Since opening up Torment of Hailfire as my prerelease promo last weekend I've been pondering on whether to include it in one of my decks. I know its considered suboptimal compared to some other sweepers, but with my budget being limited the options that I currently run in my Meren deck are also not top of the line; Killing Wave and Black Sun's Zenith.
It's pretty much a deck made of cards that I had laying around and for the time being I'm not looking at investing in a lot of upgrades for it, as other decks just have more priority in that regard. Anyways, I've been going back and forth on which two of the three I am better off running, currently I'm leaning towards BSZ and Torment. BSZ as it simply aims at sweeping all the creatures as long as you sink enough mana into it, and the Torment because it can hit more than just creatures compared to Killing Wave. That said taking three or discarding a card isn't always that big of a deal either, making me wonder if it is the card to run from these three.
So, I'm not really looking for suggestions on alternatives, but more or less would like to hear which 2 of the 3 would you pick in my situation.
Torment of Hailfire is probably used more as Exsanguinate in decks that try to generate tons of mana to drain opponents with X spells like Exsanguinate. I would Torment as second option to that stratergy instead of a sweeper.
Torment can't really be considered a sweeper since it will only sweep in a situation where you probably were going to win anyways. It is, as RedGauntlet said, more of a Fireball/Exsanguinte-style effect.
So I would definitely run Black Sun's Zenith for all your sweeping needs. For a second card, I do think Torment of Hailfire is more effective than Killing Wave - it inflicts no friendly fire and can possibly hit artifacts and enchantments that black otherwise can't deal with. Wave probably does more damage against "go-wide" token and swarm decks, but Hailfire is going to be better against a broader range of opponents.
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I agree, Torment of Hailfire compares better to Exsanguinate than it does to Black Sun's Zenith. In a 40 life format, people are generally going to be willing to pay 3 life in order to keep their creatures, so Torment is not really a sweeper until you are casting it for a high enough value of X that they can't afford to pay the life. And even then, their best stuff is going to survive.
Basically think of it as a burn spell that has their boardstate as a speedbump before it can do lethal damage.
That said, I do think that there is a good argument for using Torment to replace Exsanguinate in some cases, because it is more mana efficient against anything but tokens. If you cast Torment of Hailfire for X=20 midgame, you'll often win on the spot, whereas at least someone will frequently survive an Exsanguinate for 20.
EDIT: Killing Wave, on the other hand, is a better comparison for ToH. Personally, I would go for Torment of Hellfire over Killing Wave any day, simply because Killing Wave can never win the game for you outright. If you cast Killing Wave with infinite mana then it's just a sweeper. If you cast Torment of Hailfire with infinite mana, you win.
Torment of Hailfire as a sweeper? That is a gross misjudgement of the card and is very situation dependent.
Copy spells are very beneficial with this. Like lets say a prior turn I played a Swarm Intelligence with seven mana sources out. Then on the following turn, I miss a land drop, then I cast Torment of Hailfire for X = 5. Swarm Intelligence kicks in and copies it for a second copy where X = 5 also. Each opponent is affected essentially by a Torment of Hailfire of X = 10 for 7 mana where if they are willing to tank it, they are looking at losing 30 life to preserve their hand and board state.
It only gets better with the more mana you have when wanting to cast the Torment of Hailfire and then copy it. Lets say X = 8 as we now have 10 mana sources, copy it, X = 16 now, which means if they want to tank it with just their life total they are losing 48 life. Lets say they are at 40 life exact, they must use at least three nonland permanents and/or cards in hand to survive with 1 life at minimum. Also you can copy it even if you are in and that is with a Mirari at least.
But there is always another method I don't see being talked about: A followed up spell. Such as with Toxic Deluge, Damnation, Death Cloud, Black Sun's Zenith, etc. Take away an number of the creatures and/or cards in hand then make the choice more painful with Torment of Hailfire as the follow up.
Torment of Hailfire is not a sweeper. Torment is used to friggen kill people in control shells where you can control resources such as boardstate or hands. Even if you don't get all of their life, you crippled them pretty hard.
Its a very silly question because all three fulfill different roles. Killing Wave, Black Sun's Zenith and Torment of Hailfire all can fulfill a similar role, but they are not exactly the most comparable.
Really easy example. I cast Torment of Hailfire for X = 10, I flashback Increasing Vengeance and copy the Torment twice. X now equals 30 in this matter. Which means they are looking at losing 90 life, 30 cards in hand, 30 nonland permanents or a mixture of the three. Lets say each opponent has 40 life. To avoid losing the game, 17:30 of their choices must not be "lose 3 life" as if its 16:30 they lose the game as they are now at -2 life. That means they must have a combination of 17 nonland permanents and/or cards in hand in which they use to take the blows. Doing so leaves the opponents at 1 life if they only had enough cards on the battlefield or in hand.
Black Sun's Zenith for X = 10. It can only affect the creatures on the board state. So flashbacking an Increasing Vengeance only guarantees that the board will be cleaned of creatures unless they had a X/31+ creature(s).
Torment of Hailfire for small X is going to be pretty bad; your opponents may sacrifice a permanent or two, discard some lands or dead cards, and maybe lose a few life. Torment of Hailfire for large X is a wincon, just like Exsanguinate for large X is a wincon. The problem is just that the necessary value of X to guarantee a lethal Torment of Hailfire depends on the number of permanents and cards your opponents have on top of their life total, where a lethal Exsanguinate only cares about life total. If you've got infinite mana, the two cards are equivalent.
Torment of Hailfire for small X is going to be pretty bad; your opponents may sacrifice a permanent or two, discard some lands or dead cards, and maybe lose a few life. Torment of Hailfire for large X is a wincon, just like Exsanguinate for large X is a wincon. The problem is just that the necessary value of X to guarantee a lethal Torment of Hailfire depends on the number of permanents and cards your opponents have on top of their life total, where a lethal Exsanguinate only cares about life total. If you've got infinite mana, the two cards are equivalent.
My buddy and I were discussing Torment of Hailfire and agreed that on average you probably have to overcome about 12 cards between the hand and battlefield of opponents, meaning you need X to be at least 26 for a lethal Hailfire. Noticeably less then the 40 needed for a lethal exsanguinate, by this evaluation I've decided to test out Hailfire in my MBC Kokusho deck.
This is not cut and dry and it's true that Torment of Hailfire may on average cost less then Exsanguinate, but that doesn't account for fringe or even some more common Boardstates (like a buttload of tokens).
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If you are picking two of the three, I'd say ToH and killing wave. They are the most similar in effect. Each of them become better if you cast the other one previously that game, or have cast similar cards. In that way, better if you are making that a theme of the deck.
If you like BSZ as a sweeper, then other budget sweepers like Life's Finale, Crux of Fate, etc, will serve better.
Torment of Hailfire for small X is going to be pretty bad; your opponents may sacrifice a permanent or two, discard some lands or dead cards, and maybe lose a few life. Torment of Hailfire for large X is a wincon, just like Exsanguinate for large X is a wincon. The problem is just that the necessary value of X to guarantee a lethal Torment of Hailfire depends on the number of permanents and cards your opponents have on top of their life total, where a lethal Exsanguinate only cares about life total. If you've got infinite mana, the two cards are equivalent.
My buddy and I were discussing Torment of Hailfire and agreed that on average you probably have to overcome about 12 cards between the hand and battlefield of opponents, meaning you need X to be at least 26 for a lethal Hailfire. Noticeably less then the 40 needed for a lethal exsanguinate, by this evaluation I've decided to test out Hailfire in my MBC Kokusho deck.
This is not cut and dry and it's true that Torment of Hailfire may on average cost less then Exsanguinate, but that doesn't account for fringe or even some more common Boardstates (like a buttload of tokens).
Also, a non-lethal Torment doesn't let you pay for Necropotence to dig for a win, while a non-lethal Exsanguinate does.
Depends on how many times you browbeat. A one-shot like Browbeat or Dash Hopes is usually bad in this format because 1) life doesn't mean as much, and 2) it'll follow the "least harm" principle. Obviously you can use Furnace of Rath or Wound Reflfection to make that harm greater, but that's about all you can do.
On the other hand, something like Painful Quandary is at least passible, since it triggers frequently, and you can use Bloodchief Ascension or Megrim to get in some damage or Waste Not to get some card advantage or fast mana. (And it is, of course, playable in Nath because it triggers Nath's token-making ability, though it's below Sadistic Hypnotist and Mind Slash in that deck.) The key for PQ is that it depends on you (or at least one other player) winning by life loss, not Commander damage or infect or whatever.
This is like PQ, but only a one-shot. It can be a wincon, and you now get Blood Artist and friends to also manipulate an opponent in one direction. It's just that you need to pay (X/3)+Y+Z mana, where X is your opponent's life total, Y is the number of creatures he or she controls, and Z is the number of cards in his or her hand, instead of the X mana of Exsanguinate and Comet Storm. (Well, X+Y-1, where Y is your total number of opponents.)
I could see Hailfire or Scarabs having a place in the right deck. Exsanguinate's better, though.
Killing Wave is bad as a sweeper. If I have more creatures than you, it's likely I have more life than you, either because some of those creatures have lifelink or someotherability, or just because all those creatures have been eating away at your life total. I...guess it stops an infect player?
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Torment of Hailfire for small X is going to be pretty bad; your opponents may sacrifice a permanent or two, discard some lands or dead cards, and maybe lose a few life. Torment of Hailfire for large X is a wincon, just like Exsanguinate for large X is a wincon. The problem is just that the necessary value of X to guarantee a lethal Torment of Hailfire depends on the number of permanents and cards your opponents have on top of their life total, where a lethal Exsanguinate only cares about life total. If you've got infinite mana, the two cards are equivalent.
My buddy and I were discussing Torment of Hailfire and agreed that on average you probably have to overcome about 12 cards between the hand and battlefield of opponents, meaning you need X to be at least 26 for a lethal Hailfire. Noticeably less then the 40 needed for a lethal exsanguinate, by this evaluation I've decided to test out Hailfire in my MBC Kokusho deck.
This is not cut and dry and it's true that Torment of Hailfire may on average cost less then Exsanguinate, but that doesn't account for fringe or even some more common Boardstates (like a buttload of tokens).
Also, a non-lethal Torment doesn't let you pay for Necropotence to dig for a win, while a non-lethal Exsanguinate does.
This is a very good point, Exsanguinate doesn't necessarily need to finish the game itself and it will still leave you on an advantageous position to win, while Torment would pretty much have to seal the deal to be worth it. Thanks for pointing that out, helps me consider the card more adequately.
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It's pretty much a deck made of cards that I had laying around and for the time being I'm not looking at investing in a lot of upgrades for it, as other decks just have more priority in that regard. Anyways, I've been going back and forth on which two of the three I am better off running, currently I'm leaning towards BSZ and Torment. BSZ as it simply aims at sweeping all the creatures as long as you sink enough mana into it, and the Torment because it can hit more than just creatures compared to Killing Wave. That said taking three or discarding a card isn't always that big of a deal either, making me wonder if it is the card to run from these three.
So, I'm not really looking for suggestions on alternatives, but more or less would like to hear which 2 of the 3 would you pick in my situation.
Torment of Hailfire is probably used more as Exsanguinate in decks that try to generate tons of mana to drain opponents with X spells like Exsanguinate. I would Torment as second option to that stratergy instead of a sweeper.
So I would definitely run Black Sun's Zenith for all your sweeping needs. For a second card, I do think Torment of Hailfire is more effective than Killing Wave - it inflicts no friendly fire and can possibly hit artifacts and enchantments that black otherwise can't deal with. Wave probably does more damage against "go-wide" token and swarm decks, but Hailfire is going to be better against a broader range of opponents.
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Basically think of it as a burn spell that has their boardstate as a speedbump before it can do lethal damage.
That said, I do think that there is a good argument for using Torment to replace Exsanguinate in some cases, because it is more mana efficient against anything but tokens. If you cast Torment of Hailfire for X=20 midgame, you'll often win on the spot, whereas at least someone will frequently survive an Exsanguinate for 20.
EDIT: Killing Wave, on the other hand, is a better comparison for ToH. Personally, I would go for Torment of Hellfire over Killing Wave any day, simply because Killing Wave can never win the game for you outright. If you cast Killing Wave with infinite mana then it's just a sweeper. If you cast Torment of Hailfire with infinite mana, you win.
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Copy spells are very beneficial with this. Like lets say a prior turn I played a Swarm Intelligence with seven mana sources out. Then on the following turn, I miss a land drop, then I cast Torment of Hailfire for X = 5. Swarm Intelligence kicks in and copies it for a second copy where X = 5 also. Each opponent is affected essentially by a Torment of Hailfire of X = 10 for 7 mana where if they are willing to tank it, they are looking at losing 30 life to preserve their hand and board state.
It only gets better with the more mana you have when wanting to cast the Torment of Hailfire and then copy it. Lets say X = 8 as we now have 10 mana sources, copy it, X = 16 now, which means if they want to tank it with just their life total they are losing 48 life. Lets say they are at 40 life exact, they must use at least three nonland permanents and/or cards in hand to survive with 1 life at minimum. Also you can copy it even if you are in and that is with a Mirari at least.
But there is always another method I don't see being talked about: A followed up spell. Such as with Toxic Deluge, Damnation, Death Cloud, Black Sun's Zenith, etc. Take away an number of the creatures and/or cards in hand then make the choice more painful with Torment of Hailfire as the follow up.
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BSZ is the best card here.
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Its like if I would ask you which is better: Damnation, Exsanguinate or Mind Twist?
Its a very silly question because all three fulfill different roles. Killing Wave, Black Sun's Zenith and Torment of Hailfire all can fulfill a similar role, but they are not exactly the most comparable.
Really easy example. I cast Torment of Hailfire for X = 10, I flashback Increasing Vengeance and copy the Torment twice. X now equals 30 in this matter. Which means they are looking at losing 90 life, 30 cards in hand, 30 nonland permanents or a mixture of the three. Lets say each opponent has 40 life. To avoid losing the game, 17:30 of their choices must not be "lose 3 life" as if its 16:30 they lose the game as they are now at -2 life. That means they must have a combination of 17 nonland permanents and/or cards in hand in which they use to take the blows. Doing so leaves the opponents at 1 life if they only had enough cards on the battlefield or in hand.
Black Sun's Zenith for X = 10. It can only affect the creatures on the board state. So flashbacking an Increasing Vengeance only guarantees that the board will be cleaned of creatures unless they had a X/31+ creature(s).
Exsanguinate for X = 10. Using a flashbacked Increasing Vengeance only guarantees the opponents lose 30 life.
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My buddy and I were discussing Torment of Hailfire and agreed that on average you probably have to overcome about 12 cards between the hand and battlefield of opponents, meaning you need X to be at least 26 for a lethal Hailfire. Noticeably less then the 40 needed for a lethal exsanguinate, by this evaluation I've decided to test out Hailfire in my MBC Kokusho deck.
This is not cut and dry and it's true that Torment of Hailfire may on average cost less then Exsanguinate, but that doesn't account for fringe or even some more common Boardstates (like a buttload of tokens).
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If you like BSZ as a sweeper, then other budget sweepers like Life's Finale, Crux of Fate, etc, will serve better.
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Depends on how many times you browbeat. A one-shot like Browbeat or Dash Hopes is usually bad in this format because 1) life doesn't mean as much, and 2) it'll follow the "least harm" principle. Obviously you can use Furnace of Rath or Wound Reflfection to make that harm greater, but that's about all you can do.
On the other hand, something like Painful Quandary is at least passible, since it triggers frequently, and you can use Bloodchief Ascension or Megrim to get in some damage or Waste Not to get some card advantage or fast mana. (And it is, of course, playable in Nath because it triggers Nath's token-making ability, though it's below Sadistic Hypnotist and Mind Slash in that deck.) The key for PQ is that it depends on you (or at least one other player) winning by life loss, not Commander damage or infect or whatever.
This is like PQ, but only a one-shot. It can be a wincon, and you now get Blood Artist and friends to also manipulate an opponent in one direction. It's just that you need to pay (X/3)+Y+Z mana, where X is your opponent's life total, Y is the number of creatures he or she controls, and Z is the number of cards in his or her hand, instead of the X mana of Exsanguinate and Comet Storm. (Well, X+Y-1, where Y is your total number of opponents.)
I could see Hailfire or Scarabs having a place in the right deck. Exsanguinate's better, though.
Killing Wave is bad as a sweeper. If I have more creatures than you, it's likely I have more life than you, either because some of those creatures have lifelink or some other ability, or just because all those creatures have been eating away at your life total. I...guess it stops an infect player?
On phasing:
This is a very good point, Exsanguinate doesn't necessarily need to finish the game itself and it will still leave you on an advantageous position to win, while Torment would pretty much have to seal the deal to be worth it. Thanks for pointing that out, helps me consider the card more adequately.
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BG Nath Addict
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