
In other formats, if you want to use a wish you have to pull it from your sideboard. And sideboards must follow the deck construction rules for that format. So I think it's perfectly reasonable for your group to assume that you aren't allowed to put cards currently banned in commander in your wishboard even if you're running spike. Does that mean that now death wish can also now fetch banned cards where it previously couldn't? I'm just saying, this is not implied in including un-cards. You should get permission for using un-cards, wishes, AND banned cards in sideboards before doing this sort of thing because all 3 violate 3 different rules.
I guess you can argue that un-commander isn't a format and thus you can run whatever, but does that mean other players can run black lotus in the main? What about 50 of them? I think it's fair for your group to assume that un-commander follows the same rules as commander except that un-cards are allowed, which includes having the same banlist, lack of wishes, etc.
On his blog MaRo has stated that she can grab any card which has ever been banned, even if it was later unbanned. Any discussion about the semantics of the legality is irrelevsnt: in this scenario your group is allowing you to run Spike as a commander and letting you use her ability as intended to grab cards from outside the game. Continuing that topic is just spam which doesn't add to the thread, and I'll ask that if you don't have anything to contribute to my OP question, you simply don't contribute at all.
Add Gemstone Caverns as another T1 Spike enabler. Also Chrome Mox if you're willing to run more black cards and less swamps.
Assuming a stupid budget (or proxies), rocks with a net output of 4 mana (e.g. Mox Jet + Black Lotus) into Voltaic Key + Time Vault is my choice for the combo as it sticks within colour identity rules (how relevant that is will likely depend on your playgroup)
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Yeah, that's true. The thing with that is your're still grabbing 4 cards from outside the game, and at the end of it you've got almost no life, and staring at winning the game in anywhere between 42 an 63 turns with commander damage. I guess truthfully there isn't really anything interesting once you've got either infinite turns or infinite mana (you could even grab the 5 artifact lands for colored mana depending on whatever else you have outside the game). She really does live up to her name....
The quickest distance between two points is a straight line, and this is the straightest. It doesn't matter how you're winning. This lets you win because nobody else gets turns. You could go forty turns of Storm Crow beats, Spike commander damage, it doesn't matter because a win is a win.
tl;dr - key-vault is the only acceptable answer to the question "how should I build Spike, Tournament Grinder?"
The quickest distance between two points is a straight line, and this is the straightest. It doesn't matter how you're winning. This lets you win because nobody else gets turns. You could go forty turns of Storm Crow beats, Spike commander damage, it doesn't matter because a win is a win.
tl;dr - key-vault is the only acceptable answer to the question "how should I build Spike, Tournament Grinder?"
Yep. And there's nothing more Spike than paying 28 life (4 for Spike, 8 for Time Vault, 8 for Voltaic Key, and 8 for a Black Lotus) to win quick and dirty.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm betting that once Oracle is updated along with the release of Unstable on Dec. 8th, they'll probably release rules for each Un-Format. It was already hinted that there'd be Un-Commander, Un-Standard, Un-Modern, etc. If you're planning to build Spike, Tournament Grinder as a commander, then chances are you'll probably clear a lot of question on game day.
For the moment, I recommend you keep it safe and simple by sticking to at least the spirit of EDH which is color identity. So if you're going to wish for things with Spike, do so with color identity in mind. That being said, I think that the best combo was already established (Mox Jet + Black Lotus + Voltaic Key + Time Vault). Although, if you want to go for a cheaper alternative, Mox Diamond, Blacker Lotus, Voltaic Key, and Time Vault.
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OK, lets try this for style points. Winning via Battle of Wits by getting infinite life and mana (Fastbond+Crucible of the Worlds+Zuran Orb), pulling more than 110 cards into your hand, then taking an extra turn via Time Walk, making sure to get Kozilek, Butcher of Truth from library and discard him along with 110 other cards from your hand and then winning in your next upkeep.
Staring hand:
Lions Eye Diamond
From Library:
Battle of Wits
Crucible of the Worlds
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Banned Cards:
Black Lotus
Fastbond
Seat of the Synod
Zuran Orb (Ice Age Block)
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
OK, lets try this for style points. Winning via Battle of Wits by getting infinite life and mana (Fastbond+Crucible of the Worlds+Zuran Orb), pulling more than 110 cards into your hand, then taking an extra turn via Time Walk, making sure to get Kozilek, Butcher of Truth from library and discard him along with 110 other cards from your hand and then winning in your next upkeep.
Staring hand:
Lions Eye Diamond
From Library:
Battle of Wits
Crucible of the Worlds
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Banned Cards:
Black Lotus
Fastbond
Seat of the Synod
Zuran Orb (Ice Age Block)
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Okay now my question
Has eeryone forgotten about te fact that Spike s black? You cannot run battle of wits in your deck.
Well apparently MaRo rules that she can't find cards from the format you're playing. So that just ruins any fun of having with her. I would legitimately run her just to use Recurring Nightmare, Library of Alexandria, and Griselbees.
Well apparently MaRo rules that she can't find cards from the format you're playing. So that just ruins any fun of having with her. I would legitimately run her just to use Recurring Nightmare, Library of Alexandria, and Griselbees.
I'm lost, do you mean that she can only wish for cards that are banned in the format you're currently playing?
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1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
89 Swamp
Ok, that gets her out turn one, barring a counterspell. Now we have 36 life left at the least, so that gives us 4 cards to grab. The simplest is to do something like (and thanks Wildfire for the suggestion):
Pull Black Lotus from outside the game (for GGG)
Pull and cast Fastbond
Play a land from your hand
Pull and cast Zuran Orb (banned in Ice Age block)
Pull and cast Crucible of Worlds
Now that we have infinite mana and life, we're free to do whatever we want. Probably the easiest is to then grab Recurring Nightmare, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Kokusho, the Evening Star. Drop LED and RN, crack LED to bin Koko, then just loop Spike and Koko.
But what else can we do? The list I provided is a guaranteed turn 1 kill because it doesn't rely on your opening hand (there is enough ramp that you would have to really have bad luck to not mulligan into one piece of ramp). Ideally, we want to only focus on combos that you don't need to get lucky with and draw in your opening hand.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
You could also most likely win off of Biorhythm. Looking over the list presented in the FAQ, you could Doomsday as well, using any of the Moxen or LED and a generic combo in your deck.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Time vault is a 2-card combo that also costs 4. Maybe fastbond is slightly better since it gives another land drop, but it’s kinda the same thing.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=772
Obviously, they ended up banning Fastbond eventually, but it was banned at one point.
I think that would be necessary, right? Spike gets cards banned or restricted in any constructed format and to suggest that you can't get cards banned in EDH would be kind of silly.
Besides, if you are playing with Spike, you are no longer playing Commander anyway. You are playing Un-Commander and Un-Commander has no banned cards (from a technical sense since it isn't really a format). If they are fine with Un cards, they should be fine with those Un cards doing what they do. If this card is a problem it can be (ironically) banned for that group.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I can see how the use of "has been banned" could be construed as any card that's been banned at any time even if it currently isn't, but I don't think that's the intent.
The simpler explanation is that he just missed Crucible of Worlds for the same reason he missed Grindstone: Wizards doesn't control the format so they don't necessarily know the history.
I guess you can argue that un-commander isn't a format and thus you can run whatever, but does that mean other players can run black lotus in the main? What about 50 of them? I think it's fair for your group to assume that un-commander follows the same rules as commander except that un-cards are allowed, which includes having the same banlist, lack of wishes, etc.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Assuming a stupid budget (or proxies), rocks with a net output of 4 mana (e.g. Mox Jet + Black Lotus) into Voltaic Key + Time Vault is my choice for the combo as it sticks within colour identity rules (how relevant that is will likely depend on your playgroup)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
On phasing:
Yeah, that's true. The thing with that is your're still grabbing 4 cards from outside the game, and at the end of it you've got almost no life, and staring at winning the game in anywhere between 42 an 63 turns with commander damage. I guess truthfully there isn't really anything interesting once you've got either infinite turns or infinite mana (you could even grab the 5 artifact lands for colored mana depending on whatever else you have outside the game). She really does live up to her name....
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The quickest distance between two points is a straight line, and this is the straightest. It doesn't matter how you're winning. This lets you win because nobody else gets turns. You could go forty turns of Storm Crow beats, Spike commander damage, it doesn't matter because a win is a win.
tl;dr - key-vault is the only acceptable answer to the question "how should I build Spike, Tournament Grinder?"
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Yep. And there's nothing more Spike than paying 28 life (4 for Spike, 8 for Time Vault, 8 for Voltaic Key, and 8 for a Black Lotus) to win quick and dirty.
More complicated, but unique, wins are another psychographic profile.
On phasing:
For the moment, I recommend you keep it safe and simple by sticking to at least the spirit of EDH which is color identity. So if you're going to wish for things with Spike, do so with color identity in mind. That being said, I think that the best combo was already established (Mox Jet + Black Lotus + Voltaic Key + Time Vault). Although, if you want to go for a cheaper alternative, Mox Diamond, Blacker Lotus, Voltaic Key, and Time Vault.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Fetch:
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Staring hand:
Lions Eye Diamond
From Library:
Battle of Wits
Crucible of the Worlds
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Banned Cards:
Black Lotus
Fastbond
Seat of the Synod
Zuran Orb (Ice Age Block)
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Okay now my question
Has eeryone forgotten about te fact that Spike s black? You cannot run battle of wits in your deck.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I'm lost, do you mean that she can only wish for cards that are banned in the format you're currently playing?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!