I'm looking at making a deck based around alternative win conditions. The rule of the deck is that every card with a built in "you win the game" clause must be included unless impossible in EDH (ie Battle of Wits.
What I'm after are enablers for these wincons. Mainly cards that are decent at enabling several different wincons rather than one card that is insta-win with one wincon and useless for the others. It's still early days so I know there will be a ton of cards that I haven't thought of or which are straight up better than what I'm currently planning to use.
Please note; as much as possible I'm looking for non-instant means of achieving a win with these cards. For example, Chance Encounter + Frentic Efreet is less an alternative wincon and more an infinite style combo that ends the game immediately. The whole point of this deck is to be a combo deck without that element of combo.
To help with suggestions I've grouped a number of these wincons together based on their requirements and shown cards that I have for specific wincons or which can influence several wincons.
This is possibly the hardest wincon for me to build around. It's combo pieces are mostly useless outside of the win, it seems to be difficult to synergise with other wincons, and actively nonbos with a number of the lifegain ones.
I currently dislike this wincon a lot, as it either goes infinite with Frenetic Efreet or does nothing. Impulsive Maneuvers is an attempt to build a non-infinite version of the wincon.
My favourite wincons as their specific cards are wincons in their own right and lifegain synergises easily with various mechanics - in this case providing fatties for Mayael's Aria.
Another one of those insta-win or bust wincons, not too happy about it.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
If your mana base can handle it, Necropotence is another enabler for Near-Death Experience, and is a lot better on its own than the other enablers you've listed for that wincon.
I tried building something like this just in Naya and it was a disaster. Each of these wincons want something competely different from your deck and there's just no building a halfway decent deck that can achieve even one of it's goals if you run all. You'll be better of selecting no more than 4 or 5 that can be achieved by one or two global stratgies for your deck and try to make those work.
I tried building a Naya deck with doubling season and token doublers and played some token generators (to go wide for Epic Struggle) and thr Hydra's got big for Mayael's Anima. I played some lifelink giving stuff so the creatures could gain me a lot of life for Test of Endurance. Maybe you're a better deckbuilder than I am but I couldn't get that to run consistent.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
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I tried building something like this just in Naya and it was a disaster. Each of these wincons want something competely different from your deck and there's just no building a halfway decent deck that can achieve even one of it's goals if you run all. You'll be better of selecting no more than 4 or 5 that can be achieved by one or two global stratgies for your deck and try to make those work.
I tried building a Naya deck with doubling season and token doublers and played some token generators (to go wide for Epic Struggle) and thr Hydra's got big for Mayael's Anima. I played some lifelink giving stuff so the creatures could gain me a lot of life for Test of Endurance. Maybe you're a better deckbuilder than I am but I couldn't get that to run consistent.
Yeah it seems like the possibility of it being a 'good' deck is pretty slim. However the deck is mainly there to be something for our turbo-casual games and lets me play 'combo' without feeling bad. I want to try and run every wincon for the style points but I'm imagining that some of the more iffy ones will get cut in the first major revision of the decklist.
If your mana base can handle it, Necropotence is another enabler for Near-Death Experience, and is a lot better on its own than the other enablers you've listed for that wincon.
This is why I made the thread lol, such an obvious replacement for those cards. Triple black is a bit rough but if I'm at the levels of mana needed for NDE I can probably scrape that much together.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
I'm personally pondering building a casual deck around Maze's End + Approach of the Second Sun as wincons. The rest is still wide open though, so i'm not much further than that at this point. I think it should be able to make this run consistent enough as you don't need to devote much slots to it. Probably Crucible of Worlds, Ramunap Excavator, Life From the Loam, Pull From Eternity and Rift Sweeper to prevent permanent disruption of the combo's.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
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Hedron Alignment is impossible in Commander. There is no way to have a Hedron Alignment simultaneously in exile, in your graveyard, and in your hand. You could have one in any one of those three zones plus the battlefield, but not all three.
Your list is missing Test of Endurance, which matches up positively with Felidar Sovereign and Celestial Convergence.
I'm going to chime in with the others and suggest focusing your alt win cards a bit more. Trying to jam everything just isn't going to work out. I recently built Treva life gain, and I'm running Approach of the Second Sun, Felidar Sovereign, Test of Endurance, and Laboratory Maniac (Horizon Chimera + Drogskol Reaver is infinite card draw), and many of my wins with the deck have been with one of those. The games I win some other way are almost exclusively on the back of Archangel of Thune (though sometimes it's a win by pumping up Inkmoth Nexus).
Some things that work for my Approach of the Second Sun:
I am running Research // Development to add additional Hedron Archives and Biovisionaries to my deck.
I love those suggestions for Approach, will look at adding them in.
The whole point of the deck is to run all of the wincons. I'm well aware that this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the deck. But in our jankfest matches you get major style points for running "all" of something and very little for running a streamlined efficient version. For example, my friend's deck is an Axe tribal deck, where every card except for lands has an axe in its art. Theres no style points in "most" of the cards having axes, but heaps if they all do. In the same vein the deck loses it's personality if it is "some" or "most" of the wincons, the whole point is to run them all, at least in the first draft.
If I was going to focus the deck, it would be an all in Hedron Archive deck because I consider that the jankiest of the wincons.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Easy mana for thenexsoensive win cons and you can throw in door to nothingness to elimitnate someone just like that.
And nobody pointed this trick yet have you heard of fractured identity from commander 2017
"Exile target permanent the controllers opponents gains a copy of the permanent."
And let me leave this here phage the untouchable if this is your and you shoot it with fractured identity congratulations you just instaniously won the game the
Phage said "when this enters the battle if it was not cast from your hand you loose the game" so since your opponents gain a copy of it it triggers the you loose the game etc effect for every single opponent and I don't think you have to worry about ramming into a platinum angel too much. Oh and you can do the exact same thing with Demonic Pact
You get protection from everything
Your life total cannot be change
And most importantly it phases out all permanents you control
What happens is it protects your win con all the way to the next upkeep they phase in on untap phase which is before the upkeep phase the upkeep trigger activates it
And just to clarify tokens/counters do not get removed permanently from this.
If you cast this it's impossible for the opponents to stop the win con that you got ready to go.
I am running Research // Development to add additional Hedron Archives and Biovisionaries to my deck.
You need to clear that with your playgroup. Both allowing a wish to do anything, and allowing the wish to pull in copies of cards you're already running.
I am running Research // Development to add additional Hedron Archives and Biovisionaries to my deck.
If your group allows for this you could run Spawnsire of Ulamog in order to fullfill Battle of Wits by instantly playing 200 Endless Ones, 1 Inverter of Truth and 1 Emrakul, The Promised End per opponent. The Endless Ones die first, then Inverter instantly stuffs them into your library. The Emmies prevent (most) disruption by opponents. At the beginning of your next turn, Battle wins you the game.
If you use Trait Doctoring or a similar card to change Eldrazi to Human or Wizard you can immediately cast 4 (or more) Biovisinary's from outside the game.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I am running Research // Development to add additional Hedron Archives and Biovisionaries to my deck.
If your group allows for this you could run Spawnsire of Ulamog in order to fullfill Battle of Wits by instantly playing 200 Endless Ones, 1 Inverter of Truth and 1 Emrakul, The Promised End per opponent. The Endless Ones die first, then Inverter instantly stuffs them into your library. The Emmies prevent (most) disruption by opponents. At the beginning of your next turn, Battle wins you the game.
If you use Trait Doctoring or a similar card to change Eldrazi to Human or Wizard you can immediately cast 4 (or more) Biovisinary's from outside the game.
Re; research // development I don't see a need to clear it with a playgroup, but even if I did I know they'd be fine with it.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
pucatrade
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3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
I am running Research // Development to add additional Hedron Archives and Biovisionaries to my deck.
Bah, if you really want Hedron Alignment to work in EDH, you just need to bring in some uncards rather than wishboards....
Play Hedron Alignment
Copy it with Copy Enchantment (your in play copy)
Use something like Return to Dust to exile the original (your exiled copy)
Get a _____ into your graveyard, activate it's ability naming Hedron Alignment (your graveyard copy)
Cast Booster Tutor, crack an OGW pack, get lucky and open a Hedron Alignment (your in hand copy)
Win
Not the most exciting of things, but if you have no tutors for Approach of the Second Sun (I can imagine a alt-wincon deck being extremely demanding of tutors overall already), you could just Remand/Unsubstantiate your own Approach and cast it again to win.
Regardless of technique, that win-con/combo is very mana-hungry, so besides ensuring ramp, it wouldn't hurt to try playing As Foretold, especially when a lot of your other wincons are counter-dependent (so the counter-matters cards would also help As Foretold).
I'll be blunt and admit I'm already thinking that the deck is a trainwreck of sorts, especially when my pillowfort runs Felidar Sovereign and Azor's Elocutors (no Test of Endurance because it's almost a do-nothing besides help Sphere of Safety otherwise compared to the others) along with Approach and the chances are I probably have a better chance winning with the planeswalkers in the deck which were intended to be a secondary "pillowfort" of sorts for my life total rather than wincons. Either that, or everyone else chose to beat each other up instead that my Commander could potentially finish the job because everyone forgets she has 6 power.
You need need to choose one teo ot tbree and scarp the rest. Too many directions rkght now. Some ca work in their own right, but ou cant use tbem all efficdntly.
Re; research // development I don't see a need to clear it with a playgroup, but even if I did I know they'd be fine with it.
Wishes do not do anything in Commander without agreement from the group. When they do do something, the default assumption is that you're following the suggested rules on mtgcommander.com, which is that the wish is pulling from a sideboard of 10 cards, which still has the 1-of restrictions from your main deck. Under that, if you had Hedron Alignment in your deck, you couldn't have any Hedron Alignments in your sideboard.
So yeah, you really do need to clear it with your group.
This post is amazing, with a ton of fantastic stuggestions.
For starters, I love the idea of including loss conditions in the deck too. The Phage / Fractured Identity combination, as well as possibly some shenanigans with Demonic Pact (my favourite black card and the cornerstone of my only 'serious' modern deck) make it too good to pass that up.
Re; Ramos as the general - agreed, theres no effective synergistic 5c general for the wincons themselves but Ramos does give you a solid threat that can soak removal and potential ramp, and use as a door enabler is fantastic.
Regarding suggestions for cards, I'm mostly looking for suggestions that either support several strategies to a lesser extent rather than insta-combo with one strategy, or cards that are useful in their own right *and* support a wincon.
[b]Near-Death Experience;[/b]
Repay in kind - too nonbo with my lifegain wincons
Soulgorger - probably too bad outside of the combo. I am wondering if there could be some play with sac outlets and cards like Rhox Faithmender to synergise with his on-death lifegain
Ad Nauseam - a great suggestion as it can provide some card advantage
Hatred - is to be considered. The possibility of a kill out of nowhere by swinging with some value dork is too good to pass up.
Necropotence - has already been suggested, but it is probably the best enabler I've seen.
Minion of the Wastes - I'm unsure about this. He's risky for enabling the combo due to being sorcery speed, but he can also be a flexible threat coming in as a 39/39 or midway as a 20/20 etc.
Poltergeist - is a solid enabler for NDE but a useless card otherwise, so I'm less inclined to run it.
Second Chance - I really don't know what to think about this one. I think if we're at 5 life in the upkeep, we've probably found a way to drop to exactly 1 or are in a situation where this card isn't that great. It looks mostly like an expensive draw step to try and topdeck a win? Less inclined to this one unless someone can convince me otherwise.
Hex Parasite - It took me this long to realize this guy has a phyrexian cost for his ability. Instead of an upgrade to Vampire Hexmage this critter is a full on combo enabler that can eat planeswalkers and the likes. Definitely coming into the deck.
[b]Mechanized Production / Revel / Hellkite[/b]
Wraths - Yes I did remember that! But rather than focus on wraths I'm more inclined to enable this card using repeated sacrifice engines (ideally non-infinite)
Curse of Opulence - A maybe card. I love curses and I love this curse and I want to like it, but is it good enough?
Spell Swindle - Iffy due to the high cost but I think this one is likely to be included due to the general usefulness of a counterspell
Myr Battlesphere - I want to say no because I abuse this thing in several decks already, but it does tick a lot of boxes and is enabled easily by the clones that will be run for biovisionary.
Sharding Sphinx - Would be dependent on the end accessibility of artifact creatures. This guy and myr battlesphere are strong together, but is there enough synergy elsewhere?
Annointed Procession etc - Doubling season is in, not sure if other similar effects are necessary.
Mycosynth Lattice - I don't run this card on principle, but yeah it would work damn well.
[b]Biovisionary[/b]
Clones - Several different clones are on the list already because they work so well with so many aspects of the deck
Kiki-Jiki - I'm a long term advocate of this card, he's definitely in as a flexible clone effect.
Saheeli's Artistry - While there are a few artifacts to copy I think its not enough to warrant the expensive clone
Infinite Reflection - This is tempting. I don't like the idea of insta-win with biovisionary, but I love the versatility that comes from reflecting Myr Battlesphere etc. Definitely in.
Followed Footsteps - This has never worked for me in the past, I think I'll pass on it.
Flameshadow Conjuring - If the final build has enough ETB effects this is a great inclusion, otherwise it's not amazing for biovisonary due to an inability to keep the visionaries over time
Splinter Twin - Largely as Flameshadow or Kiki. Depending on how effective these look in the final build it could be a third version of the effect.
[b]High Life WIns[/b]
Test of Endurance: I've left it out because it's identical in overall effect to Fellidar Sovereign, but more boring in that it doesn't do anything else.
Rhox Faithmender - I'm thinking it can do shenanigans with Soulgorger and is a solid enabler for the various lifegain synergies. In.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation - Too passive and can interfere with attempts to reduce life to 1 for NDE.
Well of Lost Dreams - This one is already in, such fantastic draw potential
Alhammarret's Archive - Fantastic effect, will try it out and see if its too expensive.
Fumigate - I love the idea of building up tokens for Epic Struggle and then flipping over to a lifegain wincon using this. In.
Beacon of Immortality - I'd prefer to avoid cards that do nothing but life.
Exsanguinate - This card gets too many groans from me and my playgroup so I'm going to leave it out.
Debt to the Deathless - As exsanguinate
Platinum Emperion - Would probably get in the way of gaining enough life more often than would be liked.
Wall of Reverence - Would work fantastically as a constant source of lifegain, synergy with the fatties from Mayael, and a good blocker. Will definitely look into this one.
[b]Mayael's Anima[/card]
-Dark Depths combo: I had initially looked at this combo and dismissed it as not a "win the game effect" but I didn't clue on that it triggers the anima. I think I'll run Thespian Stage (to support Maze End), Hex Parasite and Depths.
-Serra's Avatar: I'm on the fence with this. Its fantastic for Anima, ties into the lifegain and will likely proc the lifegain with cards like Wall of Reverence. But its also very expensive and white heavy. Will definitely keep it in mind.
-Mossbridge Troll: I do like this one, will keep it in mind as like Serra it's hard to decide which pricey fatties can make the cut.
-Other suggestions: Too much a case of no effect fatties for me.
[b]Barren Glory[/b]
I think I'll limit this one to O-ring and Apocalypse. I don't want to run land D as my group hates it, so the cycling part of decree isn't useful. Kaervik's Spite is just sitting in my trade folder begging to be used but it's too niche outside of a dedicated barren deck - I think I'd rather just rely on casting my entire hand.
Epic Struggle
Mycoloth, Avenger - This is a great suggestion as it also fulfils mayael's anima
Rampaging - THis one will be down to how many large fatties end up in the deck. If I run a lot I'll be inclined to run the green draw that can benefit from the beasts.
Aura Mutation - Removal and support for a wincon makes this my type of card
Others - Storm Herd is a maybe (10 mana wtf) but not keen on the others
[b]Darksteel etc[/b]
Vorel, Gilder - a superstar for all of these, and also for the +1 avenues for hitting Mayael.
Deepglow Skate - a maybe due to the one off effect
Winding Constrictor - consistent bonus for all counter based effects is good by me.
Mana storage / increase - Will consider this approach. It definitely enables some of the stupid expensive options for the other wincons such as Storm Herd
[b]Lab Maniac[/b]
This card alongside Mortal Combat weren't mentioned because I want to rely on heavy duty draw and looting as opposed to dedicated self-mill to enable these.
[b]Tree/Trisk[/b]
I love these lose the game triggers, I will just slam this in for S&G and see how we go
EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Specifically Haze supports Azor's Elocutors, Mayael's Aria, Biovisionary(via Progenitor Mimic), Epic Struggle(via Mycoloth amd maybe mimic on something like Battlesphere)
Honestly it would surprise you how helpful an extra upkeep can be.
Ooh and I just remembered Assemble the Legion for Struggle(and maybe the life gain ones with Trostani, this one card makes me wish I could run her as Naya) and it is a reasonable win con on it's own if left alone to long. Could definitely see not taking this one though.
Oh no, assemble the legion is too close to my heart to leave out of a deck if I can justify it.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
tempting wurm let me explain its a way of getting opponents to say "it's a trap" after you play the wurm and whatever they play out then play revel in riches then just Blasphemous Act the board that's a lot of treasure tokens
Actually any hydra is good for this one Primordial Hydra is by far the best one for this alt win second place goes to Genesis Hydra for cheating out a permanent Heroes' Bane for third
The dinosaurs bring a lot of stuff to the table too
Never mentioned this one but now I found stuff I'm giving explanations for each
Amulet of Vigor "enter tapped" Get out now!!! Tempt with Discovery trust me it's almost impossible for them to resist this offer despite seeing a gate or the maze's end Hour of Promise get any two gates or the ending to the field Ramunap Excavator/crucible of worlds or/and Splendid Reclamation safety net in case they get rid of the them to the grave also I heard there are tutors to get lands to the graveyard Crop Rotation switch out one of you basics for a gate Gatecreeper Vine gate tutor ladies and genltemen Life from the Loam yet another return from grave safety Realms Uncharted see there is a tutor lands to your graveyard stuff Rites of Flourishing actually any other card that does the same thing "play a additional land" cards permanent or spell Terra Eternal make sure nothing happens to your gates from destroy land sweeps plus it group hug so they will most likely leave it alone Manabond how many gates are in your hand put them all on in just one turn
And now best for last Scapeshift doesn't get any better than this if you have 11 lands switch them all out for the gates and maze's end with this if your brave enough to take a huge bite out of your wallet. Hopefully will get a reprint soon.
Remember, it's only about 62 nonland cards per deck people! With all the suggestions so far, if OP really wants to run them all, he basically just has to shuffle up a pile of altwins, play one every turn and just pray one of them will trigger.
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What I'm after are enablers for these wincons. Mainly cards that are decent at enabling several different wincons rather than one card that is insta-win with one wincon and useless for the others. It's still early days so I know there will be a ton of cards that I haven't thought of or which are straight up better than what I'm currently planning to use.
Please note; as much as possible I'm looking for non-instant means of achieving a win with these cards. For example, Chance Encounter + Frentic Efreet is less an alternative wincon and more an infinite style combo that ends the game immediately. The whole point of this deck is to be a combo deck without that element of combo.
Wincons; Near-Death Experience, Hellkite Tyrant, Mechanized Production, Revel in Riches, Maze's End, Laboratory Maniac, Mortal COmbat, CHance Encounter, Biovisionary, Hedron Alignment, Barren Glory, Mayael's Aria, Epic Struggle, Darksteel Reactor, Helix Pinnacle, Azor's Elocutors, Approach of the Second Sun, Felidar Sovereign, Celestial Convergence.
To help with suggestions I've grouped a number of these wincons together based on their requirements and shown cards that I have for specific wincons or which can influence several wincons.
Near-Death Experience
Specific Cards; Wall of Blood, Volcanic Hellion, Fortune Thief
Shared Cards; N/A
This is possibly the hardest wincon for me to build around. It's combo pieces are mostly useless outside of the win, it seems to be difficult to synergise with other wincons, and actively nonbos with a number of the lifegain ones.
Mechanized Production, Revel in Riches, Hellkite Tyrant
Shared Theme; Win via quantity of artifacts
Specific Cards:
Shared Cards: Doubling Season, Nuisance Engine, Progenitor Mimic, Genesis Chamber
One of the easiest build-arounds, all three cards have some value outside of the wincon and they all naturally synergise to some extent.
Biovisionary, Hedron ALignment
SHared Theme: WIn via copies of the same card
Specific Cards: Research // Development
Shared Cards: Progenitor Mimic, Rite of Replication, Riku of Two Reflections
THis one is really pushing it due to the singleton nature of EDH, but the idea of winning with Hedron Alignment is just too sweet to pass up.
Chance Encounter
Shared Theme: Coin Toss
Specific Cards: Frenetic Efreet, Impulsive Maneuvers
Shared Cards: N/A
I currently dislike this wincon a lot, as it either goes infinite with Frenetic Efreet or does nothing. Impulsive Maneuvers is an attempt to build a non-infinite version of the wincon.
Felidar Sovereign, Celestial Convergence
Shared Theme: Win via high life total
Specific Cards: Aetherflux Reservoir, Approach of the Second Sun
Shared Cards: Cradle of Vitality, Crested Sunmare, Vampire Hexmage, Trostani, Selesyna's Voice, Primeval Bounty
My favourite wincons as their specific cards are wincons in their own right and lifegain synergises easily with various mechanics - in this case providing fatties for Mayael's Aria.
Mayael's Aria
Theme: Win via fatties
Specific Cards: N/A
Shared Cards: Doubling Season, Cathars Crusade, various token making fatties (Dragonlair Spider, Ant Queen, Avemger of Zendikar), Cradle of Vitality, Crested Sunmare, Greater Gargodon, Primeval Bounty
A hard one to pull off the win with but easy to synergise with due to just requiring that cards be 5/5 or greater.
Barren Glory
Specific Cards: Enchantment based removal (Oblivion Ring), Obliterate
I just cannot see this one being pulled off without a whole deck dedicated to enabling it.
Epic Struggle
Theme: Win via large # of creatures
Shared Cards: Cathars Crusade, various token fatties, Rapacious One, Trostani, Selesyna's Voice, Nuisance Engine, Trading Post, Primeval Bounty, Riku of Two Reflections
Has a lot of synergies with other wincons but is hard to achieve itself.
Darksteel Reactor, Helix Pinnacle
Theme: Gather counters
Shared Cards: Doubling Season
Azor's Elecutors
Theme: Remove COunters
Shared Cards: Vampire Hexmage
Another one of those insta-win or bust wincons, not too happy about it.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI tried building a Naya deck with doubling season and token doublers and played some token generators (to go wide for Epic Struggle) and thr Hydra's got big for Mayael's Anima. I played some lifelink giving stuff so the creatures could gain me a lot of life for Test of Endurance. Maybe you're a better deckbuilder than I am but I couldn't get that to run consistent.
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Bah, thanks for the heads up. I really like Hex Parasite!
Yeah it seems like the possibility of it being a 'good' deck is pretty slim. However the deck is mainly there to be something for our turbo-casual games and lets me play 'combo' without feeling bad. I want to try and run every wincon for the style points but I'm imagining that some of the more iffy ones will get cut in the first major revision of the decklist.
This is why I made the thread lol, such an obvious replacement for those cards. Triple black is a bit rough but if I'm at the levels of mana needed for NDE I can probably scrape that much together.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Your list is missing Test of Endurance, which matches up positively with Felidar Sovereign and Celestial Convergence.
I'm going to chime in with the others and suggest focusing your alt win cards a bit more. Trying to jam everything just isn't going to work out. I recently built Treva life gain, and I'm running Approach of the Second Sun, Felidar Sovereign, Test of Endurance, and Laboratory Maniac (Horizon Chimera + Drogskol Reaver is infinite card draw), and many of my wins with the deck have been with one of those. The games I win some other way are almost exclusively on the back of Archangel of Thune (though sometimes it's a win by pumping up Inkmoth Nexus).
Some things that work for my Approach of the Second Sun:
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I love those suggestions for Approach, will look at adding them in.
The whole point of the deck is to run all of the wincons. I'm well aware that this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the deck. But in our jankfest matches you get major style points for running "all" of something and very little for running a streamlined efficient version. For example, my friend's deck is an Axe tribal deck, where every card except for lands has an axe in its art. Theres no style points in "most" of the cards having axes, but heaps if they all do. In the same vein the deck loses it's personality if it is "some" or "most" of the wincons, the whole point is to run them all, at least in the first draft.
If I was going to focus the deck, it would be an all in Hedron Archive deck because I consider that the jankiest of the wincons.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Your commander should be ramos, dragon engine
Easy mana for thenexsoensive win cons and you can throw in door to nothingness to elimitnate someone just like that.
And nobody pointed this trick yet have you heard of fractured identity from commander 2017
"Exile target permanent the controllers opponents gains a copy of the permanent."
And let me leave this here phage the untouchable if this is your and you shoot it with fractured identity congratulations you just instaniously won the game the
Phage said "when this enters the battle if it was not cast from your hand you loose the game" so since your opponents gain a copy of it it triggers the you loose the game etc effect for every single opponent and I don't think you have to worry about ramming into a platinum angel too much. Oh and you can do the exact same thing with Demonic Pact
Oh and here's what I can suggest for each win con
Near-Death Experience
Hex Parasite (this also helps with Celestial Convergence at 0 the game doesn't end yet it only triggers the final tally when upkeep happens.)
Mechanized Production, Revel in Riches, Hellkite Tyrant
For revel in riches did you remember every single card that does wrath of god/damnation effects is a possibility?
Biovisionary
Any creature that has a clone etc ability
Mirage Mirror (when you only need one more)
Felidar Sovereign, Celestial Convergence]
I want to tell you this but there is a third alt win condition involving life it's called
Test of Endurance
First up anything with extort
Wall of Reverence (Serra Avatar or any other big fatty and your golden)
Mayael's Aria
vampire hexmage/hex parasite/Thespian's Stage/Mirage Mirror + dark depths (come on you know dang well this is the best one for this win con since good old marit late is a 20/20 already at the required zone for win condition.)
Anything that buffs creatures or gives +1/+1 counters
Barren Glory
Well first Oblivion Ring esc ability it first
Epic Struggle
All token doublers
Also the populate cards if you can
Darksteel Reactor, Helix Pinnacle, Azor's Elecutors
Anything with proliferate
And anything that doubles the counters
Double mana givers and untappers for the helix
Growing Rites of Itlimoc (hey your using epic struggle this is a budget Gaea's Cradle)
You didn't do laboratory maniac so I will
Laboratory Maniac
Then Just activate a draw when your library is empty then bingo
(Oh that fractured identity trick works with leveler too it mills every single opponent.)
Tree of Perdition/Triskadekaphobia
Self explanatory
Approach of the second sun
Easy just any plan old tutors that can get this up after cast number one.
Here's one last thing
When any of these win condition can give you the win
Cast one of these
The upkeep will trigger the alt win con for the win before the you loose the game part triggers have platnum angel to be safe
Or alternately if you got the vampire tribal deck from commander 2017
teferi's protection
You get protection from everything
Your life total cannot be change
And most importantly it phases out all permanents you control
What happens is it protects your win con all the way to the next upkeep they phase in on untap phase which is before the upkeep phase the upkeep trigger activates it
And just to clarify tokens/counters do not get removed permanently from this.
If you cast this it's impossible for the opponents to stop the win con that you got ready to go.
So there you go alt win con staples.
Also, you don't need to wish for extra Biovisionaries. Just use clones (Progenitor Mimic especially) or Rite of Replication.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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If you use Trait Doctoring or a similar card to change Eldrazi to Human or Wizard you can immediately cast 4 (or more) Biovisinary's from outside the game.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
If allowed
I would do 250 endless one to be safe
Re; research // development I don't see a need to clear it with a playgroup, but even if I did I know they'd be fine with it.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Phyrexia Processor can be an enabler for NDE and, with Trostani out, the various life gain ones too.
Mycoloth is great for Stuggle and with Ivy Lane Denizen can quickly satisfy Aria as well.
Oh and you'll definitely want possibly my favorite enchantment period: Paradox Haze.
Bah, if you really want Hedron Alignment to work in EDH, you just need to bring in some uncards rather than wishboards....
Play Hedron Alignment
Copy it with Copy Enchantment (your in play copy)
Use something like Return to Dust to exile the original (your exiled copy)
Get a _____ into your graveyard, activate it's ability naming Hedron Alignment (your graveyard copy)
Cast Booster Tutor, crack an OGW pack, get lucky and open a Hedron Alignment (your in hand copy)
Win
Regardless of technique, that win-con/combo is very mana-hungry, so besides ensuring ramp, it wouldn't hurt to try playing As Foretold, especially when a lot of your other wincons are counter-dependent (so the counter-matters cards would also help As Foretold).
I'll be blunt and admit I'm already thinking that the deck is a trainwreck of sorts, especially when my pillowfort runs Felidar Sovereign and Azor's Elocutors (no Test of Endurance because it's almost a do-nothing besides help Sphere of Safety otherwise compared to the others) along with Approach and the chances are I probably have a better chance winning with the planeswalkers in the deck which were intended to be a secondary "pillowfort" of sorts for my life total rather than wincons. Either that, or everyone else chose to beat each other up instead that my Commander could potentially finish the job because everyone forgets she has 6 power.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
So yeah, you really do need to clear it with your group.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I love Phyrexian Processcor and Mycolith is a beast. I'm not sure how useful paradox haze would be here?
I love Plunge as a useful card outside of the combo
Sorry I thought I'd replied to this.
This post is amazing, with a ton of fantastic stuggestions.
For starters, I love the idea of including loss conditions in the deck too. The Phage / Fractured Identity combination, as well as possibly some shenanigans with Demonic Pact (my favourite black card and the cornerstone of my only 'serious' modern deck) make it too good to pass that up.
Re; Ramos as the general - agreed, theres no effective synergistic 5c general for the wincons themselves but Ramos does give you a solid threat that can soak removal and potential ramp, and use as a door enabler is fantastic.
Regarding suggestions for cards, I'm mostly looking for suggestions that either support several strategies to a lesser extent rather than insta-combo with one strategy, or cards that are useful in their own right *and* support a wincon.
[b]Near-Death Experience;[/b]
Repay in kind - too nonbo with my lifegain wincons
Soulgorger - probably too bad outside of the combo. I am wondering if there could be some play with sac outlets and cards like Rhox Faithmender to synergise with his on-death lifegain
Ad Nauseam - a great suggestion as it can provide some card advantage
Hatred - is to be considered. The possibility of a kill out of nowhere by swinging with some value dork is too good to pass up.
Necropotence - has already been suggested, but it is probably the best enabler I've seen.
Minion of the Wastes - I'm unsure about this. He's risky for enabling the combo due to being sorcery speed, but he can also be a flexible threat coming in as a 39/39 or midway as a 20/20 etc.
Poltergeist - is a solid enabler for NDE but a useless card otherwise, so I'm less inclined to run it.
Second Chance - I really don't know what to think about this one. I think if we're at 5 life in the upkeep, we've probably found a way to drop to exactly 1 or are in a situation where this card isn't that great. It looks mostly like an expensive draw step to try and topdeck a win? Less inclined to this one unless someone can convince me otherwise.
Hex Parasite - It took me this long to realize this guy has a phyrexian cost for his ability. Instead of an upgrade to Vampire Hexmage this critter is a full on combo enabler that can eat planeswalkers and the likes. Definitely coming into the deck.
[b]Mechanized Production / Revel / Hellkite[/b]
Wraths - Yes I did remember that! But rather than focus on wraths I'm more inclined to enable this card using repeated sacrifice engines (ideally non-infinite)
Curse of Opulence - A maybe card. I love curses and I love this curse and I want to like it, but is it good enough?
Spell Swindle - Iffy due to the high cost but I think this one is likely to be included due to the general usefulness of a counterspell
Myr Battlesphere - I want to say no because I abuse this thing in several decks already, but it does tick a lot of boxes and is enabled easily by the clones that will be run for biovisionary.
Sharding Sphinx - Would be dependent on the end accessibility of artifact creatures. This guy and myr battlesphere are strong together, but is there enough synergy elsewhere?
Annointed Procession etc - Doubling season is in, not sure if other similar effects are necessary.
Mycosynth Lattice - I don't run this card on principle, but yeah it would work damn well.
[b]Biovisionary[/b]
Clones - Several different clones are on the list already because they work so well with so many aspects of the deck
Kiki-Jiki - I'm a long term advocate of this card, he's definitely in as a flexible clone effect.
Saheeli's Artistry - While there are a few artifacts to copy I think its not enough to warrant the expensive clone
Infinite Reflection - This is tempting. I don't like the idea of insta-win with biovisionary, but I love the versatility that comes from reflecting Myr Battlesphere etc. Definitely in.
Followed Footsteps - This has never worked for me in the past, I think I'll pass on it.
Flameshadow Conjuring - If the final build has enough ETB effects this is a great inclusion, otherwise it's not amazing for biovisonary due to an inability to keep the visionaries over time
Splinter Twin - Largely as Flameshadow or Kiki. Depending on how effective these look in the final build it could be a third version of the effect.
[b]High Life WIns[/b]
Test of Endurance: I've left it out because it's identical in overall effect to Fellidar Sovereign, but more boring in that it doesn't do anything else.
Rhox Faithmender - I'm thinking it can do shenanigans with Soulgorger and is a solid enabler for the various lifegain synergies. In.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation - Too passive and can interfere with attempts to reduce life to 1 for NDE.
Well of Lost Dreams - This one is already in, such fantastic draw potential
Alhammarret's Archive - Fantastic effect, will try it out and see if its too expensive.
Fumigate - I love the idea of building up tokens for Epic Struggle and then flipping over to a lifegain wincon using this. In.
Beacon of Immortality - I'd prefer to avoid cards that do nothing but life.
Exsanguinate - This card gets too many groans from me and my playgroup so I'm going to leave it out.
Debt to the Deathless - As exsanguinate
Platinum Emperion - Would probably get in the way of gaining enough life more often than would be liked.
Wall of Reverence - Would work fantastically as a constant source of lifegain, synergy with the fatties from Mayael, and a good blocker. Will definitely look into this one.
[b]Mayael's Anima[/card]
-Dark Depths combo: I had initially looked at this combo and dismissed it as not a "win the game effect" but I didn't clue on that it triggers the anima. I think I'll run Thespian Stage (to support Maze End), Hex Parasite and Depths.
-Serra's Avatar: I'm on the fence with this. Its fantastic for Anima, ties into the lifegain and will likely proc the lifegain with cards like Wall of Reverence. But its also very expensive and white heavy. Will definitely keep it in mind.
-Mossbridge Troll: I do like this one, will keep it in mind as like Serra it's hard to decide which pricey fatties can make the cut.
-Other suggestions: Too much a case of no effect fatties for me.
[b]Barren Glory[/b]
I think I'll limit this one to O-ring and Apocalypse. I don't want to run land D as my group hates it, so the cycling part of decree isn't useful. Kaervik's Spite is just sitting in my trade folder begging to be used but it's too niche outside of a dedicated barren deck - I think I'd rather just rely on casting my entire hand.
Epic Struggle
Mycoloth, Avenger - This is a great suggestion as it also fulfils mayael's anima
Rampaging - THis one will be down to how many large fatties end up in the deck. If I run a lot I'll be inclined to run the green draw that can benefit from the beasts.
Aura Mutation - Removal and support for a wincon makes this my type of card
Others - Storm Herd is a maybe (10 mana wtf) but not keen on the others
[b]Darksteel etc[/b]
Vorel, Gilder - a superstar for all of these, and also for the +1 avenues for hitting Mayael.
Deepglow Skate - a maybe due to the one off effect
Winding Constrictor - consistent bonus for all counter based effects is good by me.
Mana storage / increase - Will consider this approach. It definitely enables some of the stupid expensive options for the other wincons such as Storm Herd
[b]Lab Maniac[/b]
This card alongside Mortal Combat weren't mentioned because I want to rely on heavy duty draw and looting as opposed to dedicated self-mill to enable these.
[b]Tree/Trisk[/b]
I love these lose the game triggers, I will just slam this in for S&G and see how we go
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Honestly it would surprise you how helpful an extra upkeep can be.
Ooh and I just remembered Assemble the Legion for Struggle(and maybe the life gain ones with Trostani, this one card makes me wish I could run her as Naya) and it is a reasonable win con on it's own if left alone to long. Could definitely see not taking this one though.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Here's some safety net card Exquisite Archangel, Lich's Mirror
Oh and you liked alternate lose conditions to force on your opponent
Well here's all of them
The pact cycle
For the extra turn ones only use them when you got a win con ready for the next upkeep or have platinum angel out.
For most of these enchantments you have to have platinum angel out and you need ways to give cards to opponents like donate/harmless offering also that fractured identity trick I told you
I think the ones I mentioned is all you need.
I got one more trick for epic struggle
Sprouting Phytohydra + Pyrohemia/Pestilence just get a whole army of these things in no time with this combo for the epic struggle trigger
Reveal in riches (giving it its own separate section
When you have a board sweep you can use this stuff to give opponent's creatures
tempting wurm let me explain its a way of getting opponents to say "it's a trap" after you play the wurm and whatever they play out then play revel in riches then just Blasphemous Act the board that's a lot of treasure tokens
And the "hunted" cycle
life gain alt wins
Near-Death experience
epic struggle
Essence Warden or/and Soul Warden to synergize the life gain win cons
Mayael's Aria
Ivy Lane Denizen like gutterstorm said this syngizes with mycoloth
Managorger Hydra or/and tauran mauler
Actually any hydra is good for this one Primordial Hydra is by far the best one for this alt win second place goes to Genesis Hydra for cheating out a permanent Heroes' Bane for third
The dinosaurs bring a lot of stuff to the table too
Azor's Elocutors
All "Ghostly prison" esc cards
Crumbling Sanctuary + any "skip your draw step" card my favorite is Omen Machine and of coarse once again for the third time a suggestion of necropotence
Maze's end
Never mentioned this one but now I found stuff I'm giving explanations for each
Amulet of Vigor "enter tapped" Get out now!!!
Tempt with Discovery trust me it's almost impossible for them to resist this offer despite seeing a gate or the maze's end
Hour of Promise get any two gates or the ending to the field
Ramunap Excavator/crucible of worlds or/and Splendid Reclamation safety net in case they get rid of the them to the grave also I heard there are tutors to get lands to the graveyard
Crop Rotation switch out one of you basics for a gate
Gatecreeper Vine gate tutor ladies and genltemen
Life from the Loam yet another return from grave safety
Realms Uncharted see there is a tutor lands to your graveyard stuff
Rites of Flourishing actually any other card that does the same thing "play a additional land" cards permanent or spell
Terra Eternal make sure nothing happens to your gates from destroy land sweeps plus it group hug so they will most likely leave it alone
Manabond how many gates are in your hand put them all on in just one turn
And now best for last Scapeshift doesn't get any better than this if you have 11 lands switch them all out for the gates and maze's end with this if your brave enough to take a huge bite out of your wallet. Hopefully will get a reprint soon.
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