Played 3 games the other night. I do not have a set playgroup and only see these people once a week for a few hours (about 6-20 people show up). One of the regulars (whom I try not to play with) has well built, tricked out decks. Not to dwell on him, but after our second game where he combo'd off, I stated it isn't always fun when the other three are playing fair decks [and you know it] and you pull out decks that contain combos. His counter was that every deck should have at least one combo.
On our third game, I played ZenN's Jenara, Asura of Wardecklist --- basically bant ETB value town. I was able to control the board with wipes, refill my hand, and restore my life over and over again. Once they were in topdeck mode and I had more cards than I could play, that one player was really getting impatient. Tapping his leg, sighing, and constantly looking at the top of his deck when it was not his turn (I asked him during the game why he did that...so he knew how to play his next turn). Yes, I was grinding the game out and swinging when I could, but it was me vs the other 3 and I was doing it well....yet slowly. He complained to me that I should just end the game. And again we argued discussed why combo is required. I don't want to dilute some decks and others do not need them. He does not agree.
TL;DR
How do you feel about needing to have at least one combo in every deck?
If you know you lost because your opponent has an iron grip on the table but will take a while to win, just scoop 'em up. There's no reason to complain that your opponents can't kill you fast enough - you had the ultimate tool for removing yourself from the game at your fingertips all along. Use it. And if it bothers you, maybe modify your deck so you have more outs to bad situations.
If you know you lost because your opponent has an iron grip on the table but will take a while to win, just scoop 'em up. There's no reason to complain that your opponents can't kill you fast enough - you had the ultimate tool for removing yourself from the game at your fingertips all along. Use it. And if it bothers you, maybe modify your deck so you have more outs to bad situations.
Pretty much this... I think.
EDH is a bit of a different beast and I still tend to perceive the triumvirate of Magic as Rock/Paper/Scissors instead of the current model (I'm trying). But EDH is special since the goal isn't to win but to have fun. Like four people playing Warlords on the 2600 and trying to explain to the NES dude there is no princess.
Besides the guy just bailing, there's an obvious misunderstanding between what is happening and what is expected. Not much anyone can do other than stop playing with him.
I disagree, I don't think all decks need at least one combo.
I play with a regular playgroup, and I generally want my decks to be able to close out games at some point. I do not always do this with combos, but sometimes just throwing in a few fatty creatures. I try to be courteous and have finishers in decks, but I definitely disagree with any sentiment that "all decks should have at least 1 combo".
I also disagree with this other player. My impression from what you say about his decks and the third game is that he's a bit Spikey and places value on the outcome of the game more than the journey to the outcome.
I like my decks to all have good synergy and preferably have one alternate win condition in addition to the main one. But I don't think every deck should have a combo in it by default (and by combo I assume he means infinite combo).
So that's 10 decks without combo out of 31 in my stable. Most of the ones without any combo are also able to close out a game quickly, usually with 1-3 hits from my commander, often with evasion of some kind.
As I said in another thread recently, I would prefer to lose to a combo and shuffle up for another game than sit through a three-hour slugfest and only have time for a single game.
Not to turn the tables, but is there a reason that the Jenara deck does NOT have a combo?
I’m asking because the decklist you posted has Eternal Witness and Time Warp/Temporal Manipulation in it, then Planeswalker Venser and Eldrazi Displacer in for repeated bounce. So, you would have had to cut E-wit or others of that list in order to fit the deck into the combo-less category.
That brings me to a broader point though, is that with Magic as it is there are more instances where you have to do an assessment whether your deck took out the combos rather than building to enable that as a win condition. At least when you have a multi-color deck with Blue in it, just running good cards means that you’d have to give it a twice over to make sure. Imo, when you’ve started watering down your deck to avoid combo’s is when people have gotten over-sensitive.
The other day, I am playing a Chainer-based Mairsil deck. I’ve got Gray Merchant of Asphodel on a once per turn basis, and I am sitting with Illusionist’s Gambit in hand and Archaeomancer in the bin. I have enough mana at the EOT to my right that I can either bring back Archaeomancer to the field with Chainer or Flashback an Intuition with Dralnu. I know that I have Dualcaster Mage in my deck.
Correct play? I can end the game tutoring for Dualcaster, putting Stratagem on the stack during my turn, then bringing it back with Chainer. Or, I can go the non-infinite route with 12 mana and drain the table 3x with Gary during the orbit, killing the player to my left immediately and the other I’m sure to follow. I spare the table, since once player had been eliminated and had been sitting out for about half an hour.
So, the player to my left is playing Prossh, Skyraider of Kher and has a Blood Artist out, and when I win he announces plans to have burnt me out with 8 tokens (I was at less life than that). A little bit of frustration carries over to the next game. Surprising here is to have that kind of distaste when 1) that player would’ve been eliminated with either route, 2) the reason I had multiple Gary activations going off and was still at low life is because the table had been taking Purporous and Blood Artist triggers from that player all game. People have just as much (actually more) flexibility to zap Dualcaster/Gary as they to Purph. It used to be the case in the EDH global meta that attacking with Titans and such is how you were expected to win, but clearly not anymore.
TL:DR
Everything is a combo. People just don’t like losing.
Yes, I was grinding the game out and swinging when I could, but it was me vs the other 3 and I was doing it well....yet slowly.
TL;DR
How do you feel about needing to have at least one combo in every deck?
How slow are your attacks? Are you constantly attacking every turn or waiting it out in case they have things to get rid of your attackers?
It kind of reminds me of my Karador deck many years back, against a table of 3 other plays with only 12 mana available, all I could do to control the board was to recur Mindslicer with Phyrexian Altar + Nim Deathmantle during the draw step of other players and casting that ETB "each player sacrifices a creature" creature from my graveyard during my turn (can't remember the name). The game slowed to a crawl I literally could only attack with Karador + Mindslicer until opponents die from the 7 hits (21 turns total for 3 opponents until I draw some other creature that is low in casting cost) for the combined attack. Come to think about it, it wasn't really fun to both the opponents or me at all.
Another separate instance after I stopped playing Karador (due to how grindy my decklist was) was playing in another playgroup where there was a player who likes grinding out games. He was playing a Angus Mackenzie pillowfort control deck which police the entire board. He would "fogged" every single attack, even attacks that don't swing at him due to having a Seedborn Muse with him. Countered/Exiled boardwipes that threaten his fort and refuse to close out the game even when the rest of us are in top deck mode.
Asked him why the reply was "I want to enjoy playing out a long game with all my stuff out". We just had a house rule of not scooping due to some players abusing it (tactical scoop). That was the last time I've ever played with him, the game lasted 3 hours with the latter half having us bored and unable to do anything due to having Erayo, Soratami Ascendant flipped (still legal at that time) + Rule of Law in play on his side.
--------------------------------------------
To answer your question, I don't think every deck needs a combo, but I do think every deck needs some way to close out the game fast. It just happens that a combo fulfills that criteria. As much as we don't like others to grind us out in long games, don't do the same back to others.
Long answer: It all depends. As others have pointed out, you do need a way to close out a game. Combo is an easy way to fulfill that specific criteria. However, the other details vary widely. Some decks are based totally to abuse their combo(s) while others simply have them as backup plans.
Depending on meta, deck building and/or personal preference will dictate to what degree combo is used, if at all. Let's face it: it is not always simple to ground out a multiplayer game nor does every plan survive contact, thus, giving a need for multiple plans.
Another separate instance after I stopped playing Karador (due to how grindy my decklist was) was playing in another playgroup where there was a player who likes grinding out games. He was playing a Angus Mackenzie pillowfort control deck which police the entire board. He would "fogged" every single attack, even attacks that don't swing at him due to having a Seedborn Muse with him. Countered/Exiled boardwipes that threaten his fort and refuse to close out the game even when the rest of us are in top deck mode.
Asked him why the reply was "I want to enjoy playing out a long game with all my stuff out". We just had a house rule of not scooping due to some players abusing it (tactical scoop). That was the last time I've ever played with him, the game lasted 3 hours with the latter half having us bored and unable to do anything due to having Erayo, Soratami Ascendant flipped (still legal at that time) + Rule of Law in play on his side.
That sounds like a terrible experience. It's one thing for the struggle to be closely matched and shift between players until somebody comes out on top. That's the kind of "grind" I like, even if the game is 2-3 hours — there's always progression to the end. But to lock everybody else down and then tread water... I've been there, and its what gave me a distaste for Grave Pact and its ilk.
Like the general consensus says, you don't HAVE to have a combo, but having some way of efficiently wrapping the game up is essential if you sat down to play a game for fun and not to bizarrely torment your companions. Splashy threats, reliable beaters, etc. etc. Combo is just the fastest, most effective at clearing a full pod at a time type of finisher, so a lot of people favor it as ending games more reliably than other options.
Personally I believe every deck should have a non-combat way of winning. Board stalls happen. Sometimes a game just needs to end. Pillow fort decks are a thing. It doesn't necessarily have to be an infinite combo but sometimes you're just not going to be able to smash dudes until someone dies.
long answer: I mean it helps, It is more like every deck needs a way to win the late late late game. For many people that is sloting in a a combo. For example I slot in Reveillark + karmic guide into my deveri brid tribal. For other people it is just being a control deck with powerful draw spells (sphinx's revelation) or just having insane recursion, Phyrexian Reclamation or Praetor's Counsel.
Edit: my decks are 50-50 for infinite combos, all which are 3 pieces or more.
No. If I played in such a meta where everyone felt that way, I would just leave. I do believe in not messing around when you have a win condition available (ie have a finisher to end it), but I do very much enjoy grinding out wins in complicated, somewhat competitive games.
I'm personally coming around on this a little bit. I used to feel that infinite combo's had no place in a fun EDH game period.
But lately I feel that it's ok to add one or two as a nuclear option to break through stalemates. Just something that you assemble eventually if the game goes long enough, which is often too long for some players involved and I feel it's ok at that point because people having fun is the most important.
I still feel decks that actively tutor for a combo as their primary way to win (Kill me before turn 6 or you can try again next game) are unfun, period.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
As I said in another thread recently, I would prefer to lose to a combo and shuffle up for another game than sit through a three-hour slugfest and only have time for a single game.
This is pretty much how I feel. I don't mind combo or value-town decks that close the game within 30-45 minutes. I don't want to sit in a commander game with 4 people for two hours waiting for one person to suicide their board into someone else's. I like to play my commander deck as much as possible. Iget that people like to turn creatures sideways, but long drawn out games really kill the vibe.
My group likes to durdle by having large creature battles with large creatures. We don't do a lot of hard locks or infinite combos. But we do play with a lot of disruption and non-infinite combos, or else storm through with huge voltrons like Varolz, Zurgo, and Lord of Tresserhorn. So we're kind of a backwater here, but it's how we like to play. All that being said, we don't like grinding things to a halt, either. The "guy" you know from the OP has a point (as others have said) that you need a way to close it out quickly, especially if you are at an LGS where you won't know everyone. I disagree that a combo has to be infinite, but it can be a lot easier just to make it infinite.
I do think that player is toxic, however. What a jerk.
I disagree, of course. Grinding it out is fine, and I enjoy it.
However, I don't like games that are slowed to a halt and take forever to wrap up. I had an opponent who had Living Plane + Doomwake Giant in an enchantress deck.
He destroyed everyone else's lands... but everyone had creatures and could block efficiently... so the game just stalled. Nobody could deal with his lock, but he also couldn't kill anyone. We just played it out, hoping he would run out of enchantments so somebody could destroy Living Plane or Doomwake Giant.
My grindy decks all have a combo or a way to wrap up the game quickly. You don't need to win immediately, but the writing should be on the wall.
Now, once everyone is topdecking, I feel like your general should be a fast clock.
He destroyed everyone else's lands... but everyone had creatures and could block efficiently... so the game just stalled.
But the Doomwake Giant is shrinking or killing those, too. Was he just really bad at enchantress? My enchantress decks are frequently drawing more than enough cards to kill all but the biggest blockers with Doomwake (and one of my enchantress decks is WB Daxos, so I don't even need enchantment cards, I just need 3 mana for a Constellation trigger)
He destroyed everyone else's lands... but everyone had creatures and could block efficiently... so the game just stalled.
But the Doomwake Giant is shrinking or killing those, too. Was he just really bad at enchantress? My enchantress decks are frequently drawing more than enough cards to kill all but the biggest blockers with Doomwake (and one of my enchantress decks is WB Daxos, so I don't even need enchantment cards, I just need 3 mana for a Constellation trigger)
He had kinda stalled but had topdecked the Living Plane. It was a play that just prolonged the game as we had to wait for him to either slip up or get enough board to win the game. Took a good 15 minutes after losing our lands.
If every deck needs a combo, I sure missed that memo.
32 decks, and not one of them have an intentional infinite combo in them. Buttloads of synergistic/thematic building that leads to snowballs, but I never build with the intention of having a combo in a deck.
To be fair though, I have a tendency of going all out and either win or crash/burn gloriously. But in general, I enjoy the attrition wars, the back-and-forth. I don't usually mind if a game lasts two hours if it's a game worth remembering.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
My deck is a control deck at heart, but people [when they are losing against me] feel like they're playing against some unfair combo deck because I'm sac'cing Child each turn or they feel like Maze's End is a cheap win or they feel like Marit Lage is somehow overpowered despite me losing the tempo of two land drops and my draw step to dredge Life from the Loam.
Tuned decks do not need to play combos to win games or close out games quickly. However, decks do need to have non-combat oriented ways to threaten players. My Ezuri Elves deck can only win via combat damage, but I can still do many things outside of combat to stop/hurt opponents (for example: Walking Ballista and Gilt-Leaf Archdruid).
But we do play with a lot of disruption and non-infinite combos,
Can you post an example of non-infinite combo?
Token doublers + Mirror Entity + Gaea's Cradle = 30 x 29/29 creatures for me in a recent game. Xenagos the Reveler also fills as a budget Cradle. That might be called absurd synergy versus a combo I suppose, but no less a combination of cards than an infinite one. Other plays = big blast spells with Gaea's Cradle/Xenagos. I don't have Exsanguinate in there, but probably should. If the table lets me get 35 tokens in play, they absolutely deserve to die.
Same for a 60 card deck where I have damage returners/echoers like Mogg Maniac and Blood Artist + Massacre Wurm + Blasphemous Act. Or, even better, cast Twighlight's Call to bring everything back and then drop B.Act. Definitely a combo that causes bodies to fly. Also not infinite.
On topic, no, not every deck needs combos, but every deck needs a way to close out games quickly when you're in a dominant position. I think the problem OP's opponent had is similar to the problem I have with slow play: don't waste my time. I don't think scooping when a player is clearly ahead is a good solution, either. A certain story about Mike Long playing ProsBloom and having to bluff that he had a second Drain Life in order to win comes to mind. Maybe it's because I also have a tendency to play grindy decks but I find it difficult to scoop unless I'm completely dead in the water.
I very much disagree that every deck needs a combo. (I'm assuming that the person means infinite combo that will win the game immediately.)
However, I think it IS important for grindy decks that are winning to have some way to win the game quickly. My card of choice seems to be Mirror Entity because it turns a board of value dudes into lethal damage almost immediately. It doesn't need to combo with anything, it just needs mana, which you're going to have plenty of in the late game. It's basically the white fireball / craterhoof / overrun. It's also easily to get back and tutor for, so once you're in the position to finish people off, it should be fairly easy to acquire.
The reason for this: People have a limited time to play Magic. I won't go so far as to say that it's rude to durdle when you're in the winning position, but when it happens, it's just not a positive experience.
On our third game, I played ZenN's Jenara, Asura of War decklist --- basically bant ETB value town. I was able to control the board with wipes, refill my hand, and restore my life over and over again. Once they were in topdeck mode and I had more cards than I could play, that one player was really getting impatient. Tapping his leg, sighing, and constantly looking at the top of his deck when it was not his turn (I asked him during the game why he did that...so he knew how to play his next turn). Yes, I was grinding the game out and swinging when I could, but it was me vs the other 3 and I was doing it well....yet slowly. He complained to me that I should just end the game. And again we
argueddiscussed why combo is required. I don't want to dilute some decks and others do not need them. He does not agree.TL;DR
How do you feel about needing to have at least one combo in every deck?
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
If you know you lost because your opponent has an iron grip on the table but will take a while to win, just scoop 'em up. There's no reason to complain that your opponents can't kill you fast enough - you had the ultimate tool for removing yourself from the game at your fingertips all along. Use it. And if it bothers you, maybe modify your deck so you have more outs to bad situations.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Pretty much this... I think.
EDH is a bit of a different beast and I still tend to perceive the triumvirate of Magic as Rock/Paper/Scissors instead of the current model (I'm trying). But EDH is special since the goal isn't to win but to have fun. Like four people playing Warlords on the 2600 and trying to explain to the NES dude there is no princess.
Besides the guy just bailing, there's an obvious misunderstanding between what is happening and what is expected. Not much anyone can do other than stop playing with him.
I play with a regular playgroup, and I generally want my decks to be able to close out games at some point. I do not always do this with combos, but sometimes just throwing in a few fatty creatures. I try to be courteous and have finishers in decks, but I definitely disagree with any sentiment that "all decks should have at least 1 combo".
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI like my decks to all have good synergy and preferably have one alternate win condition in addition to the main one. But I don't think every deck should have a combo in it by default (and by combo I assume he means infinite combo).
By the way, how long was that third game?
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Karn, Silver Golem: more combos than I intended to include
Soraya the Falconer: no infinite or instant-win combos
Thada Adel, Acquisitor: steal your combos
Toshiro Umezawa: one non-infinite combo (kills one player at a time)
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage: no infinite or instant-win combos
Ezuri, Renegade Leader: multiple incidental combos
Rasputin Dreamweaver: one infinite damage combo and two infinite mana combos (with Stroke of Genius and Blue Sun's Zenith able to turn infinite mana into a kill)
Daxos the Returned: one combo for infinite Constellation triggers (with Grim Guardian as one constellation card)
Depala, Pilot Exemplar: one infinite mana combo; with Depala I can pick up every Dwarf and Vehicle in the deck, including Mirror Entity, Fleetwheel Cruiser, and Ovalchase Dragster
Gaddock Teeg: no infinite combos, but I can lock down the board pretty hard
Wrexial, the Risen Deep: one infinite mana/infinite token combo
Melek, Izzet Paragon: storm combo
Vorel of the Hull Clade: infinite combo with The Chain Veil, finite combo to win with Darksteel Reactor in a very short amount of time
Olivia, Mobilized for War: no infinite or instant-win combos
Iname as One: two infinite mana/infinite token combos, finite combo with Iname, Death Aspect+Mortal Combat
Wort, the Raidmother: infinite combo with Reiterate, finite combo with Wheel of Fortune or similar to deck everyone out
Treva, the Renewer: multiple infinite life and/or infinite draw combos, multiple "you win the game" effects
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic: Paradox Engine, need I say more?
Thraximundar: no infinite or instant-win combos
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: multiple infinite damage combos, Food Chain
Uril, the Miststalker: no infinite or instant-win combos
Zurgo Helmsmasher: multiple infinite damage (creatures only) combos
Maelstrom Wanderer: two infinite combat combos
Ghave, Guru of Spores: too many combos to count
Narset, Enlightened Master: no infinite combos, but able to one-shot with an unblockable Narset
Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper+Thrasios, Triton Hero: Protean Hulk combos, one infinite mana combo (pump into Thrasios)
Breya, Etherium Shaper: many combos
Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa+Vial Smasher the Fierce: no infinite or instant-win combos
(no 4C nonblack deck yet)
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice: no infinite or instant-win combos
Silas Renn, Seeker Adept+Tana, the Bloodsower: Necrotic Ooze combos, infinite self-mill (with Laboratory Maniac)
Child of Alara: no infinite or instant-win combos
So that's 10 decks without combo out of 31 in my stable. Most of the ones without any combo are also able to close out a game quickly, usually with 1-3 hits from my commander, often with evasion of some kind.
As I said in another thread recently, I would prefer to lose to a combo and shuffle up for another game than sit through a three-hour slugfest and only have time for a single game.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I’m asking because the decklist you posted has Eternal Witness and Time Warp/Temporal Manipulation in it, then Planeswalker Venser and Eldrazi Displacer in for repeated bounce. So, you would have had to cut E-wit or others of that list in order to fit the deck into the combo-less category.
That brings me to a broader point though, is that with Magic as it is there are more instances where you have to do an assessment whether your deck took out the combos rather than building to enable that as a win condition. At least when you have a multi-color deck with Blue in it, just running good cards means that you’d have to give it a twice over to make sure. Imo, when you’ve started watering down your deck to avoid combo’s is when people have gotten over-sensitive.
The other day, I am playing a Chainer-based Mairsil deck. I’ve got Gray Merchant of Asphodel on a once per turn basis, and I am sitting with Illusionist’s Gambit in hand and Archaeomancer in the bin. I have enough mana at the EOT to my right that I can either bring back Archaeomancer to the field with Chainer or Flashback an Intuition with Dralnu. I know that I have Dualcaster Mage in my deck.
Correct play? I can end the game tutoring for Dualcaster, putting Stratagem on the stack during my turn, then bringing it back with Chainer. Or, I can go the non-infinite route with 12 mana and drain the table 3x with Gary during the orbit, killing the player to my left immediately and the other I’m sure to follow. I spare the table, since once player had been eliminated and had been sitting out for about half an hour.
So, the player to my left is playing Prossh, Skyraider of Kher and has a Blood Artist out, and when I win he announces plans to have burnt me out with 8 tokens (I was at less life than that). A little bit of frustration carries over to the next game. Surprising here is to have that kind of distaste when 1) that player would’ve been eliminated with either route, 2) the reason I had multiple Gary activations going off and was still at low life is because the table had been taking Purporous and Blood Artist triggers from that player all game. People have just as much (actually more) flexibility to zap Dualcaster/Gary as they to Purph. It used to be the case in the EDH global meta that attacking with Titans and such is how you were expected to win, but clearly not anymore.
TL:DR
Everything is a combo. People just don’t like losing.
How slow are your attacks? Are you constantly attacking every turn or waiting it out in case they have things to get rid of your attackers?
It kind of reminds me of my Karador deck many years back, against a table of 3 other plays with only 12 mana available, all I could do to control the board was to recur Mindslicer with Phyrexian Altar + Nim Deathmantle during the draw step of other players and casting that ETB "each player sacrifices a creature" creature from my graveyard during my turn (can't remember the name). The game slowed to a crawl I literally could only attack with Karador + Mindslicer until opponents die from the 7 hits (21 turns total for 3 opponents until I draw some other creature that is low in casting cost) for the combined attack. Come to think about it, it wasn't really fun to both the opponents or me at all.
Another separate instance after I stopped playing Karador (due to how grindy my decklist was) was playing in another playgroup where there was a player who likes grinding out games. He was playing a Angus Mackenzie pillowfort control deck which police the entire board. He would "fogged" every single attack, even attacks that don't swing at him due to having a Seedborn Muse with him. Countered/Exiled boardwipes that threaten his fort and refuse to close out the game even when the rest of us are in top deck mode.
Asked him why the reply was "I want to enjoy playing out a long game with all my stuff out". We just had a house rule of not scooping due to some players abusing it (tactical scoop). That was the last time I've ever played with him, the game lasted 3 hours with the latter half having us bored and unable to do anything due to having Erayo, Soratami Ascendant flipped (still legal at that time) + Rule of Law in play on his side.
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To answer your question, I don't think every deck needs a combo, but I do think every deck needs some way to close out the game fast. It just happens that a combo fulfills that criteria. As much as we don't like others to grind us out in long games, don't do the same back to others.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Short answer: no.
Long answer: It all depends. As others have pointed out, you do need a way to close out a game. Combo is an easy way to fulfill that specific criteria. However, the other details vary widely. Some decks are based totally to abuse their combo(s) while others simply have them as backup plans.
Depending on meta, deck building and/or personal preference will dictate to what degree combo is used, if at all. Let's face it: it is not always simple to ground out a multiplayer game nor does every plan survive contact, thus, giving a need for multiple plans.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
long answer: I mean it helps, It is more like every deck needs a way to win the late late late game. For many people that is sloting in a a combo. For example I slot in Reveillark + karmic guide into my deveri brid tribal. For other people it is just being a control deck with powerful draw spells (sphinx's revelation) or just having insane recursion, Phyrexian Reclamation or Praetor's Counsel.
Edit: my decks are 50-50 for infinite combos, all which are 3 pieces or more.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
But lately I feel that it's ok to add one or two as a nuclear option to break through stalemates. Just something that you assemble eventually if the game goes long enough, which is often too long for some players involved and I feel it's ok at that point because people having fun is the most important.
I still feel decks that actively tutor for a combo as their primary way to win (Kill me before turn 6 or you can try again next game) are unfun, period.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
This is pretty much how I feel. I don't mind combo or value-town decks that close the game within 30-45 minutes. I don't want to sit in a commander game with 4 people for two hours waiting for one person to suicide their board into someone else's. I like to play my commander deck as much as possible. Iget that people like to turn creatures sideways, but long drawn out games really kill the vibe.
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W
I do think that player is toxic, however. What a jerk.
However, I don't like games that are slowed to a halt and take forever to wrap up. I had an opponent who had Living Plane + Doomwake Giant in an enchantress deck.
He destroyed everyone else's lands... but everyone had creatures and could block efficiently... so the game just stalled. Nobody could deal with his lock, but he also couldn't kill anyone. We just played it out, hoping he would run out of enchantments so somebody could destroy Living Plane or Doomwake Giant.
My grindy decks all have a combo or a way to wrap up the game quickly. You don't need to win immediately, but the writing should be on the wall.
Now, once everyone is topdecking, I feel like your general should be a fast clock.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
He had kinda stalled but had topdecked the Living Plane. It was a play that just prolonged the game as we had to wait for him to either slip up or get enough board to win the game. Took a good 15 minutes after losing our lands.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
32 decks, and not one of them have an intentional infinite combo in them. Buttloads of synergistic/thematic building that leads to snowballs, but I never build with the intention of having a combo in a deck.
To be fair though, I have a tendency of going all out and either win or crash/burn gloriously. But in general, I enjoy the attrition wars, the back-and-forth. I don't usually mind if a game lasts two hours if it's a game worth remembering.
In my Lands.dec, I play:
1.Scapeshiftand I get Maze's End + Guildgates, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle + Vesuva + Thespian Stage + Mountains, or a package of lands that will let me Dark Depths or Sacrifice my general Child of Alara.
2. Sacrifice outlets like Phyrexian Tower, High Market, and Diamond Valley along with Corpse Dance.
My deck is a control deck at heart, but people [when they are losing against me] feel like they're playing against some unfair combo deck because I'm sac'cing Child each turn or they feel like Maze's End is a cheap win or they feel like Marit Lage is somehow overpowered despite me losing the tempo of two land drops and my draw step to dredge Life from the Loam.
Tuned decks do not need to play combos to win games or close out games quickly. However, decks do need to have non-combat oriented ways to threaten players. My Ezuri Elves deck can only win via combat damage, but I can still do many things outside of combat to stop/hurt opponents (for example: Walking Ballista and Gilt-Leaf Archdruid).
Token doublers + Mirror Entity + Gaea's Cradle = 30 x 29/29 creatures for me in a recent game. Xenagos the Reveler also fills as a budget Cradle. That might be called absurd synergy versus a combo I suppose, but no less a combination of cards than an infinite one. Other plays = big blast spells with Gaea's Cradle/Xenagos. I don't have Exsanguinate in there, but probably should. If the table lets me get 35 tokens in play, they absolutely deserve to die.
Same for a 60 card deck where I have damage returners/echoers like Mogg Maniac and Blood Artist + Massacre Wurm + Blasphemous Act. Or, even better, cast Twighlight's Call to bring everything back and then drop B.Act. Definitely a combo that causes bodies to fly. Also not infinite.
On topic, no, not every deck needs combos, but every deck needs a way to close out games quickly when you're in a dominant position. I think the problem OP's opponent had is similar to the problem I have with slow play: don't waste my time. I don't think scooping when a player is clearly ahead is a good solution, either. A certain story about Mike Long playing ProsBloom and having to bluff that he had a second Drain Life in order to win comes to mind. Maybe it's because I also have a tendency to play grindy decks but I find it difficult to scoop unless I'm completely dead in the water.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
However, I think it IS important for grindy decks that are winning to have some way to win the game quickly. My card of choice seems to be Mirror Entity because it turns a board of value dudes into lethal damage almost immediately. It doesn't need to combo with anything, it just needs mana, which you're going to have plenty of in the late game. It's basically the white fireball / craterhoof / overrun. It's also easily to get back and tutor for, so once you're in the position to finish people off, it should be fairly easy to acquire.
The reason for this: People have a limited time to play Magic. I won't go so far as to say that it's rude to durdle when you're in the winning position, but when it happens, it's just not a positive experience.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill