This may be a bit left field but I am sure others have had the same thought and if this belongs in a different place let me know.
Plameswalkers as Commanders, can this be a good idea? Ive thought about it for awhile and with Wizards recent change to make Planeswalkers Legendary I could see them perhaps poking the community to see if this would be okay. They have tested the waters with this in the C14 precons (although with additional rules text) and I feel with some proper bans (looking at you Sorin Markov....) this could enable even more crazy and fun EDH decks to be built.
But what is yalls opinion? Would this be too impactful on your meta to have someone play Jace, thr Mind Sculptor or Ugin as generals? Or would it enable more fun strategies that EDH as a casual format is known for?
I am on mobile so it wont allow me to create a poll but please chime in as I want to also see if anyones ever played it as a house rule or something perhaps and how it impacted their games.
What would the tuck rule ruin against planeswalkers that it doesnt already ruin about legendary creatures? I am not sure if that would have as much of an impact on planeswalkers specifically as opposed to Commanders in general. Hell theres 5 generals out now that dont care much about being cast as is.
Expect Doubling Season and a good portion of proliferate cards to spike in price if that did happen. And while banning Sorin Markov seems like a no-brainer, there's others out there that would be just as necessary to ban that don't seem needful of it(Jace Beleren, Liliana Vess along with a couple of her later incarnations...).
I think it's better to leave them out of the commander zone save for the ones specifically designed as such. Too much trouble would be asked by opening those floodgates, even with responsible bannings.
It's something I'm always interested in doing, but more as a novelty/excuse to play my favorite, less-than-efficient Planeswalkers in Commander (Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker come to mind). I think as a house rule, it'd be fine - Your playgroup allows you to, so there's no problem. I'm not sure if Wizards would make it so we could run any as a Commander officially, outside of the 2014 ones. Some could be problematic as Commanders, but the same could be said of already existing Legendary Creatures (Tier 1/Competitive).
If I remember, there used to be two ban lists. One was cards you could not run as your Commander. They changed things up and merged the lists to simplify and streamline. Braids, Cabal Minion could definitely be more oppressive as a Mono-B Stax Commander than as a member of the 99, but it's just on the banlist. Cards like Sorin Markov would probably get the same treatment, where they're just straight banned from the format (and while I like Sorin, that might be fair).
Thecycleofplaneswalkersas commanders had the "knobs" (starting loyalty, cost of loyalty abilities, etc) tuned for commander.
All except Teferi started at 3 loyalty and could only activate their -2 once. By only having +2 and -2 abilities, they were hard to kill and re-use again in the same turn. You just have a lot of trouble getting them to 0 loyalty.
Not sure why Teferi worked out differently, though I've never seen someone -1 him 5 turns in a row. I guess they wanted the ultimate to be harder to achieve.
In any case, the knobs are tuned in this way so that you have to use the +2 abilities as often as the -2 abilities in order to keep going. If you've ever played one of these guys, you realize that you alternate between powerful ability and weak ability every turn, unless you go for the ultimate.
Now, imagine Karn Liberated. You cast him, -3. Next turn, -3 (he goes to command zone), you recast him and -3 again. No reason to ever use another ability. You can get multiple activations per turn easily.
I think there are some planeswalkers that are better suited for commanding decks than others. Some just have knobs that are more suited to command zones. Elspeth, Sun's Champion seems fine, for example.
But what are you supposed to do about Garruk, Primal Hunter drawing tons of cards every turn? Even multiple times per turn.
Unilaterally making all planeswalkers playable as commanders is a bad idea to me because it will necessitate bans. I'm not a fan of rules changes that force the banning of multiple cards.
Planeswalkers as commanders are not a bad thing but there's a reason why the only ones legal for it (outside of house rules), are the set of precon commanders from 2014. Those walkers were designed with commander in mind and their abilities are balanced appropriately for it. Not too mention, that each one has a clear cut theme to build around.
Other Planeswalkers are broken, hit or miss. I'll try to give an example of each.
Miss- Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded. An extreme example but he'll get the point across. He's cheap but that's the nicest thing that can be said about him. His plus gets you a card but can also make you discard it, so really, there's a chance you get nothing from that. His minus is situational and expensive, so that's not much help either. His ult is something you probably never going to get to. While Tibalt's abilities are weak, they are also all over the place. Tibal doesn't give a clear cut direction for a deck and doesn't give you really any advantages to try and form anything meaningful around him.
Hit- Tezzeret the Seeker. Now Tezzeret, could helm a deck. He's got a clear focus on artifacts. His plus is about getting more out of them. His minus tutors for them. His ult can be a win condition under the right circumstances. He's also in U, which cares a lot about artifacts.
Broken- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He comes down and just exiles most of the opponents' fields. That's all he be needed and having that sitting in the command zone, would not make for a healthy game.
I believe that Planeswalkers, if all of them would be allowed to be commanders, would be filtered into the categories. The miss would never be used, the hit would be seen even more than they are now and the broken would be banned. Not too mention, cards like Doubling Season and The Chain Viel would shoot up in price.
The idea has some merit but would have a lot of repercussions and thus, would have to be handled delicately.
Gotta agree with Tibalt being a miss. I actually got approved run him as my commander but he never really got anywhere and my throat would hurt at the end of every day because I had to announce my every play in a "Him" from the Power Puff Girls impression.
No thanks. Far too many efficient card advantage dorks for a low mana cost for my liking.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
I don't really see a problem with allowing planeswalkers as commanders.
Walkers see almost no play because they are pretty bad. Many are restricted in colors so wouldn't be able to do one card combos like the catlady combo from standard.
There are only a handful of planeswalkers that I feel would need attention in the command zone, mainly Ugin and Sorin, but besides those, I see no downside to any others mentioned. Using Karn to exile a permanent for 7 mana in a colorless deck isn't new, and sure it is repeatable but colorless can't respond as well to attacks as a colored deck with Karn thrown in could for example, then you are stuck paying 9, 11, etc. just to exile a permanent. I don't see a problem with that. Same goes for Garruk, there is a UG commander that does the same thing for 1 mana more on ETB, and it is easier to flicker a creature than a planeswalker.
The main thing is, this opens up plenty of innovative decks that might not have been out there before. If you want to run a UB commander centered around artifacts, you are stuck with Silas Renn (which isn't terrible by any means, but definitely not the best) when you could be running any of the UB Tezz's and get to feel a side that in UB is under represented in EDH IMO. Where is the RW tempo-based control style general in EDH? Would making Ajani Vengeant fill that niche? Play UW with Narset, or Bant with Tamiyo? RB artifacts-matter in Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast?
I guess my main point is that it would open up more strategies in EDH that aren't currently available or viable. I can see the points about certain Planeswalkers being problems, but you couldn't play with Ugin in the command zone before, I don't think giving access to all the other Planeswalkers without Ugin or Sorin would be that much of an issue. I may talk with my playgroup and see if maybe we can take down some data and build proxy decks around some planeswalkers and see how strong they would feel in a normal game of EDH (barring Doubling Season since if this change happens it might have to be banned in EDH, but given that it usually only breaks planeswalkers and there are quite a couple of replacements in EDH for it, I don't think it would cause too much outcry) and see where that gets me.
Broken- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He comes down and just exiles most of the opponents' fields. That's all he be needed and having that sitting in the command zone, would not make for a healthy game.
Ugin is broken? How is he much worse than, say, Child of Alara? Child of alara only kills, not exiles, granted, and can't keep artifacts in play through the wipe, though neither can your opponents...of course you're only playing colorless stuff, but then you might have a hard time against cmc > 6-7....but child also has one teensy weensy advantage in that it gives you access to ALL FIVE COLORS. As compared to zero colors. Kind of a thing.
Don't get me wrong, I had a nasty CoA deck that everyone else hated, so it can definitely suck to play against constant boardwipes, but ugin's power level is no contest compared to a child list. And few people really complain about child in the broad scheme of things.
Realistically, compared to child, ugin sucks. compared to sidisi, liliana sucks. Compared to arcum, tezzeret sucks. There aren't really any pws off the top of my head that are really more problematic than an existing legend. Sorin doesn't really have an obvious analogue in a legend, but he's just not that great of a card except in pretty low-powered groups, so I doubt he'd be a major problem. He can only target one person, he's sitting in the command zone telegraphing his move, etc.
As for whether it'll actually happen, idk. I think it's less than a 50% chance, but it's possible. Could also become another variant (which it sort of already is).
I don't really see a problem with allowing planeswalkers as commanders.
Walkers see almost no play because they are pretty bad. Many are restricted in colors so wouldn't be able to do one card combos like the catlady combo from standard.
Your bolded comment(bold mine) is MUCH more wrong than right. What I'm assuming you meant to say is "Depending on the deck, planeswalkers can be more bad than good." For instance, consider Captain Sisay. Given the recent rules change, she just got a huge boost in power, and one would be foolish not to at least consider several planeswalkers in a deck helmed by her.
I grant you that PWs don't last long in an EDH game(guess the average lifespan of my Money Jace in my Niv deck? lol), but they often don't need to. Having the ability to cast, and then(assuming no counter) use a game changing ability(which doesn't necessarily need to be an ultimate) can be particularly nasty. Creatures have, on average, one round before they can start changing the game thanks to summoning sickness. Of course there arewaysaround that, but PWs have no such limitations. Also, let's consider blinking...Banishing Light for example. Sure, this type of combo may go off and be very rare now, but having one piece always available from the CZ? Big changer there...
There are only a handful of planeswalkers that I feel would need attention in the command zone, mainly Ugin and Sorin, but besides those, I see no downside to any others mentioned. Using Karn to exile a permanent for 7 mana in a colorless deck isn't new, and sure it is repeatable but colorless can't respond as well to attacks as a colored deck with Karn thrown in could for example, then you are stuck paying 9, 11, etc. just to exile a permanent. I don't see a problem with that. Same goes for Garruk, there is a UG commander that does the same thing for 1 mana more on ETB, and it is easier to flicker a creature than a planeswalker.
The main thing is, this opens up plenty of innovative decks that might not have been out there before. If you want to run a UB commander centered around artifacts, you are stuck with Silas Renn (which isn't terrible by any means, but definitely not the best) when you could be running any of the UB Tezz's and get to feel a side that in UB is under represented in EDH IMO. Where is the RW tempo-based control style general in EDH? Would making Ajani Vengeant fill that niche? Play UW with Narset, or Bant with Tamiyo? RB artifacts-matter in Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast?
I guess my main point is that it would open up more strategies in EDH that aren't currently available or viable. I can see the points about certain Planeswalkers being problems, but you couldn't play with Ugin in the command zone before, I don't think giving access to all the other Planeswalkers without Ugin or Sorin would be that much of an issue. I may talk with my playgroup and see if maybe we can take down some data and build proxy decks around some planeswalkers and see how strong they would feel in a normal game of EDH (barring Doubling Season since if this change happens it might have to be banned in EDH, but given that it usually only breaks planeswalkers and there are quite a couple of replacements in EDH for it, I don't think it would cause too much outcry) and see where that gets me.
I hear variations on your bolded comment a lot, but I never see examples. Could you provide any evidence? I think you'd be surprised at what strategies ARE viable even w/o planeswalker commandership.
It's also not uncommon to play a commander just for their colors and nothing else, which is its own level of satisfying: having someone prepare for one thing, only to get blindsided by another tactic, is an underutilized technique. Granted, it may require the use of tutors or draws, but that makes every victory all the more satisfying.
Broken- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He comes down and just exiles most of the opponents' fields. That's all he be needed and having that sitting in the command zone, would not make for a healthy game.
Ugin is broken? How is he much worse than, say, Child of Alara? Child of alara only kills, not exiles, granted, and can't keep artifacts in play through the wipe, though neither can your opponents...of course you're only playing colorless stuff, but then you might have a hard time against cmc > 6-7....but child also has one teensy weensy advantage in that it gives you access to ALL FIVE COLORS. As compared to zero colors. Kind of a thing.
Don't get me wrong, I had a nasty CoA deck that everyone else hated, so it can definitely suck to play against constant boardwipes, but ugin's power level is no contest compared to a child list. And few people really complain about child in the broad scheme of things.
Realistically, compared to child, ugin sucks. compared to sidisi, liliana sucks. Compared to arcum, tezzeret sucks. There aren't really any pws off the top of my head that are really more problematic than an existing legend. Sorin doesn't really have an obvious analogue in a legend, but he's just not that great of a card except in pretty low-powered groups, so I doubt he'd be a major problem. He can only target one person, he's sitting in the command zone telegraphing his move, etc.
As for whether it'll actually happen, idk. I think it's less than a 50% chance, but it's possible. Could also become another variant (which it sort of already is).
Child also has the disadvantage in needing to hit the GY; which requires more cards to interact in getting it BACK from the GY to do the boardwipe all over again. Ugin has no such limitation, and the mana problem? A minor speed bump in colorless decks.
Further, to address your secondary argument: I think you're looking more at PW ultimates in determining the 'suckage' of said walkers(apologies if I'm wrong). That is a misdirection, as many of the PWs have much more value in their other two/three abilities(which was noted with Ugin). As I said earlier, being able to use Jace's -1 ability exclusively is pretty powerful in certain decks, PARTICULARLY for blue. Getting ETB triggers from Garruk's beast tokens can also be powerful, especially since green LOVES more creatures.
Not every PW would warp the format(Tibalt won't even give the radar a blip), but repeated +/- abilities on demand could be something bad. Part of the balance of PWs(bad balance at times, admittedly) is using the +s and -s to keep using your preferred one. Take out the balance, and...*shrug*
Overall, I think this would be a bad idea; as was said, the PWs from Commander 2014 were DESIGNED for the format. Throwing in all the other planeswalkers 'just cuz' would do more harm than good. I'd be happy to be wrong...but I don't think I would be.
Broken- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He comes down and just exiles most of the opponents' fields. That's all he be needed and having that sitting in the command zone, would not make for a healthy game.
Ugin is broken? How is he much worse than, say, Child of Alara? Child of alara only kills, not exiles, granted, and can't keep artifacts in play through the wipe, though neither can your opponents...of course you're only playing colorless stuff, but then you might have a hard time against cmc > 6-7....but child also has one teensy weensy advantage in that it gives you access to ALL FIVE COLORS. As compared to zero colors. Kind of a thing.
Don't get me wrong, I had a nasty CoA deck that everyone else hated, so it can definitely suck to play against constant boardwipes, but ugin's power level is no contest compared to a child list. And few people really complain about child in the broad scheme of things.
Realistically, compared to child, ugin sucks. compared to sidisi, liliana sucks. Compared to arcum, tezzeret sucks. There aren't really any pws off the top of my head that are really more problematic than an existing legend. Sorin doesn't really have an obvious analogue in a legend, but he's just not that great of a card except in pretty low-powered groups, so I doubt he'd be a major problem. He can only target one person, he's sitting in the command zone telegraphing his move, etc.
As for whether it'll actually happen, idk. I think it's less than a 50% chance, but it's possible. Could also become another variant (which it sort of already is).
I think you underestimate Ugin a little, He has 2 real big advantages over Child, he can go back to the command zone and wipe the field at the same time and he won't hit any of the permanents he would play.
Broken- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He comes down and just exiles most of the opponents' fields. That's all he be needed and having that sitting in the command zone, would not make for a healthy game.
Ugin is broken? How is he much worse than, say, Child of Alara? Child of alara only kills, not exiles, granted, and can't keep artifacts in play through the wipe, though neither can your opponents...of course you're only playing colorless stuff, but then you might have a hard time against cmc > 6-7....but child also has one teensy weensy advantage in that it gives you access to ALL FIVE COLORS. As compared to zero colors. Kind of a thing.
Don't get me wrong, I had a nasty CoA deck that everyone else hated, so it can definitely suck to play against constant boardwipes, but ugin's power level is no contest compared to a child list. And few people really complain about child in the broad scheme of things.
Realistically, compared to child, ugin sucks. compared to sidisi, liliana sucks. Compared to arcum, tezzeret sucks. There aren't really any pws off the top of my head that are really more problematic than an existing legend. Sorin doesn't really have an obvious analogue in a legend, but he's just not that great of a card except in pretty low-powered groups, so I doubt he'd be a major problem. He can only target one person, he's sitting in the command zone telegraphing his move, etc.
As for whether it'll actually happen, idk. I think it's less than a 50% chance, but it's possible. Could also become another variant (which it sort of already is).
I think you underestimate Ugin a little, He has 2 real big advantages over Child, he can go back to the command zone and wipe the field at the same time and he won't hit any of the permanents he would play.
There's also the fact that Ugin is quite a bit more precise than Child. The situation he comes into may not require him to use all of his loyalty and still destroy most board states. That opens up other possibilities for him as he now has breathing room to build himself back up to either do it again or even eventually ult and have his player pull even further ahead. That last possibility is a little unlikely, but the fact that Ugin has few different possible scenarios that he can more readily create and/or get into shows that he's more of an asset than the Child.
Child needing to hit the graveyard is not a significant disadvantage with all the recursion in the format, it forces you to include recursion, but that means he basically always costs 5 (by which I mean 4B, by which I mean corpse dance). Ugin costs a lot and will keep costing more each time (and it's very unlikely he'll get to wipe twice, let alone ult), until something wipes out his mana rocks and then he's stranded forever.
Definitely in 1v1 Child would wreck ugin horribly (child probably doesn't even play anything for ugin to kill), although that's probably not the best metric.
I think you underestimate the difficultly in generating the mana to play ugin, especially if he gets wiped. Kozilek draws into more ramp, which is why he's so easy to replay. If Ugin is dying repeatedly, without the draw power of Koz I don't think he'll recover easily, and he has almost zero chance of recovering from any artifact wipe.
Ignoring the color issue, I'd probably say ugin is better in a vacuum, but it's absolutely ludicrous to think that the difference between the two is greater than the difference between being able to play ANY CARD IN THE FORMAT instead of a very small percentage of them.
I will say that Ugin is more LIKELY to be "unfun", especially in low-powered groups, because he's ALWAYS going to gravitate towards wiping the field, because that's kind of what he does, and he doesn't have any disadvantage to you when he does it, so you're always going to do it. I see a lot of child lists that play child as sort of a backup plan and don't pack the powerful recursion pieces or the tutors to find them, and play a bunch of permanents, and thus would be demotivated from wiping the board with child turn after turn. So compared to those lists, maybe Ugin is a bigger problem. But in terms of power IF you're building to wipe the board repeatedly, child is better by a mile. You get counterspells, you get landwipes (oh hi global ruin), you get recursion, you get land ramp, you get the ability to interact at instant speed to stop combos and whatnot...it's really not a contest.
I don't really see a problem with allowing planeswalkers as commanders.
Walkers see almost no play because they are pretty bad. Many are restricted in colors so wouldn't be able to do one card combos like the catlady combo from standard.
Your bolded comment(bold mine) is MUCH more wrong than right. What I'm assuming you meant to say is "Depending on the deck, planeswalkers can be more bad than good." For instance, consider Captain Sisay. Given the recent rules change, she just got a huge boost in power, and one would be foolish not to at least consider several planeswalkers in a deck helmed by her.
I grant you that PWs don't last long in an EDH game(guess the average lifespan of my Money Jace in my Niv deck? lol), but they often don't need to. Having the ability to cast, and then(assuming no counter) use a game changing ability(which doesn't necessarily need to be an ultimate) can be particularly nasty. Creatures have, on average, one round before they can start changing the game thanks to summoning sickness. Of course there arewaysaround that, but PWs have no such limitations. Also, let's consider blinking...Banishing Light for example. Sure, this type of combo may go off and be very rare now, but having one piece always available from the CZ? Big changer there...
At least when I made my post I went to the gatherer, looked at possible cards and then tried to make an informed opinion. You clearly didn't.
Planeswalkers are bad period. Planeswalkers are priced based on the fact that you can slowly take over the game but in edh it's really hard to take over the with a permanent that is really easy to interact with. Outside of specific plays it's near impossible.
I guess you can like wipe the board with Elspeth, Sun's Champion then blink her with Felidar guardian and get three 1/1s for mere 10 mana. Which is almost a playable strategy.
To go infinite with planeswalker activations (outside of teferi) you need at least 4 cards cat, dead-eye navigator and 2xpanharmonicon. This lets you win (assuming you have some other win game combo) with Dovin Baan or Tamiyo (tamyio also needs a creature that can attack). The funny part is that this combo is far worse than Teferi + veil because it needs more specific cards. Teferi veil works with just veil and permanents that tap for enough mana.
Unfortunately I can't think of any planeswalkers that would be suitable for the stax/Paradox Engine build as it currently stands, most of them are too slow for their costs. Karn might be reasonable as catch-all removal, but even then I'm doubtful. However, for less competitive builds of the deck, the rule change is definitely a significant boon, and I would expect some of the planeswalkers mentioned above to be very powerful options.
Cute, illakunsaa. Unnecessary on both comments, but cute.[/sarcasm]
I wasn't even looking at infinites(though as you pointed out, they are possible). For some walkers, one to three extra activations may be all that's needed to 'de-fun' the board state. My overarching intent(lost due to my forgetting the subject at hand, I admit) was refuting the 'PWs are bad' comment, which I still maintain is wrong. Your experience is obviously different...so be it.
I dislike walkers in the game in any case let alone as commanders.
They are objectively and inherently game bendingly powerful (they're mythic for a reason) and to put that in the command zone would be scary. Their range of abilities, difficulty to interact with and reliable access is a cocktail that I hope to not see.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
Gotta agree with Tibalt being a miss. I actually got approved run him as my commander but he never really got anywhere and my throat would hurt at the end of every day because I had to announce my every play in a "Him" from the Power Puff Girls impression.
...That's actually amazing. I wish I could watch you cackle like Him while using Tibalt.
Cute, illakunsaa. Unnecessary on both comments, but cute.[/sarcasm]
I wasn't even looking at infinites(though as you pointed out, they are possible). For some walkers, one to three extra activations may be all that's needed to 'de-fun' the board state. My overarching intent(lost due to my forgetting the subject at hand, I admit) was refuting the 'PWs are bad' comment, which I still maintain is wrong. Your experience is obviously different...so be it.
What are these walkers? Can you give any examples?
especially with them being 'legendary' now, and on a long enough time line as more and more ways to deal with walkers get printed, theres no reason for them not to be.
people cite some like sorin as being op, but they'll be banned like rofellos and braids. problem solved and you open up a slew of new commanders. give it time. it'll happen.
especially with them being 'legendary' now, and on a long enough time line as more and more ways to deal with walkers get printed, theres no reason for them not to be.
people cite some like sorin as being op, but they'll be banned like rofellos and braids. problem solved and you open up a slew of new commanders. give it time. it'll happen.
Considering Sheldon just made this statement last week - "Speaking of planeswalkers, you've probably seen the Ixalan rules changes earlier this week to make them legendary permanents. Although this changes the way PWs will function, it does not change any of the rules of Commander. The only cards which are available to be your commander are legendary creatures or any other card which specifically says that it can be a commander. We were aware the change was coming. As I tweeted, the Commander Rules Committee has recently discussed it and we didn't feel as though a change were warranted." http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35757_Commander-2017-League-First-Look-At-Feline-Ferocity.html
I think it's safe to say it won't be changing soon. Do your research kids before you make kneejerk reactions because of a rules change.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"People are the worst. The worst thing about music is that people play it." - Mike Patton
especially with them being 'legendary' now, and on a long enough time line as more and more ways to deal with walkers get printed, theres no reason for them not to be.
people cite some like sorin as being op, but they'll be banned like rofellos and braids. problem solved and you open up a slew of new commanders. give it time. it'll happen.
Considering Sheldon just made this statement last week - "Speaking of planeswalkers, you've probably seen the Ixalan rules changes earlier this week to make them legendary permanents. Although this changes the way PWs will function, it does not change any of the rules of Commander. The only cards which are available to be your commander are legendary creatures or any other card which specifically says that it can be a commander. We were aware the change was coming. As I tweeted, the Commander Rules Committee has recently discussed it and we didn't feel as though a change were warranted." http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35757_Commander-2017-League-First-Look-At-Feline-Ferocity.html
I think it's safe to say it won't be changing soon. Do your research kids before you make kneejerk reactions because of a rules change.
Could you get more condescending?
The thread is less of a knee jerk and more of a hypothetical scenario. The OP is curious about what the community thinks about that scenario. The change in the planeswalkers simply sparked the thread.
Huh... all of this discussion has me pretty interested. Let's see if I could start a list of commanders that might be really strong (or at least worthy of special note) if allowed...
Chandra, Flamecaller: The only 6-drop planeswalker that can drop 6 points of power right as you play it. The mass damage effect is also really powerful for taking out swarms. The true power, of course, is found in the utility of a commander that repetitively wheels without forcing you to do so (like Arjun). While Mono-Red is pretty weak, the presence of cards like Recoup and Past in Flames might make the wheeling dangerous... especially when paired with a wipe that can completely reset most swarm decks. Chandra, Torch of Defiance: Less powerful than Flamecaller as a commander in my opinion but the sheer versatility of the card is worth tracking. In the name of transparency, however, I am giving extra "points" to any white and/or red planeswalkers that can add mana or grab new cards as using a commander that can help you grab/cast Akroma's Vengeance or Obliterate, survive the devastation, and help you rebuild is worth keeping an eye on. Dack Fayden: To be clear, this isn't an "overpowered" commander. Rather, I fear that allowing its -2 ability as a commander risks making it a very "unfun" commander to play against. Unlike Thada or Daxos, Dack doesn't need to hit anyone to take their stuff. It just takes any rocks that people put out there to speed up your high-cost spells... consequently discouraging players from casting any mana rocks. While a number of commanders slow down the game far more, this isn't a stax effect that targets everyone equally. While Dack is cheap enough to be cast 2-3 times, the capacity for Dack to hamstring a single deck with high mana costs, 3+ colors, or key artiacts (such as equipment or combo pieces) while leaving all other decks completely untouched is... less than fun for your victim. Domri Rade: A simple and straightforward card. The +1 is (conditional) card advantage each turn and it can use your creatures to take down enemies. The combination of gas and kill would probably make this card pretty great in a deck filled with dumb creatures. Might even prove to be a sleeper hit in 1v1 due to its low cost. Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Personally, I think that the impact of this card is a bit overblown. The ultimate is weak, it's a bit on the expensive side for 1v1 (especially without green acceleration), and its plus ability isn't enough to handle any sort of swarm strategy with creatures too small to blow up. With that said, this card isn't quite expensive enough for multiple castings in a multiplayer game to seem "fanciful" and any card that directly opposes the spirit of battlecruiser magic gets a lot of bad press. Garruk Wildspeaker: Listed almost purely for its interactions with Nykthos/Gaea's Cradle (which green can fetch with a number of cards). The mana ramp might be a bit too explosive. The ability to create a nearly cost-efficient (if boring) dude or provide a win condition are just bonuses. Garruk, Caller of Beasts: I don't see any problem with this card right now but things might get iffy if we get enough giant green cards ala worldspine wurm. Just making a note of it. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: That emblem, man. Getting a free and permanent +1/+1 to all of your current and future dudes every time you cast this spell might get a bit oppressive (even though white isn't exactly known for mana acceleration). Jace Beleren: Like Elspeth, I think this card is a bit overblown. You can't really build a (good) deck around this effect, though the cheap cost makes this card pretty attractive as far as card draw commanders go. Jace, the Mind Sculptor: I don't think that this card is a particularly excellent commander (though that -1 might be nasty in 1v1), though it will get a lot of attention because of its reputation. Brainstorm every turn allows you to get some good value from Devastation Tide and Temporal Mastery but this card doesn't do much else on its own. Karn Liberated: Another card that everyone will be watching because of reputation... though I think that it is pretty awful. Compared with eldrazi titans, I don't feel that exiling 6 permanents over the course of a game is worth running a colorless deck. Kiora, Master of the Depths: Legitimately good commander. The plus ability opens possible synergies, the -2 ability can search for combo pieces, and doubling season (or doublefish) allows you to pull off the ultimate instantly. Plus, it's not too expensive to recast in casual games. Liliana Vess: Because the potential to tutor for spells twice in a row and set up a 2-card combo (such as 'mike n' trike') can't be disregarded entirely. Liliana, Death's Majesty: While this card isn't strong in general, it would be noteworthy as one of the cheapest commanders to revive a creature with (for comparison, Balthor & Sheoldred take 7 mana and Chainer takes 8). Doubt it would see much play, but that fact is worth noting. Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker: Would receive attention as they are famous and expensive. Unfortunately, they are a bit too expensive and directionless to make much of a splash. Though access to grixis is good and these cards are versatile, I'd rather build a deck around cards that can be... built around. Nissa, Steward of Elements: It scales nicely with mana acceleration (or scales down with commander tax) and has the potential to dig or throw out a free card each round. Very nice casual commander. Nissa, Vital Force: As a commander, this card has a very real chance of getting two (or even three) emblems in slower games. This capacity makes this card worth keeping an eye on. Nissa, Worldwaker: Not much to say. If you have a single Caged Sun or Extraplanar Lens, Nissa stops "costing 1 mana" and starts "adding 3 mana" the turn you cast it... before adding 8 mana each turn afterwards. Sarkhan Unbroken: +1 is card draw each turn, -2 is (nearly) cost-efficient body (which you can repeat for a "belated" broodmate dragon), and doubling season (or doublefish) enables an ultimate that will likely win you the game outright. Access to three colors is good and this card knows what sort of deck it wants to be in. Sorin Markov: The most obvious ban target for a reason. Nuff said. Tamiyo, Field Researcher: Can't get a solid read on this card. Cheap and three colors is good. An ultimate within doubling season (or doublefish) range that can do a ton of work is awesome. The +1 and -2 abilities, however, are a bit... meandering. Maybe pack the library with cards that trigger when opponent is dealt combat damage? Tezzeret the Seeker: While not as overtly broken as Sorin, this card might also deserve a ban. Search for the chain veil the first time you cast this spell (killing him so you can recast him) and for grim monolith the second time to effectively grant give him "1: add +1 loyalty". This is kind of... yeah. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: Like Karn, this is a relatively directionless commander for a colorless deck. The mass exile (and sparing all of your own permanents), however, makes this card a worthwhile commander in my eyes. That degree of kill, at least in my eyes, is worth the price. I'd even concede to calling it pretty darn strong. Xenagos, the Reveler: Gaea's Cradle as a commander. Green and Red both have the ability to churn out tokens in large numbers. A far cry from Rofellos but still quite strong if properly timed.
TLDR: So that's about 25 of the 87 planeswalkers not currently usable as commanders. Of those, I only really see two of them (Mono-U Tezz and Mono-B Sorin) as banworthy and something like a half-dozen are only listed for the sake of suspected over-hype... in my own opinion, of course.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Plameswalkers as Commanders, can this be a good idea? Ive thought about it for awhile and with Wizards recent change to make Planeswalkers Legendary I could see them perhaps poking the community to see if this would be okay. They have tested the waters with this in the C14 precons (although with additional rules text) and I feel with some proper bans (looking at you Sorin Markov....) this could enable even more crazy and fun EDH decks to be built.
But what is yalls opinion? Would this be too impactful on your meta to have someone play Jace, thr Mind Sculptor or Ugin as generals? Or would it enable more fun strategies that EDH as a casual format is known for?
I am on mobile so it wont allow me to create a poll but please chime in as I want to also see if anyones ever played it as a house rule or something perhaps and how it impacted their games.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I think it's better to leave them out of the commander zone save for the ones specifically designed as such. Too much trouble would be asked by opening those floodgates, even with responsible bannings.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
If I remember, there used to be two ban lists. One was cards you could not run as your Commander. They changed things up and merged the lists to simplify and streamline. Braids, Cabal Minion could definitely be more oppressive as a Mono-B Stax Commander than as a member of the 99, but it's just on the banlist. Cards like Sorin Markov would probably get the same treatment, where they're just straight banned from the format (and while I like Sorin, that might be fair).
All except Teferi started at 3 loyalty and could only activate their -2 once. By only having +2 and -2 abilities, they were hard to kill and re-use again in the same turn. You just have a lot of trouble getting them to 0 loyalty.
Not sure why Teferi worked out differently, though I've never seen someone -1 him 5 turns in a row. I guess they wanted the ultimate to be harder to achieve.
In any case, the knobs are tuned in this way so that you have to use the +2 abilities as often as the -2 abilities in order to keep going. If you've ever played one of these guys, you realize that you alternate between powerful ability and weak ability every turn, unless you go for the ultimate.
Now, imagine Karn Liberated. You cast him, -3. Next turn, -3 (he goes to command zone), you recast him and -3 again. No reason to ever use another ability. You can get multiple activations per turn easily.
I think there are some planeswalkers that are better suited for commanding decks than others. Some just have knobs that are more suited to command zones. Elspeth, Sun's Champion seems fine, for example.
But what are you supposed to do about Garruk, Primal Hunter drawing tons of cards every turn? Even multiple times per turn.
Unilaterally making all planeswalkers playable as commanders is a bad idea to me because it will necessitate bans. I'm not a fan of rules changes that force the banning of multiple cards.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Other Planeswalkers are broken, hit or miss. I'll try to give an example of each.
Miss- Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded. An extreme example but he'll get the point across. He's cheap but that's the nicest thing that can be said about him. His plus gets you a card but can also make you discard it, so really, there's a chance you get nothing from that. His minus is situational and expensive, so that's not much help either. His ult is something you probably never going to get to. While Tibalt's abilities are weak, they are also all over the place. Tibal doesn't give a clear cut direction for a deck and doesn't give you really any advantages to try and form anything meaningful around him.
Hit- Tezzeret the Seeker. Now Tezzeret, could helm a deck. He's got a clear focus on artifacts. His plus is about getting more out of them. His minus tutors for them. His ult can be a win condition under the right circumstances. He's also in U, which cares a lot about artifacts.
Broken- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He comes down and just exiles most of the opponents' fields. That's all he be needed and having that sitting in the command zone, would not make for a healthy game.
I believe that Planeswalkers, if all of them would be allowed to be commanders, would be filtered into the categories. The miss would never be used, the hit would be seen even more than they are now and the broken would be banned. Not too mention, cards like Doubling Season and The Chain Viel would shoot up in price.
The idea has some merit but would have a lot of repercussions and thus, would have to be handled delicately.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Walkers see almost no play because they are pretty bad. Many are restricted in colors so wouldn't be able to do one card combos like the catlady combo from standard.
The main thing is, this opens up plenty of innovative decks that might not have been out there before. If you want to run a UB commander centered around artifacts, you are stuck with Silas Renn (which isn't terrible by any means, but definitely not the best) when you could be running any of the UB Tezz's and get to feel a side that in UB is under represented in EDH IMO. Where is the RW tempo-based control style general in EDH? Would making Ajani Vengeant fill that niche? Play UW with Narset, or Bant with Tamiyo? RB artifacts-matter in Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast?
I guess my main point is that it would open up more strategies in EDH that aren't currently available or viable. I can see the points about certain Planeswalkers being problems, but you couldn't play with Ugin in the command zone before, I don't think giving access to all the other Planeswalkers without Ugin or Sorin would be that much of an issue. I may talk with my playgroup and see if maybe we can take down some data and build proxy decks around some planeswalkers and see how strong they would feel in a normal game of EDH (barring Doubling Season since if this change happens it might have to be banned in EDH, but given that it usually only breaks planeswalkers and there are quite a couple of replacements in EDH for it, I don't think it would cause too much outcry) and see where that gets me.
Don't get me wrong, I had a nasty CoA deck that everyone else hated, so it can definitely suck to play against constant boardwipes, but ugin's power level is no contest compared to a child list. And few people really complain about child in the broad scheme of things.
Realistically, compared to child, ugin sucks. compared to sidisi, liliana sucks. Compared to arcum, tezzeret sucks. There aren't really any pws off the top of my head that are really more problematic than an existing legend. Sorin doesn't really have an obvious analogue in a legend, but he's just not that great of a card except in pretty low-powered groups, so I doubt he'd be a major problem. He can only target one person, he's sitting in the command zone telegraphing his move, etc.
As for whether it'll actually happen, idk. I think it's less than a 50% chance, but it's possible. Could also become another variant (which it sort of already is).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Your bolded comment(bold mine) is MUCH more wrong than right. What I'm assuming you meant to say is "Depending on the deck, planeswalkers can be more bad than good." For instance, consider Captain Sisay. Given the recent rules change, she just got a huge boost in power, and one would be foolish not to at least consider several planeswalkers in a deck helmed by her.
I grant you that PWs don't last long in an EDH game(guess the average lifespan of my Money Jace in my Niv deck? lol), but they often don't need to. Having the ability to cast, and then(assuming no counter) use a game changing ability(which doesn't necessarily need to be an ultimate) can be particularly nasty. Creatures have, on average, one round before they can start changing the game thanks to summoning sickness. Of course there are ways around that, but PWs have no such limitations. Also, let's consider blinking...Banishing Light for example. Sure, this type of combo may go off and be very rare now, but having one piece always available from the CZ? Big changer there...
I hear variations on your bolded comment a lot, but I never see examples. Could you provide any evidence? I think you'd be surprised at what strategies ARE viable even w/o planeswalker commandership.
It's also not uncommon to play a commander just for their colors and nothing else, which is its own level of satisfying: having someone prepare for one thing, only to get blindsided by another tactic, is an underutilized technique. Granted, it may require the use of tutors or draws, but that makes every victory all the more satisfying.
Child also has the disadvantage in needing to hit the GY; which requires more cards to interact in getting it BACK from the GY to do the boardwipe all over again. Ugin has no such limitation, and the mana problem? A minor speed bump in colorless decks.
Further, to address your secondary argument: I think you're looking more at PW ultimates in determining the 'suckage' of said walkers(apologies if I'm wrong). That is a misdirection, as many of the PWs have much more value in their other two/three abilities(which was noted with Ugin). As I said earlier, being able to use Jace's -1 ability exclusively is pretty powerful in certain decks, PARTICULARLY for blue. Getting ETB triggers from Garruk's beast tokens can also be powerful, especially since green LOVES more creatures.
Not every PW would warp the format(Tibalt won't even give the radar a blip), but repeated +/- abilities on demand could be something bad. Part of the balance of PWs(bad balance at times, admittedly) is using the +s and -s to keep using your preferred one. Take out the balance, and...*shrug*
Overall, I think this would be a bad idea; as was said, the PWs from Commander 2014 were DESIGNED for the format. Throwing in all the other planeswalkers 'just cuz' would do more harm than good. I'd be happy to be wrong...but I don't think I would be.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
I think you underestimate Ugin a little, He has 2 real big advantages over Child, he can go back to the command zone and wipe the field at the same time and he won't hit any of the permanents he would play.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
There's also the fact that Ugin is quite a bit more precise than Child. The situation he comes into may not require him to use all of his loyalty and still destroy most board states. That opens up other possibilities for him as he now has breathing room to build himself back up to either do it again or even eventually ult and have his player pull even further ahead. That last possibility is a little unlikely, but the fact that Ugin has few different possible scenarios that he can more readily create and/or get into shows that he's more of an asset than the Child.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
Definitely in 1v1 Child would wreck ugin horribly (child probably doesn't even play anything for ugin to kill), although that's probably not the best metric.
I think you underestimate the difficultly in generating the mana to play ugin, especially if he gets wiped. Kozilek draws into more ramp, which is why he's so easy to replay. If Ugin is dying repeatedly, without the draw power of Koz I don't think he'll recover easily, and he has almost zero chance of recovering from any artifact wipe.
Ignoring the color issue, I'd probably say ugin is better in a vacuum, but it's absolutely ludicrous to think that the difference between the two is greater than the difference between being able to play ANY CARD IN THE FORMAT instead of a very small percentage of them.
I will say that Ugin is more LIKELY to be "unfun", especially in low-powered groups, because he's ALWAYS going to gravitate towards wiping the field, because that's kind of what he does, and he doesn't have any disadvantage to you when he does it, so you're always going to do it. I see a lot of child lists that play child as sort of a backup plan and don't pack the powerful recursion pieces or the tutors to find them, and play a bunch of permanents, and thus would be demotivated from wiping the board with child turn after turn. So compared to those lists, maybe Ugin is a bigger problem. But in terms of power IF you're building to wipe the board repeatedly, child is better by a mile. You get counterspells, you get landwipes (oh hi global ruin), you get recursion, you get land ramp, you get the ability to interact at instant speed to stop combos and whatnot...it's really not a contest.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
At least when I made my post I went to the gatherer, looked at possible cards and then tried to make an informed opinion. You clearly didn't.
Planeswalkers are bad period. Planeswalkers are priced based on the fact that you can slowly take over the game but in edh it's really hard to take over the with a permanent that is really easy to interact with. Outside of specific plays it's near impossible.
I guess you can like wipe the board with Elspeth, Sun's Champion then blink her with Felidar guardian and get three 1/1s for mere 10 mana. Which is almost a playable strategy.
To go infinite with planeswalker activations (outside of teferi) you need at least 4 cards cat, dead-eye navigator and 2x panharmonicon. This lets you win (assuming you have some other win game combo) with Dovin Baan or Tamiyo (tamyio also needs a creature that can attack). The funny part is that this combo is far worse than Teferi + veil because it needs more specific cards. Teferi veil works with just veil and permanents that tap for enough mana.
[spoiler=random quote] [/apoiler]
I wasn't even looking at infinites(though as you pointed out, they are possible). For some walkers, one to three extra activations may be all that's needed to 'de-fun' the board state. My overarching intent(lost due to my forgetting the subject at hand, I admit) was refuting the 'PWs are bad' comment, which I still maintain is wrong. Your experience is obviously different...so be it.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
They are objectively and inherently game bendingly powerful (they're mythic for a reason) and to put that in the command zone would be scary. Their range of abilities, difficulty to interact with and reliable access is a cocktail that I hope to not see.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
...That's actually amazing. I wish I could watch you cackle like Him while using Tibalt.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
What are these walkers? Can you give any examples?
especially with them being 'legendary' now, and on a long enough time line as more and more ways to deal with walkers get printed, theres no reason for them not to be.
people cite some like sorin as being op, but they'll be banned like rofellos and braids. problem solved and you open up a slew of new commanders. give it time. it'll happen.
Considering Sheldon just made this statement last week - "Speaking of planeswalkers, you've probably seen the Ixalan rules changes earlier this week to make them legendary permanents. Although this changes the way PWs will function, it does not change any of the rules of Commander. The only cards which are available to be your commander are legendary creatures or any other card which specifically says that it can be a commander. We were aware the change was coming. As I tweeted, the Commander Rules Committee has recently discussed it and we didn't feel as though a change were warranted." http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35757_Commander-2017-League-First-Look-At-Feline-Ferocity.html
I think it's safe to say it won't be changing soon. Do your research kids before you make kneejerk reactions because of a rules change.
Could you get more condescending?
The thread is less of a knee jerk and more of a hypothetical scenario. The OP is curious about what the community thinks about that scenario. The change in the planeswalkers simply sparked the thread.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
Chandra, Torch of Defiance: Less powerful than Flamecaller as a commander in my opinion but the sheer versatility of the card is worth tracking. In the name of transparency, however, I am giving extra "points" to any white and/or red planeswalkers that can add mana or grab new cards as using a commander that can help you grab/cast Akroma's Vengeance or Obliterate, survive the devastation, and help you rebuild is worth keeping an eye on.
Dack Fayden: To be clear, this isn't an "overpowered" commander. Rather, I fear that allowing its -2 ability as a commander risks making it a very "unfun" commander to play against. Unlike Thada or Daxos, Dack doesn't need to hit anyone to take their stuff. It just takes any rocks that people put out there to speed up your high-cost spells... consequently discouraging players from casting any mana rocks. While a number of commanders slow down the game far more, this isn't a stax effect that targets everyone equally. While Dack is cheap enough to be cast 2-3 times, the capacity for Dack to hamstring a single deck with high mana costs, 3+ colors, or key artiacts (such as equipment or combo pieces) while leaving all other decks completely untouched is... less than fun for your victim.
Domri Rade: A simple and straightforward card. The +1 is (conditional) card advantage each turn and it can use your creatures to take down enemies. The combination of gas and kill would probably make this card pretty great in a deck filled with dumb creatures. Might even prove to be a sleeper hit in 1v1 due to its low cost.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Personally, I think that the impact of this card is a bit overblown. The ultimate is weak, it's a bit on the expensive side for 1v1 (especially without green acceleration), and its plus ability isn't enough to handle any sort of swarm strategy with creatures too small to blow up. With that said, this card isn't quite expensive enough for multiple castings in a multiplayer game to seem "fanciful" and any card that directly opposes the spirit of battlecruiser magic gets a lot of bad press.
Garruk Wildspeaker: Listed almost purely for its interactions with Nykthos/Gaea's Cradle (which green can fetch with a number of cards). The mana ramp might be a bit too explosive. The ability to create a nearly cost-efficient (if boring) dude or provide a win condition are just bonuses.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts: I don't see any problem with this card right now but things might get iffy if we get enough giant green cards ala worldspine wurm. Just making a note of it.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: That emblem, man. Getting a free and permanent +1/+1 to all of your current and future dudes every time you cast this spell might get a bit oppressive (even though white isn't exactly known for mana acceleration).
Jace Beleren: Like Elspeth, I think this card is a bit overblown. You can't really build a (good) deck around this effect, though the cheap cost makes this card pretty attractive as far as card draw commanders go.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: I don't think that this card is a particularly excellent commander (though that -1 might be nasty in 1v1), though it will get a lot of attention because of its reputation. Brainstorm every turn allows you to get some good value from Devastation Tide and Temporal Mastery but this card doesn't do much else on its own.
Karn Liberated: Another card that everyone will be watching because of reputation... though I think that it is pretty awful. Compared with eldrazi titans, I don't feel that exiling 6 permanents over the course of a game is worth running a colorless deck.
Kiora, Master of the Depths: Legitimately good commander. The plus ability opens possible synergies, the -2 ability can search for combo pieces, and doubling season (or doublefish) allows you to pull off the ultimate instantly. Plus, it's not too expensive to recast in casual games.
Liliana Vess: Because the potential to tutor for spells twice in a row and set up a 2-card combo (such as 'mike n' trike') can't be disregarded entirely.
Liliana, Death's Majesty: While this card isn't strong in general, it would be noteworthy as one of the cheapest commanders to revive a creature with (for comparison, Balthor & Sheoldred take 7 mana and Chainer takes 8). Doubt it would see much play, but that fact is worth noting.
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker: Would receive attention as they are famous and expensive. Unfortunately, they are a bit too expensive and directionless to make much of a splash. Though access to grixis is good and these cards are versatile, I'd rather build a deck around cards that can be... built around.
Nissa, Steward of Elements: It scales nicely with mana acceleration (or scales down with commander tax) and has the potential to dig or throw out a free card each round. Very nice casual commander.
Nissa, Vital Force: As a commander, this card has a very real chance of getting two (or even three) emblems in slower games. This capacity makes this card worth keeping an eye on.
Nissa, Worldwaker: Not much to say. If you have a single Caged Sun or Extraplanar Lens, Nissa stops "costing 1 mana" and starts "adding 3 mana" the turn you cast it... before adding 8 mana each turn afterwards.
Sarkhan Unbroken: +1 is card draw each turn, -2 is (nearly) cost-efficient body (which you can repeat for a "belated" broodmate dragon), and doubling season (or doublefish) enables an ultimate that will likely win you the game outright. Access to three colors is good and this card knows what sort of deck it wants to be in.
Sorin Markov: The most obvious ban target for a reason. Nuff said.
Tamiyo, Field Researcher: Can't get a solid read on this card. Cheap and three colors is good. An ultimate within doubling season (or doublefish) range that can do a ton of work is awesome. The +1 and -2 abilities, however, are a bit... meandering. Maybe pack the library with cards that trigger when opponent is dealt combat damage?
Tezzeret the Seeker: While not as overtly broken as Sorin, this card might also deserve a ban. Search for the chain veil the first time you cast this spell (killing him so you can recast him) and for grim monolith the second time to effectively grant give him "1: add +1 loyalty". This is kind of... yeah.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: Like Karn, this is a relatively directionless commander for a colorless deck. The mass exile (and sparing all of your own permanents), however, makes this card a worthwhile commander in my eyes. That degree of kill, at least in my eyes, is worth the price. I'd even concede to calling it pretty darn strong.
Xenagos, the Reveler: Gaea's Cradle as a commander. Green and Red both have the ability to churn out tokens in large numbers. A far cry from Rofellos but still quite strong if properly timed.
TLDR: So that's about 25 of the 87 planeswalkers not currently usable as commanders. Of those, I only really see two of them (Mono-U Tezz and Mono-B Sorin) as banworthy and something like a half-dozen are only listed for the sake of suspected over-hype... in my own opinion, of course.