That alone boggles the mind, phased out Lich.
Its not out of play, but its not in play.
Your at 0...gahh
Very true actually... I might have to check that that works how I'd like it to!
You're safe specifically because the Lich isn't out of play. It's basically like whenever something goes looking for Lich it holds up an Acme sign that says "I'm not here." but is actually here. Like painting yourself to camouflage with the house.
Dang, seeing the return of Phasing has me salty they didn't print Nature's Blessing in the Cats deck. Ah well, least I have my Helm of Chatzuk for the best banding enabler.
You would still lose the game for having 0 life, barring another "You can't lose the game for having 0 or less life." clause, e.g. Phyrexian Unlife, which kinda makes Lich pointless. (This of course assumes your manabase can handle BBBB in a multicolor deck when that's usually around the time the Rushwood Elemental rule starts coming into play.)
I really do wish Lich were more viable, just because I want to use Gary to draw six (or twelve, or eighteen) cards or turn Exsanguinate into a better black Braingeyser. I mean, Necro exists, but you don't get those cards until EOT, and...
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I can see the turn skipping win condition thing being cute for a few games, then I imagine your opponents will start asking you why you are even bothering to play in their group if your entire goal of the game is to not play for 5,000 turns or whatever arbitrary number you choose.
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"People are the worst. The worst thing about music is that people play it." - Mike Patton
So the Chronatog/Protection thing. What about doing that in a Zedruu deck? Donate a bunch of negative things to your opponents and then start skipping your turns and watch them melt away.
You could take this approach, but it mostly begets the question: why would you bother with the turn skips in the first place? To dodge the adverse effects of such cards? I guess that would really depend on what said cards are. Teferi's Protection is kind of anti-synergystic with Zedruu's first ability, and you debatedly wouldn't even need the instant to pull this sort of thing off; it might just make everything needlessly complicated.
I can see the turn skipping win condition thing being cute for a few games, then I imagine your opponents will start asking you why you are even bothering to play in their group if your entire goal of the game is to not play for 5,000 turns or whatever arbitrary number you choose.
Aside from Lethal Vapors, there actually aren't any cards that skip infinite turns, but I get what you're saying here. If you're not actually playing Magic, why bother? I'm inclined to agree with you here, which is why I think my approach to this deck would be about trying to set up a situation post-Protection that still allows me to play Magic. Sitting at the table with a pile of turns skipped just hoping to get there wouldn't be a heck of a lot of fun, not to mention ineffective most likely.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
That alone boggles the mind, phased out Lich.
Its not out of play, but its not in play.
Your at 0...gahh
Very true actually... I might have to check that that works how I'd like it to!
You're safe specifically because the Lich isn't out of play. It's basically like whenever something goes looking for Lich it holds up an Acme sign that says "I'm not here." but is actually here. Like painting yourself to camouflage with the house.
Dang, seeing the return of Phasing has me salty they didn't print Nature's Blessing in the Cats deck. Ah well, least I have my Helm of Chatzuk for the best banding enabler.
You would still lose the game for having 0 life, barring another "You can't lose the game for having 0 or less life." clause, e.g. Phyrexian Unlife, which kinda makes Lich pointless. (This of course assumes your manabase can handle BBBB in a multicolor deck when that's usually around the time the Rushwood Elemental rule starts coming into play.)
I really do wish Lich were more viable, just because I want to use Gary to draw six (or twelve, or eighteen) cards or turn Exsanguinate into a better black Braingeyser. I mean, Necro exists, but you don't get those cards until EOT, and...
Yeah, I checked that in the FB mtg judge group. Sad times. I mean I get it, it makes sense. But still. Poor Lich.
Right now in EDH I see it as a perfect response to Aetherflux Reservoir or Armageddon type effects because it saves lands.
This. Throw down Teferi's Protection in response to a meticulously planned wincon, or something as devastating as land destruction. It would have been better with split-second (duh), but that would have made it even more borderline overpowered.
Hilarious on Elite Arcanist. "And then I play blah to destroy your..." "NOPE!".
You could take this approach, but it mostly begets the question: why would you bother with the turn skips in the first place? To dodge the adverse effects of such cards? I guess that would really depend on what said cards are. Teferi's Protection is kind of anti-synergystic with Zedruu's first ability, and you debatedly wouldn't even need the instant to pull this sort of thing off; it might just make everything needlessly complicated.
I mean yeah its a nonbo with Zedruu's first ability but the idea is that it gives you a valid strategy to use without the Protection Chronatog trick. And it also gives you a more proactive way of winning once you do use it. Rather than just casting Disrupt Decorum and hoping your opponents beat each other to death.
I see this card as a big inhale before the big swing.
Yes, this.
That are the two uses I see for this card:
1. Protect yourself from an enemy that's about to kill you.
2. Protect your own stuff when you're about to win but know that the opponent has a boardwipe on the table.
Trying to break this card with a combo is just dumb. Nobody will end up playing it like that.
(Like, seriously, nearly all my GW decks run Aura Shards, and with the exception of Rith, the Awakener because nonbo, they all use it the exact same way.)
The mana cost is always a consideration as well. Like I said, the Rushwood Elemental rule, which derives its name from the first time the rule was named: "Never run Rushwood Elemental in your five-color deck. Just, don't." (Obviously today it would be Primalcrux.) I can typically get to WWW, UUU, BBB, RRR, or GGG in three-color, maybe even four-color with green, with no problem, but BBBB? No. Not even in Abzan/Sultai/Jund have I ever done that, at least not without Blood Moon and Back to Basics tapping me down.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Teferi's Protection still doesn't dodge me donating Phage the Untouchable to you by saccing her with Endless Whispers on the field. I foresee Teferi's pee break will be an "extended pee and go get Taco Bell" while you wait for the rest of the players in the game to finish.
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"People are the worst. The worst thing about music is that people play it." - Mike Patton
Teferi's Protection still doesn't dodge me donating Phage the Untouchable to you by saccing her with Endless Whispers on the field. I foresee Teferi's pee break will be an "extended pee and go get Taco Bell" while you wait for the rest of the players in the game to finish.
Giving the caster pro-everything prevents you from giving them Phage.
Teferi's Protection still doesn't dodge me donating Phage the Untouchable to you by saccing her with Endless Whispers on the field. I foresee Teferi's pee break will be an "extended pee and go get Taco Bell" while you wait for the rest of the players in the game to finish.
Giving the caster pro-everything prevents you from giving them Phage.
No it doesn't. Protection from everything doesn't prevent you from losing the game, protection only means you as the player means the following: you can't be enchanted, you can't be the target of spells or abilities, and all damage that would be dealt to you is prevented. Phage is a triggered ability that goes on the stack under the protection from everything player's control, then Phage's ability resolves and since it doesn't target, you lose the game.
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No it doesn't. Protection from everything doesn't prevent you from losing the game, protection only means you as the player means the following: you can't be enchanted, you can't be the target of spells or abilities, and all damage that would be dealt to you is prevented. Phage is a triggered ability that goes on the stack under the protection from everything player's control, then Phage's ability resolves and since it doesn't target, you lose the game.
Read Endless Whispers - you have to target the player to get them to get Phage.
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Teferi's Protection still doesn't dodge me donating Phage the Untouchable to you by saccing her with Endless Whispers on the field. I foresee Teferi's pee break will be an "extended pee and go get Taco Bell" while you wait for the rest of the players in the game to finish.
Giving the caster pro-everything prevents you from giving them Phage.
No it doesn't. Protection from everything doesn't prevent you from losing the game, protection only means you as the player means the following: you can't be enchanted, you can't be the target of spells or abilities, and all damage that would be dealt to you is prevented. Phage is a triggered ability that goes on the stack under the protection from everything player's control, then Phage's ability resolves and since it doesn't target, you lose the game.
The Endless Whispers trigger targets the player; since the player has protection from Endless Whispers, they are not a legal target for the ability.
Teferi's Protection still doesn't dodge me donating Phage the Untouchable to you by saccing her with Endless Whispers on the field. I foresee Teferi's pee break will be an "extended pee and go get Taco Bell" while you wait for the rest of the players in the game to finish.
Giving the caster pro-everything prevents you from giving them Phage.
No it doesn't. Protection from everything doesn't prevent you from losing the game, protection only means you as the player means the following: you can't be enchanted, you can't be the target of spells or abilities, and all damage that would be dealt to you is prevented. Phage is a triggered ability that goes on the stack under the protection from everything player's control, then Phage's ability resolves and since it doesn't target, you lose the game.
The Endless Whispers trigger targets the player; since the player has protection from Endless Whispers, they are not a legal target for the ability.
Actually, Endless Whispers grants the ability to all creatures, so it's the protection from Phage that matters, rather than the protection from Endless Whispers. Same result, of course.
Actually, Endless Whispers grants the ability to all creatures, so it's the protection from Phage that matters, rather than the protection from Endless Whispers. Same result, of course.
You are 100% correct!
On-topic, I expect Teferi's Protection to have a decent impact on the format. Now whenever someone would joke "LOL maybe he has Angel's Grace!", it will instead be Teferi's Protection, and they might not be joking.
Okay, so I'm confused about how phasing relates to continuous effects with durations. In particular:
If I have a Banisher Priest exiling another creature, what happens when Banisher Priest gets phased out?
If I have a tapped Preacher granting me control of an opponent's creature, and they both phase out via Teferi's Protection, what is the outcome for each card?
Permanents that get phased out do not leave the battlefield. Best way to visualize it is that whenever an effect comes looking for they hold up a sign that says "I'M NOT HERE", they don't actually leave or re-enter t he battlefield.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I got to use it for the first time last week. I was playing a 5 person game and the person right after me tried to kill my commander. I put up Teferi's Protection and waited it out. The guy right before me ended up swarming with like 30+ dmg and he was coming at me until I reminded him that I couldn't be hurt and he swung at someone else for essentially lethal lol.
It wasn't even that optimal of a Teferi's Protection but even then it was huge just being like set for the whole turn rotation.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Okay, so I'm confused about how phasing relates to continuous effects with durations. In particular:
If I have a Banisher Priest exiling another creature, what happens when Banisher Priest gets phased out?
If I have a tapped Preacher granting me control of an opponent's creature, and they both phase out via Teferi's Protection, what is the outcome for each card?
Permanents that get phased out do not leave the battlefield. Best way to visualize it is that whenever an effect comes looking for they hold up a sign that says "I'M NOT HERE", they don't actually leave or re-enter t he battlefield.
This isn't exactly true. Yes, they don't leave and re-enter the battlefield but as you mentioned effects can't see them. This applies to the continuous effects they set up as well. So, the creature exiled with Banisher Priest re-enters since the effect can't see the Priest on the battlefield. The same is true with Preacher: the effect ends since it can't see the Preacher is still tapped. In the latter case, the stolen creature will phase in and then revert control to the previous controller during your next untap step.
702.25e. Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it's phased in. In particular, effects with "for as long as" durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.
Also, AceBlitzbolter; you should ask these in the Rulings forum so a) it gets more visibility and b) you are likely not the only person with this question and it is easier to find as its own thread.
You would still lose the game for having 0 life, barring another "You can't lose the game for having 0 or less life." clause, e.g. Phyrexian Unlife, which kinda makes Lich pointless. (This of course assumes your manabase can handle BBBB in a multicolor deck when that's usually around the time the Rushwood Elemental rule starts coming into play.)
I really do wish Lich were more viable, just because I want to use Gary to draw six (or twelve, or eighteen) cards or turn Exsanguinate into a better black Braingeyser. I mean, Necro exists, but you don't get those cards until EOT, and...
On phasing:
Aside from Lethal Vapors, there actually aren't any cards that skip infinite turns, but I get what you're saying here. If you're not actually playing Magic, why bother? I'm inclined to agree with you here, which is why I think my approach to this deck would be about trying to set up a situation post-Protection that still allows me to play Magic. Sitting at the table with a pile of turns skipped just hoping to get there wouldn't be a heck of a lot of fun, not to mention ineffective most likely.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Yeah, I checked that in the FB mtg judge group. Sad times. I mean I get it, it makes sense. But still. Poor Lich.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This. Throw down Teferi's Protection in response to a meticulously planned wincon, or something as devastating as land destruction. It would have been better with split-second (duh), but that would have made it even more borderline overpowered.
Hilarious on Elite Arcanist. "And then I play blah to destroy your..." "NOPE!".
I mean yeah its a nonbo with Zedruu's first ability but the idea is that it gives you a valid strategy to use without the Protection Chronatog trick. And it also gives you a more proactive way of winning once you do use it. Rather than just casting Disrupt Decorum and hoping your opponents beat each other to death.
Yes, this.
That are the two uses I see for this card:
1. Protect yourself from an enemy that's about to kill you.
2. Protect your own stuff when you're about to win but know that the opponent has a boardwipe on the table.
Trying to break this card with a combo is just dumb. Nobody will end up playing it like that.
I try to make a Lich deck other than Mirror Universe combo (and yes, that includes Magus of the Mirror) about once a year, it seems. It never works because none of them remove its main weakness. In EDH, you can expect Aura Shards and Bane of Progress a lot, and many decks run Nevinyrral's Disk, while very specialized decks run All is Dust.
(Like, seriously, nearly all my GW decks run Aura Shards, and with the exception of Rith, the Awakener because nonbo, they all use it the exact same way.)
The mana cost is always a consideration as well. Like I said, the Rushwood Elemental rule, which derives its name from the first time the rule was named: "Never run Rushwood Elemental in your five-color deck. Just, don't." (Obviously today it would be Primalcrux.) I can typically get to WWW, UUU, BBB, RRR, or GGG in three-color, maybe even four-color with green, with no problem, but BBBB? No. Not even in Abzan/Sultai/Jund have I ever done that, at least not without Blood Moon and Back to Basics tapping me down.
On phasing:
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
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No it doesn't. Protection from everything doesn't prevent you from losing the game, protection only means you as the player means the following: you can't be enchanted, you can't be the target of spells or abilities, and all damage that would be dealt to you is prevented. Phage is a triggered ability that goes on the stack under the protection from everything player's control, then Phage's ability resolves and since it doesn't target, you lose the game.
Read Endless Whispers - you have to target the player to get them to get Phage.
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On-topic, I expect Teferi's Protection to have a decent impact on the format. Now whenever someone would joke "LOL maybe he has Angel's Grace!", it will instead be Teferi's Protection, and they might not be joking.
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2. Nothing
Permanents that get phased out do not leave the battlefield. Best way to visualize it is that whenever an effect comes looking for they hold up a sign that says "I'M NOT HERE", they don't actually leave or re-enter t he battlefield.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
It wasn't even that optimal of a Teferi's Protection but even then it was huge just being like set for the whole turn rotation.
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This isn't exactly true. Yes, they don't leave and re-enter the battlefield but as you mentioned effects can't see them. This applies to the continuous effects they set up as well. So, the creature exiled with Banisher Priest re-enters since the effect can't see the Priest on the battlefield. The same is true with Preacher: the effect ends since it can't see the Preacher is still tapped. In the latter case, the stolen creature will phase in and then revert control to the previous controller during your next untap step.
Also, AceBlitzbolter; you should ask these in the Rulings forum so a) it gets more visibility and b) you are likely not the only person with this question and it is easier to find as its own thread.