I have a B/W Vampires deck that I made in around 2014 or so. I've played it from time to time, but not really looked at it in depth. Yesterday I got the Vampires precon, with the idea I'd add red for Edgar. this lead to me obviously really looking at the deck I had, and realizing I had TONS of removal. 8 kill spells of various sorts, and 7 board wipes. In a deck that wasn't built as a control deck, that seems like a lot. I'm curious as to others thoughts.
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Decks:
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
It always varies for the deck's individual theme for me, but I tend to run heavy removal, usually 12-18 spells total including spot removal, board wipes and unconventional things like No Mercy. My playgroup often laments attacking me knowing I usually have something in my hand to piss then off.
I know I go heavy handed, I believe my Kaalia and Karador decks have he most removal, while my Yidris has the least. Obviously it depends on your meta and the deck itself, but I usually start at 10 targeted/single removal spells, and 4-5 boardwipes, and appropriately whittle them down from there.
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EDH Pantheon UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare WBG Karador, the Bridge Between WU Grand Warden Augustin IV RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening BG Nath Addict UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame B Kokusho, the Mourning Star U Memnarch is All
Basically you have to win the game at some point and if drawing removal is preventing you from furthering your game plan that is too many.
I find that, unless you are a combo deck, you don't want the game to get super late because then the battlecruisers come out and the huge recursion spells and it just becomes pretty much impossible to control. "fair" control decks really want to play tempoish. Typical play pattern is reset (wrath), threat, protect. don't play additional threats until the first is dealt with to keep more resources for the next reset.
Combo decks are different or commander reliant decks, since you always have access to them perhaps can pack more but then you need ramp to pay the tax etc. Basically the number is all about how easy it is for you to win or find your win.
Basically, this. I prefer to err on the side of caution. (This also applies to mana and card draw. I remember when the first Commander product came out and people thought I was "weird" for dedicating half my Ghave to mana.) And I must emphasize the importance of instant-speed removal.
And may I remind people, if you're in blue, run counterspells. Hell, you'd be surprised how many times a simple Daze or Mana Leak has screwed my opponents over.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So my most successful decks run 19 (Thrun) and 24 (Akroma) control spells. Control as defined as purely added to stopping my opponents from doing what they want. My count might be a bit off for both of them, but it appears I include about 1/5 - 1/4 of my deck to interacting with my opponents. I'm not saying it's the correct way to play but I have found in order for myself to play the way I like (Battle crusier, Aggro, etc.) I just inherently add this much control. I can see other decks with more focused win conditions running more control, and decks that run more draw/tutor to run less.
The "there's no such thing as too much" comment is pretty on point, I'd say. Followed by, of course, so long as you don't have so much, it's an actual detriment to you winning the game.
I'd say I have an average of 8-15 in each of my decks, give or take (Counterspells, Single-target removal, and board wipes being general "removal"). Depends on my focus in the deck, but my meta isn't super competitive, so there's no need for an overabundance. It's just how we like to play.
And may I remind people, if you're in blue, run counterspells. Hell, you'd be surprised how many times a simple Daze or Mana Leak has screwed my opponents over.
Maaannnn. way more people need to learn to respect the Daze. As much as they should respect the Bolt. Would save them so many embarrassing "oops" situations.
I only run a handful in my Hanna deck, and generally hide behind Ensnaring Bridge and Solemnity Shenanigans until I draw into Painter's/Grindstone or Helm/Rest in Peace or something. I run a bunch of draw and tutors to get me into my zone, with Plow, Path, Supreme Verdict, Blessed Alliance, Soul Snare, Aether Spellbomb, Sunbeam Spellbomb (surprisingly relevant to gain some time), PEndrell Mists, etc. In regular commander I tend to run a lot more, because there are 3 people to deal with.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
In GAAIV I've got a pretty balanced suite. After experimentation the numbers seem to play pretty well while still letting me proactively be working towards a win.
5 counterspells
2 targeted creature only removal
2 Arifact/enchantment removal (huge preference for being able to hit both where possible)
1 remove any permanent
4 wipes (3 creature killers and a Cyclonic Rift)
1 Bounce
1 Control Magic effect
In Ghave the combolicious there is
1 wipe (Pernicious Deed)
2 targeted creature only removal with a third (Abzan Charm) that is versatile for different situations
3 Arifact/enchantment removal (huge preference for being able to hit both where possible)
2 remove any permanent
Ghave is more proactive, has more fast mana, and tries to play the game over a shorter time frame. It also has a Defense Grid and an Imp's Mischief to try and force the combos through early.
The faster I want to go the less the removal I pack.
It depends how broken you are willing to go with your win conditions.
If your win conditions are combos, you can run tons and tons and tons of removal, because your win requires so few card slots.
If you are running something like dragons and using the combat phase to win, you will have to cut out a bunch of removal to actually be able to win the game. Usually you'd run card draw in its place to rebuild after your board is killed.
It's all fun and cute to talk about 20-50 removal spells but OP is talking about a tribal deck. Tribal aggro doesn't run as many removal spells. Generally, for tribal my removal suite goes like this:
- Run as many creatures as you can within the tribe that double as removal if they're available. In Vampires this means cards like Guul Draz Assassin, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Olivia Voldaren, Patron of the Vein and Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter.
- Run a few emergency board wipes. Sometimes you get outswarmed and the board needs nuked. You won't need many, just a few of the best ones should suffice.
- Finally, a few spot removal cards which will allow you to break through problematic cards. Things like Elesh Norn, Avacyn, you'll want to immediately get rid of those, preferably through exile, though Chaos Warp is acceptable. These cards should never run above 3 mana unless they do something special, and are preferably instant speed.
That should round off your suite quite well. You might still approach the raw numbers you had in your previous build, but the distribution might be different. Of course, what also matters is your local meta. If you run into a lot of Elesh Norns you'll want more spot removal, of course.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
You know I think it depends on deck type. I probably don't rate much in this discussion being a agro player but I recent had to drop enchantments, 3 of them just for more removal. Im sitting at both sorcery and instants at around 15-20. May not seem much but I really just want stuff off the table to push through with my "zoo".
In the decks that I currently run all the time, this is how many "removal" spells I run in each. Note that I am counting bounce spells, counters, creature removal, artifact/enchantment removal, stealing stuff, etc. but not graveyard removal, discard, annihilator, land-based removal, or land destruction.
So I'm kind of all over the place when it comes to how much removal I run, but a few patterns emerge that I wasn't really cognizant of before; 1) my GWx decks all seem to run less removal than other color combinations, 2) when I can recur my removal I tend to run less, and 3) I try to play as much unconditional and universal removal as I can, but where my removal options are specific I tend to run more, and 4) the amount of mass removal seems to not have an effect on the total number of removal cards.
You should also consider your playgroup. You'll never be able to run enough removal to deal with every threat produced in a multiplayer game, but where you can't deal with something, someone else probably can. However, this concept falls flat when everyone gains the same mentality, "I don't need to run removal, everyone else will remove the big threats!"
Each deck will have their ideal balance of removal and advancement cards, that is the balance between disrupting your opponent's strategies and advancing your own. In general, each of my decks running blue, black or white tend to have a strategy that benefits from higher levels of removal, while those that are predominantly green or red are more inclined to focus of their own advancement.
No matter the colours or strategy, I always run a minimum of 10 removal spells:
5x Any removal (preferably nonland permanent removal, or counterspells, or boardwipes)
1x Creature specific removal
1x Artifact/Enchantment specific removal
1x Indestructible removal (exile, bounce to hand/library)
1x Hexproof removal (non-targeted removal, usually another boardwipe)
1x Mass removal (boardwipe)
And may I remind people, if you're in blue, run counterspells. Hell, you'd be surprised how many times a simple Daze or Mana Leak has screwed my opponents over.
Maaannnn. way more people need to learn to respect the Daze. As much as they should respect the Bolt. Would save them so many embarrassing "oops" situations.
The kicker: I was playing Derevi, so you know: Winter Orb, Hokori, Dust Drinker, Rising Waters. Which means all those Force Spike variants are effectively hard counters if you're impatient, and "bounce an island" is less a cost than an added bonus.
And absolutely when running removal, divide your removal into
The last category is the least useful (unless it's also a cheap instant that hits a lot), but occasionally can be. Each has a separate role in your deck.
All in all, I'd say, reading this forum, most people don't realize how many combos would be stopped with just an instant. (This is also a big reason Bargain is banned but Necro isn't, BTW.) Or something proactive like, well Rule of Law.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
And may I remind people, if you're in blue, run counterspells. Hell, you'd be surprised how many times a simple Daze or Mana Leak has screwed my opponents over.
Maaannnn. way more people need to learn to respect the Daze. As much as they should respect the Bolt. Would save them so many embarrassing "oops" situations.
The kicker: I was playing Derevi, so you know: Winter Orb, Hokori, Dust Drinker, Rising Waters. Which means all those Force Spike variants are effectively hard counters if you're impatient, and "bounce an island" is less a cost than an added bonus.
And absolutely when running removal, divide your removal into
The last category is the least useful (unless it's also a cheap instant that hits a lot), but occasionally can be. Each has a separate role in your deck.
All in all, I'd say, reading this forum, most people don't realize how many combos would be stopped with just an instant. (This is also a big reason Bargain is banned but Necro isn't, BTW.) Or something proactive like, well Rule of Law.
Well said. I know people laugh but I don't mind tossing in Lightning Bolt around the table as part of my removal. Hits a dork, hits Arcum Dagsson, hits a Animar, Soul of Elementsso I think its justified. My removal I'm trying to sell myself is Fatal Push. Can never get it to do work so might turn it into a Thoughtseize.
And may I remind people, if you're in blue, run counterspells. Hell, you'd be surprised how many times a simple Daze or Mana Leak has screwed my opponents over.
Maaannnn. way more people need to learn to respect the Daze. As much as they should respect the Bolt. Would save them so many embarrassing "oops" situations.
The kicker: I was playing Derevi, so you know: Winter Orb, Hokori, Dust Drinker, Rising Waters. Which means all those Force Spike variants are effectively hard counters if you're impatient, and "bounce an island" is less a cost than an added bonus.
And absolutely when running removal, divide your removal into
The last category is the least useful (unless it's also a cheap instant that hits a lot), but occasionally can be. Each has a separate role in your deck.
All in all, I'd say, reading this forum, most people don't realize how many combos would be stopped with just an instant. (This is also a big reason Bargain is banned but Necro isn't, BTW.) Or something proactive like, well Rule of Law.
Well said. I know people laugh but I don't mind tossing in Lightning Bolt around the table as part of my removal. Hits a dork, hits Arcum Dagsson, hits a Animar, Soul of Elementsso I think its justified. My removal I'm trying to sell myself is Fatal Push. Can never get it to do work so might turn it into a Thoughtseize.
Oh, Lightning Bolt is incredible. People scoff because they're too narrow minded "oh wahhh you can't play any kind of burn..." when truth is, people need to respect the burn. Put a little bit of fear back in these players' eyes when they realize they can't be completely suicidal with their life points.
Try Pulse of the Forge. It blanks walkers pretty good and typically recurs itself, while threatening four to the face. That'll teach some players to be more cautious.
My decks vary quite a bit in removal volume. If you lump spot removal, sweepers, and counters together, my Kruphix deck runs 17 (20 if you count graveyard interaction like Tormod's Crypt. Number's 8 for my Asmira deck, though it has hatebears as well.
For Tymna & Sidar Kondo, that's down to 4 pieces of spot removal (5 if you count Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim) plus 3 of yard hate. But that's a combo deck with 7 tutors, so ideally it can find removal when it really needs it.
Merieke has 8 plus 2 yard hate, also with a number of tutors.
Selenia has 15 spot removal and sweepers plus a bit of hand disruption and yard hate.
And may I remind people, if you're in blue, run counterspells. Hell, you'd be surprised how many times a simple Daze or Mana Leak has screwed my opponents over.
Maaannnn. way more people need to learn to respect the Daze. As much as they should respect the Bolt. Would save them so many embarrassing "oops" situations.
The kicker: I was playing Derevi, so you know: Winter Orb, Hokori, Dust Drinker, Rising Waters. Which means all those Force Spike variants are effectively hard counters if you're impatient, and "bounce an island" is less a cost than an added bonus.
And absolutely when running removal, divide your removal into
The last category is the least useful (unless it's also a cheap instant that hits a lot), but occasionally can be. Each has a separate role in your deck.
All in all, I'd say, reading this forum, most people don't realize how many combos would be stopped with just an instant. (This is also a big reason Bargain is banned but Necro isn't, BTW.) Or something proactive like, well Rule of Law.
Well said. I know people laugh but I don't mind tossing in Lightning Bolt around the table as part of my removal. Hits a dork, hits Arcum Dagsson, hits a Animar, Soul of Elementsso I think its justified. My removal I'm trying to sell myself is Fatal Push. Can never get it to do work so might turn it into a Thoughtseize.
Oh, Lightning Bolt is incredible. People scoff because they're too narrow minded "oh wahhh you can't play any kind of burn..." when truth is, people need to respect the burn. Put a little bit of fear back in these players' eyes when they realize they can't be completely suicidal with their life points.
Try Pulse of the Forge. It blanks walkers pretty good and typically recurs itself, while threatening four to the face. That'll teach some players to be more cautious.
Yikes. I can run that, the 2nd ability is nice. I take it go for face and hope they redirect to walker? My distribution of red is good because the deck I run the aggressive package in is my Saskia deck which high red drops go for Stormbreath or Kiki. Might drop push.
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Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
I know I go heavy handed, I believe my Kaalia and Karador decks have he most removal, while my Yidris has the least. Obviously it depends on your meta and the deck itself, but I usually start at 10 targeted/single removal spells, and 4-5 boardwipes, and appropriately whittle them down from there.
UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm
WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse
UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare
WBG Karador, the Bridge Between
WU Grand Warden Augustin IV
RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening
BG Nath Addict
UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame
B Kokusho, the Mourning Star
U Memnarch is All
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I find that, unless you are a combo deck, you don't want the game to get super late because then the battlecruisers come out and the huge recursion spells and it just becomes pretty much impossible to control. "fair" control decks really want to play tempoish. Typical play pattern is reset (wrath), threat, protect. don't play additional threats until the first is dealt with to keep more resources for the next reset.
Combo decks are different or commander reliant decks, since you always have access to them perhaps can pack more but then you need ramp to pay the tax etc. Basically the number is all about how easy it is for you to win or find your win.
Removal that also helps you win is the best... Things like balefire dragon,noxious gearhulk, Massacre Wurm. living death, phyrexian rebirth.. etc.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I think the highest I've gone (including counterspells) is something like 50, in my phelddagrif and tasigur political decks.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
*blinks*
That's scary...never thought I'd see the day...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Basically, this. I prefer to err on the side of caution. (This also applies to mana and card draw. I remember when the first Commander product came out and people thought I was "weird" for dedicating half my Ghave to mana.) And I must emphasize the importance of instant-speed removal.
And may I remind people, if you're in blue, run counterspells. Hell, you'd be surprised how many times a simple Daze or Mana Leak has screwed my opponents over.
On phasing:
Current EDH
Akroma W | Tymna and Bruse RBW
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
I'd say I have an average of 8-15 in each of my decks, give or take (Counterspells, Single-target removal, and board wipes being general "removal"). Depends on my focus in the deck, but my meta isn't super competitive, so there's no need for an overabundance. It's just how we like to play.
Maaannnn. way more people need to learn to respect the Daze. As much as they should respect the Bolt. Would save them so many embarrassing "oops" situations.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
5 counterspells
2 targeted creature only removal
2 Arifact/enchantment removal (huge preference for being able to hit both where possible)
1 remove any permanent
4 wipes (3 creature killers and a Cyclonic Rift)
1 Bounce
1 Control Magic effect
In Ghave the combolicious there is
1 wipe (Pernicious Deed)
2 targeted creature only removal with a third (Abzan Charm) that is versatile for different situations
3 Arifact/enchantment removal (huge preference for being able to hit both where possible)
2 remove any permanent
Ghave is more proactive, has more fast mana, and tries to play the game over a shorter time frame. It also has a Defense Grid and an Imp's Mischief to try and force the combos through early.
The faster I want to go the less the removal I pack.
If your win conditions are combos, you can run tons and tons and tons of removal, because your win requires so few card slots.
If you are running something like dragons and using the combat phase to win, you will have to cut out a bunch of removal to actually be able to win the game. Usually you'd run card draw in its place to rebuild after your board is killed.
that was about 50 cards focuses solely on the removal and counter spells (I think 20 removal spells)
so there is no number of what is to much. it is more like, what is too little and how much can you spare?
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
- Run as many creatures as you can within the tribe that double as removal if they're available. In Vampires this means cards like Guul Draz Assassin, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Olivia Voldaren, Patron of the Vein and Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter.
- Run a few emergency board wipes. Sometimes you get outswarmed and the board needs nuked. You won't need many, just a few of the best ones should suffice.
- Finally, a few spot removal cards which will allow you to break through problematic cards. Things like Elesh Norn, Avacyn, you'll want to immediately get rid of those, preferably through exile, though Chaos Warp is acceptable. These cards should never run above 3 mana unless they do something special, and are preferably instant speed.
That should round off your suite quite well. You might still approach the raw numbers you had in your previous build, but the distribution might be different. Of course, what also matters is your local meta. If you run into a lot of Elesh Norns you'll want more spot removal, of course.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Reading these forums, there are so many local playgroups with problems that would be solved by people running more removal.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Jalira Polymorph - 16
Endrek Sahr Stax - 20
Bosh Artifact Flingage - 17
Ezuri Elves - 11
Brago Blink - 27
Oona Mill - 20
RB Wort Goblins - 12
RG Wort Conspiring Tokens - 17
Sisay Legands - 18
Rhys Tokens - 10
Trostani Lifegain - 10
Jarad Sac/Recur - 16
Gisela Burn - 25
Obzedat Life Drain - 15
Niv-Mizzet Draw - 21
Vorel Counters - 14
Uril Enchantress - 9
Prossh Dragons - 16
Nicol Bolas Discard - 23
Derevi Tap/Untap - 17
Oloro Zombies - 14
Ghave +1/+1 counters - 12
Damia Maros- 20
Riku Copy creatures- 12
Progenitus 5-color - 8
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Each deck will have their ideal balance of removal and advancement cards, that is the balance between disrupting your opponent's strategies and advancing your own. In general, each of my decks running blue, black or white tend to have a strategy that benefits from higher levels of removal, while those that are predominantly green or red are more inclined to focus of their own advancement.
No matter the colours or strategy, I always run a minimum of 10 removal spells:
5x Any removal (preferably nonland permanent removal, or counterspells, or boardwipes)
1x Creature specific removal
1x Artifact/Enchantment specific removal
1x Indestructible removal (exile, bounce to hand/library)
1x Hexproof removal (non-targeted removal, usually another boardwipe)
1x Mass removal (boardwipe)
The kicker: I was playing Derevi, so you know: Winter Orb, Hokori, Dust Drinker, Rising Waters. Which means all those Force Spike variants are effectively hard counters if you're impatient, and "bounce an island" is less a cost than an added bonus.
And absolutely when running removal, divide your removal into
The last category is the least useful (unless it's also a cheap instant that hits a lot), but occasionally can be. Each has a separate role in your deck.
All in all, I'd say, reading this forum, most people don't realize how many combos would be stopped with just an instant. (This is also a big reason Bargain is banned but Necro isn't, BTW.) Or something proactive like, well Rule of Law.
On phasing:
Well said. I know people laugh but I don't mind tossing in Lightning Bolt around the table as part of my removal. Hits a dork, hits Arcum Dagsson, hits a Animar, Soul of Elementsso I think its justified. My removal I'm trying to sell myself is Fatal Push. Can never get it to do work so might turn it into a Thoughtseize.
Oh, Lightning Bolt is incredible. People scoff because they're too narrow minded "oh wahhh you can't play any kind of burn..." when truth is, people need to respect the burn. Put a little bit of fear back in these players' eyes when they realize they can't be completely suicidal with their life points.
Try Pulse of the Forge. It blanks walkers pretty good and typically recurs itself, while threatening four to the face. That'll teach some players to be more cautious.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
For Tymna & Sidar Kondo, that's down to 4 pieces of spot removal (5 if you count Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim) plus 3 of yard hate. But that's a combo deck with 7 tutors, so ideally it can find removal when it really needs it.
Merieke has 8 plus 2 yard hate, also with a number of tutors.
Selenia has 15 spot removal and sweepers plus a bit of hand disruption and yard hate.
Yikes. I can run that, the 2nd ability is nice. I take it go for face and hope they redirect to walker? My distribution of red is good because the deck I run the aggressive package in is my Saskia deck which high red drops go for Stormbreath or Kiki. Might drop push.