Just came upon Soul Snare in my research. Wouldn't this make more sense than Path to Exile? It acts as another enchantment while keeping opponents away. I know it ties up one W mana and it cannot handle a passive, problematic creature, but its low cost appeals to me (and it can also be reused in conjunction with Sun Titan). Your thoughts?
I have thought of running this in my own Daxos build. It's very much a proactive card, like Ghostly Prison, as opposed to something reactive like Path to Exile. Honestly, I would never cut every reactive piece of removal in my deck just for the Enchantment synergy, however, I have thought of running this one, as it's much easier to recur in this deck, and it can definitely make someone think twice about attacking you, especially with something important.
Honestly, looking at your last deck list post, my suggestion would be cutting Death Grasp. While the life gain can be useful, you have other, much better, sources of single target removal with Path to Exile, Utter End, and Mortify.
Another card I use beyond what you have in the deck to discourage attacks, and also can work to make combat a nightmare for your opponents, is Archetype of Finality. While it's expensive, it can be very effective.
I have thought of running this in my own Daxos build. It's very much a proactive card, like Ghostly Prison, as opposed to something reactive like Path to Exile. Honestly, I would never cut every reactive piece of removal in my deck just for the Enchantment synergy.
The reason I am thinking to add it is that I noticed in playtesting over the past 2 days that sometimes I lack enchantments. I have not seen this card in any Daxos deck so far, so maybe I am mistaken...
Another card I use beyond what you have in the deck to discourage attacks, and also can work to make combat a nightmare for your opponents, is Archetype of Finality. While it's expensive, it can be very effective.
I initially ran that archetype but lyonheart and rumpy's helpful comments have convinced me to remove it. I may run it again as I agree with you, it can truly act as a great rattlesnake.
I'd rather run Condemn before running Soul Snare. But that's assuming I'm already running Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, and any other instant spot removal that's better than Condemn and still, for some reason, need more spot removal.
Soul Snare may be a rattlesnake, but it wouldn't be a very good one, I bet, but that's playgroup dependent. Sometimes the creature you need gone is Guttersnipe or Purphoros (if they manage let him become a creature), which are not going to attack you. And a green deck will just blow up the Snare before attacking. Spot removal is one of the things that usually shouldn't be telegraphed, if possible. Wonderfully repeatable stuff like Attrition are one of the exceptions.
Soul Snare may be a rattlesnake, but it wouldn't be a very good one, I bet, but that's playgroup dependent. Sometimes the creature you need gone is Guttersnipe or Purphoros (if they manage let him become a creature), which are not going to attack you. And a green deck will just blow up the Snare before attacking.
My thoughts exactly about Purphy, that's a good example (as I was saying about "passive" creatures)... Also great comment about someone destroying the Snare before an attack. Nevertheless, I may still run it in addition to Path to Exile... The question is, what to remove... After some real-life playtesting, I will have a better idea about which card(s) not worth keeping.
One question for you, as I asked earlier, in your experience hasn't attrition become difficult/impossible to use at a key moment due to the lack of creatures to sack? The deck is creature light and without Spirit tokens, it does nothing. Just curious...
I like Darkprophet's suggestion of cutting Death Grasp. We're going to start sounding like broken records about Anguished Unmaking, though.
Attrition is a YMMV card. It would be quite useful for me in my playgroup, but I somehow haven't even drawn it yet. Even without playing it, you could make a note to yourself to analyze during your games every problematic creature you would want to destroy if you had Attrition in play, and split the count between valid and invalid targets for Attrition. The ratio of invalid:valid targets should help you make a more informed decision. The easiest place to start this analysis is with the other commanders in your playgroup.
[quote from="lyonhaert »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/785655-advise-needed-for-daxos-the-returned-deck?comment=55"]One question for you, as I asked earlier, in your experience hasn't attrition become difficult/impossible to use at a key moment due to the lack of creatures to sack? The deck is creature light and without Spirit tokens, it does nothing. Just curious...
Not really, no. IME you're much more likely to wish it didn't have that stupid "nonblack" clause. You don't need to kill every creature you see, just the creatures that are a problem if they stick around.
SO, for these reasons, I am thinking to try Death Grasp, not so much to deal with a creature, moreso to fling the damage at an opponent when I have many lands in play. Perhaps I will remove it once playtesting has shown its limits. I wish there was another key enchantment with Lifelink... Do you think that griselbrand should be added ?
SO, for these reasons, I am thinking to try Death Grasp, not so much to deal with a creature, moreso to fling the damage at an opponent when I have many lands in play. Perhaps I will remove it once playtesting has shown its limits. I wish there was another key enchantment with Lifelink...
Lifegain is possibly just a bandaid — it depends entirely on whether that cost of life for cards is helping you win or helping you lose. If you lose games quite often because you lose so much life that it's easy for your opponents to finish you off and you rarely win, then it could be a problem, but may also need a different solution (see below). However if you're still winning an appropriate percentage of games and just happen to be low, then there isn't really a problem. As in, welcome to card draw in B. My favorite deck is monoblack and it taught me my life is as much a resource at my disposal as mana is.
Keep track of how much life you spend on your stuff and how much life you lose due to opponents (maybe use pen and paper and next to each life total change for your life put "me"/"them" and do the math later). If the majority of that life lost is from your stuff, then why aren't you winning with all that card draw? If it's mostly from them, what is the source of the life loss and is there already an answer to it in the deck? Is it instead "political" — e.g. you draw so much early on that your opponents see you as a threat and gang up.
If a bit more lifegain truly is the solution, then I prefer more permanent ones that keep giving versus the one-time spells — Basilisk Collar, Noble Purpose, Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Gray Merchant is probably the best of these. I don't run any of these, but I don't run Noble Purpose because I don't run True Conviction for its lifelink but rather the double strike.
It's been a while since I last tweaked the deck. So far, it is going much better, thanks to your help!
I would like your advise about Profane Procession. As soon as I saw it spoiled, I thought it might be interesting to try it in this deck. It is a bit expense at 5 mana to activate (and it does nothing when it enters play), however it could potentially ruin an opponents' plans while providing me with some juicy creatures. In the mid to late game, I could possibly have enough mana to rapidly transform the card within 2 turns or so...
Didn't know you didn't run Attrition before. In that case - yes, it's a solid effect to have around. You can hold up the mana, people will get a little jittery around it, and then if you don't need to use it you promptly sink it into spirits in the end step before your turn. The Daxos independence is nice too. Worth running for sure.
It's been awhile since I tinkered with my Daxos deck. It was kinda bad and lacked focus to properly establish itself. I am posting my latest revision, and would like some feedback, if possible from 2 persons which really helped me a lot with their past helpful comments: Rumpy5897 and Lyonhaert. Thanks to you both, I have finally focused the deck to become a better pillowfort-control build and try to win with tokens. Before, I was all over the place with too many ideas, which did not provide good results. So, if you have a few minutes to review it and let me know your thoughts, I would greatly appreciate. Of course, anyone else is welcome to comment!
I would definitely catch up with Rumpy's thread and Tev's thread. Nearly every card in your list has been discussed before, especially in Rumpy's thread.
My build (now benched and a few cards used for other projects) was mostly like Rumpy's with a few differences (example: Cover of Darkness). To be brief, I don't think I would run about a quarter of the cards you have here. I'll just give two examples, because I think it does one good to read those threads and they're not terribly long (or search them for specific card names).
1: Aurification is not very potent. It doesn't stop creatures dealing non-combat damage, and the problem is easily solved by removing this enchantment from the battlefield. No Mercy is a better option, for example.
2: Luminarch Ascension as soon as this hits the table you're going to have a target on you because it puts everybody else on a pretty blatant clock before you start throwing angels at everybody. Opponent reading: "hurt this guy's life total to prevent him from making angels". This one has definitely been discussed heavily - at least in the early pages - of Rumpy's thread.
NB: I didn't bench/disassemble the deck because I didn't like it. It's still an awesome take on Daxos that behaves somewhat like a sliver deck but with enchantments. I just have gravitated more toward decks that do crazy stuff and don't protract the game too much, and control/prison does the opposite.
I can see what you're going for, the list does seem more cohesive. However, you've still got some weird stuff kicking around. I will never understand your love for those 6cmc wipes that aren't Extinguish All Hope. For whatever reason, you kept those in over Rout. You reintroduced Archetype of Finality yet lost Razaketh, the Foulblooded. A number of sections in my previous posts in the thread still hold true, so you can re-read those if you want. I'll add some more findings from more recent times:
Surprise surprise, having a mana sink out of the command zone makes the deck really like its mana. I caved in and put in Cabal Coffers (with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth already waiting in the 99), plus Deserted Temple for overkill. Weathered Wayfarer is now a very serious threat. Let it live a few turn cycles and things are looking pretty good. Splurging for full fetches + Crucible of Worlds is probably overkill though. On a similar note, the consistent land get of Sword of Rampant Growth is not to be underestimated.
Another thing that's helped the consistency of my build is more focus on card selection. Sensei's Divining Top crutches a bit on the whole fetches + Crucible setup of infinite money to be a relevant recommendation, but you could easily slot in Doom Whisperer. Skim useless stuff off the top when everything is under control, dig hard for an out if in dire straits.
Some other choice recent includes are Smothering Tithe, Cathars' Crusade and Slaughter the Strong. Smothering Tithe keeps you rubber banded to decks that typically slip out the easiest from my build's speed bumps, and can build up to ludicrous levels. Who would have thought that people tend to draw cards in EDH. Cathars' Crusade is a one-card win con, and it helps me feel better about missing experience counters if Daxos gets hated out. It's a beautiful little manifestation of inevitability, even if it comes with some logistics annoyances. Slaughter the Strong is a brutal board gut that Daxos lives through.
My meta hates Teferi's Protection by now. A hilarious catch-all answer, most recently won me the game as a simple fog. Dodge board resets, fireballs, whatever is being problematic at the moment. It costs a pretty penny though, thanks to its relative scarcity.
Thanks for the prompt replies, I wasn't sure if you were around lately.
I agree with most comments, however I am trying to avoid pricy cards for the moment, having already spent a lot of dineros to build the deck. I will however reuse Razaketh and Sword of Rampant Growth, as they were shifted to other decks. I also see the value with Slaughter the Strong, this one is a definite shoe-in. For the record, the 6CC board wipes don't really bother me, but I may try to swap a few for *** and Fumigate, for example.
The biggest concern I should have mentioned is against flying, as my opponents usually pack several creatures with this ability. There isn't much out there to solve this problem, other than pricy cards such as Akroma's Memorial and Eldrazi Monument. Any thoughts on this?
Has anyone here considered a daxos deck that focuses on death triggers/constellation triggers by using daxos as a source of these with zero experience counters? I have been theorycrafting a daxos the returned that focuses on solemnity to prevent the experience counters. I was thinking of cards like black market (yes, I know there is dis-synergy with solemnity, but very likely I won't see both every game and it's a good card), grave pact and cousins, etc.
Has anyone here considered a daxos deck that focuses on death triggers/constellation triggers by using daxos as a source of these with zero experience counters? I have been theorycrafting a daxos the returned that focuses on solemnity to prevent the experience counters. I was thinking of cards like black market (yes, I know there is dis-synergy with solemnity, but very likely I won't see both every game and it's a good card), grave pact and cousins, etc.
May not come together as easily as described, as the Grave Pacts, Solemnity etc are all enchantments, which will make trying to time them around Daxos awkward when you deliberately want to not get experience. It'd probably be more reliable to go deep on free sac outlets (Altar of Dementia, Martyr's Cause, what have you) and use that as one of the deck's possible modes of operation. That, and the fierce Starfield of Nyx nonbo does what you want as well
I understand that it is difficult. That is the real attraction for me. I probably wouldn't cast daxos until I could get some serious value out of it (or could sack the daxos letting me play more enchantments as needed). I guess I could always use spreading plague with a way to make daxos indestructible. My opponents would surely hate me though.
I have pondered your latest comments since last week and I am now commited to invest a bit more money to make the deck truly shine. I have about 70$'s worth of cards to trade, so if I were to ask which cards should be added without a doubt, what would be your recommendations? Maybe 5-6 cards, or more if this fits into the alloted budget. I don't want to make the deck become so annoying that I get targeted from the start, but if you think a card really needs a spot, don't hesitate to mention it.
All those sound commendable. The good thing is that all your new acquisitions are all-purpose, and if you get bored of Daxos they can easily provide great value in other decks or serve as strong trade fodder.
Honestly, looking at your last deck list post, my suggestion would be cutting Death Grasp. While the life gain can be useful, you have other, much better, sources of single target removal with Path to Exile, Utter End, and Mortify.
Another card I use beyond what you have in the deck to discourage attacks, and also can work to make combat a nightmare for your opponents, is Archetype of Finality. While it's expensive, it can be very effective.
hope this helps!
Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
Pauper - B Pestilence
Pauper - W Steel Soldiers
EDH - W Isamaru, Hound of Konda 1V1
EDH - GRB Kresh the Bloodbraided
EDH - GW Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
EDH - UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDH - RB Lyzolda, The Blood Witch
EDH - UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster (Reworking)
EDH - UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
EDH - UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif
EDH - BGR Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Pauper EDH - G Garruk's Packleader
Pauper EDH - RG Bloodbraid Elf
CUBE:
500 Peasant Cube (52% Foil) Cube Tutor Page
I initially ran that archetype but lyonheart and rumpy's helpful comments have convinced me to remove it. I may run it again as I agree with you, it can truly act as a great rattlesnake.
PS: Do you have a link to your decklist?
Soul Snare may be a rattlesnake, but it wouldn't be a very good one, I bet, but that's playgroup dependent. Sometimes the creature you need gone is Guttersnipe or Purphoros (if they manage let him become a creature), which are not going to attack you. And a green deck will just blow up the Snare before attacking. Spot removal is one of the things that usually shouldn't be telegraphed, if possible. Wonderfully repeatable stuff like Attrition are one of the exceptions.
Stuff like Sphere of Safety, Ghostly Prison, and No Mercy are all better at sending attacks elsewhere, usually.
Edit: Test it if you want and see if it's useful. Hypothesizing about the usefulness of cards only goes so far since our circumstances are different.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
One question for you, as I asked earlier, in your experience hasn't attrition become difficult/impossible to use at a key moment due to the lack of creatures to sack? The deck is creature light and without Spirit tokens, it does nothing. Just curious...
Attrition is a YMMV card. It would be quite useful for me in my playgroup, but I somehow haven't even drawn it yet. Even without playing it, you could make a note to yourself to analyze during your games every problematic creature you would want to destroy if you had Attrition in play, and split the count between valid and invalid targets for Attrition. The ratio of invalid:valid targets should help you make a more informed decision. The easiest place to start this analysis is with the other commanders in your playgroup.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
SO, for these reasons, I am thinking to try Death Grasp, not so much to deal with a creature, moreso to fling the damage at an opponent when I have many lands in play. Perhaps I will remove it once playtesting has shown its limits. I wish there was another key enchantment with Lifelink... Do you think that griselbrand should be added ?
Keep track of how much life you spend on your stuff and how much life you lose due to opponents (maybe use pen and paper and next to each life total change for your life put "me"/"them" and do the math later). If the majority of that life lost is from your stuff, then why aren't you winning with all that card draw? If it's mostly from them, what is the source of the life loss and is there already an answer to it in the deck? Is it instead "political" — e.g. you draw so much early on that your opponents see you as a threat and gang up.
If a bit more lifegain truly is the solution, then I prefer more permanent ones that keep giving versus the one-time spells — Basilisk Collar, Noble Purpose, Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Gray Merchant is probably the best of these. I don't run any of these, but I don't run Noble Purpose because I don't run True Conviction for its lifelink but rather the double strike.
He's banned.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
It's been a while since I last tweaked the deck. So far, it is going much better, thanks to your help!
I would like your advise about Profane Procession. As soon as I saw it spoiled, I thought it might be interesting to try it in this deck. It is a bit expense at 5 mana to activate (and it does nothing when it enters play), however it could potentially ruin an opponents' plans while providing me with some juicy creatures. In the mid to late game, I could possibly have enough mana to rapidly transform the card within 2 turns or so...
Do you think it deserves a spot?
Cheers
Nevermind, I just read your post dated Jan. 3rd...
I will add the card once it comes out tomorrow. Can't wait to try it out!
It's been awhile since I tinkered with my Daxos deck. It was kinda bad and lacked focus to properly establish itself. I am posting my latest revision, and would like some feedback, if possible from 2 persons which really helped me a lot with their past helpful comments: Rumpy5897 and Lyonhaert. Thanks to you both, I have finally focused the deck to become a better pillowfort-control build and try to win with tokens. Before, I was all over the place with too many ideas, which did not provide good results. So, if you have a few minutes to review it and let me know your thoughts, I would greatly appreciate. Of course, anyone else is welcome to comment!
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Ajani's Chosen
1 Archetype of Courage
1 Archetype of Finality
1 Celestial Ancient
1 Daxos the Returned
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Mesa Enchantress
1 Sun Titan
1 Treasury Thrull
Enchantments
1 Anointed Procession
1 Aura of Silence
1 Aurification
1 Authority of the Consuls
1 Banishing Light
1 Blind Obedience
1 Cho-Manno's Blessing
1 Flickering Ward
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Gossamer Chains
1 Grasp of Fate
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Greed
1 Intangible Virtue
1 Karmic Justice
1 Kismet
1 Land Tax
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Martyr's Cause
1 Mystic Barrier
1 Necropotence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Profane Procession
1 Reconnaissance
1 Righteous Aura
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Shielded by Faith
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Skybind
1 Spear of Heliod
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Story Circle
1 True Conviction
1 Underworld Connections
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Extinguish All Hope
1 Kirtar's Wrath
1 Life's Finale
1 Mortify
1 Path to Exile
1 Replenish
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Utter End
1 Vindicate
Artifacts
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Expedition Map
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sol Ring
Lands
1 Caves of Koilos
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Godless Shrine
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Orzhov Guildgate
11 Plains
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Serra's Sanctum
11 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of the False God
1 Vault of the Archangel
Thanks !
My build (now benched and a few cards used for other projects) was mostly like Rumpy's with a few differences (example: Cover of Darkness). To be brief, I don't think I would run about a quarter of the cards you have here. I'll just give two examples, because I think it does one good to read those threads and they're not terribly long (or search them for specific card names).
1: Aurification is not very potent. It doesn't stop creatures dealing non-combat damage, and the problem is easily solved by removing this enchantment from the battlefield. No Mercy is a better option, for example.
2: Luminarch Ascension as soon as this hits the table you're going to have a target on you because it puts everybody else on a pretty blatant clock before you start throwing angels at everybody. Opponent reading: "hurt this guy's life total to prevent him from making angels". This one has definitely been discussed heavily - at least in the early pages - of Rumpy's thread.
NB: I didn't bench/disassemble the deck because I didn't like it. It's still an awesome take on Daxos that behaves somewhat like a sliver deck but with enchantments. I just have gravitated more toward decks that do crazy stuff and don't protract the game too much, and control/prison does the opposite.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I agree with most comments, however I am trying to avoid pricy cards for the moment, having already spent a lot of dineros to build the deck. I will however reuse Razaketh and Sword of Rampant Growth, as they were shifted to other decks. I also see the value with Slaughter the Strong, this one is a definite shoe-in. For the record, the 6CC board wipes don't really bother me, but I may try to swap a few for *** and Fumigate, for example.
The biggest concern I should have mentioned is against flying, as my opponents usually pack several creatures with this ability. There isn't much out there to solve this problem, other than pricy cards such as Akroma's Memorial and Eldrazi Monument. Any thoughts on this?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
May not come together as easily as described, as the Grave Pacts, Solemnity etc are all enchantments, which will make trying to time them around Daxos awkward when you deliberately want to not get experience. It'd probably be more reliable to go deep on free sac outlets (Altar of Dementia, Martyr's Cause, what have you) and use that as one of the deck's possible modes of operation. That, and the fierce Starfield of Nyx nonbo does what you want as well
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I have pondered your latest comments since last week and I am now commited to invest a bit more money to make the deck truly shine. I have about 70$'s worth of cards to trade, so if I were to ask which cards should be added without a doubt, what would be your recommendations? Maybe 5-6 cards, or more if this fits into the alloted budget. I don't want to make the deck become so annoying that I get targeted from the start, but if you think a card really needs a spot, don't hesitate to mention it.
For sure, Weathered Wayfarer earns a spot, so Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is another card I think will be added. Do you agree with either Akroma's Memorial and/or Eldrazi Monument?
I think Daxos deserves greatness, so thanks again for your assistance!
Cheers
Weathered Wayfarer
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Smothering Tithe
Doom Whisperer
Slaughter the Strong
Eldrazi Monument
I will add to the deck the above, plus:
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Sword of the Animist
Thoughtrender Lamia
These were scavenged from 2 decks:
Cabal Coffers
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Removing lesser interesting cards as per your suggestions. Complete decklist here: https://deckbox.org/sets/1996900
Any comments are still welcome, but I think I now have something approaching Tev and Rumpy's decks.