I am actually more pleased by this ruling than disappointed. I would have played this general even if it had been just a Morphling in Grixis, and didn’t need all the extra hate from being labeled a “combo” general. Besides, doing the combo enough times gets tired, and then dialing back from there never seems like something I want to do.
Heck, it might get boring just tutoring for Aetherling every game, but at least there is more to it after that.
Super agree. Really glad that combo doesn't work. Mairsil is really interesting, it'd be a damn shame if she ended up in the arcum dagsson camp of "cannot be allowed to live". Quicksilver elemental might actually be a fun way to use the ability fairly (although as mentioned it can still go infinite with it, it's just harder). And there are probably still other combos. It's really hard to make a commander so open-ended without it being broken is some stupid way.
I am actually more pleased by this ruling than disappointed. I would have played this general even if it had been just a Morphling in Grixis, and didn’t need all the extra hate from being labeled a “combo” general. Besides, doing the combo enough times gets tired, and then dialing back from there never seems like something I want to do.
Heck, it might get boring just tutoring for Aetherling every game, but at least there is more to it after that.
I also agree. As a deck builder, I prefer to start with something that is clearly less than optimal, but then try to push it as hard as it will go. It would be a shame if Mairsil ended up with the "top tier" stigma.
All that said, the ruling as it stands is still anything but clear to me.
I would also love to do something energy-themed, but as is the case with most block-specific mechanics, there just aren't enough options that synergies with Mairsil over Marchesa.
So we get a super interesting, unique open ended commander and the first thing all of you do is to push it to the most boring optimized instawin versions possible.
Gotta love MtGS.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"People are the worst. The worst thing about music is that people play it." - Mike Patton
According to Petro each additional copied ability does not have the once per turn restriction. Which makes sense to me.
When it comes to rules interactions, random MTGS poster doesn't trump rules manager no matter how well reasoned the argument is. Until Eli changes his ruling, clarifies his ruling, or something is rewritten to be clearer (either errata on Mairsil or an edit to the CR), I would follow that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
According to Petro each additional copied ability does not have the once per turn restriction. Which makes sense to me.
When it comes to rules interactions, random MTGS poster doesn't trump rules manager no matter how well reasoned the argument is. Until Eli changes his ruling, clarifies his ruling, or something is rewritten to be clearer (either errata on Mairsil or an edit to the CR), I would follow that.
Allow me to get a clearer picture/wording, so I can post this at the top of this thread:
1) So if Mairsil uses Quicksilver's ability on himself, he could reload his abilities, but maintains once-per-turn restriction.
2) Quicksilver/Kraj can gain Mairsil's abilities, then it won't have restrictions?
According to Petro each additional copied ability does not have the once per turn restriction. Which makes sense to me.
When it comes to rules interactions, random MTGS poster doesn't trump rules manager no matter how well reasoned the argument is. Until Eli changes his ruling, clarifies his ruling, or something is rewritten to be clearer (either errata on Mairsil or an edit to the CR), I would follow that.
If the rules manager told us that Mountains tap for U, would that make it so? I'm obviously exaggerating a good deal to create a less subtle example, but the fact remains that what the rules manager has said appears to be in direct conflict with the CR and the text of the card and the available precedent info on how copied abilities behave. In many regards, Eli's ruling actually makes it LESS clear how the hell this is meant to work, as the situation is now "the CR indicates it should work like so and so, except for Mairsil because the rules manager said it's like this instead," resulting in what comes across as a very bizarre directive to ignore the CR and text as written.
Without Quicksilver's help blink is gonna be essential else it's gonna be a pain in the ass caging cards. We'll probably need to resort to stuff like Ghostly Flicker and Nephalia Smuggler despite being slow or one-shot. Also a more control-like play with abilities to play on each opponent's turns, which needs more untap effects caged.
According to Petro each additional copied ability does not have the once per turn restriction. Which makes sense to me.
When it comes to rules interactions, random MTGS poster doesn't trump rules manager no matter how well reasoned the argument is. Until Eli changes his ruling, clarifies his ruling, or something is rewritten to be clearer (either errata on Mairsil or an edit to the CR), I would follow that.
Allow me to get a clearer picture/wording, so I can post this at the top of this thread:
1) So if Mairsil uses Quicksilver's ability on himself, he could reload his abilities, but maintains once-per-turn restriction.
2) Quicksilver/Kraj can gain Mairsil's abilities, then it won't have restrictions?
Evidently, the abilities on Marisil always have the "once per turn" restriction, even if they are copied. So whether he cages Quicksilver or a Quicksilver in play copies him, the abilities are still once per turn. So, activating that ability gives you more instances of each ability, but each one can only be activated once.
My only remaining question is whether the copying of an ability that has already been used carries with it its "used up" status. That will determine whether you can go "infinite" or not. Because the quicksilver activation will copy itself, the question is whether you can use it again. I'm not sure on that one.
If the rules manager told us that Mountains tap for U, would that make it so? I'm obviously exaggerating a good deal to create a less subtle example, but the fact remains that what the rules manager has said appears to be in direct conflict with the CR and the text of the card and the available precedent info on how copied abilities behave. In many regards, Eli's ruling actually makes it LESS clear how the hell this is meant to work, as the situation is now "the CR indicates it should work like so and so, except for Mairsil because the rules manager said it's like this instead," resulting in what comes across as a very bizarre directive to ignore the CR and text as written.
I agree, which is why I'm hoping for clarification one way or another. Either Eli further explains his reasoning, Mairsil gets errata (has precedent), or there's a rules change (we already know there's at least one CR change coming with this set RE: phasing and rules changes accompanying product releases are common, so that's not out of the question). That doesn't change the fact that the rules manager's vote has more sway than an anonymous internet poster. When it comes to rules issues, Eli does have the ability to make a final decision. The fact that he went against what the rules seem to say in this case is a problem and potential point of conflict that needs to be resolved.
My only remaining question is whether the copying of an ability that has already been used carries with it its "used up" status. That will determine whether you can go "infinite" or not. Because the quicksilver activation will copy itself, the question is whether you can use it again. I'm not sure on that one.
It won't carry "used up" status. Whether or not something has been used isn't a copiable characteristic. That exact situation has existed in the rules since at least 95, when you could Clone your Walking Wall, and has always worked the same way (that I can remember - definitely the way it's worked for many years now). Also explicitly confirmed by Eli here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Allow me to get a clearer picture/wording, so I can post this at the top of this thread:
1) So if Mairsil uses Quicksilver's ability on himself, he could reload his abilities, but maintains once-per-turn restriction.
2) Quicksilver/Kraj can gain Mairsil's abilities, then it won't have restrictions?
Evidently, the abilities on Marisil always have the "once per turn" restriction, even if they are copied. So whether he cages Quicksilver or a Quicksilver in play copies him, the abilities are still once per turn. So, activating that ability gives you more instances of each ability, but each one can only be activated once.
My only remaining question is whether the copying of an ability that has already been used carries with it its "used up" status. That will determine whether you can go "infinite" or not. Because the quicksilver activation will copy itself, the question is whether you can use it again. I'm not sure on that one.
I kinda picture Mairsil as a "gunslinger", so each time he uses up an ability I takes a "bullet counter" off his magazine.
My main concern was to protect Mairsil. Here are my choices (I didn't saw those cards in previous pages of this thread): Skywing Aven Thalakos Scout ephemeron
Aetherling is great, but to protect mairsil, you need one U
From my point of view it allows to protect Mairsil for a "free" cost (as discarding a good target for the next mairsil play dosn't seems to be a big deal...)
My other concern was to handle weenies / aggro decks. For the moment I added evacuation and ensnaring bridge. Even if the second one felt relevant (and a lot more when you draw daretti), I think that evacuation is really what we want: instant global bounce in order to have the tempo to "build" the correct Mairsil.
That's why I'm open for other ideas in this direction
Was just mulling about with Mairsil and it suddenly hit me.
Mairsil *could* be any grixis, monoblue red black deck there is. So long as its built around a commander with an activated ability.
I had a caged Chainer and thought, this deck could easily be a 'Chainer' deck because the colours allow for crazy tutoring.
Now I have a Grixis Chainer deck, sweet, NO exile drawback.
Hypothetically speaking the same can be done with ANY commander that is used for its activated abiliy.
So it could be an Azami combo deck, now with black and red on the side ect.
Grimgrin Zombie deck? Easy
Dralnu spellslinger deck with no damage clause AND red?
You dont have to have all the activated abilities, just the main one. Now I can use Sneak Attack within a Chainer deck ?!! Thats nutz.
My conculsion, he can be almost anyone. Not just a 'best' Mairsil deck. Any Red, Black, Blue, Dimir, Rakdos, Izzet commander with ':' you got.
Was just mulling about with Mairsil and it suddenly hit me.
Mairsil *could* be any grixis, monoblue red black deck there is. So long as its built around a commander with an activated ability.
I had a caged Chainer and thought, this deck could easily be a 'Chainer' deck because the colours allow for crazy tutoring.
Now I have a Grixis Chainer deck, sweet, NO exile drawback.
Hypothetically speaking the same can be done with ANY commander that is used for its activated abiliy.
So it could be an Azami combo deck, now with black and red on the side ect.
Grimgrin Zombie deck? Easy
Dralnu spellslinger deck with no damage clause AND red?
You dont have to have all the activated abilities, just the main one. Now I can use Sneak Attack within a Chainer deck ?!! Thats nutz.
My conculsion, he can be almost anyone. Not just a 'best' Mairsil deck. Any Red, Black, Blue, Dimir, Rakdos, Izzet commander with ':' you got.
Indeed, the only obstacle (a tiny one) is to efficiently locate the creature and exile it.
Was just mulling about with Mairsil and it suddenly hit me.
Mairsil *could* be any grixis, monoblue red black deck there is. So long as its built around a commander with an activated ability.
I had a caged Chainer and thought, this deck could easily be a 'Chainer' deck because the colours allow for crazy tutoring.
Now I have a Grixis Chainer deck, sweet, NO exile drawback.
Hypothetically speaking the same can be done with ANY commander that is used for its activated abiliy.
So it could be an Azami combo deck, now with black and red on the side ect.
Grimgrin Zombie deck? Easy
Dralnu spellslinger deck with no damage clause AND red?
You dont have to have all the activated abilities, just the main one. Now I can use Sneak Attack within a Chainer deck ?!! Thats nutz.
My conculsion, he can be almost anyone. Not just a 'best' Mairsil deck. Any Red, Black, Blue, Dimir, Rakdos, Izzet commander with ':' you got.
I like that idea. Once things get cage counters, you can rely on those abilities on the commander for the rest of the game.
I will say though that the effort that it takes to access the same card each game though is somewhat north of Zero. After all, there are decks that win by accessing a single card Survival of the Fittest, Hermit Druid, Doomsday, etc, and it's a bit of a gap between that and just having the card in the Command Zone to start.
Yeah, its no tier 1 crazy cedh idea. But brings alot more to the table for these decks, extremely versatile and becomes more powerfull with every time you incidentally cage something else.
Can search up gatherer how many different Commanders this card makes even better.
What is the optimal buried alive search package that doesn't involve an infinite combo?
I was thinking you do something like
Search up dralnu, lich lord, aetherling, something else
Cage aetherling with extra blue mana available
Use aetherling ability to blink and cage dralnu before it hits your next turn
Tap to flash back buried alive with caged dralnu
Fetch Chainer, Dementia Master , Razaketh, the fiend blooded, kokusho, the evening star
use aetherling ability to cage chainer
use aetherling ability cage razaketh
You should now be able to spend 3 black mana and 5 life to get a kokusho trigger to keep a healthy life total and search your library for any card
What other packages are there? I'm thinking there are, at a high level, 3 primary goals:
1: Protect the mairsil
2: Remove or gain control of opposing threats
3: Present your own threat to try and win the game
So for protection we have aetherling, what are the other absolute best protection creatures to search for? You only need a couple.
For removal, do we have any form of mass removal on a creature? What about artifacts and enchantments? Memnarch is a strong effect and I think I'll be using it, but can we get it for cheaper than 7 mana?
For winning the game, I typed out an example chainer/kokusho loop, but what if that stops working for whatever reason? What other strong lines are there that work at an edh scale without being infinite?
For winning the game, I typed out an example chainer/kokusho loop, but what if that stops working for whatever reason? What other strong lines are there that work at an edh scale without being infinite?
For winning the game, I typed out an example chainer/kokusho loop, but what if that stops working for whatever reason? What other strong lines are there that work at an edh scale without being infinite?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
All that said, the ruling as it stands is still anything but clear to me.
I would also love to do something energy-themed, but as is the case with most block-specific mechanics, there just aren't enough options that synergies with Mairsil over Marchesa.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
Gotta love MtGS.
Allow me to get a clearer picture/wording, so I can post this at the top of this thread:
1) So if Mairsil uses Quicksilver's ability on himself, he could reload his abilities, but maintains once-per-turn restriction.
2) Quicksilver/Kraj can gain Mairsil's abilities, then it won't have restrictions?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
If the rules manager told us that Mountains tap for U, would that make it so? I'm obviously exaggerating a good deal to create a less subtle example, but the fact remains that what the rules manager has said appears to be in direct conflict with the CR and the text of the card and the available precedent info on how copied abilities behave. In many regards, Eli's ruling actually makes it LESS clear how the hell this is meant to work, as the situation is now "the CR indicates it should work like so and so, except for Mairsil because the rules manager said it's like this instead," resulting in what comes across as a very bizarre directive to ignore the CR and text as written.
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
Link to the rule clarification: https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/897894399329222656
Evidently, the abilities on Marisil always have the "once per turn" restriction, even if they are copied. So whether he cages Quicksilver or a Quicksilver in play copies him, the abilities are still once per turn. So, activating that ability gives you more instances of each ability, but each one can only be activated once.
My only remaining question is whether the copying of an ability that has already been used carries with it its "used up" status. That will determine whether you can go "infinite" or not. Because the quicksilver activation will copy itself, the question is whether you can use it again. I'm not sure on that one.
It won't carry "used up" status. Whether or not something has been used isn't a copiable characteristic. That exact situation has existed in the rules since at least 95, when you could Clone your Walking Wall, and has always worked the same way (that I can remember - definitely the way it's worked for many years now). Also explicitly confirmed by Eli here.
I kinda picture Mairsil as a "gunslinger", so each time he uses up an ability I takes a "bullet counter" off his magazine.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
My main concern was to protect Mairsil. Here are my choices (I didn't saw those cards in previous pages of this thread):
Skywing Aven
Thalakos Scout
ephemeron
Aetherling is great, but to protect mairsil, you need one U
From my point of view it allows to protect Mairsil for a "free" cost (as discarding a good target for the next mairsil play dosn't seems to be a big deal...)
My other concern was to handle weenies / aggro decks. For the moment I added evacuation and ensnaring bridge. Even if the second one felt relevant (and a lot more when you draw daretti), I think that evacuation is really what we want: instant global bounce in order to have the tempo to "build" the correct Mairsil.
That's why I'm open for other ideas in this direction
Well hello, handsome, nice hair.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Mairsil *could* be any grixis, monoblue red black deck there is. So long as its built around a commander with an activated ability.
I had a caged Chainer and thought, this deck could easily be a 'Chainer' deck because the colours allow for crazy tutoring.
Now I have a Grixis Chainer deck, sweet, NO exile drawback.
Hypothetically speaking the same can be done with ANY commander that is used for its activated abiliy.
So it could be an Azami combo deck, now with black and red on the side ect.
Grimgrin Zombie deck? Easy
Dralnu spellslinger deck with no damage clause AND red?
You dont have to have all the activated abilities, just the main one. Now I can use Sneak Attack within a Chainer deck ?!! Thats nutz.
My conculsion, he can be almost anyone. Not just a 'best' Mairsil deck. Any Red, Black, Blue, Dimir, Rakdos, Izzet commander with ':' you got.
Indeed, the only obstacle (a tiny one) is to efficiently locate the creature and exile it.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Edit: or other win cond'
What do you think?
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
I like that idea. Once things get cage counters, you can rely on those abilities on the commander for the rest of the game.
I will say though that the effort that it takes to access the same card each game though is somewhat north of Zero. After all, there are decks that win by accessing a single card Survival of the Fittest, Hermit Druid, Doomsday, etc, and it's a bit of a gap between that and just having the card in the Command Zone to start.
Can search up gatherer how many different Commanders this card makes even better.
What bother me is that I also wish to bounce my mairsil in the process. Not mandatory but appreciated
Ovinomancer is in the maybeboard.
I was thinking you do something like
Search up dralnu, lich lord, aetherling, something else
Cage aetherling with extra blue mana available
Use aetherling ability to blink and cage dralnu before it hits your next turn
Tap to flash back buried alive with caged dralnu
Fetch Chainer, Dementia Master , Razaketh, the fiend blooded, kokusho, the evening star
use aetherling ability to cage chainer
use aetherling ability cage razaketh
You should now be able to spend 3 black mana and 5 life to get a kokusho trigger to keep a healthy life total and search your library for any card
What other packages are there? I'm thinking there are, at a high level, 3 primary goals:
1: Protect the mairsil
2: Remove or gain control of opposing threats
3: Present your own threat to try and win the game
So for protection we have aetherling, what are the other absolute best protection creatures to search for? You only need a couple.
For removal, do we have any form of mass removal on a creature? What about artifacts and enchantments? Memnarch is a strong effect and I think I'll be using it, but can we get it for cheaper than 7 mana?
For winning the game, I typed out an example chainer/kokusho loop, but what if that stops working for whatever reason? What other strong lines are there that work at an edh scale without being infinite?
You could do a Tree of Perdition + Hateflayer, you can addon to with Glided Lotus and Torchling.
you would just need a way to reset Mairsil's toughness.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com