I have been playing Magic for about 10 years (on and off). I started playing during Planar Chaos (I played 60 cards singleton format). Then I started play competitively (type 2 format) during Alara and Zendikar blocks. Following that I took a long break and started to play again end of last year (2016). I gravitated towards Commander format because it similar to the singleton format that I played when i first started. Moreover, I can still use my old cards and don't have to worry about drop of value of the cards when it rotates out.
I was very surprised at the power level of the 'new' commander cards. The likes of Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Animar, Soul of Elements, Meren of Clan Nel Toth and many more. This cards borderline breaking the format because of the advantage of their give and also the very 'easy' nature for the player to build around them (they basically half the engine). I feel this hinder the ability of the players for deck-building given the nature of the commander. Commander likes Sen Triplets, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Thraximundar, Captain Sisay and many more that weren't built solely for commander purpose I consider to be "Blue sky" commander can be played in numerous way that it doesn’t have to depends on the commander itself. In that sense it makes the deck more resilient since it doesn’t have a single way to win the game.
Truly, there is one player in my current play group that only play with this so called “New Age Commander”. He plays Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Kess, Dissident Mage and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. And every time I play with him, I always ended up wondering, “Man..that is so easy to pull off” or “Wow…he can do that over and over”. That actually lead me to write this thread. Moreover, looking at the tier list in Tappedout, all the top tier list is plagued with this “New Age Commander” that have no other purpose to be created than just for commander player.
Anyway, what do you guys think? Please don’t take it personally if you play commanders that I mentioned, I just want to have a good discussion
I feel much the same in that new commanders are 'easy mode' and old commanders, especially the very very old legendaries, have more style points.
That said I still run them, and I'm a particular sucker for the partners
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Moreover, looking at the tier list in Tappedout, all the top tier list is plagued with this “New Age Commander”
Literally never looked at it that way.
Of the 9 Commanders considered T1 only Zur and Tazri weren't printed in any Commander product. Tier 1.5 though has 12/16 being non-product Legends.
I gotta say i'm undecided about a few of your arguments. For one i don't really like "Blue Sky" Commanders, because i enjoy synergetic plays with the commander - on both sides of the table - and unless you're basically netdecking, because your commander has such a tight theme, that all decks look the same, i really enjoy checking out brews.
That being said Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Azorius Goodstuff or else is as boring as it gets for my taste.
But, i have to admit, i'm not too fond of the power level of some of the more recent commanders. While i enjoy powerful decks and commanders, Ydris, Maelstrom Wielder, Breya, Etherium Shaper, Kess, Dissident Mage and others are just borderline dull for their ridiculous potential.
If i were to decide i'd design Commanders less powerful than those, just to avoid power creep with each new Commander Set. It's great to support the format, especially with fresh Faces for our Brews, but it has come at a balanced level, not to push the limitations of the game each year.
I feel much the same in that new commanders are 'easy mode' and old commanders, especially the very very old legendaries, have more style points.
That said I still run them, and I'm a particular sucker for the partners
This is kind of how I feel, I run a mix of Commander set commanders, commanders made before WotC officially recognized Commander, and commanders made after the advent of Commander sets.
Arguably, the Commander set Commanders are "easy mode" being specifically designed to be in the Command Zone, while Legendary creatures printed after 2012 sort of have this weird non-verbal agreement to be somewhat commander oriented (explaining why there's outcry over cards like Dragonlord Kolaghan), and Legendary creatures printed before 2012 are usually the most difficult to break, aside from a few exceptions.
But these kinds of Commanders all exist to satisfy everyone's desires, some players just want to win regardless of the expansion symbol, some players like the challenge of making a deck using Legends Legendaries, in the end I guess it's up to the player what kind of deckbuilding experience and gameplay they want.
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EDH Pantheon UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare WBG Karador, the Bridge Between WU Grand Warden Augustin IV RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening BG Nath Addict UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame B Kokusho, the Mourning Star U Memnarch is All
I am a big fan of the partners as well, I was bummed when they didn't print new one in the recent set. The partners feel like closer to the old school commanders in term of power level. I like to run them as a single commander sometimes as opposed to partnering them up.
I gotta say i'm undecided about a few of your arguments. For one i don't really like "Blue Sky" Commanders, because i enjoy synergetic plays with the commander - on both sides of the table - and unless you're basically netdecking, because your commander has such a tight theme, that all decks look the same, i really enjoy checking out brews.
That being said Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Azorius Goodstuff or else is as boring as it gets for my taste.
Blue Sky Commander in my opinion just allow me to play the best card from the colors. Within that I can find synergies from the cards without depending so much on the commander. I guess I like my game plans are not influenced by the identity of the commander.
Well, about netdecking, how many times you saw the Meren guy gonna play what Meren do 90% of the time? some goes with other New Age Commanders. This commander has a built in strategy that so dominant that every players gonna gravitates toward that way. I am not hating them for that, but once in a while why don't you bring your own deck that has a different game plan than what people used to see. I feel they are missing the fun of deck building, the design within limits aspect of Magic.
If i were to decide i'd design Commanders less powerful than those, just to avoid power creep with each new Commander Set. It's great to support the format, especially with fresh Faces for our Brews, but it has come at a balanced level, not to push the limitations of the game each year.
But these kinds of Commanders all exist to satisfy everyone's desires, some players just want to win regardless of the expansion symbol, some players like the challenge of making a deck using Legends Legendaries, in the end I guess it's up to the player what kind of deckbuilding experience and gameplay they want.
Wizards have to be smarter on designing the next commander set. Most of this commanders product are only good for commander format. Why this has to be this way? This is a lazy design in my opinion. I am not saying make a commander card that good in modern, standard, vintage and commander format altogether, but by introducing Eminence and Experience counter that just make the card absolute in other formats. Not to mention how to stop Eminence or Experience counter? This way Wizards just make an unnecessary "thinking outside the box" decision that looks amateur in my opinion. There are so many untapped potential within the box, why don't they exert all the potential before branching to this "cheaply made" decision?
Note: I know Solemnity stop experience counter, but you got my point. Making a new card that stop a newly created, unnecessary problem.
I would never play a 'blue sky commander'. I am only interested in Commanders that I can build my deck around. I would rather take a card like Kefnet the Mindful and try to make a mono-blue deck that synergizes with it and maximizes its potential.. rather than just play a generic blue good stuff deck.
Also, I don't understand how you can call Captain Sisay blue sky. Maybe it was not designed for edh, but it certainly is a build-around card that is played with a bunch of legendary creatures.
In any case, there are legendary creatures that are made today that aren't made for commander. The commander products are skewed towards being build-around me cards exploring new space, and I like what they have done. I understand your dislike for Meren.. you are right, there is basically one way to build her. But a lot of people really love that style of play and really like the way Meren enables that deck.
I would also argue that the more a card lends itself to a certain archetype (reanimator, for example), the easier it is to lock out of the game with hate pieces.
I like legends with challenge when building a EDH deck, which is why older legends were preferred due to their flavor > mechanic aspects. Wizards forgot that sometimes flavor is what entice people to make and play certain decks, they shouldn't always aim to make them too powerful (or cliche) simply because it's EDH and not 60 cards.
I think you mean linear versus modular design. (That article was written around Mirrodin. Onslaught was very linear, and Mirrodin was very modular. But you can see the pendulum swing: The next time we went to Mirrodin, infect was even more linear than tribal, but everything else in the Scars block tended to be modular.)
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think there's a bit of bleed over here; Meren of Clan Nel Toth is not the strongest reanimator commander about. I see Chainer, Dementia Master as much, much stronger. Likewise with Kess, Dissident Mage, there are better spell slingers about - my favourite is Dralnu, Lich Lord. Granted, he has a downside, but it turns out to be pretty minimal in most cases, and he is otherwise very strong, and sees a lot of use as a combo general.
I get what you mean by 'bluesky generals' I think. Generals with a few different ways to go, whether it be goodstuff or something more directed. I don't necessarily think Wizards are printing anything these days thats more broken than what's been printed in the last 10-15 years though.
It does seem there are more players around more interested in very competitive decks, and there's no dearth of choices there; but the same people didn't have NO choices a decade ago either, you just would've seen less variation in Commanders.
I DO prefer a more casual, less cutthroat commander personally, as I prefer arm wrestle games. Not exclusively, I do run a Ghave, Guru of Spores deck, and a Sydri, Galvanic Genius deck, both known for combo, but I do still try to steer clear of combo where possible.
I feel like my lists have been completely avoiding the Commander product commander options for the most part.
I guess the fact that they are easy to build around is... a bit of a turn-off? However, someone without my level of knowledge on cards may find it to their advantage to build around them.
I would never play a 'blue sky commander'. I am only interested in Commanders that I can build my deck around. I would rather take a card like Kefnet the Mindful and try to make a mono-blue deck that synergizes with it and maximizes its potential.. rather than just play a generic blue good stuff deck.
Also, I don't understand how you can call Captain Sisay blue sky. Maybe it was not designed for edh, but it certainly is a build-around card that is played with a bunch of legendary creatures.
I would also argue that the more a card lends itself to a certain archetype (reanimator, for example), the easier it is to lock out of the game with hate pieces.
Regarding Captain Sisay, you’re right that she has a build around strategy. But I still count her as a blue sky because she doesn’t ‘force’ player to play certain strategy. She is a legendary tutor at best. The legendary cards that you put into your Sisay’s deck are the one that are going to dictate your play style.
Yes, the more narrow the game plan (reanimation or graveyard shenanigans) the easier to get lock out of the game. Hence in my opinion leads to bad deck-building. This narrow-oriented deck only good against players that are usually just started playing. Against more experienced player, that deck would be dealt easily.
But both GAAIV and Sisay are arguably stronger and way more opressive than any experiece commander so far?
And many of their decklists just mash the same cards together over and over, too.
Not a very good example imo.
Any commander can be built near their top potential. Maybe GAAIV or Sisay weren’t a good example but they don’t direct you to play in a certain way. GAAIV can be play as stax or blue-white draw go control, while Sisay can also be played as stax or tool box. On the other hand, please tell me otherwise when you see Meren, you don’t see a strong reanimator theme there? Or Mizzix with his spell-slinging theme? The Fact that the commanders make it so easy to abuse certain thing, it drains me.
I like legends with challenge when building a EDH deck, which is why older legends were preferred due to their flavor > mechanic aspects.
I agree, I love the flavor so much. Sometimes I wonder, why Wizards don’t save the powerful mechanics for the characters that more deserving (flavor-wise) :P. The likes of Teysa, Agrus-Kos, or Feather.
I think you mean linear versus modular design. (That article was written around Mirrodin. Onslaught was very linear, and Mirrodin was very modular. But you can see the pendulum swing: The next time we went to Mirrodin, infect was even more linear than tribal, but everything else in the Scars block tended to be modular.)
Interesting read, thanks for the article :D. Yes, linear and modular are a better terms for this case. I wonder if Maro was the head of design of Commander products, would he green-lights these ‘Eminence’, ‘Experience Counter’ or other narrow-design commander that push way out of the box? hmm…
I think there's a bit of bleed over here; Meren of Clan Nel Toth is not the strongest reanimator commander about. I see Chainer, Dementia Master as much, much stronger. Likewise with Kess, Dissident Mage, there are better spell slingers about - my favourite is Dralnu, Lich Lord. Granted, he has a downside, but it turns out to be pretty minimal in most cases, and he is otherwise very strong, and sees a lot of use as a combo general.
I beg to differ on Kess, Dissident Mage and Dralnu, Lich Lord. I think Kess is an upgrade version of Dralnu, but I can agree to disagree on that one.
Yes, I like your comparison on these general, the old commanders can be fine tune to do what these new commanders can do, but the new commanders are already half the engine of what you are trying to pull off in those old commander. That justify my point how ridiculous over-powered these commanders are.
I guess the fact that they are easy to build around is... a bit of a turn-off?
It is a turn-off. I just want people to not just playing the commanders that are easy to build around. At some point you have to try to build an old school commander whether it is linear or modular. You will appreciate more when you build your engine from scratch, and losing or winning in a game would mean less to you because of your appreciation to your work.
I understand what you mean. It seems that in the pre-commander releases era, if you wanted to build a good deck you'd have to include cards that added together, were more than the sum their parts. The key to making a good deck is getting these little synergies working together.
Today there are a lot more cards that are "one-card combo's" so to speak, just add mana. I don't neccesarily feel that's for better or worse, but it is different.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
there really isn't much difference between something like captain sisay and meren, or mizzix and azami. old commanders could be just as buildaroundme as new ones. there are less ragnar's now, but there were still a lot of old commanders that said here's what i do, build a deck around it for success. i think the real factor here is exposure and volume. there are more people playing commander now so you generally run into a greater diversity of decks, with more legends to choose from in the past 6 years that orient around a certain theme or archetype.
have you ever seen a sisay deck that isn't legend vomit?
grand arbiter that doesn't make it increasingly more taxing to play your spells?
a savra deck that doesn't sacrifice things?
i'm just not understanding where you're coming from honestly.
sure a lot of older legends feel out classed,but anything can be built to be competitive. i don't know, it seems more like you're issue is that commanders are built around rather than being a 99 card pile of good stuff? i'm not quite grasping this one.
I have been playing Magic for about 10 years (on and off). I started playing during Planar Chaos (I played 60 cards singleton format). Then I started play competitively (type 2 format) during Alara and Zendikar blocks. Following that I took a long break and started to play again end of last year (2016). I gravitated towards Commander format because it similar to the singleton format that I played when i first started. Moreover, I can still use my old cards and don't have to worry about drop of value of the cards when it rotates out.
I was very surprised at the power level of the 'new' commander cards. The likes of Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Animar, Soul of Elements, Meren of Clan Nel Toth and many more. This cards borderline breaking the format because of the advantage of their give and also the very 'easy' nature for the player to build around them (they basically half the engine). I feel this hinder the ability of the players for deck-building given the nature of the commander. Commander likes Sen Triplets, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Thraximundar, Captain Sisay and many more that weren't built solely for commander purpose I consider to be "Blue sky" commander can be played in numerous way that it doesn’t have to depends on the commander itself. In that sense it makes the deck more resilient since it doesn’t have a single way to win the game.
Truly, there is one player in my current play group that only play with this so called “New Age Commander”. He plays Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Kess, Dissident Mage and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. And every time I play with him, I always ended up wondering, “Man..that is so easy to pull off” or “Wow…he can do that over and over”. That actually lead me to write this thread. Moreover, looking at the tier list in Tappedout, all the top tier list is plagued with this “New Age Commander” that have no other purpose to be created than just for commander player.
Anyway, what do you guys think? Please don’t take it personally if you play commanders that I mentioned, I just want to have a good discussion
You officially lost me at saying Captain Sisay doesn't have to be played one way. Every Sisay deck is virtually identical by virtue of Sisay's ability just screaming to make you play Legendary cards.
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I don't find any new commanders any more oppressive than anything that came before then. Ultimately the 99 cards surrounding any commander will be what makes or breaks it. You can play a Haakon, Stromgald Scourge that just wrecks people in spite of having a fairly useless commander(Some people never cast their commanders and just pick them for the colors like this one guy who runs a Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge at my shop and just combos/storms out.) or make a deck so soft even having Griselbrand at the helm of it wouldn't save it. It's all what you want to make of it. I personally walk the line of being competitive enough but still have some flavor and sense of fun.
Sure the last couple commander sets have been creatures usually about something, so the decks come naturally geared to aid that synergy which makes them better out of the box making the foremat more accessible to new players. Would you really want to buy or play an Arahbo, Roar of the World deck if it wasn't filled with various cats? This year was all about tribal so yes they're going be a build around for the tribe centric general with the big card. However they do include back up choices so you can go a different direction. If you want to focus on equipment then Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith might be more your deal and less on cats. He could be at the helm of a deck with no other cats and still be very effective. Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist on the other hand is pretty open ended, and can do a mixture of either theme, or something different all together.
The four color generals of last year were generally about a concept, but even they have some room to make a deck about other things. Atraxa, Praetors' Voice could be put at the helm of tons of different decks since her ability helps many things. You can make a deck with energy, +1/+1 counters, experience generals, poison/infect ,planswalkers or any combo of them. She's super versatile on top of just being a really good beat stick. The partners allow you play different colors and styles together. These are the most open ended thing made in the commander sets, hopefully they get more in future sets. (I'd prefer they make 10 tri-color partners and 10 mono-colored ones if they did a new batch.)
Ultimately in magic, You have too little focus your deck has an identity crisis as does nothing particularly well but the greater the focus the easier it is to hate it out as it's hyper specialized. If someone deck got tons of enchantments or artifacts in it...guess what? play stuff that wrecks those or neutralizes them like Stony Silence and VandalBlast. If they're playing storm or some sort of combo deck, play a Curse of Exhaustion or Arcane Laboratory. They play a mono white, hit em with Flashfires or Anarchy. They play a certain tribe...then play cards that murder targeted creature types such as Tsabo's Decree, Extinction or lock em down with An-Zerrin Ruins. Whatever it is you're struggling against you probably aren't packing the proper tools to counter them then. Always adapt to your meta and bringing out the kryptonite that suits your targets accordingly. Anything can be broken, just got hit it hard enough or in the right spot.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I was very surprised at the power level of the 'new' commander cards. ... This cards borderline breaking the format because of the advantage of their give and also the very 'easy' nature for the player to build around them (they basically half the engine)...that weren't built solely for commander purpose I consider to be "Blue sky" commander can be played in numerous way that it doesn’t have to depends on the commander itself ...Moreover, looking at the tier list in Tappedout, all the top tier list is plagued with this “New Age Commander” that have no other purpose to be created than just for commander player.
See how cherry picking examples throws bias into the argument and can misrepresent reality? I don't fully disagree, but I do take issue with some of your statements. True, there have been a lot of powerful legends created due to the format's popularity. True, the precons are popular and a lot of players either start Commander with them or get them for new cards. But that doesn't mean "new cards bad, old cards good."
Personally, I'm glad they keep printing new and exciting things. I like building new decks and trying new strategies. I like that the precons build excitement and interest in the format. And I like that they can explore design space and experiment with abilities and mechanics that wouldn't fit in a normal set.
In some ways this is a major weakness of the experience commanders. If you can answer the commander just a few times, their entire deck falls apart without their engine. Unless they've built in redundancy, sure, but if the deck can beat you without the commander its not the commander's fault, is it? Meren is probably the most difficult to stop if its well built, but graveyard hate still just wrecks them.
have you ever seen a sisay deck that isn't legend vomit?
grand arbiter that doesn't make it increasingly more taxing to play your spells?
a savra deck that doesn't sacrifice things?
You officially lost me at saying Captain Sisay doesn't have to be played one way. Every Sisay deck is virtually identical by virtue of Sisay's ability just screaming to make you play Legendary cards.
I feel that we get sidetracked a bit from the main discussion because the example that I present. I have seen a bunch of different Sisay deck. Stax build and Token are two of them. Granted they are might not be as competitive as the top build Sisay, but they can held their ground. I just like the fact that you can use her as an utility piece rather than solely depends on her. You are right Sisay screams for Legendary, but there are so many legendary cards out there. To generalize ‘playing legendary’ as one dominant strategy is just a stretch tbh.
Yes, Savra fall into this ‘linear’ strategy. But you need a lot of pieces to set your engine. You need a sac outlet, you need a token maker or any spell that can recur your creature. Now look at Meren, Meren might need a grave pact, but does she need a sac outlet? no. ‘The whenever creature you control dies (not only sac) clause on Meren’ is just way too powerful and abbuse-able. Do you need a token maker for Meren? No. Do you need a recursion engine? Lol..Absolutely not, lastly is she harder to cast than Savra? Back to my point, she is half or most of the part of the engine what the ‘old style’ commander trying to do.
Ok, GAAIV. He himself make your opponents pay one mana more to cast a spell and make you spell cost 2 less at best. From this point of view this card already oppressive. What about Mizzix? Have you ever seen a Mizzix player cast a Stroke of Genius, drawing 5 cards by paying 1 blue? What about Cyclonic Rift Overload for 1 blue? Or Capsize lock you with 2 blue? Ok, let’s kill him, do his 6+ experience counters gone? lol.
Sure the last couple commander sets have been creatures usually about something, so the decks come naturally geared to aid that synergy which makes them better out of the box making the foremat more accessible to new players. Would you really want to buy or play an Arahbo, Roar of the World deck if it wasn't filled with various cats? This year was all about tribal so yes they're going be a build around for the tribe centric general with the big card. However they do include back up choices so you can go a different direction. If you want to focus on equipment then Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith might be more your deal and less on cats. He could be at the helm of a deck with no other cats and still be very effective. Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist on the other hand is pretty open ended, and can do a mixture of either theme, or something different all together.
The four color generals of last year were generally about a concept, but even they have some room to make a deck about other things. Atraxa, Praetors' Voice could be put at the helm of tons of different decks since her ability helps many things. You can make a deck with energy, +1/+1 counters, experience generals, poison/infect ,planswalkers or any combo of them. She's super versatile on top of just being a really good beat stick. The partners allow you play different colors and styles together. These are the most open ended thing made in the commander sets, hopefully they get more in future sets. (I'd prefer they make 10 tri-color partners and 10 mono-colored ones if they did a new batch.)
True. But do they have to stretch out and make a mechanic called “Eminence” to make it appealing to play cat, vampire or dragon deck? This is breaking the format, you don’t have to cast your commander to reap the benefit. Oh one more thing, some as experience counter, they are not “removable” in current meta (God forbid they print something like Solemnity to deal with eminence).
Yes, I like the 4 colors commanders cycle, they are not narrow-minded as some of the new commander. Preach on the partner commander . Most of them in the right power level, the new non-partner commander should just be slightly overpower than them but not broken Imo.
Keep in mind, a modular card doesn't mean it isn't a combo machine. Ghave, Guru of Spores takes advantage of every Abzan card
Hmm..not sure Ghave can be consider modular (discussion for different day) Imo, but again, he is broken in a way that he is half of the engine of what you plan to do.
See how cherry picking examples throws bias into the argument and can misrepresent reality? I don't fully disagree, but I do take issue with some of your statements. True, there have been a lot of powerful legends created due to the format's popularity. True, the precons are popular and a lot of players either start Commander with them or get them for new cards. But that doesn't mean "new cards bad, old cards good."
They are bad in term of general design of the game. Can you use Mizzix or Meren in other format not Commander? Of course not. This card is so one dimensional in term of the general function of the game, and also very narrow in the format (commander) itself. However they are very easy to use and abuse, that’s why they become popular. Imo this will lead to poor deck building skill because the ‘easy’ nature of the commander. I think this is the nature of the beast from now on. You can do broken things easily and make it more accessible so you can get ‘excitement’ and more players (money).
In some ways this is a major weakness of the experience commanders. If you can answer the commander just a few times, their entire deck falls apart without their engine. Unless they've built in redundancy, sure, but if the deck can beat you without the commander its not the commander's fault, is it? Meren is probably the most difficult to stop if its well built, but graveyard hate still just wrecks them.
True, but the Experience Counter doesn’t go right? Can I build a deck that death-locks a Meren or Mizzix player? Yes, but I wouldn’t do it because it won’t be fun for me and it’s not the point of playing Magic.
Wizards found out that EDH was becoming more popular than standard at the casual kitchen table. Then wizards found out how to power creep EDH separate from the standard format. They introduced Commander and everyone bought into it. Now, Commander power creep will continue to drive a separate market. Old 'blue-sky' generals are quickly becoming a thing of the past unless house rules will ban Commander cards from the table...
Personally, I don't mind most of the Commander decks, though I do wish the EDH committee would take a bit of a harder line against cards that power creep too fast.
A friend of mine plays a Lord of Tresserhorn deck. Very cool style points. My group likes things like Zurgo Helmsmasher and such but we always like to see old commanders, too. Come to think of it, I sprung for Hazezon Tamar for a failed deck, I should put him in my token deck.
Commanders in commander products were designed with multiplayer play in mind with singleton decks and 40 starting life. If nothing else, one would expect them to be better designed for the needs of those decks: being able to help end games when players start at high life totals, making sure players don't run out of gas, helping players build large singleton by pointing them in a particular direction. On top of that, they want the products they're produced in to be attractive. One could argue that there's legendary creature power creep since they started making commander products, but I can't say I'd expect the quantity of appealing options to build a deck around from standard-legal or reprint products.
Zur is incredibly powerful and wasn't even designed for commander. Elamadri is banned. If they didn't have a product for multi player creatures, maybe the standard-legal products would have more out-there creatures but we wouldn't get anything designed for commander specifically.
Additionally, one could argue it's better to put a little bit of extra power into the commander rather than the deck as it allows players with limited collections to still have powerful things to do every game.
I was very surprised at the power level of the 'new' commander cards. The likes of Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Animar, Soul of Elements, Meren of Clan Nel Toth and many more. This cards borderline breaking the format because of the advantage of their give and also the very 'easy' nature for the player to build around them (they basically half the engine). I feel this hinder the ability of the players for deck-building given the nature of the commander. Commander likes Sen Triplets, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Thraximundar, Captain Sisay and many more that weren't built solely for commander purpose I consider to be "Blue sky" commander can be played in numerous way that it doesn’t have to depends on the commander itself. In that sense it makes the deck more resilient since it doesn’t have a single way to win the game.
Truly, there is one player in my current play group that only play with this so called “New Age Commander”. He plays Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Kess, Dissident Mage and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. And every time I play with him, I always ended up wondering, “Man..that is so easy to pull off” or “Wow…he can do that over and over”. That actually lead me to write this thread. Moreover, looking at the tier list in Tappedout, all the top tier list is plagued with this “New Age Commander” that have no other purpose to be created than just for commander player.
Anyway, what do you guys think? Please don’t take it personally if you play commanders that I mentioned, I just want to have a good discussion
Gaddock Teeg Hatebears
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Control
Zacama, Primal Calamity Naya Control
Erebos, God of the dead Mono-Black Superfriends
That said I still run them, and I'm a particular sucker for the partners
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Of the 9 Commanders considered T1 only Zur and Tazri weren't printed in any Commander product. Tier 1.5 though has 12/16 being non-product Legends.
I gotta say i'm undecided about a few of your arguments. For one i don't really like "Blue Sky" Commanders, because i enjoy synergetic plays with the commander - on both sides of the table - and unless you're basically netdecking, because your commander has such a tight theme, that all decks look the same, i really enjoy checking out brews.
That being said Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Azorius Goodstuff or else is as boring as it gets for my taste.
But, i have to admit, i'm not too fond of the power level of some of the more recent commanders. While i enjoy powerful decks and commanders, Ydris, Maelstrom Wielder, Breya, Etherium Shaper, Kess, Dissident Mage and others are just borderline dull for their ridiculous potential.
If i were to decide i'd design Commanders less powerful than those, just to avoid power creep with each new Commander Set. It's great to support the format, especially with fresh Faces for our Brews, but it has come at a balanced level, not to push the limitations of the game each year.
This is kind of how I feel, I run a mix of Commander set commanders, commanders made before WotC officially recognized Commander, and commanders made after the advent of Commander sets.
Arguably, the Commander set Commanders are "easy mode" being specifically designed to be in the Command Zone, while Legendary creatures printed after 2012 sort of have this weird non-verbal agreement to be somewhat commander oriented (explaining why there's outcry over cards like Dragonlord Kolaghan), and Legendary creatures printed before 2012 are usually the most difficult to break, aside from a few exceptions.
But these kinds of Commanders all exist to satisfy everyone's desires, some players just want to win regardless of the expansion symbol, some players like the challenge of making a deck using Legends Legendaries, in the end I guess it's up to the player what kind of deckbuilding experience and gameplay they want.
UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm
WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse
UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare
WBG Karador, the Bridge Between
WU Grand Warden Augustin IV
RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening
BG Nath Addict
UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame
B Kokusho, the Mourning Star
U Memnarch is All
I am a big fan of the partners as well, I was bummed when they didn't print new one in the recent set. The partners feel like closer to the old school commanders in term of power level. I like to run them as a single commander sometimes as opposed to partnering them up.
Blue Sky Commander in my opinion just allow me to play the best card from the colors. Within that I can find synergies from the cards without depending so much on the commander. I guess I like my game plans are not influenced by the identity of the commander.
Well, about netdecking, how many times you saw the Meren guy gonna play what Meren do 90% of the time? some goes with other New Age Commanders. This commander has a built in strategy that so dominant that every players gonna gravitates toward that way. I am not hating them for that, but once in a while why don't you bring your own deck that has a different game plan than what people used to see. I feel they are missing the fun of deck building, the design within limits aspect of Magic.
Wizards have to be smarter on designing the next commander set. Most of this commanders product are only good for commander format. Why this has to be this way? This is a lazy design in my opinion. I am not saying make a commander card that good in modern, standard, vintage and commander format altogether, but by introducing Eminence and Experience counter that just make the card absolute in other formats. Not to mention how to stop Eminence or Experience counter? This way Wizards just make an unnecessary "thinking outside the box" decision that looks amateur in my opinion. There are so many untapped potential within the box, why don't they exert all the potential before branching to this "cheaply made" decision?
Note: I know Solemnity stop experience counter, but you got my point. Making a new card that stop a newly created, unnecessary problem.
Gosh I can write an essay about this
Gaddock Teeg Hatebears
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Control
Zacama, Primal Calamity Naya Control
Erebos, God of the dead Mono-Black Superfriends
Also, I don't understand how you can call Captain Sisay blue sky. Maybe it was not designed for edh, but it certainly is a build-around card that is played with a bunch of legendary creatures.
In any case, there are legendary creatures that are made today that aren't made for commander. The commander products are skewed towards being build-around me cards exploring new space, and I like what they have done. I understand your dislike for Meren.. you are right, there is basically one way to build her. But a lot of people really love that style of play and really like the way Meren enables that deck.
I would also argue that the more a card lends itself to a certain archetype (reanimator, for example), the easier it is to lock out of the game with hate pieces.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
A lot of it is also casual versus competitive. Kaalia can bring out things like Baneslayer Angel and Ryusei, the Falling Star, or she can bring out things like Iona, Shield of Emeria and Chancellor of the Annex to really screw up your day. Competitive Kaalia makes us understand Liliana's feelings about angels.
Animar can be a fun creature deck, or he can use Shrieking Drake and Aluren to storm out.
Ghave can be just different sizes of armies, or he can imprison you without even dropping a single island until he pulls off an ∞-point Exsanguinate or just Young Wolf/Blood Artists you.
Zedruu can be cute way to gain card advantage and play politricks, or she can revive Trix.
Derevi can be a nice aggro token commander, or she can lock you down with Winter Orb and Meekstone and Glare of Subdual.
Roon can just be a midrange Bant deck, or he can Stonehorn Dignitary you.
Sydri can be a cute artifact commander, or she can make it impossible to attack with Caltrops.
Oloro can just be a boring wall, or he can Sanguine Bond or Felidar Sovereign or Divinity of Pride you to death.
Nekusar can be just a slightly griefy storm deck, or he can Prosperity everyone to death or just drop Teferi's Puzzle Box or Forced Fruition.
Prossh can be just cute Voltron, or he can go infinite very easily.
Marath can be just a "fixed" Ghave, or he can go infinite almost as easily as Prossh.
Ezuri, Claw of Progress can just be a cute proliferate/Gilder Bairn deck, or he can take everyone's turn. (Still not nearly as bad as Narset, who can basically just use infinite turns and combo steps to kill everyone.)
So, that's casual versus competitive.
On phasing:
Breya, Etherium Shaper is obscenely strong. But then so is Arcum Dagsson and Memnarch.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is crazy good, but Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary was so good they banned him.
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist can be a combo machine, but so can Azami, Lady of Scrolls.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest was oppressive enough to be banned, but Gaddock Teeg has been around a long time too, so has Hokori, Dust Drinker and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
I get what you mean by 'bluesky generals' I think. Generals with a few different ways to go, whether it be goodstuff or something more directed. I don't necessarily think Wizards are printing anything these days thats more broken than what's been printed in the last 10-15 years though.
It does seem there are more players around more interested in very competitive decks, and there's no dearth of choices there; but the same people didn't have NO choices a decade ago either, you just would've seen less variation in Commanders.
I DO prefer a more casual, less cutthroat commander personally, as I prefer arm wrestle games. Not exclusively, I do run a Ghave, Guru of Spores deck, and a Sydri, Galvanic Genius deck, both known for combo, but I do still try to steer clear of combo where possible.
My two cents, FWIW.
I guess the fact that they are easy to build around is... a bit of a turn-off? However, someone without my level of knowledge on cards may find it to their advantage to build around them.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Regarding Captain Sisay, you’re right that she has a build around strategy. But I still count her as a blue sky because she doesn’t ‘force’ player to play certain strategy. She is a legendary tutor at best. The legendary cards that you put into your Sisay’s deck are the one that are going to dictate your play style.
Yes, the more narrow the game plan (reanimation or graveyard shenanigans) the easier to get lock out of the game. Hence in my opinion leads to bad deck-building. This narrow-oriented deck only good against players that are usually just started playing. Against more experienced player, that deck would be dealt easily.
Any commander can be built near their top potential. Maybe GAAIV or Sisay weren’t a good example but they don’t direct you to play in a certain way. GAAIV can be play as stax or blue-white draw go control, while Sisay can also be played as stax or tool box. On the other hand, please tell me otherwise when you see Meren, you don’t see a strong reanimator theme there? Or Mizzix with his spell-slinging theme? The Fact that the commanders make it so easy to abuse certain thing, it drains me.
I agree, I love the flavor so much. Sometimes I wonder, why Wizards don’t save the powerful mechanics for the characters that more deserving (flavor-wise) :P. The likes of Teysa, Agrus-Kos, or Feather.
Interesting read, thanks for the article :D. Yes, linear and modular are a better terms for this case. I wonder if Maro was the head of design of Commander products, would he green-lights these ‘Eminence’, ‘Experience Counter’ or other narrow-design commander that push way out of the box? hmm…
I beg to differ on Kess, Dissident Mage and Dralnu, Lich Lord. I think Kess is an upgrade version of Dralnu, but I can agree to disagree on that one.
Yes, I like your comparison on these general, the old commanders can be fine tune to do what these new commanders can do, but the new commanders are already half the engine of what you are trying to pull off in those old commander. That justify my point how ridiculous over-powered these commanders are.
It is a turn-off. I just want people to not just playing the commanders that are easy to build around. At some point you have to try to build an old school commander whether it is linear or modular. You will appreciate more when you build your engine from scratch, and losing or winning in a game would mean less to you because of your appreciation to your work.
Gaddock Teeg Hatebears
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Control
Zacama, Primal Calamity Naya Control
Erebos, God of the dead Mono-Black Superfriends
Today there are a lot more cards that are "one-card combo's" so to speak, just add mana. I don't neccesarily feel that's for better or worse, but it is different.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
It just a term that I use (for lacking of better term) for a 'modular' commander. What I mean by that (Blue sky/modular) is commanders that don't have a particular game plan to build around it, but they act as a utility piece of your deck. Think like Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Captain Sisay or Child of Alara. As opposed to Linear commander like Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Mizzix of the Izmagnus or Kaalia of the Vast.
Gaddock Teeg Hatebears
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Control
Zacama, Primal Calamity Naya Control
Erebos, God of the dead Mono-Black Superfriends
there really isn't much difference between something like captain sisay and meren, or mizzix and azami. old commanders could be just as buildaroundme as new ones. there are less ragnar's now, but there were still a lot of old commanders that said here's what i do, build a deck around it for success. i think the real factor here is exposure and volume. there are more people playing commander now so you generally run into a greater diversity of decks, with more legends to choose from in the past 6 years that orient around a certain theme or archetype.
have you ever seen a sisay deck that isn't legend vomit?
grand arbiter that doesn't make it increasingly more taxing to play your spells?
a savra deck that doesn't sacrifice things?
i'm just not understanding where you're coming from honestly.
sure a lot of older legends feel out classed,but anything can be built to be competitive. i don't know, it seems more like you're issue is that commanders are built around rather than being a 99 card pile of good stuff? i'm not quite grasping this one.
You officially lost me at saying Captain Sisay doesn't have to be played one way. Every Sisay deck is virtually identical by virtue of Sisay's ability just screaming to make you play Legendary cards.
Sure the last couple commander sets have been creatures usually about something, so the decks come naturally geared to aid that synergy which makes them better out of the box making the foremat more accessible to new players. Would you really want to buy or play an Arahbo, Roar of the World deck if it wasn't filled with various cats? This year was all about tribal so yes they're going be a build around for the tribe centric general with the big card. However they do include back up choices so you can go a different direction. If you want to focus on equipment then Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith might be more your deal and less on cats. He could be at the helm of a deck with no other cats and still be very effective. Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist on the other hand is pretty open ended, and can do a mixture of either theme, or something different all together.
The four color generals of last year were generally about a concept, but even they have some room to make a deck about other things. Atraxa, Praetors' Voice could be put at the helm of tons of different decks since her ability helps many things. You can make a deck with energy, +1/+1 counters, experience generals, poison/infect ,planswalkers or any combo of them. She's super versatile on top of just being a really good beat stick. The partners allow you play different colors and styles together. These are the most open ended thing made in the commander sets, hopefully they get more in future sets. (I'd prefer they make 10 tri-color partners and 10 mono-colored ones if they did a new batch.)
Ultimately in magic, You have too little focus your deck has an identity crisis as does nothing particularly well but the greater the focus the easier it is to hate it out as it's hyper specialized. If someone deck got tons of enchantments or artifacts in it...guess what? play stuff that wrecks those or neutralizes them like Stony Silence and VandalBlast. If they're playing storm or some sort of combo deck, play a Curse of Exhaustion or Arcane Laboratory. They play a mono white, hit em with Flashfires or Anarchy. They play a certain tribe...then play cards that murder targeted creature types such as Tsabo's Decree, Extinction or lock em down with An-Zerrin Ruins. Whatever it is you're struggling against you probably aren't packing the proper tools to counter them then. Always adapt to your meta and bringing out the kryptonite that suits your targets accordingly. Anything can be broken, just got hit it hard enough or in the right spot.
I'd argue Captain Sisay's more linear than Meren or Mizzix. Creatures dying happens in every game. So does casting instants and sorceries.
Keep in mind, a modular card doesn't mean it isn't a combo machine. Ghave, Guru of Spores takes advantage of every Abzan card that likes creatures entering the battlefield, likes having a bunch of creatures out, likes creatures attacking, likes creatures dealing damage, likes creatures dying, likes to kill creatures, likes being killed, likes using +1/+1 counters, or makes +1/+1 counters. Oh, and it has synergy with Doubling Season.
On phasing:
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
See how cherry picking examples throws bias into the argument and can misrepresent reality? I don't fully disagree, but I do take issue with some of your statements. True, there have been a lot of powerful legends created due to the format's popularity. True, the precons are popular and a lot of players either start Commander with them or get them for new cards. But that doesn't mean "new cards bad, old cards good."
Personally, I'm glad they keep printing new and exciting things. I like building new decks and trying new strategies. I like that the precons build excitement and interest in the format. And I like that they can explore design space and experiment with abilities and mechanics that wouldn't fit in a normal set.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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I feel that we get sidetracked a bit from the main discussion because the example that I present. I have seen a bunch of different Sisay deck. Stax build and Token are two of them. Granted they are might not be as competitive as the top build Sisay, but they can held their ground. I just like the fact that you can use her as an utility piece rather than solely depends on her. You are right Sisay screams for Legendary, but there are so many legendary cards out there. To generalize ‘playing legendary’ as one dominant strategy is just a stretch tbh.
Yes, Savra fall into this ‘linear’ strategy. But you need a lot of pieces to set your engine. You need a sac outlet, you need a token maker or any spell that can recur your creature. Now look at Meren, Meren might need a grave pact, but does she need a sac outlet? no. ‘The whenever creature you control dies (not only sac) clause on Meren’ is just way too powerful and abbuse-able. Do you need a token maker for Meren? No. Do you need a recursion engine? Lol..Absolutely not, lastly is she harder to cast than Savra? Back to my point, she is half or most of the part of the engine what the ‘old style’ commander trying to do.
Ok, GAAIV. He himself make your opponents pay one mana more to cast a spell and make you spell cost 2 less at best. From this point of view this card already oppressive. What about Mizzix? Have you ever seen a Mizzix player cast a Stroke of Genius, drawing 5 cards by paying 1 blue? What about Cyclonic Rift Overload for 1 blue? Or Capsize lock you with 2 blue? Ok, let’s kill him, do his 6+ experience counters gone? lol.
True. But do they have to stretch out and make a mechanic called “Eminence” to make it appealing to play cat, vampire or dragon deck? This is breaking the format, you don’t have to cast your commander to reap the benefit. Oh one more thing, some as experience counter, they are not “removable” in current meta (God forbid they print something like Solemnity to deal with eminence).
Yes, I like the 4 colors commanders cycle, they are not narrow-minded as some of the new commander. Preach on the partner commander . Most of them in the right power level, the new non-partner commander should just be slightly overpower than them but not broken Imo.
Hmm..not sure Ghave can be consider modular (discussion for different day) Imo, but again, he is broken in a way that he is half of the engine of what you plan to do.
They are bad in term of general design of the game. Can you use Mizzix or Meren in other format not Commander? Of course not. This card is so one dimensional in term of the general function of the game, and also very narrow in the format (commander) itself. However they are very easy to use and abuse, that’s why they become popular. Imo this will lead to poor deck building skill because the ‘easy’ nature of the commander. I think this is the nature of the beast from now on. You can do broken things easily and make it more accessible so you can get ‘excitement’ and more players (money).
True, but the Experience Counter doesn’t go right? Can I build a deck that death-locks a Meren or Mizzix player? Yes, but I wouldn’t do it because it won’t be fun for me and it’s not the point of playing Magic.
Gaddock Teeg Hatebears
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Control
Zacama, Primal Calamity Naya Control
Erebos, God of the dead Mono-Black Superfriends
Personally, I don't mind most of the Commander decks, though I do wish the EDH committee would take a bit of a harder line against cards that power creep too fast.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
Zur is incredibly powerful and wasn't even designed for commander. Elamadri is banned. If they didn't have a product for multi player creatures, maybe the standard-legal products would have more out-there creatures but we wouldn't get anything designed for commander specifically.
Additionally, one could argue it's better to put a little bit of extra power into the commander rather than the deck as it allows players with limited collections to still have powerful things to do every game.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill