I need your input for my deck. I believe I had an interesting build based on Daxos The Returned, you can see it in the below link. The deck can function pretty well, but there is a huge weakness that totally decimates it. The problem card is merciless eviction as it exiles my entire board. I have no way to come back from this kind of blow and ask if you know of a way to prevent this?
Not enough teeth. A lot of defensive stuff but not as much offensive stuff.
Not enough card draw.
No tutors to find answers.
Answers are stilted toward prison Auras and Banishing Light-style spot removal, but with only one board wipe. Spot removal like Anguished Unmaking, Swords, Path, Utter End, etc. mean things won't come back. In other words, "until this leaves" answers like prison Auras and Banishing Light actually encourage enchantment destruction/exile.
No ramp.
Not enough value engine pieces to make Daxos's ability more amazing. Skybind and Cloudstone Curio are great as Daxos engine pieces, but the list wouldn't be where it needs to be with just those two.
I imagine you have to more-or-less play out your hand to get enough impact on the board, so when that wipe comes you have little or nothing left and can't recover a significant board presence quickly enough because you run out of gas. Also, while Daxos can quickly recover spirits after a creature wipe, he's mana hungry and needs time and ramp to get there. Enchantments that slow down the game help a lot there, but just to buy time to get other support in place.
Frankly, I would be cutting and replacing a lot of cards, including in the manabase.
Indeed, I tried to use a prison style route for the deck, thinking that the low mana cost of each card such as banishing light would be a good idea. When that did not pan out, I then shifted my focus on enchantment creatures. I realize that there is not enough punch as most creatures are rather passive. As for the mana ramp, I recently added some great cards such as land tax, Black Market and Serra's Sanctum, however it might not be enough. I have a few tutors and card draw so I am not sure what more to add, other than Enlightened Tutor (can't afford Diabolic Tutor).
The decklists you provided seem rather creature light, and perhaps too reliant on Dax's creature churning. I wanted to have a way to win without him, but maybe that is not the way to go... I will think about it.
Indeed, I tried to use a prison style route for the deck, thinking that the low mana cost of each card such as banishing light would be a good idea. When that did not pan out, I then shifted my focus on enchantment creatures. I realize that there is not enough punch as most creatures are rather passive. As for the mana ramp, I recently added some great cards such as land tax, Black Market and Serra's Sanctum, however it might not be enough.
Prison and pillow fort are good approaches, I just think the cards used should have a wider impact to be effective at giving the deck a chance to get going.
Land Tax, Black Market, and Serra's Sanctum shouldn't be considered ramp. Sanctum should barely be considered a land, like Cabal Coffers — it's more like a ritual as only produces mana if you have enchantments. Land Tax is a tutor and in some circumstances can improve card advantage, but it doesn't put those lands in play.
The decklists you provided seem rather creature light, and perhaps too reliant on Dax's creature churning. I wanted to have a way to win without him, but maybe that is not the way to go... I will think about it.
I'm not saying your list should be like those, but I wanted you to see what cards they're using and how they're balanced between different effects. One of the things they do is the engines like Skybind that can be triggered with Daxos's ability at instant speed can also help protect him be moving him out of the way of targeted removal or a wipe. Heliod can trigger them, too.
You do have good cards in your deck. It's just leaning in certain directions too hard, which opened up weaknesses.
As far as the enchantment creatures goes, some are very handy and some definitely don't do enough. So if don't want to be too reliant on Daxos, what other creatures and wincons in WB could be included that work with the enchantments? There are some different things you can do in that space such as demons, angels, more tokens, etc.
Not in its own thread here, but I based it on Rumpy's and it's still really close to that list except for a handful of cards — things like testing Dauthi Embrace and Cover of Darkness and seeing if I can still close out games without True Conviction.
I don't run those in Daxos, but instead try not to overextend on playing enchantment cards and try to leave mana up for rebuilding spirits. Because sometimes I'm the one casting the board wipe.
I know other cards could be changed, but I don't want to spend a fortune to fetch the best solutions out there. I would like your advise on this build and maybe have your opinion on which cards that still don't make enough sense to stay. I know for sure that skybind will be added as I see its great potential.
Oblivion Ring + Leonin Relic-Warder + Journey to Nowhere for infinite Constellation triggers. (It's surprisingly difficult to pull off a triple-Oblivion Ring loop in singleton, since so many cards with a similar effect can't target your own permanents.)
Martyr's Cause has been an incredibly useful enchantment in my Daxos deck. It halts voltron decks in their tracks, and cuts the effectiveness of red board wipes in half. Similarly, Attrition is nice repeatable removal.
Martyr's Cause has been an incredibly useful enchantment in my Daxos deck. It halts voltron decks in their tracks, and cuts the effectiveness of red board wipes in half. Similarly, Attrition is nice repeatable removal.
I have to agree with your above comments, but I have to mention that the Ram does a good job in the early game and acts as a speedbumb later on. It is not amazing but is has saved my ass enough times to warrant a spot.
I have to agree with your above comments, but I have to mention that the Ram does a good job in the early game and acts as a speedbumb later on. It is not amazing but is has saved my ass enough times to warrant a spot.
The question this raises for me is how this lowly Ram manages to rate comparable to X/X spirits.
I'm curious about some statistics and context for your games with this deck, actually. Where in the spectrum of power level in your playgroup(s) does this deck fall? How often is it victorious? What portion of victories are achieved through combat with the spirit tokens? How many experience counters do you have at the end of a game on average, approximately?
I would say that the Ram is not THAT great, but I think I still need a few low CC creatures for the early game. Don't you agree? Before I can start churning out spirit tokens, I need to cast Daxos, then an enchantment, then pay 1WB. This can take 2-3 turns and the 1st token is only a lowly 1/1 at that point. Do you have a better strategy to make things more efficient? What would you replace the Ram with?
As for the deck, it has only been played 5-6 times so far, so there is not enough stats to provide a proven track record (I would say 2 wins / 4 loses). I can usually crank up the experience counters to 6-7 on average. The spirit tokens have not been that useful at dealing damage as of yet, more often being used for defense. I haven't played so far the 2 creatures which provide 1st strike / deathtouch (they were added recently), I guess they will help make my tokens more efficient.
My opponents have well tuned decks but nothing truly devastating. We don't play infinite combos. As for the decks they use, 2-3 opponents have better creatures (namely one dragon deck, but that one is slow), while another has mostly control decks (Vathi, Merieke, Phelddagrif). The only card which has truly screwed me over twice so far is merciless eviction as mentioned in my OP, used in a deck with Atraxa and loads of PW. Your reply has exposed other weaknesses and my latest build should help gradually turn things around. I added mana rocks and swaped some lands to improve further. I also included several board wipes. I will test the deck again tonight, but if you have some time, I would greatly appreciate if you could point out which cards are still bad in your opinion, or should be changed. I will switch the Ram for a Eidolon of Rhetoric in the meantime.
As for the deck, it has only been played 5-6 times so far, so there is not enough stats to provide a proven track record (I would say 2 wins / 4 loses). I can usually crank up the experience counters to 6-7 on average. The spirit tokens have not been that useful at dealing damage as of yet, more often being used for defense. I haven't played so far the 2 creatures which provide 1st strike / deathtouch (they were added recently), I guess they will help make my tokens more efficient.
That's pretty good. That's about how many experience counters I get up to without shenanigans. But I also tend to hold back some stuff in hand instead of spamming it for counters.
I would say that the Ram is not THAT great, but I think I still need a few low CC creatures for the early game. Don't you agree? Before I can start churning out spirit tokens, I need to cast Daxos, then an enchantment, then pay 1WB. This can take 2-3 turns and the 1st token is only a lowly 1/1 at that point. Do you have a better strategy to make things more efficient? What would you replace the Ram with?
[... snip ...]
My opponents have well tuned decks but nothing truly devastating. We don't play infinite combos. As for the decks they use, 2-3 opponents have better creatures (namely one dragon deck, but that one is slow), while another has mostly control decks (Vathi, Merieke, Phelddagrif). The only card which has truly screwed me over twice so far is merciless eviction as mentioned in my OP, used in a deck with Atraxa and loads of PW. Your reply has exposed other weaknesses and my latest build should help gradually turn things around. I added mana rocks and swaped some lands to improve further. I also included several board wipes. I will test the deck again tonight, but if you have some time, I would greatly appreciate if you could point out which cards are still bad in your opinion, or should be changed. I will switch the Ram for a Eidolon of Rhetoric in the meantime.
Many thanks Lyonhaert!
Early Drops —
The problem I see with the Ram as a blocker is that nobody is scared of it because it has no power and no evasion. As a fragile, cheap permanent that triggers lifegain stuff, it could be useful in a lifegain package (though I'd prefer Ajani's Mantra in said package). There's nothing for your opponent to lose by attacking into it, so it doesn't deter attacks but marginally. In my list I find Academy Rector to be a good creature deterrent from attacks, because nobody wants to help me tutor an enchantment directly to the battlefield. Nobody even wants to block it, so I'll attach Sword of the Animist to it and attack planeswalkers and stuff if I have other blockers. I realize it's 4 mana and outside your budget, but the point is it carries consequences that opponents want to avoid. Vampire Nighthawk could be an excellent early drop that blocks way better than the Ram, plus it carries that Sword well.
Creatures like Eidolon of Rhetoric/Spirit of the Labyrinth, however, can encourage an attack because they cause a problem for your opponents whether they attack you or not. Forcing you to block is one of the cheapest ways to remove them.
Creatures are not the only early drops to consider, though. You can also slow down your opponents with early enchantments like Authority of the Consuls and Blind Obedience. Phyrexian Reclamation reduces the impact of losing nontoken creatures to the graveyard.
Early game is definitely tricky with Daxos. Once in a while it's not ideal to cast him and I have to wait until I can resolve him and immediately follow it up with a low-cost enchantment to get that first experience counter. Sometimes I can't wait and need to lay down a disruption or defense piece before I even cast Daxos. You need time to build up and, aside from ramp, effects fall into the two camps of "slow opponents down" and "keep them away from me". What I have to disrupt or defend against will determine what I use here. Rule of Law will slow people down (and usually put a target on you), but it won't disrupt counterspells much whereas Defense Grid can.
I find mana curve to be important because if I'm casting cheap stuff, I can activate Daxos more. Having a lower curve helps ease the pressure on the resources quite a bit as well as the need for ramp. Your higher curve might be hindering things along with individual card impact. In the picture below, I have your curve on the left and mine on the right. While the proportions of the curve are fine, having more cards that cost 5+ mana as you do will displace mana you could spend on Daxos.
Also, stuff like Anointed Procession can get more mileage out of token production with the mana available.
Combat Abilities —
Then there's the problem of making the Spirits effective in combat. True Conviction is a finisher. Once you 5+ experience counters and a handful of spirits, the double strike and lifegain are usually devastating in maintaining an upper hand over your opponents. If you've established a good mana base you won't care if you lose some spirits because you can make more just before your turn.
First strike is okay offensively, but I think it works better defensively for creatures with a decent amount of power. Deathtouch is better than it defensively or for attack triggers if it's on low-power creatures. Just having blockers is a deterrent, though, and I value vigilance more than I value first strike. Reconnaissance is just wicked (especially with attacktriggers), but even Brave the Sands would be good. I do use a bit of deathtouch in my list with Vault of the Archangel, and I also use No Mercy is part of my defenses to encourage opponents to attack elsewhere. Without tutors, getting first strike and deathtouch together isn't going to happen very often. The combination also works better offensively on low-power creatures because larger creatures see a diminishing return without trample.
However, more than these abilities, evasion will help your spirits become more effective attackers. Cover of Darkness, Eldrazi Monument, and Dauthi Embrace (though mana intensive) can help the tokens connect. However, there are other ways, such as Cathars' Crusade + Abzan Falconer. Even the high-cost Akroma's Memorial is an option, if you have one, for its various boons. Without that evasion, I can see why they become primarily defensive.
Some of these could just be replaced by basics. If you have an Urborg it's worth it and the Expedition Map and then you just get as many plains out as you can. Ash Barrens is useful, including with Tainted Field. Isolated Chapel is better than Courtyard, but is slightly pricey. Nykthos can make a lot of mana and pairs well with Sanctum if you have decent devotion to black. Vault of the Archangel and Rogue's Passage can be good surprises. Even Bojuka Bog would be a better tapland.
The cats have the same evasion problem the spirits do without getting bigger, though the possibility of deathtouch would improve them. The Sigil's angels are only on enchantment cast, which wasn't enough for me for the cost of the enchantment. Same thing with the Ancient's +1/+1 counters, where Cathars' Crusade would be way easier to trigger with several things, if +1/+1 counters is something you want to do. With decent combat protection, Luminarch Ascension could be way better as an alternate token source, but tends to put a target on you.
I'm on the fence about Archtype of Finality and Nighthowler. The latter becomes huge if there's a graveyard deck around, but also means letting that player keep their graveyard when you probably want to exile it with Agent of Erebos or something.
As tutors go, I'd rather use stuff like Diabolic Tutor or Increasing Ambition to be able to grab anything. As many 3-drops as there are, even Dimir Machinations can be useful. Three Dreams is awesome in an aura-based voltron deck, but that's not what this is. The Spear can be a bit useful, but I think there are more useful things that slot could be. No Mercy, Crawlspace, Crackdown, Norn's Annex, etc. can do good jobs of discouraging attacks of multiple creatures (on top of the Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety you already run) without having to spend mana.
Wow, what a great reply! Thanks so much for taking all this time to help ! I will review your suggestions over the weekend and will come back with an updated version. I will try to add similar cards but in a more budget oriented perspective. I may however go trade some cards to obtain some of the best cards you suggested. Could you maybe advise the best 10 top cards that should be added to make the most impact (budget-wise / regardless of budget)?
Bad news, man - enchantment wipes hurt just about no matter what when you're playing an enchantment-centric deck. The good news is that Daxos at least allows you to rebuild slightly easier due to all the body barfing.
Looking at your creature base, it becomes quite apparent why the lists that lyonhaert linked (including mine) are quite creature light. There just isn't that much stuff you can realistically run and have do things, and it's not just the ram that's taking up real estate. Is Herald of Torment actually any good? Is Baleful Eidolon actually any good? I know I used to run thearchetypes, and they weren't that super duper. I know you mention not being super keen on relying on Daxos men for the win, but these don't actually seem to offer a viable alternative. On the whole, your list suffers from being a bit scattered, you don't really pick any one direction and commit to it. You have Ajani's Chosen and Sigil of the Empty Throne to go a bit wider, but there's no Dictate of Heliod or True Conviction to make these bodies have more impact. If you want to go in that slightly more Daxos-independent direction, some standalone token generators such as Elspeth, Sun's Champion work well too.
And yeah, the early/mid game is a rough time for Daxos. You need to balance your mana situation, your experience counters, your board presence, and you're likely going to trail behind in at least one of those categories. A thing I've found helpful with that is packing a rather light mana curve with a decent bump at 1cmc. Think about it - you chase Daxos out turn three, you drop a 1cmc thing turn four, you have enough mana to follow up with a 3cmc play (which is, unsurprisingly, the most common type of play in all our lists) or make a 1/1. Alternately, you get a rock going turn two, and turn three has Daxos and the 1cmc play. Having a lot of cheap, utility options is great, as it allows you to mix and match your mana spending allotments in the early turns, using them as efficiently as possible.
Also, since I mentioned 2cmc rocks, having mana acceleration at 3 is quite problematic for sequencing those crucial early plays. You'll probably get better mileage out of something like a Mind Stone or Star Compass instead. Don't go overboard on those though, as if you commit too hard to artifact ramp then a Vandalblast will start hurting more than a Merciless Eviction does now. Balance a few choice, preferably cheap (or Gilded Lotus) rocks with some ways to make land drops or cheat lands into play. Just land-centric, on the whole. Those don't die as easy.
And as a closing thought - yeah, my list is quite Daxos-dependent. But it also runs a ton of ways to mess with people's spell economy - discard, Rule of Law effects, just stuff to subtly throw the game off balance. It actually works quite well - people have fewer plays to make, eventually they may dribble out altogether, and while everybody's stuck making some embrional advances you churn out spirits unhampered. It's quite fun actually
Could you maybe advise the best 10 top cards that should be added to make the most impact (budget-wise / regardless of budget)?
It's rather up to you how you want to prioritize replacements, and that might involve testing the replacements you can make the earliest and cheapest before deciding what pricier pieces you want to trade into. I think the only stuff I hadn't mentioned was Cloudstone Curio (to go with Skybind) and the package of discard enchantments (which is probably more important). Skybind and Cloudstone can turn Daxos's ability into a very interesting and flexible constellation engine, but a lot of the other stuff (that slow down opponents) helps get you there, otherwise you don't live long enough for them to be useful.
.... and the package of discard enchantments (which is probably more important).
I am trying to understand how these enchantments help me? My feeling is that if I have opponents discarding, they will be annoyed and then focus their attention on me. Is that such a great idea? I get the fact that this strategy empties their hand, but I also am affected. I can see that I get to churn out tokens while they may come to the point where they don't have much to do anymore... but just not sure about the whole idea.
.... and the package of discard enchantments (which is probably more important).
I am trying to understand how these enchantments help me? My feeling is that if I have opponents discarding, they will be annoyed and then focus their attention on me. Is that such a great idea? I get the fact that this strategy empties their hand, but I also am affected. I can see that I get to churn out tokens while they may come to the point where they don't have much to do anymore... but just not sure about the whole idea.
You definitely have to be careful when you roll them out so they stick for a while, but they're quite effective. Also, the symmetrical effect on these is part of what makes people underestimate them, thinking it will hurt you just as much, but activated abilities and constellation triggers break that symmetry. There's a lot of discussion in Rumpy's thread answering these same doubts. You could probably search the thread for mentions of "discard" or the card names to find concentrations of that discussion (cards: Bottomless Pit, Necrogen Mists, Oppression, Kaya, Ghost Assassin).
To the best of my knowledge, of the people to actually try the discard route, only one isn't running it now (and that was because he became unhappy with how the deck was playing, not a lack of effectiveness). Daxos abuses all sorts of spell economy bullcrap to great effect as, as you pointed out, he comes with a mana sink, and a pretty good one too. The fact that the overwhelming majority of the discard is symmetrical tends to get you less ire than you expect, and I've tried this in multiple playgroups and on Cockatrice against countless players. People don't start trying to immediately frag you or anything, if they're fussed they may pop some removal from time to time. Perfect, that's one less piece for Skybind (run Skybind, now, this isn't a topic up for debate :P) or something else of that caliber. It's a slow, incremental advantage - people start making less plays than they would, maybe even running out of options, not using their mana bases to the fullest. This can be discard, this can be Rule of Law or whatever. And all this time, you are taxed by the same limitations, but you're also clicking up experience in the background. And then you start crapping 8/8s for three mana and the table has no idea how could it have happened.
However, your build is at a stage where you have a lot of swapping to do before you need to seriously evaluate whether you want to run the discard suite or not. Sort out your mana situation a bit (crap like the cycler lands just isn't that good, and needlessly slows down an already slow deck). Take out the horrible high end sweepers for Toxic Deluge, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Rout. Find room for good removal - you're orzhov, where's your Anguished Unmaking etc? Yes, we may be enchantress, but removal functionality trumps on-theme cuteness. Lose some of those do-nothing creatures, slot in some more cheap utility enchantments like Authority of the Consuls and Phyrexian Reclamation. Just smooth out the core, overall. Plus, possibly pick a bit of a direction and commit to it, as mentioned earlier. Doesn't have to be discard. But actually aim to do something in particular. My build in particular primarily messes with spell economy and controls the board, but you can take yours somewhere else no problem.
You are both right, my build is rather unfocused and I see how I tried to fit too many enchantments to enable experience counters. I am trying to find some time to work on the deck (I left it at my friend's place last week...darn), some changes will reflect some of the great suggestions you made. My local store has a good special for black Friday, so I will take advantage of this to go fetch some of the expensive cards. I will post later this week my updated version.
Once again, thanks for the amazing input and time you guys provided. Much much appreaciated!
I'm just going to add that Nyx-fleece ram is not gaining you as much life as Blind Obedience. I also find that Blind Obedience gives you a lot of time.
You are both right, my build is rather unfocused and I see how I tried to fit too many enchantments to enable experience counters.
You didn't have too many enchantments at all. Daxos and his constellation buddies care about enchantments and it's an important deck-building concept that if there's one thing your deck really cares about, there should probably be 30-40 cards of that thing — and you understood this already putting 34 enchantments in the deck. That count is comparable to the number the rest of us run (count them up in Rumpy's and Tev's threads).
It's what your enchantments did that was unfocused (and also the value-of-effect:cost ratio was hurting).
My local store has a good special for black Friday, so I will take advantage of this to go fetch some of the expensive cards. I will post later this week my updated version.
That's probably a good point at which to start a thread in the multiplayer decklist subforum with the decklist embedded instead of linked.
One more thing, Cloudstone Curio was mentioned, I see it's potential but without Daxos, it is more or less useless. Is it really worth a slot? Wouldn't rings of brighthearth be more effective? Also, Anointed Procession appears to me like a win-more card, and again without Daxos it does nothing.
Anointed Procession is good with Heliod, Kirtar's Wrath, Sigil of the Empty Throne...
I also thought Daxos was your main win condition.
Grim Guardian is another one I am suspicious of... but that being said, Cloudstone Curio is amazing in this deck. Sun Titan, all the constellation cards, Mesa Enchantress, Sigil of the Empty Throne..
All your Oblivion Rings can be re-used, especially when the permanent you exiled belongs to a player no longer in the game. You can use Whip of Erebos twice in the same turn. You can float mana with Serra's Sanctum, crack Burnished Hart or Evolving wilds, return sanctum to your hand, then play Sanctum and double your mana from it.
Just imagine having Legion's landing and Land Tax with Curio... you would get 1 token for each 2 white mana you control, and trigger constellation that many times. You basically turn all your small enchantments into flickering wards.
I need your input for my deck. I believe I had an interesting build based on Daxos The Returned, you can see it in the below link. The deck can function pretty well, but there is a huge weakness that totally decimates it. The problem card is merciless eviction as it exiles my entire board. I have no way to come back from this kind of blow and ask if you know of a way to prevent this?
http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1055422
Thanks for the advise!
Discard effects
things like jester's cap
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Frankly, I would be cutting and replacing a lot of cards, including in the manabase.
For inpsiration, at least, I recommend taking a look at Rumpy5897's Daxos the Returned — Enchantment Speed Bumps Galore and Tev's Daxos, the Derp has Returned threads.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
The decklists you provided seem rather creature light, and perhaps too reliant on Dax's creature churning. I wanted to have a way to win without him, but maybe that is not the way to go... I will think about it.
Land Tax, Black Market, and Serra's Sanctum shouldn't be considered ramp. Sanctum should barely be considered a land, like Cabal Coffers — it's more like a ritual as only produces mana if you have enchantments. Land Tax is a tutor and in some circumstances can improve card advantage, but it doesn't put those lands in play.
Discarding lands (just always get 3 with Land Tax) and getting them to the battlefield with Sun Titan would be ramp (or Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse). Burnished Hart is ramp, although somewhat mana intensive, and can be returned with Sun Titan. Wayfarer's Bauble is ramp. Manarocks help: Star Compass, Orzhov Signet, Sol Ring (be careful with colorless rocks, though), Gilded Lotus, Chromatic Lantern. They can also be reset with Skybind triggers. Sword of the Animist can be pretty amazing as ramp.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is also a good ritual land, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth/Chromatic Lantern are good for some color fixing turning at least every Plains into a dual-color land and allowing ritual lands like Sanctum and Coffers to tap for mana in non-ritual fashion. Holdout Settlement, Meteor Crater, and the three Shimmering Grotto lands aren't very good in a color-hungry deck.
You're thinking of Demonic Tutor, which is pricey. Diabolic Tutor is cheap, though. Academy Rector is pricey, but Lost Auramancers isn't. I go a little more for tutors in my build because I use Spirit of the Labyrinth. Without tutors, you'll want more card draw. You've got Erebos, Mesa Enchantress, Phyrexian Arena, Necropotence, and Underworld Connections (all of which I would be running, too, without tutors). Bloodgift Demon and Graveborn Muse are your second and third Arenas. You could add Greed and Arguel's Blood Fast and then you only need to play out one enchantment that activates to draw and if enchantments get wiped, you can recover a little better if you keep another in hand.
I'm not saying your list should be like those, but I wanted you to see what cards they're using and how they're balanced between different effects. One of the things they do is the engines like Skybind that can be triggered with Daxos's ability at instant speed can also help protect him be moving him out of the way of targeted removal or a wipe. Heliod can trigger them, too.
You do have good cards in your deck. It's just leaning in certain directions too hard, which opened up weaknesses.
As far as the enchantment creatures goes, some are very handy and some definitely don't do enough. So if don't want to be too reliant on Daxos, what other creatures and wincons in WB could be included that work with the enchantments? There are some different things you can do in that space such as demons, angels, more tokens, etc.
old thread
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I'll add to Dunharrow's defensive suggestions with Praetor's Grasp and Sadistic Sacrament.
I don't run those in Daxos, but instead try not to overextend on playing enchantment cards and try to leave mana up for rebuilding spirits. Because sometimes I'm the one casting the board wipe.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Bitter Ordeal is another card that can remove cards.
http://essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1056743
I know other cards could be changed, but I don't want to spend a fortune to fetch the best solutions out there. I would like your advise on this build and maybe have your opinion on which cards that still don't make enough sense to stay. I know for sure that skybind will be added as I see its great potential.
Thanks so much for your time!
Martyr's Cause has been an incredibly useful enchantment in my Daxos deck. It halts voltron decks in their tracks, and cuts the effectiveness of red board wipes in half. Similarly, Attrition is nice repeatable removal.
Nyx-Fleece Ram doesn't do anywhere near enough, cut it.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I have to agree with your above comments, but I have to mention that the Ram does a good job in the early game and acts as a speedbumb later on. It is not amazing but is has saved my ass enough times to warrant a spot.
I'm curious about some statistics and context for your games with this deck, actually. Where in the spectrum of power level in your playgroup(s) does this deck fall? How often is it victorious? What portion of victories are achieved through combat with the spirit tokens? How many experience counters do you have at the end of a game on average, approximately?
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
As for the deck, it has only been played 5-6 times so far, so there is not enough stats to provide a proven track record (I would say 2 wins / 4 loses). I can usually crank up the experience counters to 6-7 on average. The spirit tokens have not been that useful at dealing damage as of yet, more often being used for defense. I haven't played so far the 2 creatures which provide 1st strike / deathtouch (they were added recently), I guess they will help make my tokens more efficient.
My opponents have well tuned decks but nothing truly devastating. We don't play infinite combos. As for the decks they use, 2-3 opponents have better creatures (namely one dragon deck, but that one is slow), while another has mostly control decks (Vathi, Merieke, Phelddagrif). The only card which has truly screwed me over twice so far is merciless eviction as mentioned in my OP, used in a deck with Atraxa and loads of PW. Your reply has exposed other weaknesses and my latest build should help gradually turn things around. I added mana rocks and swaped some lands to improve further. I also included several board wipes. I will test the deck again tonight, but if you have some time, I would greatly appreciate if you could point out which cards are still bad in your opinion, or should be changed. I will switch the Ram for a Eidolon of Rhetoric in the meantime.
Many thanks Lyonhaert!
Early Drops —
The problem I see with the Ram as a blocker is that nobody is scared of it because it has no power and no evasion. As a fragile, cheap permanent that triggers lifegain stuff, it could be useful in a lifegain package (though I'd prefer Ajani's Mantra in said package). There's nothing for your opponent to lose by attacking into it, so it doesn't deter attacks but marginally. In my list I find Academy Rector to be a good creature deterrent from attacks, because nobody wants to help me tutor an enchantment directly to the battlefield. Nobody even wants to block it, so I'll attach Sword of the Animist to it and attack planeswalkers and stuff if I have other blockers. I realize it's 4 mana and outside your budget, but the point is it carries consequences that opponents want to avoid. Vampire Nighthawk could be an excellent early drop that blocks way better than the Ram, plus it carries that Sword well.
Creatures like Eidolon of Rhetoric/Spirit of the Labyrinth, however, can encourage an attack because they cause a problem for your opponents whether they attack you or not. Forcing you to block is one of the cheapest ways to remove them.
Creatures are not the only early drops to consider, though. You can also slow down your opponents with early enchantments like Authority of the Consuls and Blind Obedience. Phyrexian Reclamation reduces the impact of losing nontoken creatures to the graveyard.
Early game is definitely tricky with Daxos. Once in a while it's not ideal to cast him and I have to wait until I can resolve him and immediately follow it up with a low-cost enchantment to get that first experience counter. Sometimes I can't wait and need to lay down a disruption or defense piece before I even cast Daxos. You need time to build up and, aside from ramp, effects fall into the two camps of "slow opponents down" and "keep them away from me". What I have to disrupt or defend against will determine what I use here. Rule of Law will slow people down (and usually put a target on you), but it won't disrupt counterspells much whereas Defense Grid can.
I find mana curve to be important because if I'm casting cheap stuff, I can activate Daxos more. Having a lower curve helps ease the pressure on the resources quite a bit as well as the need for ramp. Your higher curve might be hindering things along with individual card impact. In the picture below, I have your curve on the left and mine on the right. While the proportions of the curve are fine, having more cards that cost 5+ mana as you do will displace mana you could spend on Daxos.
Also, stuff like Anointed Procession can get more mileage out of token production with the mana available.
Combat Abilities —
Then there's the problem of making the Spirits effective in combat. True Conviction is a finisher. Once you 5+ experience counters and a handful of spirits, the double strike and lifegain are usually devastating in maintaining an upper hand over your opponents. If you've established a good mana base you won't care if you lose some spirits because you can make more just before your turn.
First strike is okay offensively, but I think it works better defensively for creatures with a decent amount of power. Deathtouch is better than it defensively or for attack triggers if it's on low-power creatures. Just having blockers is a deterrent, though, and I value vigilance more than I value first strike. Reconnaissance is just wicked (especially with attack triggers), but even Brave the Sands would be good. I do use a bit of deathtouch in my list with Vault of the Archangel, and I also use No Mercy is part of my defenses to encourage opponents to attack elsewhere. Without tutors, getting first strike and deathtouch together isn't going to happen very often. The combination also works better offensively on low-power creatures because larger creatures see a diminishing return without trample.
However, more than these abilities, evasion will help your spirits become more effective attackers. Cover of Darkness, Eldrazi Monument, and Dauthi Embrace (though mana intensive) can help the tokens connect. However, there are other ways, such as Cathars' Crusade + Abzan Falconer. Even the high-cost Akroma's Memorial is an option, if you have one, for its various boons. Without that evasion, I can see why they become primarily defensive.
Lands
Barren Moor, Polluted Mire, Secluded Steppe, Vivid Marsh, Vivid Meadow, Holdout Settlement. The rest are alright, though New Benalia is iffy to me.
Some of these could just be replaced by basics. If you have an Urborg it's worth it and the Expedition Map and then you just get as many plains out as you can. Ash Barrens is useful, including with Tainted Field. Isolated Chapel is better than Courtyard, but is slightly pricey. Nykthos can make a lot of mana and pairs well with Sanctum if you have decent devotion to black. Vault of the Archangel and Rogue's Passage can be good surprises. Even Bojuka Bog would be a better tapland.
Draw
Underworld Connections more-or-less hijacks a land in a mana-hungry deck.
Overall I think you just need more draw. Graveborn Muse, Bloodgift Demon, Arguel's Blood Fast, and Greed are all good to add instead.
Ramp
Orzhov Cluestone and Commander's Sphere could be better rocks. These don't help you cast Daxos + cheap enchantment earlier.
These could easily be Expedition Map and Wayfarer's Bauble, though Fellwar Stone, Star Compass, and Coldsteel Heart are decent. Gilded Lotus is really good if you have it, as Skybind can reset it for 'cheating' extra mana out of it.
Recursion
Monk Idealist, Silent Sentinel, Mine Excavation, Haunted Crossroads.
The Idealist is okay, but if all your enchantments getting destroyed is a common thing, maybe Crystal Chimes is a complement to Open the Vaults and Replenish instead of single-card recursion. Phyrexian Reclamation is a simple upgrade to Haunted Crossroads. Restoration Specialist and Argivian Find are preferable to me over some of these for the instant-speed possibility and, like the Idealist, the Specialist is recurrable with Sun Titan and Reclamation.
Spot Removal
Banishing Light and Oblivion Ring are slow, even if you might get an experience counter.
Others like Grasp of Fate and Aura of Silence are good for politics and disruption, respectively. Instant speed spot removal is better even if it's not in the form of an enchantment: Swords to Plowshares, Anguished Unmaking, Utter End, and Mortify are all good options. Going to echo the suggestion of Attrition here, too.
Wipes
Not bad choices, though six wipes is pretty high for me. An instant-speed possibility is sometimes better for tilting rebuilding in your favor.
Rout and Fated Retribution are options.
Constellation
Underworld Coinsmith and Blightcaster just don't seem to do enough to me.
Celestial Ancient, Grim Guardian, Ajani's Chosen, and Sigil of the Empty Throne weren't useful to me, but if they work for you, great.
The cats have the same evasion problem the spirits do without getting bigger, though the possibility of deathtouch would improve them. The Sigil's angels are only on enchantment cast, which wasn't enough for me for the cost of the enchantment. Same thing with the Ancient's +1/+1 counters, where Cathars' Crusade would be way easier to trigger with several things, if +1/+1 counters is something you want to do. With decent combat protection, Luminarch Ascension could be way better as an alternate token source, but tends to put a target on you.
Other enchantments
Baleful Eidolon, Archetype of Courage, Herald of Torment,
Celestial Archon, Nyx-Fleece Ram, Cho-Manno's Blessing, Gossamer Chains, Story Circle, Daxos's Torment, and Black Market all seem very replaceable to me.
I'm on the fence about Archtype of Finality and Nighthowler. The latter becomes huge if there's a graveyard deck around, but also means letting that player keep their graveyard when you probably want to exile it with Agent of Erebos or something.
As the protection stuff goes, I'll echo the suggestion of Martyr's Cause and also mention Righteous Aura.
Other
Three Dreams, Plea for Guidance, and Spear of Heliod.
As tutors go, I'd rather use stuff like Diabolic Tutor or Increasing Ambition to be able to grab anything. As many 3-drops as there are, even Dimir Machinations can be useful. Three Dreams is awesome in an aura-based voltron deck, but that's not what this is. The Spear can be a bit useful, but I think there are more useful things that slot could be. No Mercy, Crawlspace, Crackdown, Norn's Annex, etc. can do good jobs of discouraging attacks of multiple creatures (on top of the Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety you already run) without having to spend mana.
Easy Replacements
These were sortof the low-hanging fruit that seemed easy choices to me, though without an eye to the mana curve or creature count, however.
Nyx-Fleece Ram -> Vampire Nighthawk (for consistency with discussion)
Celestial Archon -> Bloodgift Demon
Haunted Crossroads -> Phyrexian Reclamation
Orzhov Cluestone -> Wayfarer's Bauble
Commander's Sphere -> Expedition Map
Underworld Connections -> Arguel's Blood Fast
Mine Excavation -> Restoration Specialist
Banishing Light -> Attrition
Oblivion Ring -> Anguished Unmaking
Underworld Coinsmith -> Blind Obedience
Daxos's Torment -> Greed
Three Dreams -> Diabolic Tutor
Blightcaster -> Graveborn Muse
Baleful Eidolon -> Reconnaissance
Story Circle -> Martyr's Cause or Righteous Aura
Black Market -> Skybind
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Looking at your creature base, it becomes quite apparent why the lists that lyonhaert linked (including mine) are quite creature light. There just isn't that much stuff you can realistically run and have do things, and it's not just the ram that's taking up real estate. Is Herald of Torment actually any good? Is Baleful Eidolon actually any good? I know I used to run the archetypes, and they weren't that super duper. I know you mention not being super keen on relying on Daxos men for the win, but these don't actually seem to offer a viable alternative. On the whole, your list suffers from being a bit scattered, you don't really pick any one direction and commit to it. You have Ajani's Chosen and Sigil of the Empty Throne to go a bit wider, but there's no Dictate of Heliod or True Conviction to make these bodies have more impact. If you want to go in that slightly more Daxos-independent direction, some standalone token generators such as Elspeth, Sun's Champion work well too.
And yeah, the early/mid game is a rough time for Daxos. You need to balance your mana situation, your experience counters, your board presence, and you're likely going to trail behind in at least one of those categories. A thing I've found helpful with that is packing a rather light mana curve with a decent bump at 1cmc. Think about it - you chase Daxos out turn three, you drop a 1cmc thing turn four, you have enough mana to follow up with a 3cmc play (which is, unsurprisingly, the most common type of play in all our lists) or make a 1/1. Alternately, you get a rock going turn two, and turn three has Daxos and the 1cmc play. Having a lot of cheap, utility options is great, as it allows you to mix and match your mana spending allotments in the early turns, using them as efficiently as possible.
Also, since I mentioned 2cmc rocks, having mana acceleration at 3 is quite problematic for sequencing those crucial early plays. You'll probably get better mileage out of something like a Mind Stone or Star Compass instead. Don't go overboard on those though, as if you commit too hard to artifact ramp then a Vandalblast will start hurting more than a Merciless Eviction does now. Balance a few choice, preferably cheap (or Gilded Lotus) rocks with some ways to make land drops or cheat lands into play. Just land-centric, on the whole. Those don't die as easy.
And as a closing thought - yeah, my list is quite Daxos-dependent. But it also runs a ton of ways to mess with people's spell economy - discard, Rule of Law effects, just stuff to subtly throw the game off balance. It actually works quite well - people have fewer plays to make, eventually they may dribble out altogether, and while everybody's stuck making some embrional advances you churn out spirits unhampered. It's quite fun actually
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I am trying to understand how these enchantments help me? My feeling is that if I have opponents discarding, they will be annoyed and then focus their attention on me. Is that such a great idea? I get the fact that this strategy empties their hand, but I also am affected. I can see that I get to churn out tokens while they may come to the point where they don't have much to do anymore... but just not sure about the whole idea.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
However, your build is at a stage where you have a lot of swapping to do before you need to seriously evaluate whether you want to run the discard suite or not. Sort out your mana situation a bit (crap like the cycler lands just isn't that good, and needlessly slows down an already slow deck). Take out the horrible high end sweepers for Toxic Deluge, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Rout. Find room for good removal - you're orzhov, where's your Anguished Unmaking etc? Yes, we may be enchantress, but removal functionality trumps on-theme cuteness. Lose some of those do-nothing creatures, slot in some more cheap utility enchantments like Authority of the Consuls and Phyrexian Reclamation. Just smooth out the core, overall. Plus, possibly pick a bit of a direction and commit to it, as mentioned earlier. Doesn't have to be discard. But actually aim to do something in particular. My build in particular primarily messes with spell economy and controls the board, but you can take yours somewhere else no problem.
Once again, thanks for the amazing input and time you guys provided. Much much appreaciated!
Legion's landing might be a decent early drop.
Daxos's Torment seems bad to me. What is your experience with it? Anointed Procession seems too good to ignore.
You should really be adding 3-4 more ramp spells. Mind Stone, Expedition Map to get Serra's Sanctum, maybe Thought Vessel.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
It's what your enchantments did that was unfocused (and also the value-of-effect:cost ratio was hurting).
That's probably a good point at which to start a thread in the multiplayer decklist subforum with the decklist embedded instead of linked.
Our pleasure. We hope you enjoy playing this particular approach, and that your opponents enjoy playing against it.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I also thought Daxos was your main win condition.
Grim Guardian is another one I am suspicious of... but that being said, Cloudstone Curio is amazing in this deck. Sun Titan, all the constellation cards, Mesa Enchantress, Sigil of the Empty Throne..
All your Oblivion Rings can be re-used, especially when the permanent you exiled belongs to a player no longer in the game. You can use Whip of Erebos twice in the same turn. You can float mana with Serra's Sanctum, crack Burnished Hart or Evolving wilds, return sanctum to your hand, then play Sanctum and double your mana from it.
Just imagine having Legion's landing and Land Tax with Curio... you would get 1 token for each 2 white mana you control, and trigger constellation that many times. You basically turn all your small enchantments into flickering wards.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers