I found it odd that there was so much talk about a combat oriented color combo needing more ramp, yet no one mentioned Sword of the Animist. It may not be hyper-competetive, but it gets the job done.
People did mention that Boros has other forms of card advantage, and one is things like Soltari Visionary and other creatures with either saboteur effects or ETB abilities.
I've played a few Boros decks, and they can be a little difficult, but I'm convinced that multi-player is often more about how you play than what you play. Play the politics of the table, don't over-commit to the board, and you should be fine.
At a competitive level? No, Boros isn't going to make the cut. Red and white are significantly weaker than any of BUG. At a lower level though, RW can work, especially if your playgroup doesn't whine about you actually playing to your colour'sstrengths.
Do you honestly believe that Mono-R is bad at drawing cards? That seems incredibly disingenuous.
Yes, because it is.
Then we are gonna disagree because between the myriad ways to loot and the ever expanding wheels not to mention expanded newer methods in Commune With Lava style cards RED is one of my favorite methods to draw cards.
Red's card draw is a lot better than it used to be, but you can't always just jam it in there and call it a day. Sometimes you require a certain amount of context to make it work.
Looting generally prefers graveyard synergy and impulse draw involves not having crucial combo pieces that you don't want exiled or forced to cast at an inopportune time. Also a low curve helps for the latter.
Still, I've always been impressed by mono-red Daretti. That deck can get away with narrow but powerful cards because of the option of looting them away when they are bad.
Do you honestly believe that Mono-R is bad at drawing cards? That seems incredibly disingenuous.
Yes, because it is.
Then we are gonna disagree because between the myriad ways to loot and the ever expanding wheels not to mention expanded newer methods in Commune With Lava style cards RED is one of my favorite methods to draw cards.
It sounds more like you are opposed to risk.
So your options for drawing are either neutral in card advantage (Faithless,Cathartic), extremely risky without top deck manipulation (Commune with Lava, Chandra Pyromaster), or symmetrical (Wheels).
That's not good drawing at all, especially compared to Blue, Black or Green. Just because you get some draw these days doesn't mean red is good at it in any sense of the word.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I would argue that traditional comparisons on the basis of card advantage apply way less to 100 card singleton and a lot of decks that do not play in focused hand destruction out side of the most competetive side.
White has plenty of cards that could find lands, but unlike green you still have to play one land at a time, which I'd recommend combine it with artifact mana. Red indeed rely a lot on artifacts and has higher risk against artifact hate, but don't forget both red and white have cards that retrieve artifacts when required.
I think Monarch cards is very useful for Boros, consider white cards are extremely good at defense and mitigation, even Queen Marchsa decks use white defense cards to defy combat against them.
I think the greatest strength of both colors are their ability to mass removal (especially lands) and ways to manipulate damage/life gain. As for the biggest issue, I believe it's that Boros have very few generals who're NOT combat oriented, which result in straightforward tactic that are easier to predicted and handled.
However, I realize that even if winning by combat against 3+ players is difficult, it becomes much easier when EVERYONE is doing it, and Boros has no lack of abilities to entice war amongst the group. Basandra, Battle Seraph decks with cards like Goblin Diplomats and Master Warcraft for example if full of tricks that force everyone into combat damage, which is well within Boros's domain, same way control decks force everyone into a crawl. War's Toll makes it even more difficult for players to play passively.
Boros is plenty powerful. You will have to play cards like Armageddon and ruination, and I am fine by that. You see, lots of players will complain about mass land destruction or staxxish type decks, but remind them that if they are playing combos, mass draw effects etc that this is the Boros way of dealing with other edh nonsense. Don't fall for the trap and feel bad, its a waste of time and energy. I am saying this IF your gaming group is competitive, not mono white kitten tribal etc (you get me). In competitive groups, sorry don't care eat MLD all day and love it while they whine.
With only the red side of things in my Feldon deck, I am usually the player at the table with more card draw and ramp effects. That's only half the cards...Most my drawing is looting effects, pitching things I can easily recur. Yes the ramp is all artifacts but also really easy to recover if they get blown up.
With white for tutors, reanimation and the BEST removal, a Boros deck can do very well. They are by far the two best colours for Stax type decks. Can anybody say Cataclysm? This is whites cyclonic rift. How about a cycled Decree of Annihilation? Build better, play better and don't listen to fools.
With only the red side of things in my Feldon deck, I am usually the player at the table with more card draw and ramp effects. That's only half the cards...Most my drawing is looting effects, pitching things I can easily recur. Yes the ramp is all artifacts but also really easy to recover if they get blown up.
With white for tutors, reanimation and the BEST removal, a Boros deck can do very well. They are by far the two best colours for Stax type decks. Can anybody say Cataclysm? This is whites cyclonic rift. How about a cycled Decree of Annihilation? Build better, play better and don't listen to fools.
If you want to say "build better", I hope you realize that mono red, mono white, and boros aren't strong enough to compete at the strongest competitive edh tables.
I totally think you can make it work depending on the speed of your play group. My first deck was Tajic and I definitely built him to make sure I had an impact on the game. To be fair, I built Tajic with the intention of Sunforger being the commander (and I can't imagine not building at least a small package for it given how strong it can be).
I built my Tajic deck as an indestructible threats + Boardwipes deck with a Sunforger package to control the game with and a very focused Emeria mana base (it's nearly mono-white as a result). Equipment tutors for Skullclamp round out the card draw.
Indestructible blocker every game.
Board Wipes scale well into multiplayer.
Sunforger to stop threats.
Emeria engame.
After building more decks it just became apparent that the deck was boring because it played out in the same way in most games and was just clunky. A more streamlined Bant deck was both more fun and just better. I also ended up relying on Inkmoth Nexus + Sunforger (+Boros Charm) for 1-hit kills that became boring and unsatisfying despite letting my deck win.
I found it odd that there was so much talk about a combat oriented color combo needing more ramp, yet no one mentioned Sword of the Animist. It may not be hyper-competetive, but it gets the job done.
How could I forget that sword? Nine times out of ten, it's the first thing I search up with Stoneforge Mystic or Steelshaper's Gift. I've actually had to vary up my search targets because I was becoming predictable.
How could I forget Sword of the Animist? Nine times out of ten, it's the first thing I search up with Stoneforge Mystic or Steelshaper's Gift. I've actually had to vary up my search targets because I was becoming predictable.
I feel like Skullclamp would be more important in the color combination without card draw. Though I guess it would want a different kind of deck than the Sword?
Bull. Wheel effects are wonderful disruption to the BUG players constantly sculpting their hands. I have wrecked many a blue combo players day by doing just that. Red and white can remove anything played. red/white can't compete at the top tables? Then you kill the combo guys first. Strangely enough, white/red are the best at doing just that....
Bull. Wheel effects are wonderful disruption to the BUG players constantly sculpting their hands. I have wrecked many a blue combo players day by doing just that. Red and white can remove anything played. red/white can't compete at the top tables? Then you kill the combo guys first. Strangely enough, white/red are the best at doing just that....
The top tables end the game with combos before the 5th turn. Red/White are really bad in competitive games.
Bull. Wheel effects are wonderful disruption to the BUG players constantly sculpting their hands. I have wrecked many a blue combo players day by doing just that. Red and white can remove anything played. red/white can't compete at the top tables? Then you kill the combo guys first. Strangely enough, white/red are the best at doing just that....
The top tables end the game with combos before the 5th turn. Red/White are really bad in competitive games.
Cool. Arguing an inability to compete at top tables does not mean Boros can't handle multiplayer, especially in relation to OP's original question, which seemed to describe a 75% playgroup.
Oh wait, my bad, I just realized that your initial reply was on topic and addressed casual, but you switched to talking competitive when other posters countered your arguments.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
How could I forget Sword of the Animist? Nine times out of ten, it's the first thing I search up with Stoneforge Mystic or Steelshaper's Gift. I've actually had to vary up my search targets because I was becoming predictable.
I feel like Skullclamp would be more important in the color combination without card draw. Though I guess it would want a different kind of deck than the Sword?
Skullclamp is all right, but my Boros deck doesn't run enough */1 creatures to make it worthwhile.
I was actually thinking of how far a Boros deck would have gone in one of my games yesterday.
Well, it had all optimized but without fast infinites for Prossh, Gitrog Monster, Locust God, and then some Derevi deck that really feels like an Edric deck in disguise.
So they weren't joking around but if we had combos, it took at least 3 pieces to set up. Let's just say that enough boardwipes happened that no one got to keep their manarocks or creatures around for long. Most of us had spot removal for days that didn't end up being used before getting wheeled away or otherwise and most of us quit because the game was getting nowhere and there was no time left.
The unbiased consensus opinion was that if the game went on for any longer Prossh or Gitrog Monster would win, but Gitrog had a Glacial Chasm with no answer from Prossh, even with his Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Boros? I really cannot fathom a Boros deck standing a chance that game as a fifth player. Even with mass land destruction, there was no way or time to get optimal advantage out of it before Gitrog wipes all enchantments and artifacts.
The color combination is playable but the reliance on artifacts and weaknesses become apparent when games like this happen, especially with high tier generals.
I was actually thinking of how far a Boros deck would have gone in one of my games yesterday.
Well, it had all optimized but without fast infinites for Prossh, Gitrog Monster, Locust God, and then some Derevi deck that really feels like an Edric deck in disguise.
So they weren't joking around but if we had combos, it took at least 3 pieces to set up. Let's just say that enough boardwipes happened that no one got to keep their manarocks or creatures around for long. Most of us had spot removal for days that didn't end up being used before getting wheeled away or otherwise and most of us quit because the game was getting nowhere and there was no time left.
The unbiased consensus opinion was that if the game went on for any longer Prossh or Gitrog Monster would win, but Gitrog had a Glacial Chasm with no answer from Prossh, even with his Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Boros? I really cannot fathom a Boros deck standing a chance that game as a fifth player. Even with mass land destruction, there was no way or time to get optimal advantage out of it before Gitrog wipes all enchantments and artifacts.
The color combination is playable but the reliance on artifacts and weaknesses become apparent when games like this happen, especially with high tier generals.
But evident by the result of your aforementioned game, Gitrog won out again everyone who's NOT Boros, including leet tier generals like Prossh and Derevi. Should we hail all glory to the Gitrog Monster, or should we ponder maybe multiplayer game has enough random decks, personalities, and politics to keep everyone in check?
Few of the effective actions you noted, such as wheel effects, Purphoros, board wipes on creature/artifact/enchantment, they all fall into the purview of Boros. The color-combo isn't without its weapons, and it's also not the only deck that relies on artifact/enchantments, Prossh and Derevi are notorious for using high number of both for their combos, that certainly didn't stop the decks from continue using them, and Boros has a larger arsenal of permanents retrieval by comparison.
I think the issue with Boros in multiplayer is more than just the lack of versatile generals, it's also people attempt to play Boros with too much damage and too little politics in mind, not preserving for long game. Playing Boros slowly, it's like an oxymoron, but worth considering.
It's a two card combo with Kher Keep and both pieces are tutorable with Enlightened Tutor. (into Expedition Map) 4-mana to draw 2 every turn isn't spectacular, but it will make your deck go. My Tajic deck is a bit heavier on tokens and tends to attack very little.
Supplement with Mentor of the Meek and Artifacts. I love cards like Oreskos Explorer, Gift of Estates and Tajic. If it weren't for Tajic I would probably play Mono-White though. I actually don't use any Red at all outside of casting him.
I was actually thinking of how far a Boros deck would have gone in one of my games yesterday.
Well, it had all optimized but without fast infinites for Prossh, Gitrog Monster, Locust God, and then some Derevi deck that really feels like an Edric deck in disguise.
So they weren't joking around but if we had combos, it took at least 3 pieces to set up. Let's just say that enough boardwipes happened that no one got to keep their manarocks or creatures around for long. Most of us had spot removal for days that didn't end up being used before getting wheeled away or otherwise and most of us quit because the game was getting nowhere and there was no time left.
The unbiased consensus opinion was that if the game went on for any longer Prossh or Gitrog Monster would win, but Gitrog had a Glacial Chasm with no answer from Prossh, even with his Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Boros? I really cannot fathom a Boros deck standing a chance that game as a fifth player. Even with mass land destruction, there was no way or time to get optimal advantage out of it before Gitrog wipes all enchantments and artifacts.
The color combination is playable but the reliance on artifacts and weaknesses become apparent when games like this happen, especially with high tier generals.
But evident by the result of your aforementioned game, Gitrog won out again everyone who's NOT Boros, including leet tier generals like Prossh and Derevi. Should we hail all glory to the Gitrog Monster, or should we ponder maybe multiplayer game has enough random decks, personalities, and politics to keep everyone in check?
Few of the effective actions you noted, such as wheel effects, Purphoros, board wipes on creature/artifact/enchantment, they all fall into the purview of Boros. The color-combo isn't without its weapons, and it's also not the only deck that relies on artifact/enchantments, Prossh and Derevi are notorious for using high number of both for their combos, that certainly didn't stop the decks from continue using them, and Boros has a larger arsenal of permanents retrieval by comparison.
I think the issue with Boros in multiplayer is more than just the lack of versatile generals, it's also people attempt to play Boros with too much damage and too little politics in mind, not preserving for long game. Playing Boros slowly, it's like an oxymoron, but worth considering.
I can agree with the very last statement. They need a option that isn't immensely combat focused, as it won't generate enough of an advantage against whoever isn't being directly attacked. I will admit myself that my draw to white is the sheer amount of good removal at that color's disposal. I'm just wondering how it can be done while still keeping up with the people drawing boatloads of cards.
Basically, they need a really good general that they don't have yet. One that isn't combat focused, preferably.
Yes, because it is.
People did mention that Boros has other forms of card advantage, and one is things like Soltari Visionary and other creatures with either saboteur effects or ETB abilities.
I've played a few Boros decks, and they can be a little difficult, but I'm convinced that multi-player is often more about how you play than what you play. Play the politics of the table, don't over-commit to the board, and you should be fine.
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Then we are gonna disagree because between the myriad ways to loot and the ever expanding wheels not to mention expanded newer methods in Commune With Lava style cards RED is one of my favorite methods to draw cards.
It sounds more like you are opposed to risk.
Looting generally prefers graveyard synergy and impulse draw involves not having crucial combo pieces that you don't want exiled or forced to cast at an inopportune time. Also a low curve helps for the latter.
Still, I've always been impressed by mono-red Daretti. That deck can get away with narrow but powerful cards because of the option of looting them away when they are bad.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
So your options for drawing are either neutral in card advantage (Faithless,Cathartic), extremely risky without top deck manipulation (Commune with Lava, Chandra Pyromaster), or symmetrical (Wheels).
That's not good drawing at all, especially compared to Blue, Black or Green. Just because you get some draw these days doesn't mean red is good at it in any sense of the word.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I think Monarch cards is very useful for Boros, consider white cards are extremely good at defense and mitigation, even Queen Marchsa decks use white defense cards to defy combat against them.
I think the greatest strength of both colors are their ability to mass removal (especially lands) and ways to manipulate damage/life gain. As for the biggest issue, I believe it's that Boros have very few generals who're NOT combat oriented, which result in straightforward tactic that are easier to predicted and handled.
However, I realize that even if winning by combat against 3+ players is difficult, it becomes much easier when EVERYONE is doing it, and Boros has no lack of abilities to entice war amongst the group. Basandra, Battle Seraph decks with cards like Goblin Diplomats and Master Warcraft for example if full of tricks that force everyone into combat damage, which is well within Boros's domain, same way control decks force everyone into a crawl. War's Toll makes it even more difficult for players to play passively.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
With white for tutors, reanimation and the BEST removal, a Boros deck can do very well. They are by far the two best colours for Stax type decks. Can anybody say Cataclysm? This is whites cyclonic rift. How about a cycled Decree of Annihilation? Build better, play better and don't listen to fools.
If you want to say "build better", I hope you realize that mono red, mono white, and boros aren't strong enough to compete at the strongest competitive edh tables.
I built my Tajic deck as an indestructible threats + Boardwipes deck with a Sunforger package to control the game with and a very focused Emeria mana base (it's nearly mono-white as a result). Equipment tutors for Skullclamp round out the card draw.
Indestructible blocker every game.
Board Wipes scale well into multiplayer.
Sunforger to stop threats.
Emeria engame.
After building more decks it just became apparent that the deck was boring because it played out in the same way in most games and was just clunky. A more streamlined Bant deck was both more fun and just better. I also ended up relying on Inkmoth Nexus + Sunforger (+Boros Charm) for 1-hit kills that became boring and unsatisfying despite letting my deck win.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
How could I forget that sword? Nine times out of ten, it's the first thing I search up with Stoneforge Mystic or Steelshaper's Gift. I've actually had to vary up my search targets because I was becoming predictable.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
The top tables end the game with combos before the 5th turn. Red/White are really bad in competitive games.
Cool. Arguing an inability to compete at top tables does not mean Boros can't handle multiplayer, especially in relation to OP's original question, which seemed to describe a 75% playgroup.
Oh wait, my bad, I just realized that your initial reply was on topic and addressed casual, but you switched to talking competitive when other posters countered your arguments.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Skullclamp is all right, but my Boros deck doesn't run enough */1 creatures to make it worthwhile.
Though, I do run Trading Post...
Well, it had all optimized but without fast infinites for Prossh, Gitrog Monster, Locust God, and then some Derevi deck that really feels like an Edric deck in disguise.
So they weren't joking around but if we had combos, it took at least 3 pieces to set up. Let's just say that enough boardwipes happened that no one got to keep their manarocks or creatures around for long. Most of us had spot removal for days that didn't end up being used before getting wheeled away or otherwise and most of us quit because the game was getting nowhere and there was no time left.
The unbiased consensus opinion was that if the game went on for any longer Prossh or Gitrog Monster would win, but Gitrog had a Glacial Chasm with no answer from Prossh, even with his Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Boros? I really cannot fathom a Boros deck standing a chance that game as a fifth player. Even with mass land destruction, there was no way or time to get optimal advantage out of it before Gitrog wipes all enchantments and artifacts.
The color combination is playable but the reliance on artifacts and weaknesses become apparent when games like this happen, especially with high tier generals.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
But evident by the result of your aforementioned game, Gitrog won out again everyone who's NOT Boros, including leet tier generals like Prossh and Derevi. Should we hail all glory to the Gitrog Monster, or should we ponder maybe multiplayer game has enough random decks, personalities, and politics to keep everyone in check?
Few of the effective actions you noted, such as wheel effects, Purphoros, board wipes on creature/artifact/enchantment, they all fall into the purview of Boros. The color-combo isn't without its weapons, and it's also not the only deck that relies on artifact/enchantments, Prossh and Derevi are notorious for using high number of both for their combos, that certainly didn't stop the decks from continue using them, and Boros has a larger arsenal of permanents retrieval by comparison.
I think the issue with Boros in multiplayer is more than just the lack of versatile generals, it's also people attempt to play Boros with too much damage and too little politics in mind, not preserving for long game. Playing Boros slowly, it's like an oxymoron, but worth considering.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I can agree with the very last statement. They need a option that isn't immensely combat focused, as it won't generate enough of an advantage against whoever isn't being directly attacked. I will admit myself that my draw to white is the sheer amount of good removal at that color's disposal. I'm just wondering how it can be done while still keeping up with the people drawing boatloads of cards.
Basically, they need a really good general that they don't have yet. One that isn't combat focused, preferably.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.