What are the mistakes you made in EDH that made you learn? For me, I was playing Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck. I asked my opponent whether he has fliers to block my fliers. He said no. I whacked all with my fliers. He blocks with a reach creature. Lost an attacker. So, from then onwards, I ask my opponents 'Do you have fliers AND reach?' Never got into the problem again.
What about you?
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
What are the mistakes you made in EDH that made you learn? For me, I was playing Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck. I asked my opponent whether he has fliers to block my fliers. He said no. I whacked all with my fliers. He blocks with a reach creature. Lost an attacker. So, from then onwards, I ask my opponents 'Do you have fliers AND reach?' Never got into the problem again.
What about you?
It seems like he's not a friendly player, the right term for such a player would get me Mods attention. But still why would someone do such a thing to deceive the opponent? Was it during a tournament?
Answering your question: I learned to never underestimate Krenko, mob boss even when he is in the command zone, he closed a 4 players game in the 5 turn! That's wrong! Never underestimate mono-red again!
What deception? It's not like the cards are face down.
For me, it was early in my time playing Commander. I tried playing politics with Hunted Troll, Forbidden Orchard, that sort of thing. I got my ass handed to me.
Never give your opponent something without strings attached!
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I learned that i needed to play more competitive decks if I wanted to win some games.
My friends have learned that letting me live can mean a game loss with how fast I can come back with some of my decks. Hanging on with two life could be all I need to steal a win.
This is an interesting topic of discussion, so I figured I would throw my two cents in.
I have been playing EDH for over 6 years now. I started by building a netdecked Karador deck that I had no idea how to properly pilot. In my first games with it, I realized my threat assessment was abysmal. That is, I would just attack a random player (usually someone I knew) or blow up something that player controlled without concern for the board state as a whole. It caused a bit of grief and lost games that I could have helped stop if I was paying attention.
Overall, EDH taught me how to play control. When I started, I was dead set against playing any type of Blue decks because it wasn't something I felt confident in piloting in a multiplayer setting. This probably falls into the poor threat assessment above, but I never really knew what to counter. As I started playing more often, I really got into playing blue after building a mono blue Venser or Teferi deck (I forget which). It quickly changed to Thassa and I slowly stated becoming better at playing the control role. I have found that I rarely lose with either of my control based EDH decks and led me to choosing control as my archetype of choice in Modern and Standard (though I only play Standard if Modern doesn't fire).
1) Asking about permanents
"What enchantments/artifacts/non-basics do you have?" "Do you have any artifacts?" The moment you drop that question, your enemy knows you have removal of that type. I used to do this, and people in my group still do this. Instead try remembering everything that plays, and ask specifically "what's that card?" or "can I see that?"
2) Killing people fast isn't always the right answer
When you're in a position to kill some players and begin evaluating threats, ask yourself if you can 1v1 whoever is left. Some decks thrive in the 1v1, and often they're decks with very little board presence. The voltron deck with 1 critter and the control deck with even less are dangerous opponents in the end game. Sometimes you want to let the game drag on, let resources dwindle, and learn the right timings to kill people. Often times that voltron deck will sputter out mid-game if you play defensively, and politicking frustrated Timmies against the control player can disrupt them greatly. Or you could just play combos and kill everyone at once.
3) Read the cards.
There's so much obscurity and variation in non-evergreen mechanics that you'll never remember them all. "Oh does that token die at end step or end of turn? Does it exile or sac?" etc...
Don't hold the win over someone's head but refuse to pull the trigger. If you have the combo on board, just do it -- opting out cheapens the experience for everyone else. I did this once and got a swift rebuke.
This is not necessarily contradictory to ClockCode's #2 of Killing people fast isn't always the right answer, but sometimes a corollary:
1) Look for the kill
This often has to do with threat assessment, but also can have a lot to do with awareness of the resources and interactions available to yourself and to your opponents. It can tell you a lot about how your opponents think if they forget about things available to them. In my group, utility lands like Rogue's Passage and Vault of the Archangel still surprise some of them because they often just get tapped for C for a few turns until the effect is necessary.
The game that sticks out to me as one of the important iterations on this lesson for me was Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (me) vs Polukranos, World Eater vs Commander Eesha vs Heartless Hidetsugu. Heartless came out rather early with haste and took half of everybody's life. He was quickly destroyed. The rest of the game was pretty much Ruric Thar vs Polukranos with Eesha calmly letting us vie for power. At one point the Polukranos pilot cast Tempt with Discovery, and I took the temptation to get Kessig Wolf Run. The fatal error came the turn after that when I decided to hit him for some damage (Polukranos was not on the battlefield at the time) and cast Knollspine Dragon to draw cards to dig for options. His next turn he cast Polukranos, gave it haste, trample, Monstrosity, and I couldn't soak enough damage to stay alive. Then Eesha killed him with several birds and pouring a bunch of mana into a Mirror Entity they'd been keeping in their hand. After the game he pointed out to me that he though I had him when I chose the Wolf Run. If I'd just sunk all my mana into that I'd have been able to knock him out of the game.
2) Patiently waiting to explode
Another important lesson, even from the above game, is to watch out for the Gray Man. Is there a player that has managed to appear non-threatening while everybody else is busy trying to take each other out? A corollary of this, I guess, is Don't stick your neck out too soon.
3) All slivers must die
I shouldn't even need to expand upon this, but I guess it needs to be said. In almost every game I've been in with a Sliver deck, other players see the first 1-3 slivers in play and say, "Those aren't that bad." Then a couple more slivers come down and now there's a small army we can't touch because they have hexproof or indestructible or whatever. The worst evaluation was a game when the player had 6+ slivers on the battlefield including Shadow Sliver, but everybody else evaluated this state as harmless because of Dormant Sliver. Well here comes Necrotic Sliver, and Dormant Sliver gets sacrificed to destroy your Ghostly Prison. Have fun blocking dying.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."
On subject of lyonhaert's point 3, a friend of mine has a sliver deck that he plays, EXPECTING to get killed. It's not T1 tuned, but as you say: just a few slivers on board will ruin your game. I actually stayed in a game for a while because I played Elesh Norn before he got his huge buffs in play, keeping him in check.
Just because you can play it, doesn't mean you should
Let me explain: a guy who regularly plays with us plays substandard decks for funsies. He thinks nothing of playing Ray of Erasure on someone Turn 1(negligible), or Smallpox Turn 2/3(hitting and mana screwing a lot of the table). He admitted that there was no threat at the table, he just wanted to play the card. Guess who ended up being target #1 for that game? I think it's fair to admit that this usually applies to early game stuffs, when people don't have threats to speak of(not you, slivers).
Just because you can play it, doesn't mean you should
Let me explain: a guy who regularly plays with us plays substandard decks for funsies. He thinks nothing of playing Ray of Erasure on someone Turn 1(negligible), or Smallpox Turn 2/3(hitting and mana screwing a lot of the table). He admitted that there was no threat at the table, he just wanted to play the card. Guess who ended up being target #1 for that game? I think it's fair to admit that this usually applies to early game stuffs, when people don't have threats to speak of(not you, slivers).
That's a good lesson. At that point he's as good as a chaos deck who's just going to wreak havoc on the game with no wincon. I also have a friend running an Oloro deck based on discard. They're trying to learn control, but they have a long way to go. In a three-way between them, whatever I'm playing, and a graveyard deck, for example, they'll sometimes aim a couple discard spells at me when the graveyard player is the threat because they don't want to make the graveyard deck discard but didn't have anything else to do that turn. I have literally face-palmed over them choosing for me to discard an answer card to a problem our common opponent controlled.
My biggest epiphany came in the process by which I created my Kokusho deck; 3 opponents must be taken out as 1, by far my Kokusho deck abuses this principle the most, seeking to simultaneously kill all opponents. From that point I started to win a lot more in my playgroup, my opponents often deal with one player at a time, while I would just race to get them all at once.
Another big mistake I've made is over-sharing in attempts to work with opponents to overcome a greater threat. I'd love to use my Austere Command to reset the bird and stave off a win, but I'd much rather someone else burn at least their own Austere Command and potentially a Tutor. No matter what the current boardstate is, everyone is always your opponent, they just not be a major threat at all times.
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EDH Pantheon UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare WBG Karador, the Bridge Between WU Grand Warden Augustin IV RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening BG Nath Addict UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame B Kokusho, the Mourning Star U Memnarch is All
I learned not to Gamble for a turn 3 Purphoros, God of the Forge in my Norin the Wary without ample token generation. Pinging everyone for 2-6 a round causes everyone to beat you into submission and die.
3) All slivers must die
I shouldn't even need to expand upon this, but I guess it needs to be said. In almost every game I've been in with a Sliver deck, other players see the first 1-3 slivers in play and say, "Those aren't that bad." Then a couple more slivers come down and now there's a small army we can't touch because they have hexproof or indestructible or whatever. The worst evaluation was a game when the player had 6+ slivers on the battlefield including Shadow Sliver, but everybody else evaluated this state as harmless because of Dormant Sliver. Well here comes Necrotic Sliver, and Dormant Sliver gets sacrificed to destroy your Ghostly Prison. Have fun blocking dying.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure."
— Ellen Ripley
I try to kill the Sliver player. I even try to get the others to kill them. However Slivers are just so cute and adorable that they leave them alone. My only wish is that I had enough money to build an Optimal mana base for a sliver deck.
They need to bring slivers back to standard so we can have even more slivers......
Death triggers. They're pretty easy to remember, but I used to have trouble remembering all the on-death triggers that happen in EDH. My best example was a long time ago, I was playing my Lord of Tresserhorn deck, and I had out a Blood Artist and some other creatures. My opponents had pretty significant board states of their own. I was so excited to hardcast a Decree of Pain to draw all those cards that I forgot about resolving the 15 or so Blood Artist triggers that would have killed the Sharuum the Hegemon player, who combo'd out the next turn while at low life.
Never sacrifice function for theme. I spent good money on two really tight themes to find out that they were not sound enough, and edh is not warm and fuzzy enough to get away with that. They predictably fell flat on their faces. Now I only spend money on edh decks that have an acceptable level of removal, draw, ramp, and other key functional requirements. THEN I put as much theme in as I can cram into remaining slots.
I remember I was playing a 5 way EDH game back when I had really just started. We had a guy who had just bought the Mind Seize precon and had Thraximundar as his general. I was playing a modified but not fully optimized Prossh, Skyraider of Kher. Eventually, one player was killed by my opponents and I killed two more. All that was left was the Thrax player, who we had kind of left alone as he was newer and his deck really wasn't at our level. We all went easy on him and I underestimated him. Next thing I know, when it's just him and me, I'm stuck on the defensive, resources exhausted from dealing with everyone else and scrambling to put up some kind of defense while trying to kill him before he kills me. Needless to say, I lost even if it was close. That game taught me so many things that I took to heart:
1. Every player is a threat. Just because their deck is weaker than your's doesn't mean that they can't bring you down.
2. My deck needed more work. It needed more wincons, it needed to be able to hit everyone and it needed to be more efficient. This is an attitude I take with my decks now. I try to bring out the deck's full potential, whatever that may be.
3. Keep your eyes on what everyone is doing. Just because they're not a threat now, doesn't mean they won't turn into one later. A few cards thrown the Thrax player's way would have helped me.
4. Having cards to be able to reuse things are always worth considering. Even if a card is really good, being able to only use it once does not compare to being able to use it twice or more.
What about you?
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Answering your question: I learned to never underestimate Krenko, mob boss even when he is in the command zone, he closed a 4 players game in the 5 turn! That's wrong! Never underestimate mono-red again!
Modern: UB Zombie hunt UB - WR Boros tokens WR - BGW Treefolk tribal BGW
Commander: UR Mizzix, a Storm of spells UR (Decklist)
For me, it was early in my time playing Commander. I tried playing politics with Hunted Troll, Forbidden Orchard, that sort of thing. I got my ass handed to me.
Never give your opponent something without strings attached!
On phasing:
My friends have learned that letting me live can mean a game loss with how fast I can come back with some of my decks. Hanging on with two life could be all I need to steal a win.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I have been playing EDH for over 6 years now. I started by building a netdecked Karador deck that I had no idea how to properly pilot. In my first games with it, I realized my threat assessment was abysmal. That is, I would just attack a random player (usually someone I knew) or blow up something that player controlled without concern for the board state as a whole. It caused a bit of grief and lost games that I could have helped stop if I was paying attention.
Overall, EDH taught me how to play control. When I started, I was dead set against playing any type of Blue decks because it wasn't something I felt confident in piloting in a multiplayer setting. This probably falls into the poor threat assessment above, but I never really knew what to counter. As I started playing more often, I really got into playing blue after building a mono blue Venser or Teferi deck (I forget which). It quickly changed to Thassa and I slowly stated becoming better at playing the control role. I have found that I rarely lose with either of my control based EDH decks and led me to choosing control as my archetype of choice in Modern and Standard (though I only play Standard if Modern doesn't fire).
"What enchantments/artifacts/non-basics do you have?" "Do you have any artifacts?" The moment you drop that question, your enemy knows you have removal of that type. I used to do this, and people in my group still do this. Instead try remembering everything that plays, and ask specifically "what's that card?" or "can I see that?"
2) Killing people fast isn't always the right answer
When you're in a position to kill some players and begin evaluating threats, ask yourself if you can 1v1 whoever is left. Some decks thrive in the 1v1, and often they're decks with very little board presence. The voltron deck with 1 critter and the control deck with even less are dangerous opponents in the end game. Sometimes you want to let the game drag on, let resources dwindle, and learn the right timings to kill people. Often times that voltron deck will sputter out mid-game if you play defensively, and politicking frustrated Timmies against the control player can disrupt them greatly. Or you could just play combos and kill everyone at once.
3) Read the cards.
There's so much obscurity and variation in non-evergreen mechanics that you'll never remember them all. "Oh does that token die at end step or end of turn? Does it exile or sac?" etc...
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
1) Look for the kill
This often has to do with threat assessment, but also can have a lot to do with awareness of the resources and interactions available to yourself and to your opponents. It can tell you a lot about how your opponents think if they forget about things available to them. In my group, utility lands like Rogue's Passage and Vault of the Archangel still surprise some of them because they often just get tapped for C for a few turns until the effect is necessary.
The game that sticks out to me as one of the important iterations on this lesson for me was Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (me) vs Polukranos, World Eater vs Commander Eesha vs Heartless Hidetsugu. Heartless came out rather early with haste and took half of everybody's life. He was quickly destroyed. The rest of the game was pretty much Ruric Thar vs Polukranos with Eesha calmly letting us vie for power. At one point the Polukranos pilot cast Tempt with Discovery, and I took the temptation to get Kessig Wolf Run. The fatal error came the turn after that when I decided to hit him for some damage (Polukranos was not on the battlefield at the time) and cast Knollspine Dragon to draw cards to dig for options. His next turn he cast Polukranos, gave it haste, trample, Monstrosity, and I couldn't soak enough damage to stay alive. Then Eesha killed him with several birds and pouring a bunch of mana into a Mirror Entity they'd been keeping in their hand. After the game he pointed out to me that he though I had him when I chose the Wolf Run. If I'd just sunk all my mana into that I'd have been able to knock him out of the game.
2) Patiently waiting to explode
Another important lesson, even from the above game, is to watch out for the Gray Man. Is there a player that has managed to appear non-threatening while everybody else is busy trying to take each other out? A corollary of this, I guess, is Don't stick your neck out too soon.
3) All slivers must die
I shouldn't even need to expand upon this, but I guess it needs to be said. In almost every game I've been in with a Sliver deck, other players see the first 1-3 slivers in play and say, "Those aren't that bad." Then a couple more slivers come down and now there's a small army we can't touch because they have hexproof or indestructible or whatever. The worst evaluation was a game when the player had 6+ slivers on the battlefield including Shadow Sliver, but everybody else evaluated this state as harmless because of Dormant Sliver. Well here comes Necrotic Sliver, and Dormant Sliver gets sacrificed to destroy your Ghostly Prison. Have fun
blockingdying.old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Just because you can play it, doesn't mean you should
Let me explain: a guy who regularly plays with us plays substandard decks for funsies. He thinks nothing of playing Ray of Erasure on someone Turn 1(negligible), or Smallpox Turn 2/3(hitting and mana screwing a lot of the table). He admitted that there was no threat at the table, he just wanted to play the card. Guess who ended up being target #1 for that game? I think it's fair to admit that this usually applies to early game stuffs, when people don't have threats to speak of(not you, slivers).
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Another big mistake I've made is over-sharing in attempts to work with opponents to overcome a greater threat. I'd love to use my Austere Command to reset the bird and stave off a win, but I'd much rather someone else burn at least their own Austere Command and potentially a Tutor. No matter what the current boardstate is, everyone is always your opponent, they just not be a major threat at all times.
UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm
WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse
UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare
WBG Karador, the Bridge Between
WU Grand Warden Augustin IV
RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening
BG Nath Addict
UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame
B Kokusho, the Mourning Star
U Memnarch is All
BWREDGAR MARKOV VAMPIRESBWR
I try to kill the Sliver player. I even try to get the others to kill them. However Slivers are just so cute and adorable that they leave them alone. My only wish is that I had enough money to build an Optimal mana base for a sliver deck.
They need to bring slivers back to standard so we can have even more slivers......
BWREDGAR MARKOV VAMPIRESBWR
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebears1. Every player is a threat. Just because their deck is weaker than your's doesn't mean that they can't bring you down.
2. My deck needed more work. It needed more wincons, it needed to be able to hit everyone and it needed to be more efficient. This is an attitude I take with my decks now. I try to bring out the deck's full potential, whatever that may be.
3. Keep your eyes on what everyone is doing. Just because they're not a threat now, doesn't mean they won't turn into one later. A few cards thrown the Thrax player's way would have helped me.
4. Having cards to be able to reuse things are always worth considering. Even if a card is really good, being able to only use it once does not compare to being able to use it twice or more.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Even then, things that boost you way up creates envy in others players.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.