MTG Salvation

I'm sure most of you can sympathize!

Spoilers come out, and bam, you see this card that goes perfectly in a deck you've been tuning for years! Unfortunately, it isn't a strict upgrade over another piece, so you don't know what to take out.

Or

You are making a new deck. You've put aside cards in your collection that go really well in the deck, and realize you have a pile of 75 cards, without your mana base! Now you need to go through each card and decide if it deserves a spot.


Here are some of the things I have done to test specific cards:

• Solitaire the deck with the specific card in my opening hand and in the 99. Is it good in my opening hand? Is it good as a topdeck?
• Play games with friends, keeping the new card in my deck box. Is there any point in the games where I have a useless card in my hand that would be better off as this other card?
• Are there any cards that do something similar, in a broad context? Is the deck hurt by taking one of them out? Redundancy is great, but with all the tutors we have, you need to think about how likely you are to ever use the second or third copy of an effect (I recently took out Kami of False Hope since Spore Frog seems like enough in my Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck. This is especially true since I also have Peacekeeper).
• Sometimes this is harder to do, and you need to think less of redundancy and more of similar purposes. For example, I don't play Solemn Simulacrum in my Karador deck. It's a great card, but I already have Wood Elves, and I already have card draw. I thought about how happy I would be to have it in my opening hand vs other cards, and how likely I would be to tutor it. Turns out, it usually comes down too late to be good for ramp as I have few spells that cost more than 5, I will never tutor it over something like Wood Elves or Mindslicer, and even with recursion there are more efficient cards. There are specific situations where Solemn would be better, but it was worth taking out for something like Renegade Rallier, which is both Ramp and win condition.

If testing a large number of cards, for example in a new deck:

• I tend to solitaire all the cards I'm interested in playing, and playing assuming I make every land drop. I find this has helped me weed out large number of cards when making new decks, but that it is far from perfect.
• I have tried playing with friends with 29 lands and 70 spells, but being stuck on mana really did not allow me to figure it out.

Anyway, those are some of my ideas. Obviously, looking for new ways to

I try to keep things as 'straight swap' as possible; in a deck of 100, there are any number of variables that could affect whether a card plays well or not. So if I'm uncertain whether a card deserves a spot, I'll try and swap it for the closest in similarity, and try to change as little else as possible.

Quote from toctheyounger77 »

I try to keep things as 'straight swap' as possible; in a deck of 100, there are any number of variables that could affect whether a card plays well or not. So if I'm uncertain whether a card deserves a spot, I'll try and swap it for the closest in similarity, and try to change as little else as possible.

But what if the new card makes your deck better, but is not close to anything else in the deck? Or if the deck wants as many of those effects as possible?
Like, if you're playing Nekusar, the MindRazer, and a new wheel comes out, how do you go about cutting another card?

As much as possible, it is nice to go and do a straight swap. But sometimes it isn't clear if a card should or should not be in your deck. Sometimes it is very hard to make a cut.

Definitely, and it's hard to decide what to cut in those cases. I find it hardest when I have a deck working quite well, and a clear entry comes along. My best guess answer to this question is to look at the existing entries and decide which contributes least to what you're trying to achieve. Or, which is weakest in a vacuum ie. which is the least useful card without taking into consideration any other card in the deck (of course if you run enough tutors this argument is redundant - I don't run tutors if at all possible).

I know I have cut cards like Krosan Grip, Sudden Death and Sudden Spoiling... cards I know are good but that do not contribute to what the deck is doing. It's tough. I think running tutors helps you cut redundant pieces, because you will always get the better piece. Cards being weak by themselves (in a vacuum) is definitely grounds for being cut. Sometimes though, it takes me months before I figure out what to cut. I wish there was some kind of algorithm to apply.

By the way, just noticed your user name. Toc the Younger was definitely one of the more interesting characters from that series.

It can take a while in some cases. And to be honest, having said this in the previous reply I made, a counter argument could be made for keeping close variants so that you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket. For example, running Oversold Cemetery in a Chainer, Dementia Master deck or similar.

Good spotting! I don't think there's too many Malazan fans on the forums here - I noticed one member called FiddlertheDrum, but otherwise just me that I've seen. Far and away my favourite books, they're so rewarding. I've themed a deck around them, and am tossing up doing another based on different characters from the series.

Just looked at the deck. Really nicely done!

I read 8/10 books, and have not picked up a book in over a year (too busy). The 9th and 10th are waiting there for me! Honestly, the best books I've ever read, with some of the most interesting characters I've ever crossed (Itkovian, Tehol Beddict, Karsa Orlong, Mappo Runt).
Looking forward to finishing it one day.

Thanks a lot! It's hard to get good feedback on it because it is such an obscure theme. It's a lot of fun though. Thinking of doing Coltaine and the chain of dogs next, with Kresh the Bloodbraided as Coltaine.

I'd strongly recommend finishing the series (obviously). I'm on the 9th now, and this is my third reread, fourth counting audiobooks. It's one of the few series that truly rewards rereading - you really do pick up different things every time you read through, just through sheer depth of material and the amount of detail put into the books.

I lroxybthe card and playbwith it. See how often it comes up and how much of an impact it causes when it hits. Still a fair game and my opponents are aware of what card i am proxying befor hand

If you want to try out a new card that is not a straight swap just cut out the most expensive card. You are less likely to cast an expensive spell than a cheaper one. When actually testing the card you should just start it in your opener. You can't really tell whether card is good or not if you never actually draw it.

When I have stuff from new sets for decks, I tend to lay out the whole deck, divvied by cmc and just stare at the whole pile of cards for a while - figuring out exactly how much each has seen useful play in the deck. For me it's seeing the whole deck laid out in front of me that helps me remember and comprehend what the deck actually is going to do.

Ends up being a combination of gut instinct, maintaining a somewhat-reasonable cost balance, cutting cards that I play in other decks or that aren't that important to the deck's theme; heavier mana costs also tend to go as the big haymakers see less actual play just by virtue of cost alone. Off-theme cards that are just 'good' also tend to go, though most of my decks are shaped-up enough that there's not much of that to cut from anymore.

Then after some games I might notice my instinct was wrong, but that's them breaks.

Quote from illakunsaa »

If you want to try out a new card that is not a straight swap just cut out the most expensive card. You are less likely to cast an expensive spell than a cheaper one. When actually testing the card you should just start it in your opener. You can't really tell whether card is good or not if you never actually draw it.

Sometimes, this can be a good way to go about it. Cut the most non-essential big card.

I usually start with trying to cut anything that is not on-theme or absolutely necessary to the deck first. Cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Solemn Simulacrum, etc. will almost always start out in my decks, but over time I've cut them if I felt they weren't serving the overall theme well enough to leave something on-theme out of the deck.

If I find that this doesn't work, then I look to cut a whole class or subtheme of cards that might find a home elsewhere and allow the main theme more room. This happened when I started developing Ghave; I ended up pulling out anything that was just in for the tokens and just focused on +1/+1 counters. This also happened several times with my various Green-White decks; they eventually split into 4 different decks.

If that doesn't work, I will then try to pull a card that I might be running in at least one other deck. If the new card is good enough, then I don't mind playing both; they just end up in different decks.

If that doesn't work, then I almost always look at mana cost and pull something from the deck that costs the same or more. This helps prevent mana curve creep over time (which can be a real problem if you are not careful).

As far as testing goes, I mostly just play the deck a little more than others until I'm satisfied that the changes I've made make sense. Even if I don't draw the cards I've added, I can at least gauge the board and imagine whether I would want the old card or the new card in this situation. I try to give cards enough time in the deck for me to play them a few times because even if they end up being "wrong" for the deck, it is at least somewhat fulfilling to have at least played with the card.

Just playing the deck is often the best way to figure out what is working and what isn't. From there I try to identify the culprits and cut them for the new card. If cards have a similar effect that tends to make it easier as they are easier to compare. Just make sure to never comprise the integrity of the deck by skimping card draw and ramp.

p.s. Big fan of Malazan. It's quite the undertaking but well worth it.

I tend to keep track of cards that I hold in my hand for long periods of time with the ability to use that I do not.

Quote from Taleran »

I tend to keep track of cards that I hold in my hand for long periods of time with the ability to use that I do not.

This is also a good point. I remember when I had Wild Ricochet is several of my decks, but after multiple times of suffering through games trying to hold up 4 mana and never having anything worth casting it on I realized that it was just not worth the rare time I actually got to use it.

This will also happen for cards that share a CMC the same as the commander when the deck is very commander-centric. I remember when I was attempting to build a Varolz, the Scar-Striped deck and I found that I was rarely casting my three drops because I always wanted to play Varolz ASAP. I cut almost all the 3-drops and added in way more 2-drops. The mana curve looked really wonky, but it made the deck so much better.