While in general, I do agree that it's better to hit the card that is tutored for instead of the tutor, Mental Misstep has something going for it that changes the equation - it doesn't cost mana. Thus it can often counter a tutor in situations where you wouldn't be able to counter the tutored card (i.e. when you've tapped out).
While in general, I do agree that it's better to hit the card that is tutored for instead of the tutor, Mental Misstep has something going for it that changes the equation - it doesn't cost mana. Thus it can often counter a tutor in situations where you wouldn't be able to counter the tutored card (i.e. when you've tapped out).
The main problem is that the incentive to counter the tutor itself isn't very high most of the time, especially when a lot of deckbuilding processes also take into account the multiplayer aspect (which I will take on assumption in general in relation to this thread), so countering the tutor has even less incentive when the possibility someone else will counter the actual threat as well. It's better to wait for the actual threat and see if anyone else has answers and uses them up rather than pre-emptively counter the tutor most of the time at the cost of your own resources and Misstep's narrow target list doesn't allow that luxury of waiting.
Even at a situation with no access to mana, there are cards like Pact of Negation, Force of Will and on situation Commandeer/Mindbreak Trap that can resolve the threat itself with no mana cost. Sure, their alternate costs are way heavier than Misstep, but they permit you to play the "wait and see if anyone else uses their resources instead" game that Misstep doesn't allow, and I believe that is a very big difference when it comes to the "logical logistics" aspect of deckbuilding I mentioned.
The thing about this format, is that there are loads of decks that rely on their commanders, and many of them are cheap and come out early. A good percentage of them also happen to die to Lightning Bolt, and that is awesome. Many times bolt is a one mana Time Stop, if an opponent tapped out to play a creature. Granted, it is still worse than the white and blue options, but it is still a strong card. Also, paying a single mana to kill Arcum Dagsson in response to Lightning Greaves equip feels awesome. It also kills Birds of Paradise, which is correct in some situations.
Honestly, if you can nail a 3+cmc creature with it, or nab a 2-for-1, it is worth using.
Mental Misstep is very much a meta call. But there are a lot of potential targets, depending on your meta. It does lose a lot of its pizzazz because of the color identity rule, however.
Regarding card disadvantage, it's there to stop your opponent from winning or to protect your win condition from a removal spell.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Misstep is a meta consideration. It hits some great stuff, but some of that is only relevant early, so it's value does drop off as the game goes on. Rarely am I going to feel ok spending a card to counter Sol ring or exploration turn 5. I always want to counter top, and a few other one drops.
Other people made similar comments, but I'm wondering why you wouldn't want to counter Time Stretch... Sorry, I mean Sol Ring. It's the most problematic and abusive card in the entire format.
I never said I wouldn't want to counter Sol ring, I said it is far less valuable to counter one turn 5 than turn 1.
Simply put, Sol Ring's value drops significantly the later the game goes on. It's fantastic in the first couple turns, very good turn 3 and maybe 4, but by turn 5 ramping by one colorless becomes less and less important. The difference between 4 mana and 2 on turn 2 is far more important than between 8 and 6 turn 6. It's the early turn Sol Ring's that can let a player snowball ahead of everyone, a late Sol ring is OK, but you'd often rather it be some actual action at that point. Turn 1 countering ring can feel pretty great, but turn five, while certainly harmful to the player getting countered, I'd rather have a card instead in multiplayer, because spending a card to deny a little ramp midgame for one player in a 4 plus game kinda sucks. 1v1 is a different story, but not multiplayer.
In multiplayer, counters are for preventing winning plays or ones that grant such a significant advantage that it's worth going 1 for 1, or protecting yourself. Spending a vindicate on a Kiki jiki because it can win the game, but no smart to spend it on a random 5/5 token, unless it's a point in the game where the token can kill you. Early, Sol ring is impactful enough to justify it, but midgame or later it isn't.
I can think of games where I can say someones early ring gave them enough of an advantage that it was responsible for their win (or at least allowed them to play archenemy), but ive never seen a game where I was like, "wow, drawing that Sol ring on turn 7 was the turning point".
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I can't be the only one amused by the irony of an account named "onering" coming to the defense of the hands down most busted card in the format. Haha.
I can't be the only one amused by the irony of an account named "onering" coming to the defense of the hands down most busted card in the format. Haha.
I can't be the only one amused by the irony of an account named "onering" coming to the defense of the hands down most busted card in the format. Haha.
Sol Ring is more busted. You can't lose to your own Ring like you can your own Crypt. That's.......relevant. You haven't lived until your survival hinges on the flip of a coin.
If you are losing to your mana crypt, you are doing it wrong. The game has gone on too long, and there are so many ways to passively gain life with artifacts like Venser's Journal, Loxodon Warhamer, Wurmcoil and so on, that you had better not be losing the game.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Sol Ring is more busted. You can't lose to your own Ring like you can your own Crypt. That's.......relevant. You haven't lived until your survival hinges on the flip of a coin.
If you're planning to win on turn 4, the damage is not relevant, the mana cost is very relevant. Granted, for low-powered decks like yours and mine, I think it's debatable which is better, but I do frequently find myself using vamp/gamble for mana crypt instead of sol ring because that extra mana can be extremely valuable. Plus it dodges mental misstep
One of the more ridiculous games I remember from ages ago (~2012?) was when I was playing Zirilan and dropped mana crypt, playing for 30 life 1v1. I lost literally every single flip (8 in a row), only taking one 4-damage hit from my opponent, and ended up at 2 life on my last turn, with lethal on board. Then I finally won the damn flip, and won the game
Sol Ring is more busted. You can't lose to your own Ring like you can your own Crypt. That's.......relevant. You haven't lived until your survival hinges on the flip of a coin.
If you're planning to win on turn 4, the damage is not relevant, the mana cost is very relevant. Granted, for low-powered decks like yours and mine, I think it's debatable which is better, but I do frequently find myself using vamp/gamble for mana crypt instead of sol ring because that extra mana can be extremely valuable. Plus it dodges mental misstep
But now my opponent is going to hit my mana rock with Nix! D:
If you are losing to your mana crypt, you are doing it wrong. The game has gone on too long, and there are so many ways to passively gain life with artifacts like Venser's Journal, Loxodon Warhamer, Wurmcoil and so on, that you had better not be losing the game.
And it's 40 life. You have to be very unlucky to lose to our own Crypt.
I tend to see this the way I see Phyrexian Arena or Necropotence: If you lose to the life loss, you probably would've lost anyway.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I know the thread got off track a bit, but what else more needs to be said, other than to echo others?
I use Bolt... well, let's be honest, I use Shock because of the flavor text and the lol factor of winning with shock... in my Mizzix of the Izmagnus deck. Reiterate + a ritual (Seething Song or Desperate Ritual for example) with my commander results in infinite mana, storm, and Reiterate possibilities. Firemind's Foresight will find the combo and it is all over. It is a nice little kill spell that I can get back from the grave yard with Mystic Retrieval effects if I use it or lose it early.
Mental Misstep is another fine card that has a lot of strong legal targets.
I agree with our holistic detective. All things are connected, and playing multiplayer and burning it on a top or Sol Ring on turn really is a waste of time.
It is a meta call for sure. If your play group(s) use powerful 1cc cards, use it. If they don't, then you shouldn't. I wouldn't play it in a deck blindly.
If the whole table is going to lose on turn 4 to a fast combo deck, you are playing a different game than those who go beyond turn 12.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I like playing Mental Misstep in decks that I have graveyard recursion, as it can additionally counter Relic of Progenitus, Scrabbling Claws, Deathrite Shaman, Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb and Phyrexian Furnace. Its surprising how many of the graveyard hate cards are 1 mana.
Mental Misstep has (from my count) 27 relevant 1 mana counterspell targets. Some of those probably aren't really played but the point is if you need to win a counterspell war, this is an excellent choice. These are probably the most relevant besides itself.
Mental Misstep has (from my count) 27 relevant 1 mana counterspell targets. Some of those probably aren't really played but the point is if you need to win a counterspell war, this is an excellent choice. These are probably the most relevant besides itself.
I want my interaction to hit as many things as it can / have a relevant use against as many decks as possible. If a card is only good at sniping certain singles out of opposing decks, I'm just not going to play it.
If it's a priority to kill a mana dork on turn 1, that's not a meta I'm going to be a part of for very long.
I just don't see myself having to play in a metagame where Bolt's cost outweighs its lack of flexibility long enough for it to change the contents of my decks. The chances for me playing Mental Misstep are even slimmer because it interacts with fewer things.
Just as a point of reference, I saw Mental Misstep used today against a token heavy deck that cast Skullclamp. I may have to re-evaluate my original thoughts on it...
If it's a priority to kill a mana dork on turn 1, that's not a meta I'm going to be a part of for very long.
What is a priority to kill is totally dependent on the deck, if I drop a turn 1 Birds of Paradise in my Scion of the Ur Dragon deck, killing it could ruin my entire plan.
Misstep is definitely meta dependent. The more competitive the higher chances it can have plenty of targets and the higher value those targets become. Countering a turn round 1 end of turn Vampiric Tutor may have just saved you the game. Or...in new player big stompy fun land it may not have more than a turn 4 Llanowar Elves to target.
I think the answer here is take note of what 1 drops people commonly play in your meta and see how impactful they are to your games and go from there. I would guess many people are somewhere in the middle of the road and will just have to decide for themselves.
I can see lightning bolt being played much more frequently. So versatile and can hit so many commanders and combo/support creatures.
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The main problem is that the incentive to counter the tutor itself isn't very high most of the time, especially when a lot of deckbuilding processes also take into account the multiplayer aspect (which I will take on assumption in general in relation to this thread), so countering the tutor has even less incentive when the possibility someone else will counter the actual threat as well. It's better to wait for the actual threat and see if anyone else has answers and uses them up rather than pre-emptively counter the tutor most of the time at the cost of your own resources and Misstep's narrow target list doesn't allow that luxury of waiting.
Even at a situation with no access to mana, there are cards like Pact of Negation, Force of Will and on situation Commandeer/Mindbreak Trap that can resolve the threat itself with no mana cost. Sure, their alternate costs are way heavier than Misstep, but they permit you to play the "wait and see if anyone else uses their resources instead" game that Misstep doesn't allow, and I believe that is a very big difference when it comes to the "logical logistics" aspect of deckbuilding I mentioned.
Honestly, if you can nail a 3+cmc creature with it, or nab a 2-for-1, it is worth using.
Regarding card disadvantage, it's there to stop your opponent from winning or to protect your win condition from a removal spell.
Lightning Bolt, however, is almost universally useful.
On phasing:
I never said I wouldn't want to counter Sol ring, I said it is far less valuable to counter one turn 5 than turn 1.
Simply put, Sol Ring's value drops significantly the later the game goes on. It's fantastic in the first couple turns, very good turn 3 and maybe 4, but by turn 5 ramping by one colorless becomes less and less important. The difference between 4 mana and 2 on turn 2 is far more important than between 8 and 6 turn 6. It's the early turn Sol Ring's that can let a player snowball ahead of everyone, a late Sol ring is OK, but you'd often rather it be some actual action at that point. Turn 1 countering ring can feel pretty great, but turn five, while certainly harmful to the player getting countered, I'd rather have a card instead in multiplayer, because spending a card to deny a little ramp midgame for one player in a 4 plus game kinda sucks. 1v1 is a different story, but not multiplayer.
In multiplayer, counters are for preventing winning plays or ones that grant such a significant advantage that it's worth going 1 for 1, or protecting yourself. Spending a vindicate on a Kiki jiki because it can win the game, but no smart to spend it on a random 5/5 token, unless it's a point in the game where the token can kill you. Early, Sol ring is impactful enough to justify it, but midgame or later it isn't.
I can think of games where I can say someones early ring gave them enough of an advantage that it was responsible for their win (or at least allowed them to play archenemy), but ive never seen a game where I was like, "wow, drawing that Sol ring on turn 7 was the turning point".
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Sol Ring is more busted. You can't lose to your own Ring like you can your own Crypt. That's.......relevant. You haven't lived until your survival hinges on the flip of a coin.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
One of the more ridiculous games I remember from ages ago (~2012?) was when I was playing Zirilan and dropped mana crypt, playing for 30 life 1v1. I lost literally every single flip (8 in a row), only taking one 4-damage hit from my opponent, and ended up at 2 life on my last turn, with lethal on board. Then I finally won the damn flip, and won the game
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
And it's 40 life. You have to be very unlucky to lose to our own Crypt.
I tend to see this the way I see Phyrexian Arena or Necropotence: If you lose to the life loss, you probably would've lost anyway.
On phasing:
The player before him dropped Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I use Bolt... well, let's be honest, I use Shock because of the flavor text and the lol factor of winning with shock... in my Mizzix of the Izmagnus deck. Reiterate + a ritual (Seething Song or Desperate Ritual for example) with my commander results in infinite mana, storm, and Reiterate possibilities. Firemind's Foresight will find the combo and it is all over. It is a nice little kill spell that I can get back from the grave yard with Mystic Retrieval effects if I use it or lose it early.
Mental Misstep is another fine card that has a lot of strong legal targets.
I agree with our holistic detective. All things are connected, and playing multiplayer and burning it on a top or Sol Ring on turn really is a waste of time.
It is a meta call for sure. If your play group(s) use powerful 1cc cards, use it. If they don't, then you shouldn't. I wouldn't play it in a deck blindly.
If the whole table is going to lose on turn 4 to a fast combo deck, you are playing a different game than those who go beyond turn 12.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I can think of Cyclonic Rift, Demonic Tutor, Counterspell, Mana Drain
edit - it's almost better to run Muddle the Mixture instead?
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
- Containment Priest
- Grand Abolisher
- Knight of the White Orchid
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Baral, Chief of Compliance
- Gilded Drake
- Phantasmal Image
- Snapcaster Mage
- Blood Artist
- Dark Confidant
- Withered Wretch
- Zulaport Cutthroat
- Goblin Recruiter
- Bloom Tender
- Fauna Shaman
- Lotus Cobra
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
- Scavenging Ooze
- Baleful Strix
- Coiling Oracle
- Gaddock Teeg
- Qasali Pridemage
- Saffi Eriksdotter
- Hangarback Walker (for X=1)
- Myr Retriever
- Phyrexian Revoker
- Rest in Peace
- Counterspell
- Cyclonic Rift
- Mana Drain
- Animate Dead
- Bitterblossom
- Demonic Tutor
- Night's Whisper
- Fork
- Goblin Bombardment
- Reverberate
- Earthcraft
- Green Sun's Zenith (for X=1)
- Life from the Loam
- Nature's Lore
- Regrowth
- Survival of the Fittest
- Sylvan Library
- Three Visits
- Boros Charm
- Eladamri's Call
- Hull Breach
- Lim-Dul's Vault
- Rakdos Charm
- Sterling Grove
- Wear // Tear (if only casting Wear)
- Grim Monolith
- Lightning Greaves
- Scroll Rack
- Torpor Orb
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Winter Orb
Muddle the Mixture serves a very different purpose from Spell Snare.Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
If it's a priority to kill a mana dork on turn 1, that's not a meta I'm going to be a part of for very long.
I just don't see myself having to play in a metagame where Bolt's cost outweighs its lack of flexibility long enough for it to change the contents of my decks. The chances for me playing Mental Misstep are even slimmer because it interacts with fewer things.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
aka #Worth
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
What is a priority to kill is totally dependent on the deck, if I drop a turn 1 Birds of Paradise in my Scion of the Ur Dragon deck, killing it could ruin my entire plan.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
I think the answer here is take note of what 1 drops people commonly play in your meta and see how impactful they are to your games and go from there. I would guess many people are somewhere in the middle of the road and will just have to decide for themselves.
I can see lightning bolt being played much more frequently. So versatile and can hit so many commanders and combo/support creatures.