I've noticed that this year especially, WoTC has been pitching the 56 original cards released in the 4 new Commander 2017 decks as being legal in Vintage and Legacy. It's gotten people especially excited this time 'round I feel, due to the recently announced return of legacy to the Pro Tour. There are some factors going on here that make me think that WoTC is trying to do too much - with so little.
56 Cards may not be enough dedication of design space for even the Commander product, let alone Vintage and Legacy. Too much canvas is trying to be covered with the amount of paint you've got to work with here, WoTC.
After having seen the rather lackluster list of reprints this year for C17, it became aware to me (I think) that this product's hit-and-miss quality over the years is a direct result of the top-down design that this product suffers as a result of this seemingly arbitrary 'rule of 56' as I'll call it. The 56 new cards.
After having seen the 56 originals first and the reprints second, I got the impression that the teams of people who were working on this product would have had their effort better served by not being "put into a box" - a 56 card box - and could have put together a better end result for us if they had more room for freedom of design.
Select the theme for the year's commander product. Next, select the reprints you need to target. Now that you have a framework of reprints, fill in the gaps with new cards that we as players will need to complete the theme. Then give us the commander staples, new and old. This is also your space for finishing land cycles as well - something that is rarely touched on. A few 56 cards is not enough design space to accomplish this task. It is also not enough design space to try to balance said card's power levels for the sake of Vintage and Legacy.
The design teams for Commander products should also be able to use one of the slots for a "new card" to be a functional reprint of an old card if the equivalent reprint isn't practical. This allows for more flexibility. This is ok in the world of EDH players because we work with singletons, we appreciate having functional reprints if it's done the right way. A good example for C17 would have been to select the tribe, pick the reprints of all of the necessary tribal related effects, wherever those tribal aspects end that need to be filled in to flush out the tribe's synergy/power is where you drop a new card - to fill that unoccupied space. Currently this didn't happen because that "new" card slot is trying to serve too many purposes and the end result is this batch of tribe decks with holes in their synergy, like a lack of lord-effects
Currently a customer looks at the Commander product and they can expect to see it as a place for: commander staples, commander-specific-reprints, reprints for the specific theme(s) of the year and (among other things) also a place of design space where we see absolutely crucial lands come from.
Now we're approaching the perilous path of expecting much more from this Commander product it would seem, we're coming to expect the reprints and originals to be the kinds of cards that are otherwise too powerful to be printed into Standard or even into modern and by virtue of the product these cards are in, Commander, we'd expect some of the reprints and new cards to be on that level of power.
I think WoTC can deliver us a much better Commander product if they allow for a broader design space by dropping the 56-card-albatross from around their neck. We can get better products for Vintage and Legacy players too if they didn't have any new cards being printed put through the filter of EDH. Use the Eternal, Iconic and M25 Masters series to introduce new cards dedicated for Vintage and Legacy, shape that into something independent for those formats because they certainly need it.
Please share your thoughts on any of the subjects I touched on or how you think WoTC could improve the Commander product. Even if you disagree with me please let's have this conversation because if it's a big enough conversation it can become noticed! Thanks.
EDIT:
TLDR; WoTC shouldn't sell Commander as the place for new Vintage and Legacy cards if they're only going to have 56 slots for new cards per year, doing so is a disservice to 3 formats; increase the ceiling on this number so you can print more supplemental products that are additional sources for new cards that do not have to pass through the conceptual filters created by the draft environment or the Standard format.
Lets be clear about one thing: these cards are not for Legacy or Vintage. They may be legal in those formats but they are not, will not be, and never have been designed with those formats in mind. So when looking at these products looking at them from the perspective is going to inevitably lead to disappointment.
As for looking at the 56 cards from a commander perspective I think its fine. It's important to keep both design space and reprint space conserved. And that's coming from someone who wants cards to be cheap in price and wild in effect. Remember that these are supposed to be intro products. The idea is that new commander players can pick these up, be reasonably competitive if not in an awful meta, and then have room to grow the decks once they have an idea of what the deck could be and what they want to do. They're not supposed to be fully formed. And every time they throw in a pricey reprint they risk the deck being bought up and pulled apart like the Jeleva deck from years ago. Which drives the price of the sealed deck up making it hard to get it into the hands of the target audience. I think the system they have is fine. Certainly this year's offerings are not up to last year's but I don't think that's really a fair comparison.
Lets be clear about one thing: these cards are not for Legacy or Vintage. They may be legal in those formats but they are not, will not be, and never have been designed with those formats in mind. So when looking at these products looking at them from the perspective is going to inevitably lead to disappointment.
If memory serves me right, Wizards has actually printed cards in past Commander products with the intent to entice eternal players into buying these products (True-Name Nemesis, Unexpectedly Absent). That aside, I still agree with you 100% on everything else. Cards featured in a Commander product should be exclusively designed for Commander. It's the entire point of the product, and nowhere else will Wizards have the opportunity to utilize that design space in much the same sense that cards in Conspiracy sets should be designed around draft as nowhere else will Wizards be able to create cards of that kind (see Canal Dredger, Garbage Fire, etc.). Any Commander card's eternal applications should be a complete afterthought. The purpose of the product should be to please Commander players, not to please eternal ones.
With all of that said, I don't really buy into anything said in the opening post. Are there unique challenges when it comes to designing Commander specific decks? Sure. I'm not entirely sure what those constraints are, but I know they exist, and I know that Wizards is doing their damnedest to make the most out of their releases. They've chosen to print 56 new cards for a reason, whatever it may be, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that what they're doing is what they believe is best for their game.
If OP is upset that not enough space in Commander products is devoted to new cards, I would ask Wizards for more Commander products, not to change how they design their existing ones. There's almost certainly a good reason for why the Commander products are designed the way they are, even if we aren't aware why.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
If memory serves me right, Wizards has actually printed cards in past Commander products with the intent to entice eternal players into buying these products (True-Name Nemesis, Unexpectedly Absent). That aside, I still agree with you 100% on everything else. Cards featured in a Commander product should be exclusively designed for Commander. It's the entire point of the product, and nowhere else will Wizards have the opportunity to utilize that design space in much the same sense that cards in Conspiracy sets should be designed around draft as nowhere else will Wizards be able to create cards of that kind (see Canal Dredger, Garbage Fire, etc.). Any Commander card's eternal applications should be a complete afterthought. The purpose of the product should be to please Commander players, not to please eternal ones.
With all of that said, I don't really buy into anything said in the opening post. Are there unique challenges when it comes to designing Commander specific decks? Sure. I'm not entirely sure what those constraints are, but I know they exist, and I know that Wizards is doing their damnedest to make the most out of their releases. They've chosen to print 56 new cards for a reason, whatever it may be, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that what they're doing is what they believe is best for their game.
If OP is upset that not enough space in Commander products is devoted to new cards, I would ask Wizards for more Commander products, not to change how they design their existing ones. There's almost certainly a good reason for why the Commander products are designed the way they are, even if we aren't aware why.
Not sure about Unexpectedly Absent but I'm pretty sure they came out afterwards and said that they didn't really mean for TNN to do what it did.
Lets be clear about one thing: these cards are not for Legacy or Vintage. They may be legal in those formats but they are not, will not be, and never have been designed with those formats in mind. So when looking at these products looking at them from the perspective is going to inevitably lead to disappointment.
If memory serves me right, Wizards has actually printed cards in past Commander products with the intent to entice eternal players into buying these products (True-Name Nemesis, Unexpectedly Absent). That aside, I still agree with you 100% on everything else. Cards featured in a Commander product should be exclusively designed for Commander. It's the entire point of the product, and nowhere else will Wizards have the opportunity to utilize that design space in much the same sense that cards in Conspiracy sets should be designed around draft as nowhere else will Wizards be able to create cards of that kind (see Canal Dredger, Garbage Fire, etc.). Any Commander card's eternal applications should be a complete afterthought. The purpose of the product should be to please Commander players, not to please eternal ones.
With all of that said, I don't really buy into anything said in the opening post. Are there unique challenges when it comes to designing Commander specific decks? Sure. I'm not entirely sure what those constraints are, but I know they exist, and I know that Wizards is doing their damnedest to make the most out of their releases. They've chosen to print 56 new cards for a reason, whatever it may be, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that what they're doing is what they believe is best for their game.
If OP is upset that not enough space in Commander products is devoted to new cards, I would ask Wizards for more Commander products, not to change how they design their existing ones. There's almost certainly a good reason for why the Commander products are designed the way they are, even if we aren't aware why.
Awesome, I agree with you completely that the new Commander cards should be designed with Commander in mind. That is my main worry and pretty much why I made this thread. My post is intended to be a shout out to WoTC in saying that pushing these to Vintage and Legacy players might be going too far. That also leads me to feel like maybe the 56 card limit isn't enough currently. I really like your idea of more commander products and that would naturally increase the ceiling for this number of new cards if they continued with 14 cards per deck but just had more decks.
I would welcome more things like Commander's Arsenal also! If this kind of product were more prevalent and also featured new cards, that would be great.
TLDR; WoTC shouldn't sell Commander as the place for new Vintage and Legacy cards if they're only going to have 56 slots for new cards per year, doing so is a disservice to 3 formats; increase the ceiling on this number so you can print more supplemental products that are additional sources for new cards that do not have to pass through the conceptual filters created by the draft environment or the Standard format.
They do not make cards in Commander products for Legacy or Vintage. They make them for Commander. Cards that are good for commander may occasionally be good for Legacy and Vintage.
They do not design cards for Legacy or Vintage. Cards just end up in them because of the rules about those formats. WOTC does not have the resources to dedicate design teams to making cards for Vintage and Legacy.
Containment Priest is a good commander card that happens to also be good in Vintage and Legacy. TNN was intended as a fun multiplayer card and was mis-evaluated for 1v1 play.
Cards like TNN have made them re-examine their products to make sure that they aren't printing cards that will be sought out by Legacy and Vintage players, as it made some decks unobtainable to commander players.
56 cards is a lot for this kind of product. Look at other preconstructed decks and tell me if you find one with more new cards.
Plus, many players (myself included) look forward to getting reprints.
The only thing I will agree about is that the lands in C17 suck. C16 had great lands and I wish this would have been the same. But I want reprints, not land cycles that should be in Standard.
Cards featured in a Commander product should be exclusively designed for Commander.
I play both EDH and Legacy, and I look to all products as potential card sources. I'd be pretty miffed if WotC stopped printing Commander playables in Standard products. Most of us would be.
You'll also notice that many of the best commander staples are cards that see play in other eternal formats too. If we limit Commander products to cards that are good in EDH but not in Legacy or Vintage, that’s hamstringing design imo.
I like how in the 1990s WotC just printed fun and interesting cards - and the players got to decide how to use them. I think nowadays they are trying too hard to sculpt and manipulate formats and archetypes.
Cards featured in a Commander product should be exclusively designed for Commander.
I play both EDH and Legacy, and I look to all products as potential card sources. I'd be pretty miffed if WotC stopped printing Commander playables in Standard products. Most of us would be.
You'll also notice that many of the best commander staples are cards that see play in other eternal formats too. If we limit Commander products to cards that are good in EDH but not in Legacy or Vintage, that’s hamstringing design imo.
I like how in the 1990s WotC just printed fun and interesting cards - and the players got to decide how to use them. I think nowadays they are trying too hard to sculpt and manipulate formats and archetypes.
I would also be disappointed if WoTC stopped printing Commander playables (reprints or otherweise) into the standard format - but only in this current paradigm of rationing cards to all formats via the largest quantity of printings.. through Standard...
Let's take a view at this from 1,000 feet up.
Those 56 new commander cards are VERY unique. They are special in the way that WoTC has listed their format legality and at their current quantity, 56 cards per year, is an unfortunate oversight of their value. This allotment of 56 cards doesn't have to cator to the concepts of the draft environment, the limited environment, the Standard format or even the Modern format! That is amazing isn't it? Those 56 cards are worth MORE to all of Magic's formats than their current level of usage indicates.
Like you said, crimhead, you "like how in the 1990s WotC just printed fun and interesting cards - and the players got to decide how to use them. I think nowadays they are trying too hard to sculpt and manipulate formats and archetypes" and I can relate. I've been around for a minute too and have the same fond memories of Magic's past. Those awesome aspects of Magic's past are unfortunately still there - in the past - as you are bringing to our awareness. What if we could have this back? Well we can actually, to an extent.
The 1,000 foot view of how WoTC chooses its rations to the Modern, Legacy, Vintage or Commander formats looks like a never-ending struggle. The struggle itself is, for those formats, finding the space for reprints/new cards in an environment, the Standard format, that just is not conducive to catoring to any other formats really. WoTC can't even put Counterspell into Standard. The design requirements for the draft environment also shape the design requirements for the Standard format and THAT is the entire problem with trying to cator to any other formats besides Standard, when printing cards in Standard-legal sets.
WoTC could better serve ALL of its formats if they made MORE products that BYPASS other formats, like how the 56 Commander cards bypass ALLLLLLLL of those roadblocks presented by Modern, Standard and drafting/limited.
Commander should have its own, larger, list of cards that bypass Standard and Modern. Commander products can be the homes for these kinds of printings.
Vintage & Legacy should also have their own place for new cards that can be printed that also skip the Standard and Modern formats. Looking at the Eternal, Iconic and M25 Masters series, WoTC should take this into consideration. They can extend this concept to the Modern Masters series too. This would breathe new life into at least 3 eternal formats and also make it much easier for Standard and Modern products to stand on their own and focus on their specific range of design. The pittance of Modern and Legacy viable cards we see come out of Standard is a slap to the face and understandably so, they just aren't very concerned with trying to do so. But there is a solution to please all.
Magic has become a much larger game since the age of "in the 1990s WotC just printed fun and interesting cards - and the players got to decide how to use them" and WoTC must continue twisting those knobs and dials of format-tuning otherwise the whole creation dies. It will die like a limb losing blood flow. Like a body, WoTC has shaped these formats to have a degree of, shall we say, "arterial flow" between them in the form of crossover card printings. But it's not enough.
It's high time to improve the current model and give the Modern, Eternal, Iconic and frankly ALL Masters series some "gravitas" like what Commander has and give all of these formats places for increased card design IN THE FORM OF NEW CARD PRINTINGS THAT CAN SKIP FORMATS.
Most of the time when we get big new eternal cards, it leads to *****ing about how it wrecked someone's $1000+ deck. Of course, you have to either print stuff that fills a weird format specific niche or insanely powerful cards to compete in eternal.
As someone who plays only commander I find that the biggest disservice comes from when they include cards that can be used in the eternal formats, which drives up the price or availability of one of the commander sets to be purchased because of 1 or 2 cards needed in another format. However, I feel like that if those non-commander players didn't buy the product too, then WOTC may not think that commander is a lucrative option and just not print it anymore.
All I do now is pre-order one of each commander set and be done with it. I learned my lesson long ago with the first commander sets and planeschase sets to just buy them anyways cause they are good for me no matter what.
As someone who plays only commander I find that the biggest disservice comes from when they include cards that can be used in the eternal formats, which drives up the price or availability of one of the commander sets to be purchased because of 1 or 2 cards needed in another format. However, I feel like that if those non-commander players didn't buy the product too, then WOTC may not think that commander is a lucrative option and just not print it anymore.
All I do now is pre-order one of each commander set and be done with it. I learned my lesson long ago with the first commander sets and planeschase sets to just buy them anyways cause they are good for me no matter what.
Hey man I believe I proposed a great solution (a few comments back) for this dilemma of crossover demand in other formats. let me know what you think
When it cones to lands C16 was the exception, not the rule. They said during C16 spoilers that they have a sort of rule against reprinting rare lands in the Commander decks. They broke that rule for C16 because they didn't want slow clunky mana bases interfering with how the decks are supposed to play.
In regards to the OP you have to remember that the primary goal of these decks is to be fun and provide a sort of jumping off point for new players looking to get into the format. Playability is the most important thing for them. What cards need reprinting and what cards will go in Legacy both take a backseat. The 56 rule might seem arbitrary but they are likely trying to conserve design space, force themselves to be more creative, and/or lighten their workload.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
56 new cards over 4 to 5 decks is plenty. Given a large chunk of the decks is still going be basic lands in alot of cases along with Sol ring and Command Tower. You'll get a couple rare commander cards, which say there's like 3-4 of those in a deck. For the bones of a deck, I am fine with it being useful reprints. Do we really need another land search card or is them just putting Kodama's Reachgood enough? I feel they generally do a good job of giving enough value to justify the price tag but leaving room to improve the deck and make it yours which most of us were going do anyways.
While it's unfortunate that a few of the commander products have skyrocketed in value making them difficult to get for casual players, that is an expection not the rule of the products. Majority of the sets I can still get around the base cost. You can also just buy the individual cards in most cases for your deck without breaking the bank outside of a few special cases. (Like Kaalia The Vast. I bought her single for 29 because screw paying 200 dollars for Heavenly inferno.) Given you're going make your own deck just getting the commander and sub commander usually is enough to get the job done.
Last year I knew I wanted make sure I had every partner combo just for future purposes(A mechanic I hope gets revisited in the next year or two.) and just preordered all 5 decks of them. I am glad I bought them early as two of the decks went up alot. I'd recommend just preorder whatever ones you are interested in or all of them just be safe. You can always unload them for as much as you paid. I am preordering all 4 though I might use some of them as a gift later.
In anycase I have little issue with how the commander products have been handled as I haven't ever not been able get the ones I want. I bought doubles of the ones last for gifts even without any grief a bit after they came out.
I haven't been on the forums since the Twitch merger as I never like being forced to do something I don't want to do...but more than I care about the money this website and Twitch make together, I care about the health of my favorite game. So yes, I am committed to this discussion! Please share your thoughts on this subject and how we could improve Commander sets, hopefully in the context of their coexistence with the Masters sets.
I mentioned it in the other thread but I'll mention it here. WotC should choose some cycle outaide whatever current one they have (say.. once every two year, whatever) and offer a non-draftable set for the express purpose of introducing new cards and reprinting old ones to fill in some of the demand present in some formats. Notably Legacy/Vintage but others as well if they prove necessary.
I'm not vehemently opposed to drafting per se. It has a place. I just feel that making every single set draftable hobbles WotC's ability to reprint very desirable cards (Storm mechanic) or explore mechanics that inherently break a drafting environment but not a constructed one. More importantly, it would offer both WotC and players a resource to draw from that won't inadvertently affect other product lines like Standard or Commander. In other words, if a card is expected to cause Commander precons (or any other precon) to be torn apart and sold piece meal, print it in the non-draft set.
Such wide spacing on the cycle might even allow for some extreme printings we would never see otherwise. A Commander-only set. A $2.50 Pauper pack set. Whatever. The different formats can manage their own bans and restrictions as appropriate.
Players were fine opening and playing non-draftable sets for years. There is no reason they can't do it now. At least with just one set that gets release once every two years or something.
The OP's premise and conclusion don't seem linked. The announcement that new (not supplemental-format specific) cards are entering the Eternal card pool is nothing new. I have personally never witnessed any WotC repressentative "pitching" the Commander-series product as a source of cards for Eternal players and repeatedly seen the opposite: Explanations that certain reprints would not be made in Commander-series decks to not give incentive to players outside the products target audience.
What is there outside of stating that the cards would be legal in Eternal formats but not other Constructed formats on the product page (which is purely informative)? Are there any links to WotC doing what is claimed here?
I mentioned it in the other thread but I'll mention it here. WotC should choose some cycle outaide whatever current one they have (say.. once every two year, whatever) and offer a non-draftable set for the express purpose of introducing new cards and reprinting old ones to fill in some of the demand present in some formats. Notably Legacy/Vintage but others as well if they prove necessary.
I'm not vehemently opposed to drafting per se. It has a place. I just feel that making every single set draftable hobbles WotC's ability to reprint very desirable cards (Storm mechanic) or explore mechanics that inherently break a drafting environment but not a constructed one. More importantly, it would offer both WotC and players a resource to draw from that won't inadvertently affect other product lines like Standard or Commander. In other words, if a card is expected to cause Commander precons (or any other precon) to be torn apart and sold piece meal, print it in the non-draft set.
Such wide spacing on the cycle might even allow for some extreme printings we would never see otherwise. A Commander-only set. A $2.50 Pauper pack set. Whatever. The different formats can manage their own bans and restrictions as appropriate.
Players were fine opening and playing non-draftable sets for years. There is no reason they can't do it now. At least with just one set that gets release once every two years or something.
So your proposing a "Legacy Arsenal"-kinda product? From a player's perspective kind of neat, but wouldn't this also undercut other products? If you follow the link above you also see that price-hiking is an issue. Further such a product would be a very direct influencing of the secondary market. As much as I personally do not care about customers that are primarily investors, I cannot help but feel for primary collectors that want to trust the monetary value anyway. It's not an undisputably good business decision to put it mildly.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I don't mind WotC print powerful Legacy cards in these precons. Cards are suppose to be put into decks, break apart, and made into decks again, they are meant to be free-flowing, just like most cards in Conspiracy could be used for drafting but also uses as regular cards.
I mentioned it in the other thread but I'll mention it here. WotC should choose some cycle outaide whatever current one they have (say.. once every two year, whatever) and offer a non-draftable set for the express purpose of introducing new cards and reprinting old ones to fill in some of the demand present in some formats. Notably Legacy/Vintage but others as well if they prove necessary.
I'm not vehemently opposed to drafting per se. It has a place. I just feel that making every single set draftable hobbles WotC's ability to reprint very desirable cards (Storm mechanic) or explore mechanics that inherently break a drafting environment but not a constructed one. More importantly, it would offer both WotC and players a resource to draw from that won't inadvertently affect other product lines like Standard or Commander. In other words, if a card is expected to cause Commander precons (or any other precon) to be torn apart and sold piece meal, print it in the non-draft set.
Such wide spacing on the cycle might even allow for some extreme printings we would never see otherwise. A Commander-only set. A $2.50 Pauper pack set. Whatever. The different formats can manage their own bans and restrictions as appropriate.
Players were fine opening and playing non-draftable sets for years. There is no reason they can't do it now. At least with just one set that gets release once every two years or something.
I don't see why storm is a problem for draft. It's usually not even especially good in draft (though iirc in MMA is was at least decent). Really I don't think any particular mechanics spring to mind that are hugely problematic for draft, except maybe certain cards like pack rat or whatever.
There are people that just buy packs and crack them, but (and no offense to those people) those people are idiots. I mean if you want to crack a pack occasionally just for lulz then whatever, but very few people are just buying packs left and right unless they're buying in bulk and reselling as singles. As long as a set is draftable, you can basically guarantee that you'll get a ton of packs opened and the cards will be available, rather than sitting in overpriced boosters that few people have motivation to buy. People bought the first sets because it was new and they didn't know any better. Printing a good new card in a randomized sealed product that no one wants to crack except stores would be horrible.
The other issue is that, if your set isn't draftable, then you're either going to have a lot of completely useless cards, your set is going to be tiny, or you're going to blow your load on reprints very very quickly. Idk how many cards in modern or whatever are desperate in need of reprinting, but it's not all THAT many. Nothing in standard is all that expensive, and legacy/vintage are always going to be expensive so long as the reserved list exist, so reprinting the cheaper cards doesn't help a ton. So then wtf are your other slots dedicated to? You can include some lower-priced but still played stuff, and some new stuff that might see play, but ultimately you've either got a set with maybe like 100 cards in it and you basically never get to do reprints again because you blew your load, or you've got a bunch of cards no one wants which exacerbates problem #1. As long as it's draftable, bam, you can include tons of chaff for drafting purposes with a few sprinkled-in value cards.
Also there's just really very little reason not to make it draftable. Even if it's not made for draft, people are still going to draft it.
I tried quoting three posts but I kept screwing up the formatting. Frustrating.
@SecretInfiltrator
That link isn't working for me. I think it's my phone though. I think I understand your post though.
I'm not proposing a pure reprint set like MM, I'm proposing a set with a mix of reprints and new cards specifically NOT for Standard and without draft constraints. Not like WotC feels like testing new cards for anything other than Standard and Commander so why not? Create an outlet for cards like Grapeshot, a 10 on the "burn scale" or create a better reprint avenue for cards like Flusterstorm.
Conspiracy, as mentioned is a nice set. I personally like it. But it's a very strong draft matters set and, as a result, about half the cards are downright useless outside of the set. This is on top of the chaff cards. Ice Age and Arabian Nights are my favorite sets, so what do I know, right?
@Cynerium_neo
Exactly, those decks are made to be taken apart and reassembled. Especially precons. Not the issue. The issue is when WotC has some really desirable card(s) in a precon which causes a price hike and/or scarcity on the product taking it out of the hands WotC, I think, intends it for. Don't you think it's a little bizarre WotC introduces say... Commander precons and one of those precons jumps to 150% of it's counterparts because of 1 or 2 cards? WotC has made no secret these precons generally aren't for "us". They reprinted the crap out of Commander 2017, but the damage was done.
@DirkGently
You have good points. I don't really expect WotC to even care. Just raising a point.
You talk about blowing through reprints and running out of cards. I think you glossed over the point of printing such a set on a different cycle. E.g. Every two years. Make it three years. Doesn't matter. The point is to feed desired cards into formats that can't be worked into the normal set cycle.
In all honesty, I simply picked Storm since it's a 10 on its own scale (and on burn?!). I get the scale is for Standard though so I should have made it less of an example and picked a different mechanic. However, my point still stands. There are a handful mechanics I would like to see WotC explore but won't because of Standard, flavor, power level, draft, whatever. Some cards just should be reprinted. I prefer to see Lightning Bolt instead of some nerfed version because of draft.
As for draft. Please don't play that game that not having draft equates to completely randomized packs. You and I both know that's not true. The feel bad of cracking 8 cards with no rares was always a factor and WotC had been trying to "fix" packs in some way since at least Chronicles, probably as early as Arabian. I don't remember when they started having that "guarantee", but I recall it was there by Mirage at least.
What I'm saying is, the design constraint of draft clearly forces rarity shifts of cards and card choices and power level shifts of new cards. What percentage of cards shifted up vs down vs stayed the same? If more reprints went up or down during reprints, why? What changed? How does Draft influence new card design? The chaff cards are obvious. But what about the rares? What was the impact there? In essence, what kind of power balancing was done in consideration of draft?
I was really surprised at how tame Unstable seemed compared to Unglued and Unhinged. Lots of cool and twisted ideas appropriate for an Un-set. But I definitely got the sensation that many of the cards in the set, with very little modification, would work just fine in one legal format or another. I think drafting had a lot to do with this design decision. Even the box encourages drafting. Says so right on the back of the booster box, twice.
That's all I'm saying. Maybe, once in a while, Wizards doesn't need to print a draftable set. That maybe, the players gnashing their teeth and pulling their hair and investors price gouging* for highly sought after cards but not printable in almost any set doesn't need to happen if they just print a selection of cards every so often without regard to draft or even format. Doesn't have to be a 300 card set, maybe not even a 100 card set, but defenitely more than the 5 from FTV or the piddling offerings from Standard or Commander printings.
* I'm all for fair prices that are amiable to the game just not the price gouging some investors and speculators like to do.
You have good points. I don't really expect WotC to even care. Just raising a point.
You talk about blowing through reprints and running out of cards. I think you glossed over the point of printing such a set on a different cycle. E.g. Every two years. Make it three years. Doesn't matter. The point is to feed desired cards into formats that can't be worked into the normal set cycle.
In all honesty, I simply picked Storm since it's a 10 on its own scale (and on burn?!). I get the scale is for Standard though so I should have made it less of an example and picked a different mechanic. However, my point still stands. There are a handful mechanics I would like to see WotC explore but won't because of Standard, flavor, power level, draft, whatever. Some cards just should be reprinted. I prefer to see Lightning Bolt instead of some nerfed version because of draft.
As for draft. Please don't play that game that not having draft equates to completely randomized packs. You and I both know that's not true. The feel bad of cracking 8 cards with no rares was always a factor and WotC had been trying to "fix" packs in some way since at least Chronicles, probably as early as Arabian. I don't remember when they started having that "guarantee", but I recall it was there by Mirage at least.
What I'm saying is, the design constraint of draft clearly forces rarity shifts of cards and card choices and power level shifts of new cards. What percentage of cards shifted up vs down vs stayed the same? If more reprints went up or down during reprints, why? What changed? How does Draft influence new card design? The chaff cards are obvious. But what about the rares? What was the impact there? In essence, what kind of power balancing was done in consideration of draft?
I was really surprised at how tame Unstable seemed compared to Unglued and Unhinged. Lots of cool and twisted ideas appropriate for an Un-set. But I definitely got the sensation that many of the cards in the set, with very little modification, would work just fine in one legal format or another. I think drafting had a lot to do with this design decision. Even the box encourages drafting. Says so right on the back of the booster box, twice.
That's all I'm saying. Maybe, once in a while, Wizards doesn't need to print a draftable set. That maybe, the players gnashing their teeth and pulling their hair and investors price gouging* for highly sought after cards but not printable in almost any set doesn't need to happen if they just print a selection of cards every so often without regard to draft or even format. Doesn't have to be a 300 card set, maybe not even a 100 card set, but defenitely more than the 5 from FTV or the piddling offerings from Standard or Commander printings.
* I'm all for fair prices that are amiable to the game just not the price gouging some investors and speculators like to do.
standard is absolutely the reason why certain busted cards (i.e. TNN) aren't printed in standard sets. Limited may have some minor limitations, but wotc doesn't seem to have much problem printing insanely powerful limited cards in rare slots. Does limited move the uncommon/common rarities around? Yes, definitely, but c'mon, commons and uncommons are, for the most part, only a few dollars each, so they aren't really the main problem for barrier to entry. No one is seriously concerned about the price of signets. And lightning bolt was printed as recently as MM2 - good efficient cards aren't really a problem for limited as long as the colors are fairly balanced with similarly powerful cards in other colors - cube is popular and it's often nothing BUT busted cards. I think you highly underestimate the self-regulating nature of limited. Even if they printed something busted, like jitte, as long as there was decent artifact removal in the set it wouldn't be a big problem. The only times limited formats have sucked because of powerful cards, it's usually been because wotc doesn't include good answers to them in the set. As long as the set is built well for draft, color balanced and with good answers, you can reprint whatever the hell you want. Even TNN would probably be ok if there were some global -1/-1s in the set at common or something.
unstable was built for draft because it gives you something to DO with the damn cards. sure, ashnod's coupon is kind of funny, but it's a waste of cardboard because it's a one-time joke with no replay value. Unstable had the good sense to (at least attempt to) print a set that gave you something built in to do with the cards, besides just a joke. It's a natural fit for that sort of thing, since it means they can be self-contained and don't need balancing outside the draft environment. I really have no idea what kind of weirdo would actually buy packs of unhinged or unglued for anything other than the land. Once you've seen the cards and had a laugh, what's the point if they aren't actually fun to play with? Oh boy, I got a blacker lotus...that will be great to have one stupid, one-sided game that isn't actually any fun. That's so much better than an augment creature, that might actually be fun to play with but could theoretically exist in black border. Damn you, unstable, for ruining boring unplayable joke cards by actually being interesting to, y'know, PLAY with!
At the end of the day, the problem with any kind of randomized, or even precon, product is that, unless it's literally an entire competitive deck, it's going to have a bunch of crap people don't actually want. See the planeswalker decks - the pws themselves go for nearly the cost of the deck, because the rest is trash and retailers know they can price gouge because no one but a retailer is willing to buy the decks and sell them for parts. See also the TNN debacle. Making a set draftable guarantees that lots of cards will be opened by non-retailers who will be happy to sell/trade them for a reasonable price. The reason reprints are scarce and new powerful legacy cards are unusual is not because of draft. It's because standard won't support them, and wotc doesn't want to excessively reprint things (see the short print runs and high cost of the MM sets) - your definition of "excessive" may differ, of course. If wotc actually wanted to make modern staples $5 or less, you can bet your ass that putting them in a draftable set would be the best way to do that.
You're still hung up on reprints and Standard. I'm not even suggesting a non-draft Standard set. I'm literally suggesting a non-Standard non-draft set that does not feed into Standard. Who gives a flip if TNN is busted in Standard if it goes into a set not intended for it?
I think at this point, I would just agree to disagree. I don't think this kind of topic is worth getting worked up over.
Hello all,
I've noticed that this year especially, WoTC has been pitching the 56 original cards released in the 4 new Commander 2017 decks as being legal in Vintage and Legacy. It's gotten people especially excited this time 'round I feel, due to the recently announced return of legacy to the Pro Tour. There are some factors going on here that make me think that WoTC is trying to do too much - with so little.
56 Cards may not be enough dedication of design space for even the Commander product, let alone Vintage and Legacy. Too much canvas is trying to be covered with the amount of paint you've got to work with here, WoTC.
After having seen the rather lackluster list of reprints this year for C17, it became aware to me (I think) that this product's hit-and-miss quality over the years is a direct result of the top-down design that this product suffers as a result of this seemingly arbitrary 'rule of 56' as I'll call it. The 56 new cards.
After having seen the 56 originals first and the reprints second, I got the impression that the teams of people who were working on this product would have had their effort better served by not being "put into a box" - a 56 card box - and could have put together a better end result for us if they had more room for freedom of design.
Select the theme for the year's commander product. Next, select the reprints you need to target. Now that you have a framework of reprints, fill in the gaps with new cards that we as players will need to complete the theme. Then give us the commander staples, new and old. This is also your space for finishing land cycles as well - something that is rarely touched on. A few 56 cards is not enough design space to accomplish this task. It is also not enough design space to try to balance said card's power levels for the sake of Vintage and Legacy.
The design teams for Commander products should also be able to use one of the slots for a "new card" to be a functional reprint of an old card if the equivalent reprint isn't practical. This allows for more flexibility. This is ok in the world of EDH players because we work with singletons, we appreciate having functional reprints if it's done the right way. A good example for C17 would have been to select the tribe, pick the reprints of all of the necessary tribal related effects, wherever those tribal aspects end that need to be filled in to flush out the tribe's synergy/power is where you drop a new card - to fill that unoccupied space. Currently this didn't happen because that "new" card slot is trying to serve too many purposes and the end result is this batch of tribe decks with holes in their synergy, like a lack of lord-effects
Currently a customer looks at the Commander product and they can expect to see it as a place for: commander staples, commander-specific-reprints, reprints for the specific theme(s) of the year and (among other things) also a place of design space where we see absolutely crucial lands come from.
Now we're approaching the perilous path of expecting much more from this Commander product it would seem, we're coming to expect the reprints and originals to be the kinds of cards that are otherwise too powerful to be printed into Standard or even into modern and by virtue of the product these cards are in, Commander, we'd expect some of the reprints and new cards to be on that level of power.
I think WoTC can deliver us a much better Commander product if they allow for a broader design space by dropping the 56-card-albatross from around their neck. We can get better products for Vintage and Legacy players too if they didn't have any new cards being printed put through the filter of EDH. Use the Eternal, Iconic and M25 Masters series to introduce new cards dedicated for Vintage and Legacy, shape that into something independent for those formats because they certainly need it.
Please share your thoughts on any of the subjects I touched on or how you think WoTC could improve the Commander product. Even if you disagree with me please let's have this conversation because if it's a big enough conversation it can become noticed! Thanks.
EDIT:
TLDR; WoTC shouldn't sell Commander as the place for new Vintage and Legacy cards if they're only going to have 56 slots for new cards per year, doing so is a disservice to 3 formats; increase the ceiling on this number so you can print more supplemental products that are additional sources for new cards that do not have to pass through the conceptual filters created by the draft environment or the Standard format.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
As for looking at the 56 cards from a commander perspective I think its fine. It's important to keep both design space and reprint space conserved. And that's coming from someone who wants cards to be cheap in price and wild in effect. Remember that these are supposed to be intro products. The idea is that new commander players can pick these up, be reasonably competitive if not in an awful meta, and then have room to grow the decks once they have an idea of what the deck could be and what they want to do. They're not supposed to be fully formed. And every time they throw in a pricey reprint they risk the deck being bought up and pulled apart like the Jeleva deck from years ago. Which drives the price of the sealed deck up making it hard to get it into the hands of the target audience. I think the system they have is fine. Certainly this year's offerings are not up to last year's but I don't think that's really a fair comparison.
With all of that said, I don't really buy into anything said in the opening post. Are there unique challenges when it comes to designing Commander specific decks? Sure. I'm not entirely sure what those constraints are, but I know they exist, and I know that Wizards is doing their damnedest to make the most out of their releases. They've chosen to print 56 new cards for a reason, whatever it may be, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that what they're doing is what they believe is best for their game.
If OP is upset that not enough space in Commander products is devoted to new cards, I would ask Wizards for more Commander products, not to change how they design their existing ones. There's almost certainly a good reason for why the Commander products are designed the way they are, even if we aren't aware why.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Not sure about Unexpectedly Absent but I'm pretty sure they came out afterwards and said that they didn't really mean for TNN to do what it did.
I am not saying that they design these cards for eternal formats far from it, however there is always one that seems to poke its head out.
Awesome, I agree with you completely that the new Commander cards should be designed with Commander in mind. That is my main worry and pretty much why I made this thread. My post is intended to be a shout out to WoTC in saying that pushing these to Vintage and Legacy players might be going too far. That also leads me to feel like maybe the 56 card limit isn't enough currently. I really like your idea of more commander products and that would naturally increase the ceiling for this number of new cards if they continued with 14 cards per deck but just had more decks.
I would welcome more things like Commander's Arsenal also! If this kind of product were more prevalent and also featured new cards, that would be great.
TLDR; WoTC shouldn't sell Commander as the place for new Vintage and Legacy cards if they're only going to have 56 slots for new cards per year, doing so is a disservice to 3 formats; increase the ceiling on this number so you can print more supplemental products that are additional sources for new cards that do not have to pass through the conceptual filters created by the draft environment or the Standard format.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
They do not design cards for Legacy or Vintage. Cards just end up in them because of the rules about those formats. WOTC does not have the resources to dedicate design teams to making cards for Vintage and Legacy.
Containment Priest is a good commander card that happens to also be good in Vintage and Legacy. TNN was intended as a fun multiplayer card and was mis-evaluated for 1v1 play.
Cards like TNN have made them re-examine their products to make sure that they aren't printing cards that will be sought out by Legacy and Vintage players, as it made some decks unobtainable to commander players.
56 cards is a lot for this kind of product. Look at other preconstructed decks and tell me if you find one with more new cards.
Plus, many players (myself included) look forward to getting reprints.
The only thing I will agree about is that the lands in C17 suck. C16 had great lands and I wish this would have been the same. But I want reprints, not land cycles that should be in Standard.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
You'll also notice that many of the best commander staples are cards that see play in other eternal formats too. If we limit Commander products to cards that are good in EDH but not in Legacy or Vintage, that’s hamstringing design imo.
I like how in the 1990s WotC just printed fun and interesting cards - and the players got to decide how to use them. I think nowadays they are trying too hard to sculpt and manipulate formats and archetypes.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I would also be disappointed if WoTC stopped printing Commander playables (reprints or otherweise) into the standard format - but only in this current paradigm of rationing cards to all formats via the largest quantity of printings.. through Standard...
Let's take a view at this from 1,000 feet up.
Those 56 new commander cards are VERY unique. They are special in the way that WoTC has listed their format legality and at their current quantity, 56 cards per year, is an unfortunate oversight of their value. This allotment of 56 cards doesn't have to cator to the concepts of the draft environment, the limited environment, the Standard format or even the Modern format! That is amazing isn't it? Those 56 cards are worth MORE to all of Magic's formats than their current level of usage indicates.
Like you said, crimhead, you "like how in the 1990s WotC just printed fun and interesting cards - and the players got to decide how to use them. I think nowadays they are trying too hard to sculpt and manipulate formats and archetypes" and I can relate. I've been around for a minute too and have the same fond memories of Magic's past. Those awesome aspects of Magic's past are unfortunately still there - in the past - as you are bringing to our awareness. What if we could have this back? Well we can actually, to an extent.
The 1,000 foot view of how WoTC chooses its rations to the Modern, Legacy, Vintage or Commander formats looks like a never-ending struggle. The struggle itself is, for those formats, finding the space for reprints/new cards in an environment, the Standard format, that just is not conducive to catoring to any other formats really. WoTC can't even put Counterspell into Standard. The design requirements for the draft environment also shape the design requirements for the Standard format and THAT is the entire problem with trying to cator to any other formats besides Standard, when printing cards in Standard-legal sets.
WoTC could better serve ALL of its formats if they made MORE products that BYPASS other formats, like how the 56 Commander cards bypass ALLLLLLLL of those roadblocks presented by Modern, Standard and drafting/limited.
Commander should have its own, larger, list of cards that bypass Standard and Modern. Commander products can be the homes for these kinds of printings.
Vintage & Legacy should also have their own place for new cards that can be printed that also skip the Standard and Modern formats. Looking at the Eternal, Iconic and M25 Masters series, WoTC should take this into consideration. They can extend this concept to the Modern Masters series too. This would breathe new life into at least 3 eternal formats and also make it much easier for Standard and Modern products to stand on their own and focus on their specific range of design. The pittance of Modern and Legacy viable cards we see come out of Standard is a slap to the face and understandably so, they just aren't very concerned with trying to do so. But there is a solution to please all.
Magic has become a much larger game since the age of "in the 1990s WotC just printed fun and interesting cards - and the players got to decide how to use them" and WoTC must continue twisting those knobs and dials of format-tuning otherwise the whole creation dies. It will die like a limb losing blood flow. Like a body, WoTC has shaped these formats to have a degree of, shall we say, "arterial flow" between them in the form of crossover card printings. But it's not enough.
It's high time to improve the current model and give the Modern, Eternal, Iconic and frankly ALL Masters series some "gravitas" like what Commander has and give all of these formats places for increased card design IN THE FORM OF NEW CARD PRINTINGS THAT CAN SKIP FORMATS.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
All I do now is pre-order one of each commander set and be done with it. I learned my lesson long ago with the first commander sets and planeschase sets to just buy them anyways cause they are good for me no matter what.
BURWGSliver Hivelord's alt wincon deck at Maze's EndBURWG
GWBSidar Kondo and Ikra Shidiq likes big butts
RUMizzix of the Izmagnus Super ThiefRU
BURWGGeneral Tazri, The Megazord AllyBURWG
BURJeleva Mill and Kill BUR
BRGrenzo's get out from under that deck!BR
WUG Roon's Enchanted Evening (enchantment deck) WUG
BUG The Undersea World of Tasigur CousteauBUG
BWGAnafenza, Counter QueenBWG
Hey man I believe I proposed a great solution (a few comments back) for this dilemma of crossover demand in other formats. let me know what you think
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
In regards to the OP you have to remember that the primary goal of these decks is to be fun and provide a sort of jumping off point for new players looking to get into the format. Playability is the most important thing for them. What cards need reprinting and what cards will go in Legacy both take a backseat. The 56 rule might seem arbitrary but they are likely trying to conserve design space, force themselves to be more creative, and/or lighten their workload.
While it's unfortunate that a few of the commander products have skyrocketed in value making them difficult to get for casual players, that is an expection not the rule of the products. Majority of the sets I can still get around the base cost. You can also just buy the individual cards in most cases for your deck without breaking the bank outside of a few special cases. (Like Kaalia The Vast. I bought her single for 29 because screw paying 200 dollars for Heavenly inferno.) Given you're going make your own deck just getting the commander and sub commander usually is enough to get the job done.
Last year I knew I wanted make sure I had every partner combo just for future purposes(A mechanic I hope gets revisited in the next year or two.) and just preordered all 5 decks of them. I am glad I bought them early as two of the decks went up alot. I'd recommend just preorder whatever ones you are interested in or all of them just be safe. You can always unload them for as much as you paid. I am preordering all 4 though I might use some of them as a gift later.
In anycase I have little issue with how the commander products have been handled as I haven't ever not been able get the ones I want. I bought doubles of the ones last for gifts even without any grief a bit after they came out.
I haven't been on the forums since the Twitch merger as I never like being forced to do something I don't want to do...but more than I care about the money this website and Twitch make together, I care about the health of my favorite game. So yes, I am committed to this discussion! Please share your thoughts on this subject and how we could improve Commander sets, hopefully in the context of their coexistence with the Masters sets.
Thank you,
Shea
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
I mentioned it in the other thread but I'll mention it here. WotC should choose some cycle outaide whatever current one they have (say.. once every two year, whatever) and offer a non-draftable set for the express purpose of introducing new cards and reprinting old ones to fill in some of the demand present in some formats. Notably Legacy/Vintage but others as well if they prove necessary.
I'm not vehemently opposed to drafting per se. It has a place. I just feel that making every single set draftable hobbles WotC's ability to reprint very desirable cards (Storm mechanic) or explore mechanics that inherently break a drafting environment but not a constructed one. More importantly, it would offer both WotC and players a resource to draw from that won't inadvertently affect other product lines like Standard or Commander. In other words, if a card is expected to cause Commander precons (or any other precon) to be torn apart and sold piece meal, print it in the non-draft set.
Such wide spacing on the cycle might even allow for some extreme printings we would never see otherwise. A Commander-only set. A $2.50 Pauper pack set. Whatever. The different formats can manage their own bans and restrictions as appropriate.
Players were fine opening and playing non-draftable sets for years. There is no reason they can't do it now. At least with just one set that gets release once every two years or something.
What is there outside of stating that the cards would be legal in Eternal formats but not other Constructed formats on the product page (which is purely informative)? Are there any links to WotC doing what is claimed here?
So your proposing a "Legacy Arsenal"-kinda product? From a player's perspective kind of neat, but wouldn't this also undercut other products? If you follow the link above you also see that price-hiking is an issue. Further such a product would be a very direct influencing of the secondary market. As much as I personally do not care about customers that are primarily investors, I cannot help but feel for primary collectors that want to trust the monetary value anyway. It's not an undisputably good business decision to put it mildly.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
There are people that just buy packs and crack them, but (and no offense to those people) those people are idiots. I mean if you want to crack a pack occasionally just for lulz then whatever, but very few people are just buying packs left and right unless they're buying in bulk and reselling as singles. As long as a set is draftable, you can basically guarantee that you'll get a ton of packs opened and the cards will be available, rather than sitting in overpriced boosters that few people have motivation to buy. People bought the first sets because it was new and they didn't know any better. Printing a good new card in a randomized sealed product that no one wants to crack except stores would be horrible.
The other issue is that, if your set isn't draftable, then you're either going to have a lot of completely useless cards, your set is going to be tiny, or you're going to blow your load on reprints very very quickly. Idk how many cards in modern or whatever are desperate in need of reprinting, but it's not all THAT many. Nothing in standard is all that expensive, and legacy/vintage are always going to be expensive so long as the reserved list exist, so reprinting the cheaper cards doesn't help a ton. So then wtf are your other slots dedicated to? You can include some lower-priced but still played stuff, and some new stuff that might see play, but ultimately you've either got a set with maybe like 100 cards in it and you basically never get to do reprints again because you blew your load, or you've got a bunch of cards no one wants which exacerbates problem #1. As long as it's draftable, bam, you can include tons of chaff for drafting purposes with a few sprinkled-in value cards.
Also there's just really very little reason not to make it draftable. Even if it's not made for draft, people are still going to draft it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
@SecretInfiltrator
That link isn't working for me. I think it's my phone though. I think I understand your post though.
I'm not proposing a pure reprint set like MM, I'm proposing a set with a mix of reprints and new cards specifically NOT for Standard and without draft constraints. Not like WotC feels like testing new cards for anything other than Standard and Commander so why not? Create an outlet for cards like Grapeshot, a 10 on the "burn scale" or create a better reprint avenue for cards like Flusterstorm.
Conspiracy, as mentioned is a nice set. I personally like it. But it's a very strong draft matters set and, as a result, about half the cards are downright useless outside of the set. This is on top of the chaff cards. Ice Age and Arabian Nights are my favorite sets, so what do I know, right?
@Cynerium_neo
Exactly, those decks are made to be taken apart and reassembled. Especially precons. Not the issue. The issue is when WotC has some really desirable card(s) in a precon which causes a price hike and/or scarcity on the product taking it out of the hands WotC, I think, intends it for. Don't you think it's a little bizarre WotC introduces say... Commander precons and one of those precons jumps to 150% of it's counterparts because of 1 or 2 cards? WotC has made no secret these precons generally aren't for "us". They reprinted the crap out of Commander 2017, but the damage was done.
@DirkGently
You have good points. I don't really expect WotC to even care. Just raising a point.
You talk about blowing through reprints and running out of cards. I think you glossed over the point of printing such a set on a different cycle. E.g. Every two years. Make it three years. Doesn't matter. The point is to feed desired cards into formats that can't be worked into the normal set cycle.
In all honesty, I simply picked Storm since it's a 10 on its own scale (and on burn?!). I get the scale is for Standard though so I should have made it less of an example and picked a different mechanic. However, my point still stands. There are a handful mechanics I would like to see WotC explore but won't because of Standard, flavor, power level, draft, whatever. Some cards just should be reprinted. I prefer to see Lightning Bolt instead of some nerfed version because of draft.
As for draft. Please don't play that game that not having draft equates to completely randomized packs. You and I both know that's not true. The feel bad of cracking 8 cards with no rares was always a factor and WotC had been trying to "fix" packs in some way since at least Chronicles, probably as early as Arabian. I don't remember when they started having that "guarantee", but I recall it was there by Mirage at least.
What I'm saying is, the design constraint of draft clearly forces rarity shifts of cards and card choices and power level shifts of new cards. What percentage of cards shifted up vs down vs stayed the same? If more reprints went up or down during reprints, why? What changed? How does Draft influence new card design? The chaff cards are obvious. But what about the rares? What was the impact there? In essence, what kind of power balancing was done in consideration of draft?
I was really surprised at how tame Unstable seemed compared to Unglued and Unhinged. Lots of cool and twisted ideas appropriate for an Un-set. But I definitely got the sensation that many of the cards in the set, with very little modification, would work just fine in one legal format or another. I think drafting had a lot to do with this design decision. Even the box encourages drafting. Says so right on the back of the booster box, twice.
That's all I'm saying. Maybe, once in a while, Wizards doesn't need to print a draftable set. That maybe, the players gnashing their teeth and pulling their hair and investors price gouging* for highly sought after cards but not printable in almost any set doesn't need to happen if they just print a selection of cards every so often without regard to draft or even format. Doesn't have to be a 300 card set, maybe not even a 100 card set, but defenitely more than the 5 from FTV or the piddling offerings from Standard or Commander printings.
* I'm all for fair prices that are amiable to the game just not the price gouging some investors and speculators like to do.
When I wrote:
I mean, "set flavor, power level within the set, draft...." Power level within any particular format isn't my point.
unstable was built for draft because it gives you something to DO with the damn cards. sure, ashnod's coupon is kind of funny, but it's a waste of cardboard because it's a one-time joke with no replay value. Unstable had the good sense to (at least attempt to) print a set that gave you something built in to do with the cards, besides just a joke. It's a natural fit for that sort of thing, since it means they can be self-contained and don't need balancing outside the draft environment. I really have no idea what kind of weirdo would actually buy packs of unhinged or unglued for anything other than the land. Once you've seen the cards and had a laugh, what's the point if they aren't actually fun to play with? Oh boy, I got a blacker lotus...that will be great to have one stupid, one-sided game that isn't actually any fun. That's so much better than an augment creature, that might actually be fun to play with but could theoretically exist in black border. Damn you, unstable, for ruining boring unplayable joke cards by actually being interesting to, y'know, PLAY with!
At the end of the day, the problem with any kind of randomized, or even precon, product is that, unless it's literally an entire competitive deck, it's going to have a bunch of crap people don't actually want. See the planeswalker decks - the pws themselves go for nearly the cost of the deck, because the rest is trash and retailers know they can price gouge because no one but a retailer is willing to buy the decks and sell them for parts. See also the TNN debacle. Making a set draftable guarantees that lots of cards will be opened by non-retailers who will be happy to sell/trade them for a reasonable price. The reason reprints are scarce and new powerful legacy cards are unusual is not because of draft. It's because standard won't support them, and wotc doesn't want to excessively reprint things (see the short print runs and high cost of the MM sets) - your definition of "excessive" may differ, of course. If wotc actually wanted to make modern staples $5 or less, you can bet your ass that putting them in a draftable set would be the best way to do that.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I think at this point, I would just agree to disagree. I don't think this kind of topic is worth getting worked up over.