Most commanders have an appropriate "answer" that can be included in most good-stuff decks, from removal to their ability to stopping their broken synergy.
My only issue are the commander(s) that make removal for them difficult, or that already impact the game just by existing in the command zone.
The first one is mainly about hexproof commanders, with a grump around Narset. Something like Narset, Enlightened Master does fail to a few counterspells or if their early-acceleration/rocks are blown up. But not every deck will have that sort of answer, and Narset only has to have one marginally-lucky attack to take over the game. The other common hexproof commanders (Geist of Saint Traft/Dragonlord Ojutai/Sigards, Host of Herons/Thrun, the Last Troll), are also all very difficult to deal with, but they do not just take over and win a game if allowed to attack once.
The second issue is something in the command zone that can't be interacted with. The two main issue commanders here are Oloro, Ageless Ascetic and Inalla, Archmage Ritualist. These two commanders can just win the game with one single card (Aetherflux Reservoir and Wanderwine Prophets respectively). Their color(s) enable some of the most consistent tutors and control possible for combo decks.
There would be a third group of commanders that I find generally annoying to play against, just because the decks have become so commonly seen that I find them beyond boring. It's like running in to a Proosh or Maelstrom deck, and wondering just how long it will take the player to find their food chain so the game can finish and start up another.
There are always answers for some of these common issue commanders, but the real issue is warping every game against them into "do I have the answer in time" before the game ends up being a waste of time.
Most all of the Rafiq decks I've run into have been voltron types, either enchantment or artifact. But as was said earlier, his colors lend himself to some of the best enchantments, and he can cherry-pick what artifacts he wants as well. I used to run a deck with him at the helm, but I much prefer the 'semi-jank' of what I run now as opposed to the steamroll he often personifies. Definitely agree with his inclusion.
I keep hearing about Narset, and I see the mechanic that makes her broken; I must be the luckiest man in the world to have not faced her yet thus far.
I agree with all of these. A commander deserves its bad reputation when the only way you can build it without it being oppressive is to make it intentionally janky. Prossh can be fun as the head of Kobold or Dragon Tribal, eschewing all the things that make Prossh overbearing in favor of tribal synergies and having him serve as either a very good dragon or a source of Kobolds. Derevi birds is usually rather innocuous and fun. Sharuum and Breya can play artifact goodstuff just fine. The problem is that with all of these, its just so easy to break them, typically with cards that are just good normally and broken with the commanders. You have to intentionally build a suboptimal deck, and that's usually only ever rewarding if you are trying to stick to a theme at the expense of power. Even still, you should probably prove to everyone that your Prossh deck really is running every kobold ever printed unless you want to get smashed early.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm a little surprised it took that long in the thread for Rafiq to be called out. I just changed my Bant commander from Jenara to Rafiq myself recently. Not because I want to voltron unblockable Rafiq even though I could easily do that, but because I want to pump angels in the same way Xenagos, God of Revels pumps my hydras. Xenagos/hydras is terrorizing my group right now, it hasn't lost yet, which is probably more indicative of my group's low power level than my actual deck building skills.
But I get that I will catch more heat with Rafiq at the helm. Toooootally worth the extra heat, though.
Most commanders deserve their bad reputations. I mean there's really too many to list sanely. Even commanders that are relatively janky by competitive standards, like child of alara - which is listed as tier 3 by the BS competitive tiering club - but I had a commander-centric version of that deck that put a lock on the table starting turn 4-5, won nearly every game, and was loathed by everyone I ever played it against.
But just because commanders have bad reputations doesn't mean you should always assume the worst. Look at a commander like General Tazri. Some people play her as a tribal commander. Some people play her as a combo commander. There's no way to be sure until you see more of the deck. You should go into every game cautiously. Just because someone is playing a competitive commander doesn't mean the deck is competitive, and just because they're not playing a competitive commander doesn't mean their deck isn't nasty. Know the most popular competitive decks and their weaknesses, but wait to see what the decks are doing before assuming that they're up to shenanigans.
Of course sometimes you have to be cautious, i.e. vs zur or arcum or narset or dralnu, where you might not be able to stop it until it's too late, if they have a competitive deck, and you need to be a little more proactive if you think the risk is significant.
Narset, Enlightened Master. Either they are giving themseleves infinite turns or combat steps destroying all lands... Or masively cheating on mana and dumping a bunch of plainswalkersinto play or all of the above.
Plainswalkers are definitely OP, I understand your pain and the only 4 Plainswalkers in the game -Boggart Arsonists, Graceful Antelope, Righteous Avengers & Zodiac Rooster make Narset buh-roke. It's a shame you can't play Zodiac Rooster because of Narset's color identity though.
......Sorry, I had to.
That's why every EDH deck needs to be packing Great Wall...
Almost any Commander that has an ability that you can build around gets a bad reputation in some form or another, but I think the Top 10 for me (for multiplayer) would be the following:
Thoughts on Oloro? I've been seeing more and more combo for him. Especially with the pillowfort then go off.
Oloro is annoying but manageable in my opinion. I think that Oloro's reputation is a little overblown. It might crack my Top 30, but I would rank commanders like Nekusar, Animar, Marath, Oona, RG Wort, Riku, Sisay, Kaalia, GAAIV, Sharuum, etc. before considering Oloro.
I'm glad I dont see my Zurgo Helmsmasher here as a hated commander. Since wrathing board each turn can be pretty annoying for some people, it seems that he's still manageable.
To me, I'm a new commander player, I would say that derevi is the worst I wont like to play against, since she can bypass the 2+ each time to be re-cast and just cost 4 mana to be put in play. In the same means, Zurgo bellstriker works the same with his dash cost, I dont think I would enjoy playing against.
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I can not win the game and my opponents can not lose the game.
Watching a high-powered Narset deck work is like watching someone do their taxes.
You've obviously never seen a Razaketh Storm EDH deck. Literally waiting around for half an hour to build their storm count through tutors and mana acceleration. The sad part is you don't realise you're screwed until it happens - the first time anyway.
Watching a high-powered Narset deck work is like watching someone do their taxes.
You've obviously never seen a Razaketh Storm EDH deck. Literally waiting around for half an hour to build their storm count through tutors and mana acceleration. The sad part is you don't realise you're screwed until it happens - the first time anyway.
If you look at every bad reputation or high powered Commander, you will see that they almost all have triggered abilities. If you are playing blue, run every single Stifle effect in the game, and Torpor Orb should be an auto include in every single EDH deck unless you are being a cheeseball and playing ETB:The Gathering. You will be able to interact with so many "cheap" and unfair abilities in the game if you run Stifles. Every Stifle feels like an ace up the sleeve.
With that being said, I absolutely despise Maelstrom Wanderer and Eldrazi, because they have multiple triggered abilities that you can stop once if you happen to have a Stifle effect in your hand, but since they can repeatedly cast them through the entire game you simply won't have enough Stifles or anything else to interact with the triggered abilities. They are total oppressive unbalanced bull*****.
Snip...Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: If I had to describe Prossh...it would be as an elegant and brutal killing machine...Snip
I have to agree with pretty much everything you brought up about Prossh here, and I also have had a long love/hate relationship with this destructive force of a dragon. Because of this, I felt you may like to hear about my current Prossh deck, which I've been adjusting/destroying/rebuilsing/remaking since he came our of the box...
The things you bring up about Prossh are all true. He is very efficient, and very good at everything he can do. For this reason, my current Prossh deck deck was created after applying a few personal-created deck constructing limits.
After a loooooong time of not being able to properly balance this massive winged beast, I decided on making the deck "permanent only". This helped a lot to to be down on the power. I am also careful to not play any cards that "auto-combo" with only Prossh, i.e. Food Chain and/or Xenagos, God of Revels Also, honorable mention to Purphoros, God of the Forge as (though I still play him currently) may just be way too good with Prossh.
Now, after I chose only permanents and no one-piece-combos, the deck fwlt a little flat. It was still good, but there were times when it woild be able to do what Prossh does best and blow up, and others where it felt like nothing much was happening. I didn't like this, so I tried one more thing that I think is the best thing I've done with the deck to date: I added Warp World, Genesis Wave and The Great Aurora. These cards make the deck very fun to play because now the game is centered less on Prossh, and more about gaining as many tokens as you can, making a ton of mana, and resolving one of the (usually) game winning spells to win in awesome fashion... I recommend checking this out if you still want to give Prossh a shot, so here is the decklist: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/prossh-all-permanents-warp-world-and-others/
Feel free to comment anything there, and hope Prossh can prove useful and fun to you in the future.
My only issue are the commander(s) that make removal for them difficult, or that already impact the game just by existing in the command zone.
The first one is mainly about hexproof commanders, with a grump around Narset. Something like Narset, Enlightened Master does fail to a few counterspells or if their early-acceleration/rocks are blown up. But not every deck will have that sort of answer, and Narset only has to have one marginally-lucky attack to take over the game. The other common hexproof commanders (Geist of Saint Traft/Dragonlord Ojutai/Sigards, Host of Herons/Thrun, the Last Troll), are also all very difficult to deal with, but they do not just take over and win a game if allowed to attack once.
The second issue is something in the command zone that can't be interacted with. The two main issue commanders here are Oloro, Ageless Ascetic and Inalla, Archmage Ritualist. These two commanders can just win the game with one single card (Aetherflux Reservoir and Wanderwine Prophets respectively). Their color(s) enable some of the most consistent tutors and control possible for combo decks.
There would be a third group of commanders that I find generally annoying to play against, just because the decks have become so commonly seen that I find them beyond boring. It's like running in to a Proosh or Maelstrom deck, and wondering just how long it will take the player to find their food chain so the game can finish and start up another.
There are always answers for some of these common issue commanders, but the real issue is warping every game against them into "do I have the answer in time" before the game ends up being a waste of time.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I keep hearing about Narset, and I see the mechanic that makes her broken; I must be the luckiest man in the world to have not faced her yet thus far.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm a little surprised it took that long in the thread for Rafiq to be called out. I just changed my Bant commander from Jenara to Rafiq myself recently. Not because I want to voltron unblockable Rafiq even though I could easily do that, but because I want to pump angels in the same way Xenagos, God of Revels pumps my hydras. Xenagos/hydras is terrorizing my group right now, it hasn't lost yet, which is probably more indicative of my group's low power level than my actual deck building skills.
But I get that I will catch more heat with Rafiq at the helm. Toooootally worth the extra heat, though.
But just because commanders have bad reputations doesn't mean you should always assume the worst. Look at a commander like General Tazri. Some people play her as a tribal commander. Some people play her as a combo commander. There's no way to be sure until you see more of the deck. You should go into every game cautiously. Just because someone is playing a competitive commander doesn't mean the deck is competitive, and just because they're not playing a competitive commander doesn't mean their deck isn't nasty. Know the most popular competitive decks and their weaknesses, but wait to see what the decks are doing before assuming that they're up to shenanigans.
Of course sometimes you have to be cautious, i.e. vs zur or arcum or narset or dralnu, where you might not be able to stop it until it's too late, if they have a competitive deck, and you need to be a little more proactive if you think the risk is significant.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
That's why every EDH deck needs to be packing Great Wall...
Oloro is annoying but manageable in my opinion. I think that Oloro's reputation is a little overblown. It might crack my Top 30, but I would rank commanders like Nekusar, Animar, Marath, Oona, RG Wort, Riku, Sisay, Kaalia, GAAIV, Sharuum, etc. before considering Oloro.
Watching a high-powered Narset deck work is like watching someone do their taxes.
To me, I'm a new commander player, I would say that derevi is the worst I wont like to play against, since she can bypass the 2+ each time to be re-cast and just cost 4 mana to be put in play. In the same means, Zurgo bellstriker works the same with his dash cost, I dont think I would enjoy playing against.
You've obviously never seen a Razaketh Storm EDH deck. Literally waiting around for half an hour to build their storm count through tutors and mana acceleration. The sad part is you don't realise you're screwed until it happens - the first time anyway.
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W
Razaketh, no. It was Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
With that being said, I absolutely despise Maelstrom Wanderer and Eldrazi, because they have multiple triggered abilities that you can stop once if you happen to have a Stifle effect in your hand, but since they can repeatedly cast them through the entire game you simply won't have enough Stifles or anything else to interact with the triggered abilities. They are total oppressive unbalanced bull*****.
I have to agree with pretty much everything you brought up about Prossh here, and I also have had a long love/hate relationship with this destructive force of a dragon. Because of this, I felt you may like to hear about my current Prossh deck, which I've been adjusting/destroying/rebuilsing/remaking since he came our of the box...
The things you bring up about Prossh are all true. He is very efficient, and very good at everything he can do. For this reason, my current Prossh deck deck was created after applying a few personal-created deck constructing limits.
After a loooooong time of not being able to properly balance this massive winged beast, I decided on making the deck "permanent only". This helped a lot to to be down on the power. I am also careful to not play any cards that "auto-combo" with only Prossh, i.e. Food Chain and/or Xenagos, God of Revels Also, honorable mention to Purphoros, God of the Forge as (though I still play him currently) may just be way too good with Prossh.
Now, after I chose only permanents and no one-piece-combos, the deck fwlt a little flat. It was still good, but there were times when it woild be able to do what Prossh does best and blow up, and others where it felt like nothing much was happening. I didn't like this, so I tried one more thing that I think is the best thing I've done with the deck to date: I added Warp World, Genesis Wave and The Great Aurora. These cards make the deck very fun to play because now the game is centered less on Prossh, and more about gaining as many tokens as you can, making a ton of mana, and resolving one of the (usually) game winning spells to win in awesome fashion... I recommend checking this out if you still want to give Prossh a shot, so here is the decklist: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/prossh-all-permanents-warp-world-and-others/
Feel free to comment anything there, and hope Prossh can prove useful and fun to you in the future.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!