I’ve looked at hundreds of 2-color EDH decks online and nearly every one of them runs Evolving Wilds and/or Terramorphic Expanse. Evolving Wilds is actually one of the top five most played cards in EDH and I just don’t understand why.
I can understand them in 3+ color decks, but not in 2-color. I played with a guy’s U/B deck once and my opening hand had an Evolving Wilds, so I had to decide on finding an Island or Swamp. It came up in a few turns that I needed the other color as well. I really wished it were just a Dimir Guildgate, Dismal Backwater, Jwar Isle Refuge, Frost Marsh, Salt Marsh, or Submerged Boneyard instead.
Since these two “basic fetches” find a basic land that enters tapped, why not just run as many guildgates as possible to fix your mana better?
Do you run these basic fetches in your 2-color decks? Why or why not?
I do typically run these "basic fetches" in 2-color decks for three reasons: First, because there are a lot of cards that care about cards in your graveyard (ex: Dig Through Time, Seasons Past); second, there are a lot of ways to recur a card from your yard (ex: Sun Titan, Crucible of Worlds); and third, it allows you to shuffle your deck which can be relevant if you have ways to know what the top card or cards of your deck are (ex: Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library). All these cards that I used as examples are cards I consider very useful in EDH and expect to see them in most decks.
Typically 2 colored decks on a budget run all of them right?
One of the reasons it's one of the top most played cards is probably because they can go in nearly every deck.
A lot of decks also can take advantage of the shuffling it provides. (Considering Sensei's divining Top is one of the most played artifacts in commander.)
For "guildgates" you have a lot of options, technically the Tranquil cove and Sejiri Refuge cycles are better since you gain some life.
life from the loam
I have cut them from my other decks.
My UW control deck now uses gain lands instead and my three colour deck has real fetches and Rav Bouncelands because Deveri. However, they used to be in both those decks but when the addition of lots of typed dual lands in recent sets they have fallen away.
If you're just starting out, honestly, the "guildgates" and their ilk are usually better simply due to the fact that they automatically produce 2 mana. However, there are a few nuances that can swing things in the favor of Wilds/Expanse:
Delve. If your deck runs Delve spells and "real" fetchlands are out of your price range, these still help fuel your 'yard for your strategies.
Shuffling effects. This isn't a budget concern normally as most cards that care about this are in a higher price class (Sylvan Library, Sensei's Divining Top) but it's still a thing. If you have topdeck manipulation, these provide a quick and easy shuffle.
Delirium, Treshold, etc. Basically, cards that care about the number of cards (or types) in your grave.
And there are a few other cards that specifically care about getting lands into your grave such as The Gitrog Monster. Anywhere else, I'd run the "guildgates" and such first, but even those rarely - if ever - make it into my decks anymore. For newer players however, they work well enough.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Another, very minor, and very weak argument, would be for us excessively vain and partially OCD, would be a preference for multiple matching basic lands instead of different artwork dual-lands. If your deck has a nice compliment of mana-rocks that produce color (dimir signet for example), or land-fetch ramp (rampant growth for example), and doesn't run many 3+ mana-color spells (blue sun's zenith/praetor's council/ect), then a 30+basic with cheap basic-fetch's EDH deck is completely possible.
One of my grixis decks is built around this idea. Landing blood moon/back to basics/ruination in a 3-color makes for a very satisfying feeling.
I would be surprised if the deck you borrowed did not also have the guildgates in addition to the basic fetches.
I run them in basically every deck that isnt mono colour and whilst there probably are better options they have such a small downside that its rarely an issue.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I would be surprised if the deck you borrowed did not also have the guildgates in addition to the basic fetches.
I run them in basically every deck that isnt mono colour and whilst there probably are better options they have such a small downside that its rarely an issue.
Taplands are a "small downside"?
The real question is budget. Guildgates are, perforce, strictly worse than
Yes, the loss of tempo from a tapland is that bad. And yes, any meta where Blood Moon or Back to Basics is a thing needs to cut down the nonbasics.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
To be fair, the discussion was about "guildgates" in general - eg all dual lands that ETB tapped.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The real question is budget. Guildgates are, perforce, strictly worse than...
“List of conditionally untapped duals”...
This argument is beside the point. My original post was comparing Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds (“basic fetches”) to other ETB tapped duals (“guildgates”) in 2-color decks. We all understand there are better and more expensive options for mana-fixing, but what is your opinion on these “basic fetches?”
Outside of CEDH I would argue yes, the downside of taplands is small compared to the fixing they give and particularly on a budget. Within this conversation specifically the CIPT is irrelevant as both Evolving Wilds/ Terramrphic and guildgates CIPT anyway.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Outside of CEDH I would argue yes, the downside of taplands is small compared to the fixing they give and particularly on a budget. Within this conversation specifically the CIPT is irrelevant as both Evolving Wilds/ Terramrphic and guildgates CIPT anyway.
Well, I kinda forgot vivid lands, which depend on how many colors you're playing. (Two, I'd prefer, e.g., Boros Guildgate over Vivid Meadow or Vivid Crag, three, I'd still prefer the tri-land over the Vivid, but the duals are more iffy. Four, things get interesting.)
Anyway, I think the main reason people use Expanse/Wilds is because they're cogs. Specifically they have synergy with:
They also (along with many their cousins) can be activated without paying any mana, which lets you get out Panglacial Wurm, but I've never seen that in EDH.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I play a Mizzix of the izmagnus. I have 4 mountains in my deck. These can help me find one of them when I need to, but also just get me an island when I have a pair of red spurces in my opening hand.
Islands matter when you play High Tide and so forth.
In my mono black deck, it is purely there to help me shuffle and play it with crucible of worlds so I get a swamp every turn, while only needing about 32 lands. It is risky how low that count is, but instead of mana screw... I find myself ramping and sometimes flooding thanks to my mana rocks, tutors, Liliana of the Dark Realms, Solemn Simulacrum, Liliana's Shade, Burnished Heart, Pilgrim's Eye, Wayfarer's Bauble and so forth.
When I draw Expanse/Wilds, I know I can fetch crucible and have lands for the rest of the game.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
At a quick sift through my decks, Athreos seems to be the only two-color that uses those lands. And well... take a wild guess at the amount of graveyard-centric abuse deck helmed by that particular god does. Pretty warranted.
There's not that much use for them in two-color, but there are cases where they can be benefited from as said above.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
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I can understand them in 3+ color decks, but not in 2-color. I played with a guy’s U/B deck once and my opening hand had an Evolving Wilds, so I had to decide on finding an Island or Swamp. It came up in a few turns that I needed the other color as well. I really wished it were just a Dimir Guildgate, Dismal Backwater, Jwar Isle Refuge, Frost Marsh, Salt Marsh, or Submerged Boneyard instead.
Since these two “basic fetches” find a basic land that enters tapped, why not just run as many guildgates as possible to fix your mana better?
Do you run these basic fetches in your 2-color decks? Why or why not?
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsOne of the reasons it's one of the top most played cards is probably because they can go in nearly every deck.
A lot of decks also can take advantage of the shuffling it provides. (Considering Sensei's divining Top is one of the most played artifacts in commander.)
For "guildgates" you have a lot of options, technically the Tranquil cove and Sejiri Refuge cycles are better since you gain some life.
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
@Maximum_Intelligence: Also helps. Good point that all colors can run them. Thanks.
I have cut them from my other decks.
My UW control deck now uses gain lands instead and my three colour deck has real fetches and Rav Bouncelands because Deveri. However, they used to be in both those decks but when the addition of lots of typed dual lands in recent sets they have fallen away.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Delve. If your deck runs Delve spells and "real" fetchlands are out of your price range, these still help fuel your 'yard for your strategies.
Shuffling effects. This isn't a budget concern normally as most cards that care about this are in a higher price class (Sylvan Library, Sensei's Divining Top) but it's still a thing. If you have topdeck manipulation, these provide a quick and easy shuffle.
Delirium, Treshold, etc. Basically, cards that care about the number of cards (or types) in your grave.
And there are a few other cards that specifically care about getting lands into your grave such as The Gitrog Monster. Anywhere else, I'd run the "guildgates" and such first, but even those rarely - if ever - make it into my decks anymore. For newer players however, they work well enough.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's a land that enters the battlefield and goes to the graveyard to bring another land onto the battlefield. This is what I call a "cog", a card that is more than just its rules text. Other examples of cogs:
Ornithopter, Phyrexian Walker, Memnite Free artifact creatures! And the first two also can be minor blockers in Doran.
Khalni Hydra At the very least, it's a free 8/8 with trample in token decks. At most, it's an extra GGGGGGGG from Karametra's Acolyte and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. You can also use Reverent Hunter and Aspect of Hydra with it.
Karoo lands Landfall decks love these.
Shrieking Drake Storm potential.
Stonecloaker All the potential of Shrieking Drake (and the gating creatures from Planeshift), and some graveyard hate.
Blood Artist For when you're killing a lot of things.
Cold-Eyed Selkie The real fun part here is all the ways you can boost her power. Use Bonehoard to get a (much better) Grim Flowering every turn. (Runechanter's Pike is a Grim Flowering for instants and sorceries, and why is there not a blue spell that says "Draw a card for each instant or sorcery in your graveyard. (This card isn't in your graveyard as it resolves.)"? Blade of the Bloodchief makes Fecundity look bad by comparison. Dragon Throne of Tarkir gives you a Soul's Majesty every turn. Pennon Blade gives you a Collective Unconscious every turn, and Cathars' Crusade is similar; Helm of the Gods and Cranial Plating are the same for creatures and enchantments. Maro's Mail doubles your hand size every turn. Sigil of Distinction is a Braingeyser every turn. Tying it all together? In multiplayer, islandwalk means "At least one opponent can't block this."
Fathom Mage Similar, but here it's about +1/+1 counters, so get out your Increasing Savagery, your Cathars' Crusade, your Blade of the Bloodchief, your Daily Regimen, and your Curse of Predation and Curse of Stalked Prey.
Curiosity/Keen Sense/Snake Umbra And here is where we see the difference between damage and combat damage.
Lotus Bloom Hey, you want to see a Black Lotus in some format other than Vintage?
Those are just a few notable cogs.
On phasing:
Another, very minor, and very weak argument, would be for us excessively vain and partially OCD, would be a preference for multiple matching basic lands instead of different artwork dual-lands. If your deck has a nice compliment of mana-rocks that produce color (dimir signet for example), or land-fetch ramp (rampant growth for example), and doesn't run many 3+ mana-color spells (blue sun's zenith/praetor's council/ect), then a 30+basic with cheap basic-fetch's EDH deck is completely possible.
One of my grixis decks is built around this idea. Landing blood moon/back to basics/ruination in a 3-color makes for a very satisfying feeling.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I run them in basically every deck that isnt mono colour and whilst there probably are better options they have such a small downside that its rarely an issue.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Taplands are a "small downside"?
The real question is budget. Guildgates are, perforce, strictly worse than
Painlands, fetchlands, and filter lands are all "mostly better" than guildgates. Oh, and you have City of Brass, the five-color painland.
Yes, the loss of tempo from a tapland is that bad. And yes, any meta where Blood Moon or Back to Basics is a thing needs to cut down the nonbasics.
On phasing:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
This argument is beside the point. My original post was comparing Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds (“basic fetches”) to other ETB tapped duals (“guildgates”) in 2-color decks. We all understand there are better and more expensive options for mana-fixing, but what is your opinion on these “basic fetches?”
Outside of CEDH I would argue yes, the downside of taplands is small compared to the fixing they give and particularly on a budget. Within this conversation specifically the CIPT is irrelevant as both Evolving Wilds/ Terramrphic and guildgates CIPT anyway.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Well, I kinda forgot vivid lands, which depend on how many colors you're playing. (Two, I'd prefer, e.g., Boros Guildgate over Vivid Meadow or Vivid Crag, three, I'd still prefer the tri-land over the Vivid, but the duals are more iffy. Four, things get interesting.)
Anyway, I think the main reason people use Expanse/Wilds is because they're cogs. Specifically they have synergy with:
They also (along with many their cousins) can be activated without paying any mana, which lets you get out Panglacial Wurm, but I've never seen that in EDH.
On phasing:
Shuffle effects
Budget
And basic lands matter.
I play a Mizzix of the izmagnus. I have 4 mountains in my deck. These can help me find one of them when I need to, but also just get me an island when I have a pair of red spurces in my opening hand.
Islands matter when you play High Tide and so forth.
In my mono black deck, it is purely there to help me shuffle and play it with crucible of worlds so I get a swamp every turn, while only needing about 32 lands. It is risky how low that count is, but instead of mana screw... I find myself ramping and sometimes flooding thanks to my mana rocks, tutors, Liliana of the Dark Realms, Solemn Simulacrum, Liliana's Shade, Burnished Heart, Pilgrim's Eye, Wayfarer's Bauble and so forth.
When I draw Expanse/Wilds, I know I can fetch crucible and have lands for the rest of the game.
There's not that much use for them in two-color, but there are cases where they can be benefited from as said above.