Been thinking about this question when I restarted playing MTG(EDH) after a year+ hiatus. My EDH playgroup has gotten more powerful, with general acceptance of combos, infinites, stax and land destruction type decks, but somehow or another I still feel that some of my decks aren't really accepted much by many players.
I'm a huge fan of thematic, synergistic, "engine type" decks and am not the type whom likes to play good stuff because they are in color. Good stuff meaning if I'm running an enchantment theme deck, I would try to make enchantments take up 70% of the nonland cards and limit the other card types to a few pieces to none unless they are synergistic to the build. Not all green decks get land ramp spells, and not all blue decks get counterspells, as long as they don't fit the theme, they wouldn't be in. "Engine type" combo decks are decks which each and every card are just part of a puzzle, like a cog or wheel making the big engine. They work just like how 2-3 card combos work, except in order to complete the combo, a group of 5+ cards (sometimes up to the entire deck) is needed to work, similarly to how Modern Eggs are.
I think the problem is how long my turns are, not that I'm slow in thinking and such (and I don't play extra turn spells). Due to the intricacies in assembling the multi card combo plenty of time and spells is needed just to do one thing.
It isn't an infinite due to limited mana available, but not many players who played with me (while I'm piloting decks like this, my Enchantress or my Lands theme deck) likes playing against such decks, many just take out their phones and start playing online TCGs.
So what do I do? Opt for easier combos like MikeTrisk or KikiConscripts? Or just carry on ahead and hope one day others will come to terms with it? Where do I draw the line in which what type of deck is acceptable?
This. In fact, I owe it to my opponent to bring the biggest challenge possible. Not to get all Bruce Lee about it but: Without challenge and adversity, there is no growth. If I know that someone is playing a degenerate, world-beating deck in the room, THAT'S the table I sit at. That is where the challenge is.
Anyone that sits across from me knows they are in for a battle and that they are gonna have to literally take my last life point before I concede. So go ahead and play LD. I'll sit there all day long, just make sure you have a good finisher.
Length of the turns could definitely be a factor. People definitely like simple combos like MikeTrike and KikiConscripts because you just end the game on the spot, no fuss or waiting involved.
But if you play with the same people all the time, why not simply talk to them about it? As a deck builder, I enjoy when my friends bring a new deck to the table, or switch out some cards into an older deck I wasn't anticipating, because it forces me to think about how to alter my own decks. I have a Damia, Sage of Stone deck that focuses heavily on ramp into massive X spells/landfall. I would constantly get attacked in the early game for lack of blockers, so I started swapping out my 2/3 mana ramp Sorceries for creatures like Farhaven Elf, to mitigate some of the damage. When I noticed everyone was getting heavier into artifacts, I found space for Bane of Progress. If your group is having problems with a particular combo you have or synergies you use, they should really look into seeing how they can adjust their deck.
My playgroup really takes advantage of this being a much more social format. If someone is having a hard time going off because they're playing around counter magic or what not, then we simply just joke amongst ourselves and talk about things like movies, videogames, and D&D. We keep an eye on whats going on at the table to see if we can interject in the turn in any way, but we don't make a big fuss over it most of the time.
This whole thing gets more difficult in a group full of strangers, but I guess I view that as a great way to meet new people and talk about activities you enjoy beyond magic. When people do this, turns that take forever like an "eggs" combo really don't seem to take that long at all.
If you are doing something like the example you described I'd be perfectly fine with it. If you are constantly just taking long turns and not progressing your board state much people are going to get annoyed. If that is the sort of deck you like I'd say keep at it within reason, but focus on playing faster.
I know this topic has come up before. Here's the thing, there is a price to playing faster in that you will make incorrect plays from time to time, but there is also a benefit in that the game will go faster (sometimes much faster) and will normally be more fun. You will also get to play more games throughout the session. What I have found is there is sort of an unwritten rule that people follow where they are willing to make the sacrifice of playing faster because of the benefits described above. Even though it hasn't been vocalized or maybe even consciously decided by the players, they will get annoyed if everyone is playing fast except for one person. That person is ultimately not getting the disadvantages of playing faster like everyone else, but also causing them to sit around twiddling their thumbs. I have no way of knowing if that is you, but may be what is going on?
This. In fact, I owe it to my opponent to bring the biggest challenge possible. Not to get all Bruce Lee about it but: Without challenge and adversity, there is no growth. If I know that someone is playing a degenerate, world-beating deck in the room, THAT'S the table I sit at. That is where the challenge is.
Anyone that sits across from me knows they are in for a battle and that they are gonna have to literally take my last life point before I concede. So go ahead and play LD. I'll sit there all day long, just make sure you have a good finisher.
I will contamination lock/fulminator soft lock you with Alesha all day, sinkhole your t1 land on the play, and not bat an eye. Then smile as you do the same and we're on 2 lands and t15.
If you're not doing your all to win...then What's the point?
I have a similar issue, my only deck right now is Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder and my turns can take a while depending on my hand, if I get my cascade trigfers and have any card draw, it usually takes a while before I end my turn. Especially seeing as I run a lot of tap effects to abuse with Paradox Engine as well as untap all my mana rocks.
This. In fact, I owe it to my opponent to bring the biggest challenge possible. Not to get all Bruce Lee about it but: Without challenge and adversity, there is no growth. If I know that someone is playing a degenerate, world-beating deck in the room, THAT'S the table I sit at. That is where the challenge is.
Anyone that sits across from me knows they are in for a battle and that they are gonna have to literally take my last life point before I concede. So go ahead and play LD. I'll sit there all day long, just make sure you have a good finisher.
I will contamination lock/fulminator soft lock you with Alesha all day, sinkhole your t1 land on the play, and not bat an eye. Then smile as you do the same and we're on 2 lands and t15.
If you're not doing your all to win...then What's the point?
Indeed. One of the sweetest wins in all of Magic, in my opinion, is winning the war of attrition against LD or Blue Permission. The more counterspells someone uses against me, the better I get at baiting them so all I can say is bring them on... Please.
People that concede to that sort of oppression rob themselves of some glorious victories.
This. In fact, I owe it to my opponent to bring the biggest challenge possible. Not to get all Bruce Lee about it but: Without challenge and adversity, there is no growth. If I know that someone is playing a degenerate, world-beating deck in the room, THAT'S the table I sit at. That is where the challenge is.
Anyone that sits across from me knows they are in for a battle and that they are gonna have to literally take my last life point before I concede. So go ahead and play LD. I'll sit there all day long, just make sure you have a good finisher.
I will contamination lock/fulminator soft lock you with Alesha all day, sinkhole your t1 land on the play, and not bat an eye. Then smile as you do the same and we're on 2 lands and t15.
If you're not doing your all to win...then What's the point?
Indeed. One of the sweetest wins in all of Magic, in my opinion, is winning the war of attrition against LD or Blue Permission. The more counterspells someone uses against me, the better I get at baiting them so all I can say is bring them on... Please.
People that concede to that sort of oppression rob themselves of some glorious victories.
I mean, if you know you have zero outs to that scenario, then by all means, concede and we can move to g2. I do think that some of these players let the frustration get them on tilt though, and that leads to quicker concessions than usual. Or, more likely, people just ragequit anything that doesn't fall into their vision of "fun". Of course that doesn't help them improve, and in fact just makes them softer to the strat they don't like and ultimately worse players for it. There's only one word to describe them;
S. A. W. F. T. (cookie to anyone that gets the reference).
Why fight something I don't like when I can go have a tea party with some other table?
I think it's pretty hilarious how people feel so superior for "enjoying a challenge" when they play the most powerful decks available. If you want a challenge, then play a BAD deck. Play a precon and beat tuned combo decks. That's a REAL challenge, you'll REALLY feel great after you pull that off. That would sure be a glorious victory (Eventually). You wanted a challenge, right? That's your goal?
Oh, or maybe what you actually want is a fair fight. In which case, don't criticize other people for wanting the same.
(not to say there aren't people who have powerful decks but still whinge about any hate directed at them, that's still annoying)
To OP: I mean, if it's an issue of your turns taking too long. just figure out how many things everyone else has to bounce and tell that that number, turn over. Seems straightforward enough to me. Just get better at math or something?
Obviously roughly matching the power level of your group is important, but your post doesn't really give me an idea of where you are on that metric.
This. In fact, I owe it to my opponent to bring the biggest challenge possible. Not to get all Bruce Lee about it but: Without challenge and adversity, there is no growth. If I know that someone is playing a degenerate, world-beating deck in the room, THAT'S the table I sit at. That is where the challenge is.
Anyone that sits across from me knows they are in for a battle and that they are gonna have to literally take my last life point before I concede. So go ahead and play LD. I'll sit there all day long, just make sure you have a good finisher.
I will contamination lock/fulminator soft lock you with Alesha all day, sinkhole your t1 land on the play, and not bat an eye. Then smile as you do the same and we're on 2 lands and t15.
If you're not doing your all to win...then What's the point?
Indeed. One of the sweetest wins in all of Magic, in my opinion, is winning the war of attrition against LD or Blue Permission. The more counterspells someone uses against me, the better I get at baiting them so all I can say is bring them on... Please.
People that concede to that sort of oppression rob themselves of some glorious victories.
I mean, if you know you have zero outs to that scenario, then by all means, concede and we can move to g2. I do think that some of these players let the frustration get them on tilt though, and that leads to quicker concessions than usual. Or, more likely, people just ragequit anything that doesn't fall into their vision of "fun". Of course that doesn't help them improve, and in fact just makes them softer to the strat they don't like and ultimately worse players for it. There's only one word to describe them;
S. A. W. F. T. (cookie to anyone that gets the reference).
Why fight something I don't like when I can go have a tea party with some other table?
You can use any WWE reference you want, but I have a question. Why do people think that making a deck that is the most annoying and slow torture they can make AUTOMATICALLY entitles them to assume their opponents are soft if they just don't want to put up with that junk? Why should I put up with their sadistic LD deck? Sure, I can waste an hour in a 1v1 game to try and ekke out a win, but when I only have a few hours per week of free time, why should I waste it on their stupid, worthless @$$ when they are clearly only trying to screw with me anyway?
I mean, if you want to face those people, go for it. But quitting in this case often has less to do with softness, and more do to with maximizing the limited time you have for a supposedly fun activity.
I mean, if you know you have zero outs to that scenario, then by all means, concede and we can move to g2. I do think that some of these players let the frustration get them on tilt though, and that leads to quicker concessions than usual. Or, more likely, people just ragequit anything that doesn't fall into their vision of "fun". Of course that doesn't help them improve, and in fact just makes them softer to the strat they don't like and ultimately worse players for it. There's only one word to describe them;
S. A. W. F. T. (cookie to anyone that gets the reference).
Why fight something I don't like when I can go have a tea party with some other table?
You can use any WWE reference you want, but I have a question. Why do people think that making a deck that is the most annoying and slow torture they can make AUTOMATICALLY entitles them to assume their opponents are soft if they just don't want to put up with that junk? Why should I put up with their sadistic LD deck? Sure, I can waste an hour in a 1v1 game to try and ekke out a win, but when I only have a few hours per week of free time, why should I waste it on their stupid, worthless @$$ when they are clearly only trying to screw with me anyway?
I mean, if you want to face those people, go for it. But quitting in this case often has less to do with softness, and more do to with maximizing the limited time you have for a supposedly fun activity.
You sound like the salt is real, mang. This is a vintage cardpool format, you can't hate on what I'm doing when you could be doing the same (or worse). In a format of Mana Drains and Candelabras, Moats and Humilities, Hermit Druids, Polymorphs, Flash-Hulks, and Oath of Druids...you gotta do whatever you can to prevent the dumb I win scenarios.
You don't have to play these cards. But I don't know you, I can only assume the worst. And if I'm gonna assume the worst, then I'm gonna prepare the best. This format is dog-eat-dog, and you have just two choices;
You sound like the salt is real, mang. This is a vintage cardpool format, you can't hate on what I'm doing when you could be doing the same (or worse). In a format of Mana Drains and Candelabras, Moats and Humilities, Hermit Druids, Polymorphs, Flash-Hulks, and Oath of Druids...you gotta do whatever you can to prevent the dumb I win scenarios.
You don't have to play these cards. But I don't know you, I can only assume the worst. And if I'm gonna assume the worst, then I'm gonna prepare the best. This format is dog-eat-dog, and you have just two choices;
You either adapt...or perish.
Ok, well first of all, this is a casual format so although anyone could LEGALLY play moat, most people don't because they can't afford it or just don't want to. In the vast majority of places I've played, people are not playing top-tier competitive decks. People are almost always playing casual decks, so I bring a casual deck to match their power and keep the competition balanced and the challenge real. In the very unlikely chance that someone is playing a top-tier competitive deck...fine, maybe I lose. Not a big deal. This "assume the worst" policy is ridiculous. First of all, bumping into top-tier decks in a lgs environment is very rare. Second of all, the consequences of loss are nil. We're not playing for moxen here. Freaking relax.
To me it sounds like you're way more worried about the 1% chance that someone is playing a top-tier deck and you lose, than the 99% chance that you make the game boring for the rest of the players who are playing more casual decks when you bring a competitive deck.
If you want to have a top-tier deck to bring along in the off-chance of a competitive game, that's reasonable, and it's fine to play competitively against other people who prefer to play that way, but busting out a competitive deck in a new group sight unseen (or any group that prefers not to play that way) just because you're petrified that you might lose is childish.
You sound like the salt is real, mang. This is a vintage cardpool format, you can't hate on what I'm doing when you could be doing the same (or worse). In a format of Mana Drains and Candelabras, Moats and Humilities, Hermit Druids, Polymorphs, Flash-Hulks, and Oath of Druids...you gotta do whatever you can to prevent the dumb I win scenarios.
You don't have to play these cards. But I don't know you, I can only assume the worst. And if I'm gonna assume the worst, then I'm gonna prepare the best. This format is dog-eat-dog, and you have just two choices;
You either adapt...or perish.
Ok, well first of all, this is a casual format so although anyone could LEGALLY play moat, most people don't because they can't afford it or just don't want to. In the vast majority of places I've played, people are not playing top-tier competitive decks. People are almost always playing casual decks, so I bring a casual deck to match their power and keep the competition balanced and the challenge real. In the very unlikely chance that someone is playing a top-tier competitive deck...fine, maybe I lose. Not a big deal. This "assume the worst" policy is ridiculous. First of all, bumping into top-tier decks in a lgs environment is very rare. Second of all, the consequences of loss are nil. We're not playing for moxen here. Freaking relax.
To me it sounds like you're way more worried about the 1% chance that someone is playing a top-tier deck and you lose, than the 99% chance that you make the game boring for the rest of the players who are playing more casual decks when you bring a competitive deck.
If you want to have a top-tier deck to bring along in the off-chance of a competitive game, that's reasonable, and it's fine to play competitively against other people who prefer to play that way, but busting out a competitive deck in a new group sight unseen (or any group that prefers not to play that way) just because you're petrified that you might lose is childish.
I actually do own a Moat, The Abyss, Imp. Recruiter/Grim Tutour and co. I've been in the game near twenty years, I enjoy playing with all my toys. But even if I didn't, the aim of a game is to win right? So if you're not winning...well there you have it.
I actually do own a Moat, The Abyss, Imp. Recruiter/Grim Tutour and co. I've been in the game near twenty years, I enjoy playing with all my toys. But even if I didn't, the aim of a game is to win right? So if you're not winning...well there you have it.
The goal of a game is having FUN (especially a casual format - if you're at a GP the story is a little different though one still hopes you're having fun). TRYING to win - to some degree - is necessary (imo) but not sufficient to achieve that goal. You shouldn't need to actually win to have fun, the attempt is what's necessary. It's about the struggle, the contest of skill. If your deck is wildly more powerful (or less powerful) there's not much of a struggle, and thus there's not much fun.
I own all that stuff too, and I think there's a responsible and an irresponsible way to use them. There's nothing inherently busted about grim tutor, for example, if you're trying to assemble some amusing synergy and don't want to pay 1 extra for a diabolic tutor. But if I used those tools to build a top-tier deck, and beat a bunch of precon-level decks at my LGS because I'd spent more money, that's not likely to equal fun for anyone involved.
Around here, we adapt by moving to another table and leave the 'pro players' to perish on their own as nobody wants to play with them.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
If you are doing something like the example you described I'd be perfectly fine with it. If you are constantly just taking long turns and not progressing your board state much people are going to get annoyed. If that is the sort of deck you like I'd say keep at it within reason, but focus on playing faster.
I know this topic has come up before. Here's the thing, there is a price to playing faster in that you will make incorrect plays from time to time, but there is also a benefit in that the game will go faster (sometimes much faster) and will normally be more fun. You will also get to play more games throughout the session. What I have found is there is sort of an unwritten rule that people follow where they are willing to make the sacrifice of playing faster because of the benefits described above. Even though it hasn't been vocalized or maybe even consciously decided by the players, they will get annoyed if everyone is playing fast except for one person. That person is ultimately not getting the disadvantages of playing faster like everyone else, but also causing them to sit around twiddling their thumbs. I have no way of knowing if that is you, but may be what is going on?
Yep, I think that might be the reason of them playing on their mobiles during my turn. Most of the time when I'm playing such decks, the turns are long due to having access to a limited pool of mana (not infinite combo). I need to balance between card draws to continue the engine and also keep mana to fend off counters and disruptions to the combo. I just can't plainly say that I have this "shifting wildgrowth+overgrowth" loop X times and everyone returns X permanents. Since the loop is at sorcery speed, other players will disrupt it when their advantage on the whole game is not in their favor. In multiplayer games it is always good to "borrow other players' spells and combos to disrupt your opponents for you". In this case, using my combo to help weaken other players before killing my combo when it gets too overboard.
My playgroup really takes advantage of this being a much more social format. If someone is having a hard time going off because they're playing around counter magic or what not, then we simply just joke amongst ourselves and talk about things like movies, videogames, and D&D. We keep an eye on whats going on at the table to see if we can interject in the turn in any way, but we don't make a big fuss over it most of the time.
This whole thing gets more difficult in a group full of strangers, but I guess I view that as a great way to meet new people and talk about activities you enjoy beyond magic. When people do this, turns that take forever like an "eggs" combo really don't seem to take that long at all.
True, friends whom have seen this type of combo deck will just take the chance to talk, but for strangers most of the time is a hard pill to swallow. Quite a number of them just scoop after seeing me attempting to chain spells off but fizzle for a few turns due to disruptions of key spells or poor draws as the deck leans towards more thematic rather than consistent.
To OP: I mean, if it's an issue of your turns taking too long. just figure out how many things everyone else has to bounce and tell that that number, turn over. Seems straightforward enough to me. Just get better at math or something?
Obviously roughly matching the power level of your group is important, but your post doesn't really give me an idea of where you are on that metric.
Power level is about equivalent, at least imho. Decks the other players are running are Zur the Enchanters (One is Doomsday combo and the other Astral Slide stax, Rishadan Footpad + Panharmonicon + Astral Slide and plenty of cycling cards is spectacular even when on the receiving end), Animar combo, Breya combos, sick Kozilek v.2, other prison and mass land destruction decks too.
Math isn't much of an issue, in most situations the board state isn't as simple as what my example depicts where there is a repeat finite loop. Like the combo below which kind of make me receive the "I come here to play MTG not watch others solitaire" comment due to taking too long to figure out how to kill off everyone in 1 single turn. Much luck is needed to see what cards I draw during the combo too.
Around here, we adapt by moving to another table and leave the 'pro players' to perish on their own as nobody wants to play with them.
It is really sad to be the one being ostracized. :X
I'm used to it. I don't have an "off-switch" when I play. I "don't know how" to tone down what I do and how I do it. As a result, I have quite the rep as that guy, but once you know this about me, people come to respect it. I once Boil'd a casual Thada Adel deck on the end step of their t3 (my t4) to which they just glared at me. Two other players laughed and high-fived. I stared at him in the most stoic expression and just replied;
"If you're going to bring mono-U...you need to accept the consequences. U decks win when they are left alone."
He never did get back into the game after that. No regrets. No rest, no mercy. No matter what.
I'm used to it. I don't have an "off-switch" when I play. I "don't know how" to tone down what I do and how I do it. As a result, I have quite the rep as that guy, but once you know this about me, people come to respect it. I once Boil'd a casual Thada Adel deck on the end step of their t3 (my t4) to which they just glared at me. Two other players laughed and high-fived. I stared at him in the most stoic expression and just replied;
"If you're going to bring mono-U...you need to accept the consequences. U decks win when they are left alone."
He never did get back into the game after that. No regrets. No rest, no mercy. No matter what.
I feel like you think this makes you sound like an awesome player, when in reality it makes you sound like a bully picking on the weak for no other reason than you can.
If you want to actually test your skills as a commander player, rather than wave your wallet in people's faces, play a bad deck. One of the best commander players I've played against only played precons, and he still won quite often. I'm willing to bet he was a way better player than you are.
Alternately - go play legacy. Or modern. Or limited. Or whatever. If you want no-holds-barred competition, go play a competitive format.
It isn't an infinite due to limited mana available, but not many players who played with me (while I'm piloting decks like this, my Enchantress or my Lands theme deck) likes playing against such decks, many just take out their phones and start playing online TCGs.
Hearthstone is fun, sorry. Probably not about you, really. A new set just got released.
Honestly, I expect people who don't want to lose to X, Y, Z whatever it is to just play answers to it or target you with attacks and removal. Just the game, really. As much as people like to say that EDH is more of a group activity, unlike games like D&D, there is a clear objective that only one player can reach at the expense of the others.
I'm used to it. I don't have an "off-switch" when I play. I "don't know how" to tone down what I do and how I do it. As a result, I have quite the rep as that guy, but once you know this about me, people come to respect it. I once Boil'd a casual Thada Adel deck on the end step of their t3 (my t4) to which they just glared at me. Two other players laughed and high-fived. I stared at him in the most stoic expression and just replied;
"If you're going to bring mono-U...you need to accept the consequences. U decks win when they are left alone."
He never did get back into the game after that. No regrets. No rest, no mercy. No matter what.
I feel like you think this makes you sound like an awesome player, when in reality it makes you sound like a bully picking on the weak for no other reason than you can.
If you want to actually test your skills as a commander player, rather than wave your wallet in people's faces, play a bad deck. One of the best commander players I've played against only played precons, and he still won quite often. I'm willing to bet he was a way better player than you are.
Alternately - go play legacy. Or modern. Or limited. Or whatever. If you want no-holds-barred competition, go play a competitive format.
Because I'm actively an anti U player I'm a bully now? Because I play colour hosers based on the predication of the most common colour I'm a bully, not a crafty next level strategist?
Stop being a GD white knight. U players know what they're getting into. They don't need you to defend them from clever builders like me.
I just wanted to drop in and say that you players at the extreme end of both sides of the spectrum seem equally miserable to play with.
Have you even considered that casual or competitive is not the issue, it's matching to the group? Seriously, the people whining about cash=winning are just as annoying as the people that insist on making every game singleton vintage.
The "line" is where you match with the values of the rest of the group within a reasonable compromise.
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I'm a huge fan of thematic, synergistic, "engine type" decks and am not the type whom likes to play good stuff because they are in color. Good stuff meaning if I'm running an enchantment theme deck, I would try to make enchantments take up 70% of the nonland cards and limit the other card types to a few pieces to none unless they are synergistic to the build. Not all green decks get land ramp spells, and not all blue decks get counterspells, as long as they don't fit the theme, they wouldn't be in. "Engine type" combo decks are decks which each and every card are just part of a puzzle, like a cog or wheel making the big engine. They work just like how 2-3 card combos work, except in order to complete the combo, a group of 5+ cards (sometimes up to the entire deck) is needed to work, similarly to how Modern Eggs are.
I think the problem is how long my turns are, not that I'm slow in thinking and such (and I don't play extra turn spells). Due to the intricacies in assembling the multi card combo plenty of time and spells is needed just to do one thing.
Example:
Herald of the Pantheon + Dance of Many (copying herald) + Enchantress's Presence + Words of Wind allows me to chain dance(cast) cards like Wild Growth + Overgrowth across my available untapped lands on the battlefield while returning everyone's permanents.
It isn't an infinite due to limited mana available, but not many players who played with me (while I'm piloting decks like this, my Enchantress or my Lands theme deck) likes playing against such decks, many just take out their phones and start playing online TCGs.
So what do I do? Opt for easier combos like MikeTrisk or KikiConscripts? Or just carry on ahead and hope one day others will come to terms with it? Where do I draw the line in which what type of deck is acceptable?
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This. In fact, I owe it to my opponent to bring the biggest challenge possible. Not to get all Bruce Lee about it but: Without challenge and adversity, there is no growth. If I know that someone is playing a degenerate, world-beating deck in the room, THAT'S the table I sit at. That is where the challenge is.
Anyone that sits across from me knows they are in for a battle and that they are gonna have to literally take my last life point before I concede. So go ahead and play LD. I'll sit there all day long, just make sure you have a good finisher.
But if you play with the same people all the time, why not simply talk to them about it? As a deck builder, I enjoy when my friends bring a new deck to the table, or switch out some cards into an older deck I wasn't anticipating, because it forces me to think about how to alter my own decks. I have a Damia, Sage of Stone deck that focuses heavily on ramp into massive X spells/landfall. I would constantly get attacked in the early game for lack of blockers, so I started swapping out my 2/3 mana ramp Sorceries for creatures like Farhaven Elf, to mitigate some of the damage. When I noticed everyone was getting heavier into artifacts, I found space for Bane of Progress. If your group is having problems with a particular combo you have or synergies you use, they should really look into seeing how they can adjust their deck.
This whole thing gets more difficult in a group full of strangers, but I guess I view that as a great way to meet new people and talk about activities you enjoy beyond magic. When people do this, turns that take forever like an "eggs" combo really don't seem to take that long at all.
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls - Knowledge is Power U [Primer]
R Heartless Hidetsugu - The Art of Ending Games R
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - The Cluster HungersBG
I know this topic has come up before. Here's the thing, there is a price to playing faster in that you will make incorrect plays from time to time, but there is also a benefit in that the game will go faster (sometimes much faster) and will normally be more fun. You will also get to play more games throughout the session. What I have found is there is sort of an unwritten rule that people follow where they are willing to make the sacrifice of playing faster because of the benefits described above. Even though it hasn't been vocalized or maybe even consciously decided by the players, they will get annoyed if everyone is playing fast except for one person. That person is ultimately not getting the disadvantages of playing faster like everyone else, but also causing them to sit around twiddling their thumbs. I have no way of knowing if that is you, but may be what is going on?
I will contamination lock/fulminator soft lock you with Alesha all day, sinkhole your t1 land on the play, and not bat an eye. Then smile as you do the same and we're on 2 lands and t15.
If you're not doing your all to win...then What's the point?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Indeed. One of the sweetest wins in all of Magic, in my opinion, is winning the war of attrition against LD or Blue Permission. The more counterspells someone uses against me, the better I get at baiting them so all I can say is bring them on... Please.
People that concede to that sort of oppression rob themselves of some glorious victories.
I mean, if you know you have zero outs to that scenario, then by all means, concede and we can move to g2. I do think that some of these players let the frustration get them on tilt though, and that leads to quicker concessions than usual. Or, more likely, people just ragequit anything that doesn't fall into their vision of "fun". Of course that doesn't help them improve, and in fact just makes them softer to the strat they don't like and ultimately worse players for it. There's only one word to describe them;
S. A. W. F. T. (cookie to anyone that gets the reference).
Why fight something I don't like when I can go have a tea party with some other table?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Oh, or maybe what you actually want is a fair fight. In which case, don't criticize other people for wanting the same.
(not to say there aren't people who have powerful decks but still whinge about any hate directed at them, that's still annoying)
To OP: I mean, if it's an issue of your turns taking too long. just figure out how many things everyone else has to bounce and tell that that number, turn over. Seems straightforward enough to me. Just get better at math or something?
Obviously roughly matching the power level of your group is important, but your post doesn't really give me an idea of where you are on that metric.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I mean, if you want to face those people, go for it. But quitting in this case often has less to do with softness, and more do to with maximizing the limited time you have for a supposedly fun activity.
You sound like the salt is real, mang. This is a vintage cardpool format, you can't hate on what I'm doing when you could be doing the same (or worse). In a format of Mana Drains and Candelabras, Moats and Humilities, Hermit Druids, Polymorphs, Flash-Hulks, and Oath of Druids...you gotta do whatever you can to prevent the dumb I win scenarios.
You don't have to play these cards. But I don't know you, I can only assume the worst. And if I'm gonna assume the worst, then I'm gonna prepare the best. This format is dog-eat-dog, and you have just two choices;
You either adapt...or perish.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Have fun. If anything, this proves there's a Magic style for everyone. Cheers.
To me it sounds like you're way more worried about the 1% chance that someone is playing a top-tier deck and you lose, than the 99% chance that you make the game boring for the rest of the players who are playing more casual decks when you bring a competitive deck.
If you want to have a top-tier deck to bring along in the off-chance of a competitive game, that's reasonable, and it's fine to play competitively against other people who prefer to play that way, but busting out a competitive deck in a new group sight unseen (or any group that prefers not to play that way) just because you're petrified that you might lose is childish.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I actually do own a Moat, The Abyss, Imp. Recruiter/Grim Tutour and co. I've been in the game near twenty years, I enjoy playing with all my toys. But even if I didn't, the aim of a game is to win right? So if you're not winning...well there you have it.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I own all that stuff too, and I think there's a responsible and an irresponsible way to use them. There's nothing inherently busted about grim tutor, for example, if you're trying to assemble some amusing synergy and don't want to pay 1 extra for a diabolic tutor. But if I used those tools to build a top-tier deck, and beat a bunch of precon-level decks at my LGS because I'd spent more money, that's not likely to equal fun for anyone involved.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Around here, we adapt by moving to another table and leave the 'pro players' to perish on their own as nobody wants to play with them.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Yep, I think that might be the reason of them playing on their mobiles during my turn. Most of the time when I'm playing such decks, the turns are long due to having access to a limited pool of mana (not infinite combo). I need to balance between card draws to continue the engine and also keep mana to fend off counters and disruptions to the combo. I just can't plainly say that I have this "shifting wildgrowth+overgrowth" loop X times and everyone returns X permanents. Since the loop is at sorcery speed, other players will disrupt it when their advantage on the whole game is not in their favor. In multiplayer games it is always good to "borrow other players' spells and combos to disrupt your opponents for you". In this case, using my combo to help weaken other players before killing my combo when it gets too overboard.
True, friends whom have seen this type of combo deck will just take the chance to talk, but for strangers most of the time is a hard pill to swallow. Quite a number of them just scoop after seeing me attempting to chain spells off but fizzle for a few turns due to disruptions of key spells or poor draws as the deck leans towards more thematic rather than consistent.
Power level is about equivalent, at least imho. Decks the other players are running are Zur the Enchanters (One is Doomsday combo and the other Astral Slide stax, Rishadan Footpad + Panharmonicon + Astral Slide and plenty of cycling cards is spectacular even when on the receiving end), Animar combo, Breya combos, sick Kozilek v.2, other prison and mass land destruction decks too.
Math isn't much of an issue, in most situations the board state isn't as simple as what my example depicts where there is a repeat finite loop. Like the combo below which kind of make me receive the "I come here to play MTG not watch others solitaire" comment due to taking too long to figure out how to kill off everyone in 1 single turn. Much luck is needed to see what cards I draw during the combo too.
On battlefield
The Gitrog monster (Commander)
Amulet of Vigor
Retreat to Hagra
Putrid Imp
7 lands
On hand
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Scapeshift
Demonic Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
It is really sad to be the one being ostracized. :X
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I'm used to it. I don't have an "off-switch" when I play. I "don't know how" to tone down what I do and how I do it. As a result, I have quite the rep as that guy, but once you know this about me, people come to respect it. I once Boil'd a casual Thada Adel deck on the end step of their t3 (my t4) to which they just glared at me. Two other players laughed and high-fived. I stared at him in the most stoic expression and just replied;
"If you're going to bring mono-U...you need to accept the consequences. U decks win when they are left alone."
He never did get back into the game after that. No regrets. No rest, no mercy. No matter what.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
If you want to actually test your skills as a commander player, rather than wave your wallet in people's faces, play a bad deck. One of the best commander players I've played against only played precons, and he still won quite often. I'm willing to bet he was a way better player than you are.
Alternately - go play legacy. Or modern. Or limited. Or whatever. If you want no-holds-barred competition, go play a competitive format.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Hearthstone is fun, sorry. Probably not about you, really. A new set just got released.
Honestly, I expect people who don't want to lose to X, Y, Z whatever it is to just play answers to it or target you with attacks and removal. Just the game, really. As much as people like to say that EDH is more of a group activity, unlike games like D&D, there is a clear objective that only one player can reach at the expense of the others.
Because I'm actively an anti U player I'm a bully now? Because I play colour hosers based on the predication of the most common colour I'm a bully, not a crafty next level strategist?
Stop being a GD white knight. U players know what they're getting into. They don't need you to defend them from clever builders like me.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Have you even considered that casual or competitive is not the issue, it's matching to the group? Seriously, the people whining about cash=winning are just as annoying as the people that insist on making every game singleton vintage.
The "line" is where you match with the values of the rest of the group within a reasonable compromise.