I've had a fairly solid Anax and Cymede deck for some time now. The deck is built for duels but my group and I almost exclusively play four player matches now and the deck simply can't handle three opponents at 40 life. I'm thinking about giving the deck a new Boros commander, maybe Aurelia, and a higher curve but I'm unsure if that will be enough to compete in multiplayer. Our meta is casual but with decent decks and capable players. We don't allow infinite comboes. What do you think?
No, in fact it is the worst color combination. Even mono color decks are better. Boros has almost no card advantage, ramp or cool commanders. If you want dumb beatdown play Xenagod instead.
No, in fact it is the worst color combination. Even mono color decks are better. Boros has almost no card advantage, ramp or cool commanders. If you want dumb beatdown play Xenagod instead.
That's some lazy deck building there.
Boris can compete just fine, you need to think outside the 'online opinion' box.
There is a lot of conditional tutors in white and looting effects in red. It's true that a lot of Boris is turning sideways but you can also go the Enlightened Tutor, Repercussion -> massive creature damage spell.
Red can Fork ramp spells, counter blue spells like Cyclonic Rift with Red Elemental Blast.
White is the best exile/sweeper colour out there. Can also Armegeddon if your group is ok with MLD. But most people who think Boros sucks whine like babies when their land/artifacts get blown up.
Just put some effort and thinking into it and Boros is viable, I would not call it the worst deck to make, but definitely the hardest to build.
It's not as clear-cut as blue or black, but there are plenty sources of card advantage in Boros. Assuming you're an aggressive deck (and you should be, if you're in these colors), you should be emptying your hand faster than others. That means that wheels should benefit you more than your opponents. Wheel of Fortune, Magus of the Wheel, Wheel of Fate, and Reforge the Soul will range from decent to amazing in your deck.
In addition, you can consider a Sunforger package to help generate card advantage. There are other threads dedicated to good inclusions for Sunforger, so I won't regurgitate them all here.
Finally, you're in white! So while your card draw might be limited, that's not the only source of card advantage. Your recursion options will generate card advantage, and you have some of the best options available: Sun Titan, Reveillark, and Karmic Guide, just to name a few.
Don't get discouraged by people online. Boros can compete in multiplayer just fine. Especially in a meta where infinite combos are not allowed, I think this type of deck could actually post good results.
The type of draw that Boros won’t be able to do is the control-style, unconditional volume draw like Fact or Fiction, Night’s Whisper and Harmonize. It’s that kind of draw that’s not widely available. Boros just needs to clamp creatures away, things like that.
For the overall strategy, combat is fine. It just needs to be built differently. Play with the idea that your board will get wiped at least once, probably twice. There are good recursion options in White that allow you to recover.
I run a thematic Archangel Avacyn control/combo list centered around burning the board and boardwiping, then rebuilding with tokens. It works for competitive. Boros can be played perfectly fine. It could be described as a bit linear in the types of decks it builds, but its perfectly viable and can be quite fun. Most everyone loves angels and dragons, too, so there's always the big flyers which are always a joy to hit people in the face with.
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I play Depala, Pilot Exemplar. You don't even actually need that many Dwarves and Vehicles; I think I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 each.
Scroll Rack is a great source of CA for Depala. Activate Scroll Rack, putting X Dwarves and/or Vehicles on top of your library, then tap Depala (crew a vehicle, attack, equip her with Paradise Mantle, whatever) and pay X or more to get them back (and possible more, if you paid a larger value for X).
I can even combo-win with Depala: produce infinite mana (eg, Basalt Monolith+Rings of Brighthearth), tap Depala to dig through your entire library for Dwarvers/Vehicles. Cultivator's Caravan makes sure you have white mana on top of the infinite colorless to cast Mirror Entity. Mirror Entity pumps Ovalchase Dragster and Fleetwheel Cruiser (and Renegade Freighter and/or Untethered Express if you also have a means to give them haste or they're already in play without summoning sickness) to arbitrarily large, with trample. Sure, I have to enter the combat damage step, but that's okay.
While there's a bias that Boros is all about combat, it can be built around combining mono-red and mono-white themes together, such as direct damage, life gain, suppression, and mass removal. Gisela, Blade of Gold Night is one example where politics and spellsling can be applied in multiplayer games. Creatures like Zada, Hedron Grinder can be used in Boros offensively and defensively (and draw cards, if cast right).
Red and White also have the most powerful mass LD in game. Some might call it cheap to wipe lands but Boros is indeed a weaker color combination so I don't think that's wrong, like how is it worse than Cyclonic Rift (which we CAN counter). If not land, Boros has mass wipe for everything else too.
The big problem with Boros is endurance. To combat continual loss, cards like Emeria, the Sky Ruin is needed for recurring soldiers, and token makers like Assemble the Legion would continue the pressure. Wheels are popular card draws and I would also recommend cards like Nahiri, the Harbinger to fetch cards you need quickly.
Another weakness is Boros's reliance on artifacts, which makes any mass artifact wipes hurt. Open the Vault might help your opponent but might also swing the game at your advantage. There's also Restoration Specialist and Argivian Find.
Boros trades off card advantage for combat advantage. It has a strong presence in combat but its also prone to being run into the ground by control based and value based decks. The trick to playing boros tends to be figuring out how to stay relevant later into the game. If you run out of cards / card advantage in boros you tend to die. Generally speaking trying to rush things and kill everyone doesn't work because of the life totals of the format as well as just how long it takes to burn through all of your opponents.
Keeping a strong central element commander who has a strong board presence on their own helps a lot. Aim for how to overcome opponents in a long drawn out game rather than trying to burn them down fast as fast wins rarely happen for boros.
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A friend of mine runs a wicked RW deck based around flicker, artifact shenanigans, mana dumps and red copy effects. It can compete at the 'big boys table' with all the UBx combo garbage though its definitely not quite at their power level.
Anyone who says Boros = dumb beaters and nothing else really hasn't looked into Boros enough.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
For the overall strategy, combat is fine. It just needs to be built differently. Play with the idea that your board will get wiped at least once, probably twice. There are good recursion options in White that allow you to recover.
This is good advice. I run a lot of redundant effects in my Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas deck: Recursive cards like Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Sun Titan, and Karmic Guide, and defensive spells like Comeuppance, Boros Charm and Valorous Stance. I have a Sunforger package, but I'm not reliant on Sunforger. I have a lot of equipment, but it's not entirely a voltron deck. I have a group of top-end creatures, but it's not a fatties deck. Rather than go all-in on a specific strategy, I try to play to the table, and that includes politics and table-talk, which is something a Boros player should never discount. W and R have some of the strongest removal at their fingertips, both massed and single-target. It never hurts to leverage that kind of power for advantages and favours.
Red and white each get the benefit of mono-colored mana packages. Boros loses that, making it the weakest color combo. Additionally, Boros excels at MLD, which is frowned upon in EDH settings.
EDIT: Sometimes you have to use them, though. Razia's Purification? Sure, I'll roll the dice and keep my Dragon Mage and its two swords.
I play Depala, Pilot Exemplar. You don't even actually need that many Dwarves and Vehicles; I think I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 each.
Scroll Rack is a great source of CA for Depala. Activate Scroll Rack, putting X Dwarves and/or Vehicles on top of your library, then tap Depala (crew a vehicle, attack, equip her with Paradise Mantle, whatever) and pay X or more to get them back (and possible more, if you paid a larger value for X).
I can even combo-win with Depala: produce infinite mana (eg, Basalt Monolith+Rings of Brighthearth), tap Depala to dig through your entire library for Dwarvers/Vehicles. Cultivator's Caravan makes sure you have white mana on top of the infinite colorless to cast Mirror Entity. Mirror Entity pumps Ovalchase Dragster and Fleetwheel Cruiser (and Renegade Freighter and/or Untethered Express if you also have a means to give them haste or they're already in play without summoning sickness) to arbitrarily large, with trample. Sure, I have to enter the combat damage step, but that's okay.
Or Aurelia, Splinter Twin, Mirror Gallery. That gets exponential.
I think where Boros suffers most is that many strategies that work great 1v1 aren't very good in multiplayer, and Boros has more of these commanders than other color combos. Boros is at a handicap with regards to ramp and draw vs other colors, and can more easily get into positions where it runs out of steam or gets stymied when going for the win and then gets wiped. Mono R and Mono W have commanders that can make up for these weaknesses, with things like Krenko being able to quickly recover your boardstate and generate CA.
Boros needs one of two things to be able to hang in multiplayer: The right commander, or tight deck building that prioritizes sources of CA. Yea, that sounds trite, because every deck needs that, but Boros needs you to focus on it more, to be more cognizant of it, because those cards don't exactly line up with the strategies Boros tends to push, and even the right commanders need to be properly built, and the CA/Ramp options are more situational and require more careful planning and deck building situations than the options for other colors. Tithe/Land Tax effects increase the value of Karoos in your deck by turning their drawback into a means of turning on your ramp. Sunforger needs the right cards in your deck but can be a powerhouse when built around. Aurelia and Gisela can both win out of nowhere, wheel effects can be draw sevens for you if you play right. Tajic can be a mini Zurgo Helmsmasher, just make sure your table is OK with you dropping Haups after enchanting him with Empyrial Armor.
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For me any color combination is playable, because I consider the commander to be what makes or not the deck playable. I'll give an example, red by its nature, is the worst color for multiplayer commander, red wants to kill fast and interacts with life points, which is exactly why I consider it the worse color for commander when the games are much longer and lifepoints are way higher, but mono-red has a LOT of strong commanders like Krenko, Zada, Daretti, Neheb, Purphoros and even more on the list, you build a deck with them at helm abusing their abilities and it looks like as if red is one of the best colors for commander when it isn't. For me that is what lacks Boros from actually being "tier 1" on multiplayer, there are few strategies that doesn't involve turning creatures sideways in Boros legends, and you need to hit for like what? 120, 160, 200 lifepoints? Not so easy right.
Resuming, it deepends on how cutthroat your friends are on their decks, since its a non-combo environment Boros gets a little boost already, and the best tunned Aurelia as you want to build, can do pretty fine on the table, just don't expect for the deck to be the deck to beat, because it probably won't. It can compete, it will be strong enough for multiplayer, but it won't be the best.
For me any color combination is playable, because I consider the commander to be what makes or not the deck playable. I'll give an example, red by its nature, is the worst color for multiplayer commander, red wants to kill fast and interacts with life points, which is exactly why I consider it the worse color for commander when the games are much longer and lifepoints are way higher, but mono-red has a LOT of strong commanders like Krenko, Zada, Daretti, Neheb, Purphoros and even more on the list, you build a deck with them at helm abusing their abilities and it looks like as if red is one of the best colors for commander when it isn't. For me that is what lacks Boros from actually being "tier 1" on multiplayer, there are few strategies that doesn't involve turning creatures sideways in Boros legends, and you need to hit for like what? 120, 160, 200 lifepoints? Not so easy right.
Resuming, it deepends on how cutthroat your friends are on their decks, since its a non-combo environment Boros gets a little boost already, and the best tunned Aurelia as you want to build, can do pretty fine on the table, just don't expect for the deck to be the deck to beat, because it probably won't. It can compete, it will be strong enough for multiplayer, but it won't be the best.
Yeah, playing a 5-way or 6-way game is not good for any deck that needs to take actions in combat to win. The only way I foresee that ending quickly is after 1-2 people at that table scoop to MLD.
The thing is though, I don't see the top Boros generals as conspicuously behind other colors. Mono-colors are going to have their superpowers just due to sheer numbers, but in exchange the only mono color capable of handling pitfalls is Mono-Blue. And for multicolor options, you have those that were specifically designed to be powerful in EDH from the precons, and then only a very small set of generals like Zur, Sharuum, Jhoira that are on that level. The one Boros precon we have had really didn't add anything to the Mount Rushmore of generals, but same also for other color groups.
Thank you all for the overwhelming amount of replies, many of which were very enlightening! I think that a Boros deck could fare in my playgroup but still I'm leaning further away from building a combat-oriented deck like one commanded by Aurelia, the Warleader. The thing is I already have a deck lead by Xenagos, God of Revels for when I want to go for massive, brainless beats and I generally prefer somewhat more intricate builds with lots of mini-combos (non-infinite!), synergies etc. Furthermore, I mainly play commander with three of my very best friends and we put great emphasis on creating games with lots of interaction and fun where each deck can flourish - MLD does really go well with that.
If I alter my Anax and Cymede deck I'm thinking of going for either Gisela, Blade of Goldnight or Archangel Avacyn for a less standard Boros deck. I still need the deck to be solid though and it needs to have multiple roads to victory and a not too linear playstyle so that it won't get boring too fast. Do you have any good ideas or advice in that regard?
You can also try an Astral Slide version of the deck idea as well using it to blink out your creatures or your opponent's ones as well. I don't like the astral slide version because you kind of have to play with some not so great cycle card and no way to recur them back to your hand but it could fix the draw problem in the colors. Regardless of which version of the deck you'll still have to win by attacking your opponent though.
I have no idea where this perception of Boros or R/W comes from both of which are fine and are more than fine together.
Mono red has weak card draw, weak tutors, and very weak removal and only access to artifact ramp making you very weak to artifact clears.
Mono white has even weaker card draw and only access to artifact ramp making you very weak to artifact clears.
When you combine the two you end up with an edh deck that is bad at ramp and bad at card draw, two of the most essential aspects of most casual edh games. Building boros to compete with BUG usually means traversing into strategies that are hated at most edh tables like mass land destruction, prison, or instant win combos.
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I've had a fairly solid Anax and Cymede deck for some time now. The deck is built for duels but my group and I almost exclusively play four player matches now and the deck simply can't handle three opponents at 40 life. I'm thinking about giving the deck a new Boros commander, maybe Aurelia, and a higher curve but I'm unsure if that will be enough to compete in multiplayer. Our meta is casual but with decent decks and capable players. We don't allow infinite comboes. What do you think?
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That's some lazy deck building there.
Boris can compete just fine, you need to think outside the 'online opinion' box.
There is a lot of conditional tutors in white and looting effects in red. It's true that a lot of Boris is turning sideways but you can also go the Enlightened Tutor, Repercussion -> massive creature damage spell.
Red can Fork ramp spells, counter blue spells like Cyclonic Rift with Red Elemental Blast.
White is the best exile/sweeper colour out there. Can also Armegeddon if your group is ok with MLD. But most people who think Boros sucks whine like babies when their land/artifacts get blown up.
Just put some effort and thinking into it and Boros is viable, I would not call it the worst deck to make, but definitely the hardest to build.
Now, Boros will never be the best late game, but it can absolutely hang in multiplayer.
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It's not as clear-cut as blue or black, but there are plenty sources of card advantage in Boros. Assuming you're an aggressive deck (and you should be, if you're in these colors), you should be emptying your hand faster than others. That means that wheels should benefit you more than your opponents. Wheel of Fortune, Magus of the Wheel, Wheel of Fate, and Reforge the Soul will range from decent to amazing in your deck.
In addition, you can consider a Sunforger package to help generate card advantage. There are other threads dedicated to good inclusions for Sunforger, so I won't regurgitate them all here.
Finally, you're in white! So while your card draw might be limited, that's not the only source of card advantage. Your recursion options will generate card advantage, and you have some of the best options available: Sun Titan, Reveillark, and Karmic Guide, just to name a few.
True, your options for ramp are limited in these colors. However, you again just have to be creative with your deckbuilding. Land Tax is an amazing card and source of land. Weathered Wayfarer is another amazing card source for land. Other options include Kor Cartographer, Knight of the White Orchid, and Oreskos Explorer.
You also have artifact ramp. Solemn Simulacrum, Sol Ring, Boros Signet, Boros Cluestone, Mana Vault, Thran Dynamo...the list goes on.
Don't get discouraged by people online. Boros can compete in multiplayer just fine. Especially in a meta where infinite combos are not allowed, I think this type of deck could actually post good results.
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsThe type of draw that Boros won’t be able to do is the control-style, unconditional volume draw like Fact or Fiction, Night’s Whisper and Harmonize. It’s that kind of draw that’s not widely available. Boros just needs to clamp creatures away, things like that.
For the overall strategy, combat is fine. It just needs to be built differently. Play with the idea that your board will get wiped at least once, probably twice. There are good recursion options in White that allow you to recover.
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Scroll Rack is a great source of CA for Depala. Activate Scroll Rack, putting X Dwarves and/or Vehicles on top of your library, then tap Depala (crew a vehicle, attack, equip her with Paradise Mantle, whatever) and pay X or more to get them back (and possible more, if you paid a larger value for X).
I can even combo-win with Depala: produce infinite mana (eg, Basalt Monolith+Rings of Brighthearth), tap Depala to dig through your entire library for Dwarvers/Vehicles. Cultivator's Caravan makes sure you have white mana on top of the infinite colorless to cast Mirror Entity. Mirror Entity pumps Ovalchase Dragster and Fleetwheel Cruiser (and Renegade Freighter and/or Untethered Express if you also have a means to give them haste or they're already in play without summoning sickness) to arbitrarily large, with trample. Sure, I have to enter the combat damage step, but that's okay.
The deck also has Aurelia, the Warleader + Sword of Feast and Famine + Felhide Spiritbinder for potentially infinite combat phases. (And the Sword can be replaced by a crewed Cultivator's Caravan + creature equipped with Paradise Mantle.)
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Right now though, I think it is workable, but you better pack that card filtering and blue hate to go with it.
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Red and White also have the most powerful mass LD in game. Some might call it cheap to wipe lands but Boros is indeed a weaker color combination so I don't think that's wrong, like how is it worse than Cyclonic Rift (which we CAN counter). If not land, Boros has mass wipe for everything else too.
The big problem with Boros is endurance. To combat continual loss, cards like Emeria, the Sky Ruin is needed for recurring soldiers, and token makers like Assemble the Legion would continue the pressure. Wheels are popular card draws and I would also recommend cards like Nahiri, the Harbinger to fetch cards you need quickly.
Another weakness is Boros's reliance on artifacts, which makes any mass artifact wipes hurt. Open the Vault might help your opponent but might also swing the game at your advantage. There's also Restoration Specialist and Argivian Find.
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Keeping a strong central element commander who has a strong board presence on their own helps a lot. Aim for how to overcome opponents in a long drawn out game rather than trying to burn them down fast as fast wins rarely happen for boros.
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Anyone who says Boros = dumb beaters and nothing else really hasn't looked into Boros enough.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
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This is good advice. I run a lot of redundant effects in my Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas deck: Recursive cards like Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Sun Titan, and Karmic Guide, and defensive spells like Comeuppance, Boros Charm and Valorous Stance. I have a Sunforger package, but I'm not reliant on Sunforger. I have a lot of equipment, but it's not entirely a voltron deck. I have a group of top-end creatures, but it's not a fatties deck. Rather than go all-in on a specific strategy, I try to play to the table, and that includes politics and table-talk, which is something a Boros player should never discount. W and R have some of the strongest removal at their fingertips, both massed and single-target. It never hurts to leverage that kind of power for advantages and favours.
Cards like master warcraft can make thkse infinite attack phases become unblockable strikes.
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Or Aurelia, Splinter Twin, Mirror Gallery. That gets exponential.
I think where Boros suffers most is that many strategies that work great 1v1 aren't very good in multiplayer, and Boros has more of these commanders than other color combos. Boros is at a handicap with regards to ramp and draw vs other colors, and can more easily get into positions where it runs out of steam or gets stymied when going for the win and then gets wiped. Mono R and Mono W have commanders that can make up for these weaknesses, with things like Krenko being able to quickly recover your boardstate and generate CA.
Boros needs one of two things to be able to hang in multiplayer: The right commander, or tight deck building that prioritizes sources of CA. Yea, that sounds trite, because every deck needs that, but Boros needs you to focus on it more, to be more cognizant of it, because those cards don't exactly line up with the strategies Boros tends to push, and even the right commanders need to be properly built, and the CA/Ramp options are more situational and require more careful planning and deck building situations than the options for other colors. Tithe/Land Tax effects increase the value of Karoos in your deck by turning their drawback into a means of turning on your ramp. Sunforger needs the right cards in your deck but can be a powerhouse when built around. Aurelia and Gisela can both win out of nowhere, wheel effects can be draw sevens for you if you play right. Tajic can be a mini Zurgo Helmsmasher, just make sure your table is OK with you dropping Haups after enchanting him with Empyrial Armor.
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Resuming, it deepends on how cutthroat your friends are on their decks, since its a non-combo environment Boros gets a little boost already, and the best tunned Aurelia as you want to build, can do pretty fine on the table, just don't expect for the deck to be the deck to beat, because it probably won't. It can compete, it will be strong enough for multiplayer, but it won't be the best.
Yeah, playing a 5-way or 6-way game is not good for any deck that needs to take actions in combat to win. The only way I foresee that ending quickly is after 1-2 people at that table scoop to MLD.
The thing is though, I don't see the top Boros generals as conspicuously behind other colors. Mono-colors are going to have their superpowers just due to sheer numbers, but in exchange the only mono color capable of handling pitfalls is Mono-Blue. And for multicolor options, you have those that were specifically designed to be powerful in EDH from the precons, and then only a very small set of generals like Zur, Sharuum, Jhoira that are on that level. The one Boros precon we have had really didn't add anything to the Mount Rushmore of generals, but same also for other color groups.
If I alter my Anax and Cymede deck I'm thinking of going for either Gisela, Blade of Goldnight or Archangel Avacyn for a less standard Boros deck. I still need the deck to be solid though and it needs to have multiple roads to victory and a not too linear playstyle so that it won't get boring too fast. Do you have any good ideas or advice in that regard?
You can also try an Astral Slide version of the deck idea as well using it to blink out your creatures or your opponent's ones as well. I don't like the astral slide version because you kind of have to play with some not so great cycle card and no way to recur them back to your hand but it could fix the draw problem in the colors. Regardless of which version of the deck you'll still have to win by attacking your opponent though.
Mono red has weak card draw, weak tutors, and very weak removal and only access to artifact ramp making you very weak to artifact clears.
Mono white has even weaker card draw and only access to artifact ramp making you very weak to artifact clears.
When you combine the two you end up with an edh deck that is bad at ramp and bad at card draw, two of the most essential aspects of most casual edh games. Building boros to compete with BUG usually means traversing into strategies that are hated at most edh tables like mass land destruction, prison, or instant win combos.