I know that people are mostly looking at cards that are just a little silly rather than cards that are mechanically broken. Still if anyone ever shows up with an un commander and asks if its ok for them to play it..... I am going to decline them. I don't want to make a precedent where these cards are legal because there are too many mechanically broken cards that don't function in a way that would play within the rules.
I am honestly strongly against them making an un cards because of the fact that people will then want to play with them. I don't want to play a game of the rules are broken and we are not playing actual magic here. Its possible that the ones that are not like.... completely vague and broken could be played but.... why don't wizards just make a vintage playable set rather than make them silver bordered and then I will have no qualms with it.
My issue comes back to the fact that these cards are not always mechanically sound in such a way that they can be played with any intent in a real game.
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Well, you'd still have to follow the Commander rules of having things in your color identity. So you can't search for any of the P9 cards save for Mox Jet and Black Lotus. You couldn't search for Tinker, either. But I get your point. It'd be like running Richard Garfield, Ph.D. as your commander as well. There're bound to be some cards to get banned.
Well, you can obviously argue that spike simply don't work since edh doesn't have sideboards or anything. If you had wishboards I guess you'd need to follow CI. As printed on the card, though, I see no reason why you'd need to follow CI rules, though.
EDIT: also I'd assume you can't have banned cards in your wishboards normally (though wishboards are a house rule so...?), so the only way he even works is if you're following the actual text on the card, in which case obv there'd be no restrictions on CI. Unless you explicitly said "you can use him as your commander but you have to follow CI rules for your wishboard even though you aren't following the banned list for your sideboard" I don't see why CI would apply.
Sidebar: I actually wonder how he's going to work in draft. Normally I believe wishes only hit your sideboard in draft, but presumably he won't have any targets since uncards aren't "banned" technically. So...he's a 4 mana 1/1?
You make some good questions. However, even with wishes, sideboards, etc., they still gotta follow the color identoty rule; otheriwse it's not commander. The card could possibly be used for kitchen table magic and follow the same rule as the wishes. In non-sanctioned magic games wishes (and cards like Spawnsire of Ulamog) you can choose any card from your collection. Cardboard Carapace follows a similar logic where it counts how many of that card you own - not in play.
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You make some good questions. However, even with wishes, sideboards, etc., they still gotta follow the color identoty rule; otheriwse it's not commander. The card could possibly be used for kitchen table magic and follow the same rule as the wishes. In non-sanctioned magic games wishes (and cards like Spawnsire of Ulamog) you can choose any card from your collection. Cardboard Carapace follows a similar logic where it counts how many of that card you own - not in play.
I agree that if you have a wishboard (say for a normal wish like burning wish) then it needs to follow CI - although wishboards are, by definition, not part of the commander rules and thus have no official CI rules unless established in whatever house rule legalizes them. I'd assume most people would prefer that their follow CI rules, but nothing says they HAVE to. It's already "not commander" if you're using wishboards because you're already modifying the rules.
I guess I should correct myself and say that you COULD have stuff in the sideboard like, say, sol ring which is, ofc, restricted in vintage and banned in legacy, and therefore legal for spike to hit but still a legal EDH card for a wishboard following the most vanilla wishboard house rule (i.e. only cards you could run in your deck). Once you start putting black lotuses in your wishboard, though, I'd say you're breaking more rules than just the CI rule, though. At that point...I mean, sure, you could house rule so that you can have banned cards but not break CI, although it seems pretty arbitrary.
Once you're talking about using him "as intended" for a casual game (i.e. any card you own, as printed on the card) then I see no reason why you'd need to follow CI, any more than you'd need to follow it when stealing someone else's permanent or casting it off daxos or whatever. You haven't broken deck construction rules by OWNING a non-CI card, so what's the difference?
To sum up, options seem to be:
1) wishboards, only cards you could legally run
2) wishboards, only cards in CI but banned cards ok
3) wishboards, no banned cards but don't have to follow CI
4) wishboards, any card you want
5) any card in collection
Of those, only #2 allows lotus but not recall or time walk. Choosing that one seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Anyway if you're playing with that rule, I think the best combo is probably time vault + voltaic key + black lotus + (dark ritual or mox or something), so it doesn't violate CI anyway. But you'd have to have a seriously damaged brain to think that would be fun for more than like 1 game.
I'd assume you can't have banned cards in your wishboards normally (though wishboards are a house rule so...?), so the only way he even works is if you're following the actual text on the card, in which case obv there'd be no restrictions on CI.
Note that Spike can wish for any card that has ever been banned (or restricted) in any format, even if that card is currently unbanned or the banning was in a format you're not currently playing.
Black CI cards not currently banned in Commander that Spike can wish for:
I'd assume you can't have banned cards in your wishboards normally (though wishboards are a house rule so...?), so the only way he even works is if you're following the actual text on the card, in which case obv there'd be no restrictions on CI.
Note that Spike can wish for any card that has ever been banned (or restricted) in any format, even if that card is currently unbanned or the banning was in a format you're not currently playing.
Yeah, I realized that after my first post (corrected it in my next one, presumably some time during while you were compiling the list).
Anyway, good list! Although I'd still pretty disinclined to play against someone wielding him as a commander.
I know that people are mostly looking at cards that are just a little silly rather than cards that are mechanically broken. Still if anyone ever shows up with an un commander and asks if its ok for them to play it..... I am going to decline them. I don't want to make a precedent where these cards are legal because there are too many mechanically broken cards that don't function in a way that would play within the rules.
I am honestly strongly against them making an un cards because of the fact that people will then want to play with them. I don't want to play a game of the rules are broken and we are not playing actual magic here. Its possible that the ones that are not like.... completely vague and broken could be played but.... why don't wizards just make a vintage playable set rather than make them silver bordered and then I will have no qualms with it.
My issue comes back to the fact that these cards are not always mechanically sound in such a way that they can be played with any intent in a real game.
Are your feelings general or specific? From what I understand, you're against all silver-bordered cards regardless if they're viable or not simply because they're silver-bordered? Or am I missing something? 'Cause I'm against someone playing a deck not legal in a particular format. I'd be very hardpressed to play a normal modern deck against a "modern" deck with silver-bordered cards unless it's literally a casual match and not a casual MODERN match. So I understand and agree with your point of expecting a normal EDH game and then someone uses cards that aren't legal in it. That being said, if some viable silver-bordered cards are added to the card pool in an Un-commander format, that's something else entirely. However, I'd still be against playing with practically half of the cards available in silver-border. Because I'm all up for playing with viable cards that don't stretch the rules too much. But the more wacky ones is a whole other can of worms...
You make some good questions. However, even with wishes, sideboards, etc., they still gotta follow the color identoty rule; otheriwse it's not commander. The card could possibly be used for kitchen table magic and follow the same rule as the wishes. In non-sanctioned magic games wishes (and cards like Spawnsire of Ulamog) you can choose any card from your collection. Cardboard Carapace follows a similar logic where it counts how many of that card you own - not in play.
I agree that if you have a wishboard (say for a normal wish like burning wish) then it needs to follow CI - although wishboards are, by definition, not part of the commander rules and thus have no official CI rules unless established in whatever house rule legalizes them. I'd assume most people would prefer that their follow CI rules, but nothing says they HAVE to. It's already "not commander" if you're using wishboards because you're already modifying the rules.
I guess I should correct myself and say that you COULD have stuff in the sideboard like, say, sol ring which is, ofc, restricted in vintage and banned in legacy, and therefore legal for spike to hit but still a legal EDH card for a wishboard following the most vanilla wishboard house rule (i.e. only cards you could run in your deck). Once you start putting black lotuses in your wishboard, though, I'd say you're breaking more rules than just the CI rule, though. At that point...I mean, sure, you could house rule so that you can have banned cards but not break CI, although it seems pretty arbitrary.
Once you're talking about using him "as intended" for a casual game (i.e. any card you own, as printed on the card) then I see no reason why you'd need to follow CI, any more than you'd need to follow it when stealing someone else's permanent or casting it off daxos or whatever. You haven't broken deck construction rules by OWNING a non-CI card, so what's the difference?
To sum up, options seem to be:
1) wishboards, only cards you could legally run
2) wishboards, only cards in CI but banned cards ok
3) wishboards, no banned cards but don't have to follow CI
4) wishboards, any card you want
5) any card in collection
Of those, only #2 allows lotus but not recall or time walk. Choosing that one seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Anyway if you're playing with that rule, I think the best combo is probably time vault + voltaic key + black lotus + (dark ritual or mox or something), so it doesn't violate CI anyway. But you'd have to have a seriously damaged brain to think that would be fun for more than like 1 game.
Am I wrong in that, if you're playing an unsanctioned match you can use the wishes as they were originally intended to be used? As long as it follows the color identity, I believed you could seek them. Because no one is having DCI level tournaments when they're playing kitchen table EDH. Likewise, if I'm playing kitchen table any other format and my opponent isn't using a SB then I can't use a SB, either.
On that note, if they do develop an Un-EDH, I wonder how the contraption deck would work, given that EDH decks use 100 cards.
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Am I wrong in that, if you're playing an unsanctioned match you can use the wishes as they were originally intended to be used? As long as it follows the color identity, I believed you could seek them.
I have no idea where you're pulling this idea from. The rules for commander (from mtgcommander.net, the official home of the format) says:
Quote from mtgcommander.net »
13) Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.
If you want to houserule that you can fetch any card BUT it has to have CI, I mean, that's fine, but it's certainly nowhere near the official rules.
Am I wrong in that, if you're playing an unsanctioned match you can use the wishes as they were originally intended to be used? As long as it follows the color identity, I believed you could seek them.
I have no idea where you're pulling this idea from. The rules for commander (from mtgcommander.net, the official home of the format) says:
Quote from mtgcommander.net »
13) Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.
If you want to houserule that you can fetch any card BUT it has to have CI, I mean, that's fine, but it's certainly nowhere near the official rules.
Ah, I see. So it can only be done if the group agrees for it to work that way. So it's a rule inherent to the format itself and not the play setting. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
As for the commander identity, I'm only assuming that, as the one with access to the cards, they'd logically have to follow. Ring of Maruf being colorless would basically allow you to get any card and you'd be able to play it thanks to the latest rule that you can now produce mana outside of your commander's identity. That would be too broken. My logic led me to the color stipulation.
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Are your feelings general or specific? From what I understand, you're against all silver-bordered cards regardless if they're viable or not simply because they're silver-bordered? Or am I missing something? 'Cause I'm against someone playing a deck not legal in a particular format. I'd be very hardpressed to play a normal modern deck against a "modern" deck with silver-bordered cards unless it's literally a casual match and not a casual MODERN match. So I understand and agree with your point of expecting a normal EDH game and then someone uses cards that aren't legal in it. That being said, if some viable silver-bordered cards are added to the card pool in an Un-commander format, that's something else entirely. However, I'd still be against playing with practically half of the cards available in silver-border. Because I'm all up for playing with viable cards that don't stretch the rules too much. But the more wacky ones is a whole other can of worms...
Its mostly that some of them dont make sense or are very open to interpretation on how they work. For example.... I think that you could actually make Earl of Squirrel a real card. There is nothing mechanically broken about it. Sure its a little silly but you can understand how that card works and the rules that would govern that.
Vile Bile on the other hand.... I have brought up before. If I were to pick this card up without releasing the card.... would I only take 2 damage? If I then flick it against your face repeatedly do you just..... lose the game essentially where I only lose 2 life?
Like I was saying, there are a lot of cards in the Un sets that are just mechanically broken. Vile Bile can kill all of my opponents in a game of tag for 1B. I dont want to play with broken mechanics that dont work in the game. I would have no qualms if they made a "silly" set with some odd cards and made them legacy / vintage legal. Sword of Dungeons & Dragons is another example of a card that could mechanically exist. There is nothing completely outrageously broken about it but I cant in good faith say I am ok with silver boardered cards / them as a commander because of the avenues it can go to. You can make silly cards without mechanically breaking them. All they have to do is not break a set to the point that the cards cant be legal in vingtage / legacy and I am fine with them. I just cant in good faith grandfather silver boardered cards in because of some of them that mechanically dont work.
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Are your feelings general or specific? From what I understand, you're against all silver-bordered cards regardless if they're viable or not simply because they're silver-bordered? Or am I missing something? 'Cause I'm against someone playing a deck not legal in a particular format. I'd be very hardpressed to play a normal modern deck against a "modern" deck with silver-bordered cards unless it's literally a casual match and not a casual MODERN match. So I understand and agree with your point of expecting a normal EDH game and then someone uses cards that aren't legal in it. That being said, if some viable silver-bordered cards are added to the card pool in an Un-commander format, that's something else entirely. However, I'd still be against playing with practically half of the cards available in silver-border. Because I'm all up for playing with viable cards that don't stretch the rules too much. But the more wacky ones is a whole other can of worms...
Its mostly that some of them dont make sense or are very open to interpretation on how they work. For example.... I think that you could actually make Earl of Squirrel a real card. There is nothing mechanically broken about it. Sure its a little silly but you can understand how that card works and the rules that would govern that.
Vile Bile on the other hand.... I have brought up before. If I were to pick this card up without releasing the card.... would I only take 2 damage? If I then flick it against your face repeatedly do you just..... lose the game essentially where I only lose 2 life?
Like I was saying, there are a lot of cards in the Un sets that are just mechanically broken. Vile Bile can kill all of my opponents in a game of tag for 1B. I dont want to play with broken mechanics that dont work in the game. I would have no qualms if they made a "silly" set with some odd cards and made them legacy / vintage legal. Sword of Dungeons & Dragons is another example of a card that could mechanically exist. There is nothing completely outrageously broken about it but I cant in good faith say I am ok with silver boardered cards / them as a commander because of the avenues it can go to. You can make silly cards without mechanically breaking them. All they have to do is not break a set to the point that the cards cant be legal in vingtage / legacy and I am fine with them. I just cant in good faith grandfather silver boardered cards in because of some of them that mechanically dont work.
Yeah, I agree. That's more or less my thoughts, as well. I don't want to have to watch what I say because of the gotcha! mechanic or having arm wrestling matches, eye staring contests, etc. I also don't want to have Shahrazad make a comeback in the form of Enter the Dungeon. The halving was also too ridiculous for me (the half mana, half damage, life, p/t, etc.). I think the safest thing so far is a consensus with the playgroup to have matches where only silver-bordered cards from a list were added to the cardpool. I think that would be fun and the deckbuilding just as challenging. It'll still be hard to have variety due to silver-colored legends having no more than 2 different colors. So maybe having a silver-colored legend as a commander can be optional. But the deck would certainly be able to contain certain silver-bordered cards. Because there are great cards that can be used in two-headed giant that would be awesome. I can only imagine casting Organ Harvest in my Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest deck! The only grey area (no pun intended) being the inclusion of a contaption deck.
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I also agree with you ISB, the local level 3 judge here has a deck that uses Grimlock as it's general but before pulling out he ask if everyone is okay with him using it.
I also agree with you ISB, the local level 3 judge here has a deck that uses Grimlock as it's general but before pulling out he ask if everyone is okay with him using it.
Grimlock, Dinobot Leader is pretty much made for commander. It's not inherently broken but it's obviously a lord so you can base a tribal EDH around it. I would love to both play with and against a Grimlock EDH deck. But, as everyone is pretty much agreeing with, it has to have at least some prior acceptance by the pod.
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Our small group here in Ottawa has a player that uses Strategy Schmategy, Goblin Tutor, Checks and Balances, Jalum Grifter and a few others.
We're now using Wishboards (10 cards) because some of us felt like trying them out.
We'll be using Spike kand Watermarket as well.
It's just a short-time thing and we'll go back to regular play rules in a bit.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Our small group here in Ottawa has a player that uses Strategy Schmategy, Goblin Tutor, Checks and Balances, Jalum Grifter and a few others.
We're now using Wishboards (10 cards) because some of us felt like trying them out.
We'll be using Spike kand Watermarket as well.
It's just a short-time thing and we'll go back to regular play rules in a bit.
That sounds really cool, actually. There are many cards that are very political in silver-border - Checks and Balances being a fine example. My playgroup has dwindled down from over 10 people to a mere 3 (myself included). So we probably only meet to play maybe once a month. So I only physically test my decks with them and it's always multiplayer commander. In order to make it fun we combine it with a planar deck containing all planes and phenomenons. So I'm also really looking forward to Explorers of Ixalan and the new dimension of gameplay that it brings. For the moment I try to play on Cockatrice as often as I can. However, the area where I live in Puerto Rico has been without electric power for 71 straight days now. But I have cellphone service once more so I can at least check on MTGSalvation every now and again. So I haven't really even been able to test on Cockatrice.
It'd be harder to play with random opponents on Cockatrice with silver-bordered cards because it's a virtual experience. So no dexterity cards or cards where you have to have physical contests. Cards that depend on age or appearances can't really be used, either. It's not currently possible to work with fractions given Cockatrice's present version. So that limits some things also. You can't have a contraption deck either, so that's another problem (but you can solve that by opening a new room with just contraptions). But having a preselected lists of cards that are okay to use along with the current commander card pool is pretty hard to do if you're facing random players in Cockatrice. There would have to be some sort of consensus on what should or shouldn't be added at a universal level - like the normal card pool - if you wanted to make an Un-format version commander.
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Vile Bile on the other hand.... I have brought up before. If I were to pick this card up without releasing the card.... would I only take 2 damage? If I then flick it against your face repeatedly do you just..... lose the game essentially where I only lose 2 life?
And what about when Vile Bile is in a sleeve? Does it just stop working?
And what about when Vile Bile is in a sleeve? Does it just stop working?
EXACTLY. There is also the question of at which point it starts to be in effect. If you were to place it in play nicely would you take 2 from the playing of the card?
So many of these cards have questionable loopholes in how they are played and I guess that is some of the "charm" of the old un sets. Its part of why so many of these cards that just mechanically don't fit into our rules are just too questionable if you ask me to expect anything to ever change from the standpoint of the actual rules of the game.
I will give wizards that some of the upcoming set look like mechanically they kind of check out but its totally on Wizards that they keep making these sets silver bordered and not vintage / legacy legal if they want them to be played in commander.
And what about when Vile Bile is in a sleeve? Does it just stop working?
EXACTLY. There is also the question of at which point it starts to be in effect. If you were to place it in play nicely would you take 2 from the playing of the card?
So many of these cards have questionable loopholes in how they are played and I guess that is some of the "charm" of the old un sets. Its part of why so many of these cards that just mechanically don't fit into our rules are just too questionable if you ask me to expect anything to ever change from the standpoint of the actual rules of the game.
I will give wizards that some of the upcoming set look like mechanically they kind of check out but its totally on Wizards that they keep making these sets silver bordered and not vintage / legacy legal if they want them to be played in commander.
These are all the points that lead me to believe that hopefully there will be a list of "legal" silver-bordered cards as far as including them in an Un-format version of commander, where you'd simply add them to the available card pool. Hopefully, they don't just add them all in willienillie. Unsets aren't the only silver-bordered cards, either. You got the Happy Holiday promos and now the Hascon promos. For all effects and purposes, there are some Holiday Promo cards that are totally usable because they're mechanically viable, as you say, which is what I want as well. Additionally, the same could be said for Grimlock, Dinobot Leader. Apart from its activation cost requiring you to transform a transformer toy to use (which can be omitted since all you really need to do is pay 2), it's basically a legendary creature with a unique creature type, that costs 1RGW, pumps vehicles, dinosaurs, and creatures that are a part of DFC (doesn't count the meld creatures since they technically don't transform). If it would be worded as such, it's very mechanically viable in a "normal" setting.
As I said, once Unstable is released and Oracle is updated to reword all the previous silver-bordered cards, I'll wait to see what Wizards plans to do with the inclusion of silver-bordered cards in other formats under an un-variant. Hopefully it only included the viable cards. If not, I will then try to popularize a card pool that would be universally accepted to a point where if I open a room in Cockatrice to play an Un-variant format, everyone in the room would know what's allowed and disallowed. I feel that would be the only way. For most parties to be pleased, at least.
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These are all the points that lead me to believe that hopefully there will be a list of "legal" silver-bordered cards as far as including them in an Un-format version of commander, where you'd simply add them to the available card pool. Hopefully, they don't just add them all in willienillie. Unsets aren't the only silver-bordered cards, either. You got the Happy Holiday promos and now the Hascon promos. For all effects and purposes, there are some Holiday Promo cards that are totally usable because they're mechanically viable, as you say, which is what I want as well. Additionally, the same could be said for Grimlock, Dinobot Leader. Apart from its activation cost requiring you to transform a transformer toy to use (which can be omitted since all you really need to do is pay 2), it's basically a legendary creature with a unique creature type, that costs 1RGW, pumps vehicles, dinosaurs, and creatures that are a part of DFC (doesn't count the meld creatures since they technically don't transform). If it would be worded as such, it's very mechanically viable in a "normal" setting.
As I said, once Unstable is released and Oracle is updated to reword all the previous silver-bordered cards, I'll wait to see what Wizards plans to do with the inclusion of silver-bordered cards in other formats under an un-variant. Hopefully it only included the viable cards. If not, I will then try to popularize a card pool that would be universally accepted to a point where if I open a room in Cockatrice to play an Un-variant format, everyone in the room would know what's allowed and disallowed. I feel that would be the only way. For most parties to be pleased, at least.
I wonder if she works with melded creatures, as well.
Holiday cards and super rare to obtain cards are yet another reason not to allow silver boardered cards. Anyone who remembers the Nalathni Dragon problem will know what I mean. Essentially, you should never do some sort of super rare give away card that is the only way to obtain a legal copy. They intentionally make these super specific and special give away cards be reprints of existing cards that can be obtained through opening sets or whatever and silver boardered cards.
Think for a second if Un cards were legal in all of commander as a Rules Committee approved rule. Something like Grimlock, Dinobot Leader would be beyond reasonable prices (already $120.00+ on tcgplayer and playable nowhere by default) because the way in which to obtain a copy was ridiculously narrow and very few overall copies were issued.
Special give aways are even more of a reason to not allow these cards in regular commander.
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These are all the points that lead me to believe that hopefully there will be a list of "legal" silver-bordered cards as far as including them in an Un-format version of commander, where you'd simply add them to the available card pool. Hopefully, they don't just add them all in willienillie. Unsets aren't the only silver-bordered cards, either. You got the Happy Holiday promos and now the Hascon promos. For all effects and purposes, there are some Holiday Promo cards that are totally usable because they're mechanically viable, as you say, which is what I want as well. Additionally, the same could be said for Grimlock, Dinobot Leader. Apart from its activation cost requiring you to transform a transformer toy to use (which can be omitted since all you really need to do is pay 2), it's basically a legendary creature with a unique creature type, that costs 1RGW, pumps vehicles, dinosaurs, and creatures that are a part of DFC (doesn't count the meld creatures since they technically don't transform). If it would be worded as such, it's very mechanically viable in a "normal" setting.
As I said, once Unstable is released and Oracle is updated to reword all the previous silver-bordered cards, I'll wait to see what Wizards plans to do with the inclusion of silver-bordered cards in other formats under an un-variant. Hopefully it only included the viable cards. If not, I will then try to popularize a card pool that would be universally accepted to a point where if I open a room in Cockatrice to play an Un-variant format, everyone in the room would know what's allowed and disallowed. I feel that would be the only way. For most parties to be pleased, at least.
I wonder if she works with melded creatures, as well.
Holiday cards and super rare to obtain cards are yet another reason not to allow silver boardered cards. Anyone who remembers the Nalathni Dragon problem will know what I mean. Essentially, you should never do some sort of super rare give away card that is the only way to obtain a legal copy. They intentionally make these super specific and special give away cards be reprints of existing cards that can be obtained through opening sets or whatever and silver boardered cards.
Think for a second if Un cards were legal in all of commander as a Rules Committee approved rule. Something like Grimlock, Dinobot Leader would be beyond reasonable prices (already $120.00+ on tcgplayer and playable nowhere by default) because the way in which to obtain a copy was ridiculously narrow and very few overall copies were issued.
Special give aways are even more of a reason to not allow these cards in regular commander.
You do have a point. But as for Nalathni Dragon, they reprinted it in comics (I think) like they originally did with Giant Badger (the only one to get reprinted in normal sets later on), Sewers of Estark, Windseeker Centaur (both never reprinted ever again at all), and Mana Crypt (finally reprinted in masters sets). I see what you mean because Mana Crypt being legal in commander makes it ridiculously expensive - even with the reprints. But if that were the case, the same could be said for the reserved list cards. Even though they're not as scarce as the Happy Holidays or Hascon promos, they're vintage legal and some are very, very expensive (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Gaea's Cradle, etc.) because of they're playability. Fruitcake Elemental is nowhere near as broken as Mana Crypt, but it's price is due to the scarcity and not functionality. I don't really think the price will spike that much if it's allowed to be used.
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I think the RC should weigh in. Silver-bordered cards have been rare up to this point because Unhinged and Unglued are old sets, and besides the rare appearance of Frankie Peanuts you'll hardly ever see un-cards. With Unstable and WOTC's expressed commitment to design the set to retain more conventional playability, a question is presented that should be answered about their legality in Commander.
In my opinion, they should set up a whitelist of silver-bordered cards that are allowed for play. Grusilda, Monster Masher for example is a very fair creature with fun possibilities as a commander but the way things are now she runs the risk of being mired in the ambiguous legality of silver-bordered cards in the format. A friend of mine has also utilized Deadheadin his zombie tribal deck to amusing effect without breaking the game. The Countdown Is at One and its ilk obviously shouldn't be at the table, however.
I think there's a place for un-cards in commander, but they should be treated delicately, and I think the RC should have the final say in the matter before Unstable creates all kinds of... unstable situations at pods regarding legality.
I think the RC should weigh in. Silver-bordered cards have been rare up to this point because Unhinged and Unglued are old sets, and besides the rare appearance of Frankie Peanuts you'll hardly ever see un-cards. With Unstable and WOTC's expressed commitment to design the set to retain more conventional playability, a question is presented that should be answered about their legality in Commander.
In my opinion, they should set up a whitelist of silver-bordered cards that are allowed for play. Grusilda, Monster Masher for example is a very fair creature with fun possibilities as a commander but the way things are now she runs the risk of being mired in the ambiguous legality of silver-bordered cards in the format. A friend of mine has also utilized Deadheadin his zombie tribal deck to amusing effect without breaking the game. The Countdown Is at One and its ilk obviously shouldn't be at the table, however.
I think there's a place for un-cards in commander, but they should be treated delicately, and I think the RC should have the final say in the matter before Unstable creates all kinds of... unstable situations at pods regarding legality.
There's not any "ambiguity". Silver bordered cards are very clearly not legal by the rules of the format.
The RC encourages house rules as long as your group is in agreement, though, if you want to play them. It's your group you should be talking to, not the RC. Any global legality of un-cards would be a nightmare.
I am honestly strongly against them making an un cards because of the fact that people will then want to play with them. I don't want to play a game of the rules are broken and we are not playing actual magic here. Its possible that the ones that are not like.... completely vague and broken could be played but.... why don't wizards just make a vintage playable set rather than make them silver bordered and then I will have no qualms with it.
My issue comes back to the fact that these cards are not always mechanically sound in such a way that they can be played with any intent in a real game.
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[Modern] Allies
You make some good questions. However, even with wishes, sideboards, etc., they still gotta follow the color identoty rule; otheriwse it's not commander. The card could possibly be used for kitchen table magic and follow the same rule as the wishes. In non-sanctioned magic games wishes (and cards like Spawnsire of Ulamog) you can choose any card from your collection. Cardboard Carapace follows a similar logic where it counts how many of that card you own - not in play.
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I guess I should correct myself and say that you COULD have stuff in the sideboard like, say, sol ring which is, ofc, restricted in vintage and banned in legacy, and therefore legal for spike to hit but still a legal EDH card for a wishboard following the most vanilla wishboard house rule (i.e. only cards you could run in your deck). Once you start putting black lotuses in your wishboard, though, I'd say you're breaking more rules than just the CI rule, though. At that point...I mean, sure, you could house rule so that you can have banned cards but not break CI, although it seems pretty arbitrary.
Once you're talking about using him "as intended" for a casual game (i.e. any card you own, as printed on the card) then I see no reason why you'd need to follow CI, any more than you'd need to follow it when stealing someone else's permanent or casting it off daxos or whatever. You haven't broken deck construction rules by OWNING a non-CI card, so what's the difference?
To sum up, options seem to be:
1) wishboards, only cards you could legally run
2) wishboards, only cards in CI but banned cards ok
3) wishboards, no banned cards but don't have to follow CI
4) wishboards, any card you want
5) any card in collection
Of those, only #2 allows lotus but not recall or time walk. Choosing that one seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Anyway if you're playing with that rule, I think the best combo is probably time vault + voltaic key + black lotus + (dark ritual or mox or something), so it doesn't violate CI anyway. But you'd have to have a seriously damaged brain to think that would be fun for more than like 1 game.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Black CI cards not currently banned in Commander that Spike can wish for:
- Dingus Egg
- Gauntlet of Might (though not very useful to a mono-B deck)
- Icy Manipulator
- Sol Ring
- Demonic Tutor
- Candelabra of Tawnos
- Feldon's Cane
- Ivory Tower
- Mishra's Workshop
- Mind Twist
- Mirror Universe
- Sword of the Ages
- Underworld Dreams
- Maze of Ith
- Zuran Orb
- Black Vise
- Hymn to Tourach
- Strip Mine
- Thawing Glaciers
- Juggernaut
- Mana Crypt
- Hypnotic Specter
- Fluctuator
- Lotus Petal
- Memory Jar
- Voltaic Key
- Doomsday
- Grim Monolith
- Mana Vault
- Mox Diamond
- Vampiric Tutor
- Yawgmoth's Will
- Dark Ritual
- Rishadan Port
- Demonic Consultation
- Necropotence
- Entomb
- Ancient Tomb
- Chrome Mox
- Lion's Eye Diamond
- Skullclamp
- Metalworker
- Bazaar of Baghdad
- Illusionary Mask
- Arcbound Ravager
- Disciple of the Vault
- Darksteel Citadel
- Vault of Whispers
- Trinisphere
- Aether Vial
- Imperial Seal
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Sword of the Meek
- Bitterblossom
- Dark Depths
- Dread Return
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Cloudpost
- Chalice of the Void
- Eye of Ugin
- Lodestone Golem
- Emrakul, the Promised End
- Smuggler's Copter
- Aetherworks Marvel
- Thorn of Amethyst
- Crucible of Worlds
- Kokusho, the Evening Star
- Grindstone
- Staff of Domination
Also, every legendary creature and legendary land printed before November 1995:Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Anyway, good list! Although I'd still pretty disinclined to play against someone wielding him as a commander.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Are your feelings general or specific? From what I understand, you're against all silver-bordered cards regardless if they're viable or not simply because they're silver-bordered? Or am I missing something? 'Cause I'm against someone playing a deck not legal in a particular format. I'd be very hardpressed to play a normal modern deck against a "modern" deck with silver-bordered cards unless it's literally a casual match and not a casual MODERN match. So I understand and agree with your point of expecting a normal EDH game and then someone uses cards that aren't legal in it. That being said, if some viable silver-bordered cards are added to the card pool in an Un-commander format, that's something else entirely. However, I'd still be against playing with practically half of the cards available in silver-border. Because I'm all up for playing with viable cards that don't stretch the rules too much. But the more wacky ones is a whole other can of worms...
Am I wrong in that, if you're playing an unsanctioned match you can use the wishes as they were originally intended to be used? As long as it follows the color identity, I believed you could seek them. Because no one is having DCI level tournaments when they're playing kitchen table EDH. Likewise, if I'm playing kitchen table any other format and my opponent isn't using a SB then I can't use a SB, either.
On that note, if they do develop an Un-EDH, I wonder how the contraption deck would work, given that EDH decks use 100 cards.
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If you want to houserule that you can fetch any card BUT it has to have CI, I mean, that's fine, but it's certainly nowhere near the official rules.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Ah, I see. So it can only be done if the group agrees for it to work that way. So it's a rule inherent to the format itself and not the play setting. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
As for the commander identity, I'm only assuming that, as the one with access to the cards, they'd logically have to follow. Ring of Maruf being colorless would basically allow you to get any card and you'd be able to play it thanks to the latest rule that you can now produce mana outside of your commander's identity. That would be too broken. My logic led me to the color stipulation.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Its mostly that some of them dont make sense or are very open to interpretation on how they work. For example.... I think that you could actually make Earl of Squirrel a real card. There is nothing mechanically broken about it. Sure its a little silly but you can understand how that card works and the rules that would govern that.
Vile Bile on the other hand.... I have brought up before. If I were to pick this card up without releasing the card.... would I only take 2 damage? If I then flick it against your face repeatedly do you just..... lose the game essentially where I only lose 2 life?
Like I was saying, there are a lot of cards in the Un sets that are just mechanically broken. Vile Bile can kill all of my opponents in a game of tag for 1B. I dont want to play with broken mechanics that dont work in the game. I would have no qualms if they made a "silly" set with some odd cards and made them legacy / vintage legal. Sword of Dungeons & Dragons is another example of a card that could mechanically exist. There is nothing completely outrageously broken about it but I cant in good faith say I am ok with silver boardered cards / them as a commander because of the avenues it can go to. You can make silly cards without mechanically breaking them. All they have to do is not break a set to the point that the cards cant be legal in vingtage / legacy and I am fine with them. I just cant in good faith grandfather silver boardered cards in because of some of them that mechanically dont work.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Yeah, I agree. That's more or less my thoughts, as well. I don't want to have to watch what I say because of the gotcha! mechanic or having arm wrestling matches, eye staring contests, etc. I also don't want to have Shahrazad make a comeback in the form of Enter the Dungeon. The halving was also too ridiculous for me (the half mana, half damage, life, p/t, etc.). I think the safest thing so far is a consensus with the playgroup to have matches where only silver-bordered cards from a list were added to the cardpool. I think that would be fun and the deckbuilding just as challenging. It'll still be hard to have variety due to silver-colored legends having no more than 2 different colors. So maybe having a silver-colored legend as a commander can be optional. But the deck would certainly be able to contain certain silver-bordered cards. Because there are great cards that can be used in two-headed giant that would be awesome. I can only imagine casting Organ Harvest in my Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest deck! The only grey area (no pun intended) being the inclusion of a contaption deck.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Grimlock, Dinobot Leader is pretty much made for commander. It's not inherently broken but it's obviously a lord so you can base a tribal EDH around it. I would love to both play with and against a Grimlock EDH deck. But, as everyone is pretty much agreeing with, it has to have at least some prior acceptance by the pod.
Rules Lawyer isn't legendary though...
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
We're now using Wishboards (10 cards) because some of us felt like trying them out.
We'll be using Spike kand Watermarket as well.
It's just a short-time thing and we'll go back to regular play rules in a bit.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
That sounds really cool, actually. There are many cards that are very political in silver-border - Checks and Balances being a fine example. My playgroup has dwindled down from over 10 people to a mere 3 (myself included). So we probably only meet to play maybe once a month. So I only physically test my decks with them and it's always multiplayer commander. In order to make it fun we combine it with a planar deck containing all planes and phenomenons. So I'm also really looking forward to Explorers of Ixalan and the new dimension of gameplay that it brings. For the moment I try to play on Cockatrice as often as I can. However, the area where I live in Puerto Rico has been without electric power for 71 straight days now. But I have cellphone service once more so I can at least check on MTGSalvation every now and again. So I haven't really even been able to test on Cockatrice.
It'd be harder to play with random opponents on Cockatrice with silver-bordered cards because it's a virtual experience. So no dexterity cards or cards where you have to have physical contests. Cards that depend on age or appearances can't really be used, either. It's not currently possible to work with fractions given Cockatrice's present version. So that limits some things also. You can't have a contraption deck either, so that's another problem (but you can solve that by opening a new room with just contraptions). But having a preselected lists of cards that are okay to use along with the current commander card pool is pretty hard to do if you're facing random players in Cockatrice. There would have to be some sort of consensus on what should or shouldn't be added at a universal level - like the normal card pool - if you wanted to make an Un-format version commander.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
EXACTLY. There is also the question of at which point it starts to be in effect. If you were to place it in play nicely would you take 2 from the playing of the card?
So many of these cards have questionable loopholes in how they are played and I guess that is some of the "charm" of the old un sets. Its part of why so many of these cards that just mechanically don't fit into our rules are just too questionable if you ask me to expect anything to ever change from the standpoint of the actual rules of the game.
I will give wizards that some of the upcoming set look like mechanically they kind of check out but its totally on Wizards that they keep making these sets silver bordered and not vintage / legacy legal if they want them to be played in commander.
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[Modern] Allies
These are all the points that lead me to believe that hopefully there will be a list of "legal" silver-bordered cards as far as including them in an Un-format version of commander, where you'd simply add them to the available card pool. Hopefully, they don't just add them all in willienillie. Unsets aren't the only silver-bordered cards, either. You got the Happy Holiday promos and now the Hascon promos. For all effects and purposes, there are some Holiday Promo cards that are totally usable because they're mechanically viable, as you say, which is what I want as well. Additionally, the same could be said for Grimlock, Dinobot Leader. Apart from its activation cost requiring you to transform a transformer toy to use (which can be omitted since all you really need to do is pay 2), it's basically a legendary creature with a unique creature type, that costs 1RGW, pumps vehicles, dinosaurs, and creatures that are a part of DFC (doesn't count the meld creatures since they technically don't transform). If it would be worded as such, it's very mechanically viable in a "normal" setting.
As I said, once Unstable is released and Oracle is updated to reword all the previous silver-bordered cards, I'll wait to see what Wizards plans to do with the inclusion of silver-bordered cards in other formats under an un-variant. Hopefully it only included the viable cards. If not, I will then try to popularize a card pool that would be universally accepted to a point where if I open a room in Cockatrice to play an Un-variant format, everyone in the room would know what's allowed and disallowed. I feel that would be the only way. For most parties to be pleased, at least.
I wonder if she works with melded creatures, as well.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Holiday cards and super rare to obtain cards are yet another reason not to allow silver boardered cards. Anyone who remembers the Nalathni Dragon problem will know what I mean. Essentially, you should never do some sort of super rare give away card that is the only way to obtain a legal copy. They intentionally make these super specific and special give away cards be reprints of existing cards that can be obtained through opening sets or whatever and silver boardered cards.
Think for a second if Un cards were legal in all of commander as a Rules Committee approved rule. Something like Grimlock, Dinobot Leader would be beyond reasonable prices (already $120.00+ on tcgplayer and playable nowhere by default) because the way in which to obtain a copy was ridiculously narrow and very few overall copies were issued.
Special give aways are even more of a reason to not allow these cards in regular commander.
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[Modern] Allies
You do have a point. But as for Nalathni Dragon, they reprinted it in comics (I think) like they originally did with Giant Badger (the only one to get reprinted in normal sets later on), Sewers of Estark, Windseeker Centaur (both never reprinted ever again at all), and Mana Crypt (finally reprinted in masters sets). I see what you mean because Mana Crypt being legal in commander makes it ridiculously expensive - even with the reprints. But if that were the case, the same could be said for the reserved list cards. Even though they're not as scarce as the Happy Holidays or Hascon promos, they're vintage legal and some are very, very expensive (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Gaea's Cradle, etc.) because of they're playability. Fruitcake Elemental is nowhere near as broken as Mana Crypt, but it's price is due to the scarcity and not functionality. I don't really think the price will spike that much if it's allowed to be used.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
In my opinion, they should set up a whitelist of silver-bordered cards that are allowed for play. Grusilda, Monster Masher for example is a very fair creature with fun possibilities as a commander but the way things are now she runs the risk of being mired in the ambiguous legality of silver-bordered cards in the format. A friend of mine has also utilized Deadheadin his zombie tribal deck to amusing effect without breaking the game. The Countdown Is at One and its ilk obviously shouldn't be at the table, however.
I think there's a place for un-cards in commander, but they should be treated delicately, and I think the RC should have the final say in the matter before Unstable creates all kinds of... unstable situations at pods regarding legality.
The RC encourages house rules as long as your group is in agreement, though, if you want to play them. It's your group you should be talking to, not the RC. Any global legality of un-cards would be a nightmare.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6