Hi! Recently, while looking for a new Edh deck idea, I came across a morph/manifest deck. Nothing too fancy but when I tried to make my own version of a morph/manifest deck, it didn't quite work as well as expected. But what seemed really fun about that deck was the mind games you could have with your opponent, a manifested creature could be anything between a Storm Crow and a Phage the Untouchable. So my question is : Is there any other mechanics, card or commander that are great for mind games and that you could build a deck around?
Cheers
EDIT : To further specify what I'm looking for, anything that implies bluffing, hidden information, baiting, that kind of stuff.
Any degree of Fog effects. Once you/your deck becomes known for having them(at all), people think twice about attacking you if you have G open.
Similarly, any amount of variants of Reflect Damage type effects.
Generally speaking, much like morphs, just playing instants/flash stuff. Not necessarily counterspells or even playing blue, but just having mana open and grinning at people does the trick often enough.
(On a related note, my friend the Sliver Queen player is never living down the moment he comboed to infinity... and then died to Batwing Brume.)
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I'm not sure it's exactly what you're looking for but DirkGently's Phelddagrif list is entirely focused on not being an obvious threat. It's not grouphug exactly, but the gameplan is to slowly manipulate the game to your favor with the few grouphug cards as well as things like giving out Hippos for chump blockers. I haven't played it myself but I love the philosophy behind it.
I'll take a look into it but someone already has a ''classic'' political deck in my playgroup, and by classic, I mean that he tries to lay low and to make allies and then win out of nowhere win something like Insurrection. I'd gladly make a political deck, but I want it to be different, to have a twist of some sort. Thanks for the suggestion though!
Counterspells, spot removal like Path to Exile, Fog effects, Deflecting Palm effects, Flash cards, combat tricks like Giant Growths, all of these lead to crazy mind games. I would also add in the potential to win at just about any time through really explosive offense, especially decks that are otherwise sleepers. I love this kind of play. Being known for carrying other subtle mind games like Deathtouch blockers, retaliatory cards like No Mercy or High Priest of Penance, or combo busters like Word of Seizing also helps. Check out my Queen Marchesa deck in my sig for more Mardu fun in this vein.
I would also add in the potential to win at just about any time through really explosive offense, especially decks that are otherwise sleepers. I love this kind of play.
Yes this is exactly what I'm looking for, pulling a win out of nowhere because everyone thought you weren't a threat or didn't know what you had in hand! Also, are there anymore Deflecting Palm effects? Because I don't know if there are enough cards to pull this off, but it sure would be fun to have a deck where every damage bounces off of you!
I would also add in the potential to win at just about any time through really explosive offense, especially decks that are otherwise sleepers. I love this kind of play.
Yes this is exactly what I'm looking for, pulling a win out of nowhere because everyone thought you weren't a threat or didn't know what you had in hand! Also, are there anymore Deflecting Palm effects? Because I don't know if there are enough cards to pull this off, but it sure would be fun to have a deck where every damage bounces off of you!
Reflect Damage is better in some cases than Deflecting Palm because of the source of the damage. If someone attacks with a lifelink creature, you'll probably want Deflecting Palm. But if someone attacks with Blightsteel Colossus Palm is only going to do 11 regular damage to them, whereas Reflect Damage will end them.
Effects that really mess around with the typical ways the game works. Whether chaos, stax, or prison, the idea is usually to use them in a deck that is hurt less by them than others are, thereby creating an advantage. Some of them can make gameplay quite complicated and messy, which occupies extra overhead in your opponents' minds and hopefully put them on the defensive.
There are also plenty of effects that will have your opponents making tougher decisions because the consequences of certain common game actions are now higher. I usually prefer bottlenecks and punishment effects over locks. The difference between locks and bottlenecks (at least in the way I use the terms) is usually a matter the degree to which they hinder what your opponents can do. Winter Orb is more towards the lock end, while Tangle Wire is more towards the bottleneck end. Same with Peacekeeper vs Dueling Grounds. Punishment doesn't limit actions, but makes the cost of the actions steeper: Spellshock, Price of Glory, Oppression, Mana Web, etc.
Messing with your opponent's hand (Teferi's Puzzle Box, wheels, etc.) can keep them off balance if they're not prepared to play their deck more spontaneously. In this vein I'm glad Head Games was already mentioned.
I also like rattlesnakes that psychologically deter certain actions (usually actions aimed at you) without actually having a constant effect on the game state unless you activate it. Oblivion Stone, or an untapped Nevinyrral's Disk can keep players from committing more permanents to the battlefield. Soul Snare is the rattlesnake version of something like Condemn. Maze of Ith, Strip Mine, No Mercy, Karmic Justice, leaving two Islands untapped and in clear sight of your opponents, etc.
lyonhaert, I played with Reflect Damage for a bit in Queen Marchesa. It was much more difficult to keep 5 mana open than 2, meaning that Reflect Damage was actually more of a hindrance to me than my opponents. I was almost always better off ignoring that I had Reflect Damage in my hand and concentrating on building my board, and most of the time I wished I had a different card. You may feel differently, but I find Reflect Damage to be mostly unplayable due to this. The corner case of Blightsteel Colossus doesn't make up for it being so unwieldy. I didn't run Comeuppance for similar reasons for quite some time, but the prevent all damage of Comeuppance actually makes it playable. Deflecting Palm is the sweet spot for single target damage redirection spells.
From my experience, the best way to play mind games is to have a few untapped Islands....
Sure, untapped lands are a great way to have mind games with your opponents, but what I was wondering was if there other cards or mechanics built for those, something like morph. For now, the most notable ones are flash and combat tricks and some other cards suggestions such as Head Games, but I keep getting good suggestions!
I think the general idea is that it's not about single cards or mechanics. There are various styles of mind games and some cards can be used to rearrange the game state in more than one way, depending on the timing. That's why it's hard to point you in a specific direction.
Then there's the matter of combining effects — Forking a Warp World or hitting a Confusion in the Ranks off of one is chaotic enough to make some people concede (and there are decks where griefing opponents into concession is the main win condition). Then there are more subtle means, such as using Reins of Power to fog by switching with the opponent attacking you, blow out two armies by switching with somebody else and blocking with lots of trades, using it to alpha strike, or using it to just take all the big green creatures and feed them to Disciple of Griselbrand. It's all in the timing and circumstances. The cards are multitools.
If what you're liking the sound of more is surprise tricks, I have heard of a morph tribal deck or two. You'd probably want at least Azorious (WU) colors, because Mirrorweave is a very versatile trick. Things like Crystal Shard/Umbilicus to keep replaying different morph creatures so your opponents might not be able to tell which one is Willbender, which one is Brine Elemental, and which one is Dulcet Sirens (as opposed to resetting them with Ixidron), but also Evacuation. As I think about it, I'd probably want red, too (URW). With mana rock acceleration and color fixing, it's probably not going to be as tall of an order to hold up 5 mana, because you'll probably be holding up mana most of the time for 4-mana spells, at least. Leyline of Anticipation and Vedalken Orrery would also help a lot with giving you the ability to just draw and go, then in the end step just before your turn cast some morph creatures face down for 3. But they also turn enchantments like Infinite Reflections into combat tricks.
I think the general idea is that it's not about single cards or mechanics. There are various styles of mind games and some cards can be used to rearrange the game state in more than one way, depending on the timing. That's why it's hard to point you in a specific direction.
Then there's the matter of combining effects — Forking a Warp World or hitting a Confusion in the Ranks off of one is chaotic enough to make some people concede (and there are decks where griefing opponents into concession is the main win condition). Then there are more subtle means, such as using Reins of Power to fog by switching with the opponent attacking you, blow out two armies by switching with somebody else and blocking with lots of trades, using it to alpha strike, or using it to just take all the big green creatures and feed them to Disciple of Griselbrand. It's all in the timing and circumstances. The cards are multitools.
If what you're liking the sound of more is surprise tricks, I have heard of a morph tribal deck or two. You'd probably want at least Azorious (WU) colors, because Mirrorweave is a very versatile trick. Things like Crystal Shard/Umbilicus to keep replaying different morph creatures so your opponents might not be able to tell which one is Willbender, which one is Brine Elemental, and which one is Dulcet Sirens (as opposed to resetting them with Ixidron), but also Evacuation. As I think about it, I'd probably want red, too (URW). With mana rock acceleration and color fixing, it's probably not going to be as tall of an order to hold up 5 mana, because you'll probably be holding up mana most of the time for 4-mana spells, at least. Leyline of Anticipation and Vedalken Orrery would also help a lot with giving you the ability to just draw and go, then in the end step just before your turn cast some morph creatures face down for 3. But they also turn enchantments like Infinite Reflections into combat tricks.
I think you resumed well the general idea on mind games. While I'm a bit bummed by the fact that there is no other weird mechanic like morph or manifest, I still got plenty of things to look into. I think I'll go with some kind of political deck, since mind games are an important part of these. Thank you all for your help!
Check out Jusstice's Primer on Table Position. While not exactly mind games, it is all about information flow and decision making, which is the heart of mind games. Many of the really good Pillow Fort decks get into mind games, since a good Pillow Fort is not really a prison, it is an encouragement of certain decisions in play that benefit the builder of the PillowFort. Look at a lot of good political builds and write ups. The good ones are about helping others to see benefit in forwarding your agenda, and are not about overt lying or manipulation, resulting in a much stronger motivation toward behaviors that benefit you. That would be a start. You could potentially mix morph in with a political aikido pillow. RWU is a great color combination for aikido, politics, pillow fort, and morph. That would be interesting to see.
Check out Jusstice's Primer on Table Position. While not exactly mind games, it is all about information flow and decision making, which is the heart of mind games. Many of the really good Pillow Fort decks get into mind games, since a good Pillow Fort is not really a prison, it is an encouragement of certain decisions in play that benefit the builder of the PillowFort. Look at a lot of good political builds and write ups. The good ones are about helping others to see benefit in forwarding your agenda, and are not about overt lying or manipulation, resulting in a much stronger motivation toward behaviors that benefit you. That would be a start. You could potentially mix morph in with a political aikido pillow. RWU is a great color combination for aikido, politics, pillow fort, and morph. That would be interesting to see.
It's a great guide thanks! While you mention RWU and politics, I was thinking about making a Zedruu the Greathearted deck and I was just about to make a thread to ask for help with dilemma I'm having. One interesting thing I've seen is people giving morphed creature with Zedruu so I could certainly look into it!
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Cheers
EDIT : To further specify what I'm looking for, anything that implies bluffing, hidden information, baiting, that kind of stuff.
Similarly, any amount of variants of Reflect Damage type effects.
Generally speaking, much like morphs, just playing instants/flash stuff. Not necessarily counterspells or even playing blue, but just having mana open and grinning at people does the trick often enough.
(On a related note, my friend the Sliver Queen player is never living down the moment he comboed to infinity... and then died to Batwing Brume.)
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Guessing cards like Vexing Arcanix, Liar's Pendulum, Sphinx Ambassador, Conundrum Sphinx, Master of Predicaments.
Yes this is exactly what I'm looking for, pulling a win out of nowhere because everyone thought you weren't a threat or didn't know what you had in hand! Also, are there anymore Deflecting Palm effects? Because I don't know if there are enough cards to pull this off, but it sure would be fun to have a deck where every damage bounces off of you!
This also looks fun! I'd just have to look for more cards with this kind of effect and if there is a way to abuse it...
Effects that really mess around with the typical ways the game works. Whether chaos, stax, or prison, the idea is usually to use them in a deck that is hurt less by them than others are, thereby creating an advantage. Some of them can make gameplay quite complicated and messy, which occupies extra overhead in your opponents' minds and hopefully put them on the defensive.
There are also plenty of effects that will have your opponents making tougher decisions because the consequences of certain common game actions are now higher. I usually prefer bottlenecks and punishment effects over locks. The difference between locks and bottlenecks (at least in the way I use the terms) is usually a matter the degree to which they hinder what your opponents can do. Winter Orb is more towards the lock end, while Tangle Wire is more towards the bottleneck end. Same with Peacekeeper vs Dueling Grounds. Punishment doesn't limit actions, but makes the cost of the actions steeper: Spellshock, Price of Glory, Oppression, Mana Web, etc.
Messing with your opponent's hand (Teferi's Puzzle Box, wheels, etc.) can keep them off balance if they're not prepared to play their deck more spontaneously. In this vein I'm glad Head Games was already mentioned.
I also like rattlesnakes that psychologically deter certain actions (usually actions aimed at you) without actually having a constant effect on the game state unless you activate it. Oblivion Stone, or an untapped Nevinyrral's Disk can keep players from committing more permanents to the battlefield. Soul Snare is the rattlesnake version of something like Condemn. Maze of Ith, Strip Mine, No Mercy, Karmic Justice, leaving two Islands untapped and in clear sight of your opponents, etc.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Sure, untapped lands are a great way to have mind games with your opponents, but what I was wondering was if there other cards or mechanics built for those, something like morph. For now, the most notable ones are flash and combat tricks and some other cards suggestions such as Head Games, but I keep getting good suggestions!
Then there's the matter of combining effects — Forking a Warp World or hitting a Confusion in the Ranks off of one is chaotic enough to make some people concede (and there are decks where griefing opponents into concession is the main win condition). Then there are more subtle means, such as using Reins of Power to fog by switching with the opponent attacking you, blow out two armies by switching with somebody else and blocking with lots of trades, using it to alpha strike, or using it to just take all the big green creatures and feed them to Disciple of Griselbrand. It's all in the timing and circumstances. The cards are multitools.
If what you're liking the sound of more is surprise tricks, I have heard of a morph tribal deck or two. You'd probably want at least Azorious (WU) colors, because Mirrorweave is a very versatile trick. Things like Crystal Shard/Umbilicus to keep replaying different morph creatures so your opponents might not be able to tell which one is Willbender, which one is Brine Elemental, and which one is Dulcet Sirens (as opposed to resetting them with Ixidron), but also Evacuation. As I think about it, I'd probably want red, too (URW). With mana rock acceleration and color fixing, it's probably not going to be as tall of an order to hold up 5 mana, because you'll probably be holding up mana most of the time for 4-mana spells, at least. Leyline of Anticipation and Vedalken Orrery would also help a lot with giving you the ability to just draw and go, then in the end step just before your turn cast some morph creatures face down for 3. But they also turn enchantments like Infinite Reflections into combat tricks.
You might also be interested in spells that scale with whatever your opponents bring to the table like Bribery, Spelljack, Control Magic, as well as cloning and copying effects. It can be quite efficient to Fork somebody else's Exsanguinate, kicked Rite of Replication, or even just their Demonic Tutor.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I think you resumed well the general idea on mind games. While I'm a bit bummed by the fact that there is no other weird mechanic like morph or manifest, I still got plenty of things to look into. I think I'll go with some kind of political deck, since mind games are an important part of these. Thank you all for your help!
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
It's a great guide thanks! While you mention RWU and politics, I was thinking about making a Zedruu the Greathearted deck and I was just about to make a thread to ask for help with dilemma I'm having. One interesting thing I've seen is people giving morphed creature with Zedruu so I could certainly look into it!