I play in a LGS that promotes EDH as 'casual' (quote on casual because 90% are not casual)
I see many players complaining about Johira of the ghitu is not fun (wich I agree) because she can obliteration and Blighsteel colossus (or any sick thing), then someone says but...Zur the enchanter is not fun, Atraxa, praetors' voice is not fun when they just control you all the game and then win with the PW sick ultimate ability... and then some says ok, but Kaalia of the vast is boring and unfun because she plays Armageddon blowing our lands while she kepts hers with Avacyn... and.. and... a long etecetera.
I haven't seen a single EDH that is not build to do some 'sick' move, some people complaint about combos, some about MLD, some about big creatures, some about PW, when I hear all of that it seems... all magic if 'Unfair'
I love Sensei's divining top is by far my favorite card ever and I have a lot of fun when I am playing, but it seems every other player (who doesn't run it) think is unfun
Is there a 'line' in deckbuilding for multiplayer EDH we can check/use to make a 'fair' deck? how we define fair or unfair, how we define fun or unfun?
I think part of the answer depends on how quickly and reliably the 'sick' move can come online. The faster and more reliable wincons tend to be 'unfun' because the games end (well) before the other decks get to do much.
Cheers!
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If in the area, check out Gamers N Geeks and Mini War Games in Mobile, Alabama and Underhill's Games in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.
Your OP seems to be asking two questions: "How can you define fair or unfair?", and "How can you define fun or unfun?".
For first question, "How can you define fair or unfair", generally speaking, if you aren't "cheating" on mana costs by casting free spells or spells with heavily reduced mana costs and if you aren't using loops or combos to instantly win, you are considered to be playing a "fair" deck. For example, if you are running an Atraxa deck loaded with Planeswalkers, that would be considered a "fair" deck despite how well Atraxa works with Planeswalkers
The second question, "How can you define fun or unfun?", the short answers is that you really can't. More specifically, because "fun" and "unfun" are subjective terms and can't really be measured during the deck building process. You can take the same deck to different play groups, and different play groups will give different answers. If I was pressured into giving a way to measure how "fun" a deck is, however, the only metrics I could give are "do you like playing the deck?" and "can your playgroup win games against your deck without taking extreme measures?". If the answer to both questions is "yes", then I would consider the deck fun if I were in your play group.
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Very subjective of course and very difficult to define when you are playing with random people. The general train of thought is that casual decks should allow your opponents to "play magic". That means no stax strategies, no mass land destruction, no turn 3 infinite combo. My suggestion would be to try to have fun no matter what and if you really dislike a deck someone is playing, dont play with them next time. They are not beholden to your idea of fun just like you arent to theirs.
For me, infinite combos are "Unfun" although our group lets them accidentally happen. We also extremely dislike land destruction, or lockouts. My deck is capable of both of these, because Reaper King can kill lands and I do have ways to go "infinite" but more I have ways to go absurdly large.
But I dont do those unless someones land is a real issue for the fun of the game, or if rounds for modern is about to start and I need to speed up the game.
It sounds like your playgroup both uses a lot of powerful strategies, and likes to complain. That’s a bad combination.
In my experience, everything can be considered fun. It can be seen as adding variety, and either ends the game or effectively ends the game. The most frustration I’ve seen comes when players are, for example, battling it out on the board and then someone comes in with a different angle and combo’s off. In my experience though, that only happens unexpectedly one time. Thereafter, people assign the appropriate threat level to a deck that can win outside of the board, and players find things in their decks that interact with it or pressure that player out.
In regards to what’s fair, the Commander rules and the ban list are public. Anything that doesn’t violate the rules is fair. That won’t stop people from complaining about things as “unfair”, but those are the rules.
This may not be helpful in your situation but you might try building enough decks that you end up with a variety that can handle any occasion. I personally enjoy making decks and going through the process of brewing them up, just as much as I enjoy playing the game actually. But you may not like doing that; I don't deconstruct a deck once I build it either so my strategy is really only possible because I've been collecting for a long while. Just a thought, good luck!
You might get a lot of satisfaction out of making a deck that impedes everyone else from doing more than what your deck can. I enjoy playing things like Omen Machine, Uba Mask, Stranglehold, Widespread Panic or nastyness like Lightmine Field + Repercussion. There's a lot of things that slow down your opponent's ability to tutor, ramp, grow massive armies and such without also locking them out. Making it harder, maybe even deadly, for your opponent just to operate the deck certainly doesn't provoke people into anger like hard locks do...atleast in my playgroup (abt 20 ppl)
What is fun, and what is unfun will always be both a personal as well as meta call. Personally I dont enjoy things that come from nowhere and declare on the spot that someone is the victor or someone loses the game. My own personal favorite way to play is grindy attrition where it takes several turns of grinding someone down for them to die. When they know it is coming and yet its a matter of their ability to defend themselves vs your ability to overcome their defenses.
Fun vs unfun will always be open to debate. There is no right answer and there is no wrong answer.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The first thing that I notice about your group is that unfair=unfun.
Next is something that applies to not just your group = lockdowns are not fun for the people locked down.
Third: If I keep on losing, the EXACT same way, the situation becomes less fun real fast. This leads into: "if I can't learn from my loss, I wasted my time". Hopefully this is more of a temporary thing (ex. I know what card to add but don't have/can't afford it today) or the player is new (I have to wait until I am home to research what cards exist to get me out of the loss situation, but I'm not going to check in the middle of playing with a bunch of people because I am a decent human being) as supposed to the OMG-I-lost-I'm-throwing-a-tantrum-and-doing-nothing-to-help-myself-or-learn-from-this-situation people. It is really taxing to deal with these types of people because they need to be taught basic emotion control, on top of general strategy 101, and they need an immediate review of the cards they had in their hand, as well as what is in their deck to show "of course there is always a way out of a situation". The issue is that this can take over a month depending on how frequently you play with these types of people and how willing they are to actually learn and not just wallow in their personal miasmic cloud.
Finally: People made their deck to play it. Seeing their deck "work" is typically a requisite to a fun game. Some people just REALLY like a card in particular (often their commander) and really need that specific card to come out and "work" to have fun. The issue is that some people consider Armageddon that fun card (which keeps the opponents from playing really anything) or "work" is for that Planeswalker's ultimate to go off (unless we are talking Sarkhan, the Mad this is almost never going to be a feasible thing to allow) or the worse yet: they must win. If a person MUST win in order to have fun (yes I understand everyone wants to win sometimes, but I'm talking 100% of the time here) introduce them to the game Frisbee. That or start playing Horde Magic (check the homebrew section of the forums) so that everyone is working together instead of against each other, because that person direly needs to learn about teamwork and friendship.
Winning is Primary. Fun is secondary. Fairness is relative.
I pay $1 for entry to a pod at the LGS I frequent and for each opponent I knock out of the pod I get $1. Much like cutting through darksteel with a sword of kaldra, that is how ruthless I need to be.
If I want to play more casually at the shop, I pull whatever jank deck I felt like bringing with me and playing against the people outside the pod.
If I can successfully predict over half of an opponent's deck just by looking at their commander, it's not a casual deck.
It really doesn't matter what strategy they're playing.
If I can successfully predict over half of an opponent's deck just by looking at their commander, it's not a casual deck.
It really doesn't matter what strategy they're playing.
That probably depends on the commander too, though. Certain commanders just are better at playing certain strategies. The new Sphinx general, likely plays a bunch of counters, bounce spells, and sphinxes. It is not a strong commander (especially compared to some other blue ones), but by looking at it you can guess quite a bit of the deck.
Answer's gonna change from person to person. I hate Sensei's Divining Top - I think it's probably my least favourite card in the game whether it's on my board or yours (although I refuse to own a copy so it's probably on yours) and I will waste a tutor to kill it as opposed to grab my win con just to not have to deal with it - because I'm busy and I think it's really really rude to expect me to sit around while you fiddle with your top deck for sometimes ENTIRE MINUTES every turn. You seem cool with it and there's a prime example of how different things are going to be perceived by different people.
I'm a very competitive (and impatient) person so I play degenerate aggression builds most of the time and some people don't dig it and to myself I figure "well they're bad" and it's my personal opinion that outside of total turn one locks and cheese wins, nothing should be banned because we're grown-ups and Leovold, Emissary of Trest has no protection so it's your fault for building and playing so badly that he actually sticks, but I know I'm taking the game too seriously so I keep that to myself and try to have fun at the tables' pace. My enjoyment of the game isn't so important that I *need* to have fun at the expense of everyone else!
My honest outside opinion though and my stance when I actually get pointed out and told "you're ruining my night because your deck isn't fun to play against" is that losing makes everybody better at the game! If you're actually outright willing to look at a challenge and something that will make you better at Magic and say "NO GET RID OF IT" then you're probably not actually interested in playing MTG long-term. I'm not learning anything new playing against a deck that apparently can't keep up and you're not interested in cracking my build or trying something new so it's a zero sum game and neither of us are gonna get any fun out of it.
SDT is often viewed as unfun because of the amount of time it takes to use. Past that, whatever the playgroup thinks is fun or unfun is what dictates it. The issue I think your playgroup is having is that everyone enjoys playing with mean to degenerate things but is unhappy when everyone else does the same.
If there is a line, for me the question is "How would I feel if I won this way? How would I feel if someone beat me this way?" If the answer to either half is bored/ not good then I dont put it in the deck.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I'm a very competitive (and impatient) person so I play degenerate aggression builds most of the time and some people don't dig it and to myself I figure "well they're bad" and it's my personal
That is another thing, I see many people get "impatient" MTG is a strategy game, you have to wait while the other people are thinking, many times I see people loose because they are so focus on what they are doing only and paying zero atention to what their opponents are doing or having at the table.
I like to play against "degenerate agggro" and when I do, I need the top to dig for answers or else I cannot win
What I found really interesting about EDH when I first got into was the ability to make a coherent deck in a 100 card singleton format. It's synergy that still exists with any random set of the 100 cards, so what bothers me (and is caused by pretty much every WoTC printed EDH product) is when that is subverted. The proliferation commander you posted introduces a consistency that I think undermines the idea of commander. Your commander should have interaction with your deck, but having it be the immediate engine of your deck to the point that the deck is internally boring I think makes the game much less fun. Playing good stuff involving counters + Atraxa or expensive cards + Jhoira or expensive creatures + Kaalia is really boring. Unfun for me is synonymous for utterly predictable, which especially plagues any commander which allows tutoring, because the the deck functions identically game to game and the singleton aspect is just circumvented. I can beat those decks, but it's just not interesting.
EDH isn't a casual format though it's just a quirky format, you should know your deck and how the rules work. When using SDT you should be able to resolve it quickly. A lot of the hate towards cards and strategies comes from players just being upset over losing, but I think that someone's deck in EDH should be really their's and have a bit of creativity in it.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Itbis tougb to say since, as stated, fun is sjbjective. But look atvit this way. Of people are doing degenerate thi gs such as kaalia armageddon. If tbey complain abkut jhoira they can shove their foot in their mouth. They are being just as disgusting but whining because their sick move did not work.
I have played with people who got pissed when tbey lost even though they were play degenerate decks. They were upset tbqt someone had better draws and could stop them from comboing off.
Honestly, I define 'fun' and 'unfun' decks simply by how long (time-wise) turns take. The more your deck requires you to shuffle, the more unfun it is, typically. Shuffle-tribal decks typically have to shuffle their decks every 1-2 turns. Non shuffle-tribal decks only shuffle every 3+ turns.
Pretty simple measuring system, but you would be surprised at how effective it is.
Basically, I break things down into a few categories. Note these are just guidelines for avoiding complaints; do whatever you want, though consider bringing a range of decks with respect to power and speed.
Let people play their decks.
Don't play a strategy that most decks can't interact with.
Don't consume more than your fair share of play time.
Let people play their decks.
Don't run any strong resource-denial type cards like mass land destruction or mass discard. Boardwipes are better and people will eventually adapt to not playing all their threats at once. I wouldn't suggest pulling punches if you can win immediately, but avoid decks that will do so very early on. I find even taxing type cards will result in lack of action. I would suggest avoiding cards like Ghostly Prison in any white deck just because the deck is white and I want to see the use of Rhystic Study shamed.
Don't play a strategy that most decks can't interact with.
This really depends on the exact matchups you're playing, but a deck light on boardwipes just isn't to have a fun time vs sliver decks. On some level, it's not your fault if your opponents aren't playing enough removal, but the right kind of removal also matters. It will just make for a better game when players can reasonably expect to interact with their opponents' decks. An enchantment-heavy deck is just not going to provide that experience for certain opposing color combinations. Rakdos might be able to deal with 1-2 enchantments over the course of a game, but the matchup just isn't going to be fun for them so consider switching decks. If the game is large, they may be able to rely on the help of others to interact with your deck.
Along the same line, Instant/Sorcery threats that can only be stopped by countermagic are just going to be unsatisfying game enders some percentage of the time since only a single color really has any way to interact with them.
1-shot kills / combo kills that come out by surprise have the same effect. 1-shot infect kills or infinite combo engines that just end the game leave players with no ability to react or respond and are just anticlimatic. Whether you survive to the next turn should be easily predictable based on what is on board such that tapping out isn't a huge liability.
Basically, I think the ideally, whatever threats are involved should allow players the chance to untap, draw, and try to fight back rather than the only course of action is to push a deck to be the most efficient it can be and always keep instant speed removal open at all times. While this is competitively correct, I don't think players should be punished for not building their decks that way.
Don't consume more than your fair share of play time.
Taking extra turns is really the main culprit here, but I've seen it happen with Yidris fairly often. Seedborn Muse in Tasigur while strong, will greatly drain the available play time with all the decisions that need to be made. People at your table have a finite amount of play time. Try to respect that by not hogging that time. Don't play Expropriate. Just don't.
Ultimately the play group is the main factor here and you should just use human judgment with what you do. If everyone in your playgroup is playing competitively tuned decks, if you like doing that too, go for it. If your deck is blowing everyone else out of the water, consider building something at their power level or finding other players at yours. There are a lot of other finer detailed things one could get into but I think these broad points are good guidelines that can cover a lot.
If you can get me off my phone and engaged in the game then it's fun.
A game of Commander seems to go through three or four distinct phases.
1) Excitement and fun of playing cards you never imagined you'd get to play. Get my commander out and have fun doing it's thing for a while.
2) The sharks of the table start doing weird bull***** moves, and everyone starts arguing about choices and rules and why so-and-so should counter blah blah and I just retreat to my phone and let them do their big man things and when it's my turn I just quietly take my turn.
3) Eventually someone dies. Maybe it's me? I ask why they're even bothering when all I have left on the table is Purity and maybe Elspeth. Nobody ever seems to give a clear answer as to why they think I'm a threat when I've zoned out for the past 30 minutes.
4) Sometimes I'll survive phase 3 and the sharks have mostly been defeated. Then we can actually play the game and it's fun! If I lose, it's whatever, I'm just happy to make it out of phases 2 and 3 and play a fun game!
The worst part of Commander is the middle of the game, where all the fun gets thrown out the window. The big players get so wrapped up in trying to win that they don't seem to care that their behavior is creating a hostile and negative environment. And when I complain, I'm told to calm down.
I would say the single most unfun things people can do in games is anything that removes your opponents ability to do things or massively delays their turn. By that I mean and situation where you lock down mana such as Winter Orb or mass land destruction. Board wipes are fine and often necessary, but sometimes people play Narset and then swing with her casting Armageddon and now nobody is really in the game. That's unfun because the game isn't over, but it basically is for everyone else.
I've joked about building a deck with the idea of ramping up then tutoring for 2 cards, Mycosynth Lattice and Enduring Ideal. Then the first card you get with Enduring Ideal is Stony Silence. It would lock the board except for triggered abilities and then you can search for enchantments each upkeep to eventually win. However, I would never build the deck because it would be miserable for everyone else to play against since once Ideal resolves they're basically locked out of the game.
The other extremely unfun thing to play against is someone taking multiple turns in a row. This is especially true if playing in a 4 person EDH pod where you're already waiting for 3 turns to complete before you get your own again, now someone is taking multiple in a row and you're spending 20 minutes between each of your turns. It's extremely unfun for everyone else at the table.(as I tell people who do that "If you want to masturbate, please don't do it while I'm sitting at the table").
Rites of Flourishing is one of the most infuriating cards in the game for multiplayer formats. Every time I have been in a game where Opponent A casts it, Opponent B wins as a direct result.
Never have I seen it be stronger for its owner than his or her opponents, largely influenced by the type of deck (some decks get radically greater benefit from it than others, and its the 'others' that always want to play the damn thing).
I play Jhoira and rarely win. I've won 2 out of perhaps 50 matches of EDH? I run Jhoira turns, basically a tonne of cheap countermagic, a bunch of eldrazi fatties and boardwipes, and a load of extra turn cards. Our meta consists of pure mass destruction, board wipes and land destruction. One of our opponents plays Narset + Enter the Infinite + Beacon of Tomorrows. He essentially wins on turn 3/4 or draws himself into a automatic loss if either piece gets countered by me. Pretty much everyone in my meta blames me if he wins the game because I'm the only one that runs reliable counters, and they get salty if they don't get to play their generic aggro decks because of combos setting off before they get online. If I do counter his combo, the second I suspend a single Ulamog I get subsequently annihilated.
I think a key part of commander is playing a deck you enjoy, but also keeping in mind that you need to run your own answers within that deck, or combo off faster than your opponent. If somebody wins the game and you don't run a single counter/removal/exile/bounce card in your deck, I don't think you have a right to complain.
I see many players complaining about Johira of the ghitu is not fun (wich I agree) because she can obliteration and Blighsteel colossus (or any sick thing), then someone says but...Zur the enchanter is not fun, Atraxa, praetors' voice is not fun when they just control you all the game and then win with the PW sick ultimate ability... and then some says ok, but Kaalia of the vast is boring and unfun because she plays Armageddon blowing our lands while she kepts hers with Avacyn... and.. and... a long etecetera.
I haven't seen a single EDH that is not build to do some 'sick' move, some people complaint about combos, some about MLD, some about big creatures, some about PW, when I hear all of that it seems... all magic if 'Unfair'
I love Sensei's divining top is by far my favorite card ever and I have a lot of fun when I am playing, but it seems every other player (who doesn't run it) think is unfun
Is there a 'line' in deckbuilding for multiplayer EDH we can check/use to make a 'fair' deck? how we define fair or unfair, how we define fun or unfun?
Sorry for my english it is not my natal tongue
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
For first question, "How can you define fair or unfair", generally speaking, if you aren't "cheating" on mana costs by casting free spells or spells with heavily reduced mana costs and if you aren't using loops or combos to instantly win, you are considered to be playing a "fair" deck. For example, if you are running an Atraxa deck loaded with Planeswalkers, that would be considered a "fair" deck despite how well Atraxa works with Planeswalkers
The second question, "How can you define fun or unfun?", the short answers is that you really can't. More specifically, because "fun" and "unfun" are subjective terms and can't really be measured during the deck building process. You can take the same deck to different play groups, and different play groups will give different answers. If I was pressured into giving a way to measure how "fun" a deck is, however, the only metrics I could give are "do you like playing the deck?" and "can your playgroup win games against your deck without taking extreme measures?". If the answer to both questions is "yes", then I would consider the deck fun if I were in your play group.
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
But I dont do those unless someones land is a real issue for the fun of the game, or if rounds for modern is about to start and I need to speed up the game.
In my experience, everything can be considered fun. It can be seen as adding variety, and either ends the game or effectively ends the game. The most frustration I’ve seen comes when players are, for example, battling it out on the board and then someone comes in with a different angle and combo’s off. In my experience though, that only happens unexpectedly one time. Thereafter, people assign the appropriate threat level to a deck that can win outside of the board, and players find things in their decks that interact with it or pressure that player out.
In regards to what’s fair, the Commander rules and the ban list are public. Anything that doesn’t violate the rules is fair. That won’t stop people from complaining about things as “unfair”, but those are the rules.
You might get a lot of satisfaction out of making a deck that impedes everyone else from doing more than what your deck can. I enjoy playing things like Omen Machine, Uba Mask, Stranglehold, Widespread Panic or nastyness like Lightmine Field + Repercussion. There's a lot of things that slow down your opponent's ability to tutor, ramp, grow massive armies and such without also locking them out. Making it harder, maybe even deadly, for your opponent just to operate the deck certainly doesn't provoke people into anger like hard locks do...atleast in my playgroup (abt 20 ppl)
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Fun vs unfun will always be open to debate. There is no right answer and there is no wrong answer.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Next is something that applies to not just your group = lockdowns are not fun for the people locked down.
Third: If I keep on losing, the EXACT same way, the situation becomes less fun real fast. This leads into: "if I can't learn from my loss, I wasted my time". Hopefully this is more of a temporary thing (ex. I know what card to add but don't have/can't afford it today) or the player is new (I have to wait until I am home to research what cards exist to get me out of the loss situation, but I'm not going to check in the middle of playing with a bunch of people because I am a decent human being) as supposed to the OMG-I-lost-I'm-throwing-a-tantrum-and-doing-nothing-to-help-myself-or-learn-from-this-situation people. It is really taxing to deal with these types of people because they need to be taught basic emotion control, on top of general strategy 101, and they need an immediate review of the cards they had in their hand, as well as what is in their deck to show "of course there is always a way out of a situation". The issue is that this can take over a month depending on how frequently you play with these types of people and how willing they are to actually learn and not just wallow in their personal miasmic cloud.
Finally: People made their deck to play it. Seeing their deck "work" is typically a requisite to a fun game. Some people just REALLY like a card in particular (often their commander) and really need that specific card to come out and "work" to have fun. The issue is that some people consider Armageddon that fun card (which keeps the opponents from playing really anything) or "work" is for that Planeswalker's ultimate to go off (unless we are talking Sarkhan, the Mad this is almost never going to be a feasible thing to allow) or the worse yet: they must win. If a person MUST win in order to have fun (yes I understand everyone wants to win sometimes, but I'm talking 100% of the time here) introduce them to the game Frisbee. That or start playing Horde Magic (check the homebrew section of the forums) so that everyone is working together instead of against each other, because that person direly needs to learn about teamwork and friendship.
I hope this helps.
I pay $1 for entry to a pod at the LGS I frequent and for each opponent I knock out of the pod I get $1. Much like cutting through darksteel with a sword of kaldra, that is how ruthless I need to be.
If I want to play more casually at the shop, I pull whatever jank deck I felt like bringing with me and playing against the people outside the pod.
It really doesn't matter what strategy they're playing.
Fun = I actually display/do what my deck is built to do, doesn't mater if I win or not.
Unfun = I loose way too quickly, I am being denied what my deck is supposed to do (tax/counter), or someone else taking up too much time in the game
Competitive vs Fun is a different conversation.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
That probably depends on the commander too, though. Certain commanders just are better at playing certain strategies. The new Sphinx general, likely plays a bunch of counters, bounce spells, and sphinxes. It is not a strong commander (especially compared to some other blue ones), but by looking at it you can guess quite a bit of the deck.
I'm a very competitive (and impatient) person so I play degenerate aggression builds most of the time and some people don't dig it and to myself I figure "well they're bad" and it's my personal opinion that outside of total turn one locks and cheese wins, nothing should be banned because we're grown-ups and Leovold, Emissary of Trest has no protection so it's your fault for building and playing so badly that he actually sticks, but I know I'm taking the game too seriously so I keep that to myself and try to have fun at the tables' pace. My enjoyment of the game isn't so important that I *need* to have fun at the expense of everyone else!
My honest outside opinion though and my stance when I actually get pointed out and told "you're ruining my night because your deck isn't fun to play against" is that losing makes everybody better at the game! If you're actually outright willing to look at a challenge and something that will make you better at Magic and say "NO GET RID OF IT" then you're probably not actually interested in playing MTG long-term. I'm not learning anything new playing against a deck that apparently can't keep up and you're not interested in cracking my build or trying something new so it's a zero sum game and neither of us are gonna get any fun out of it.
If there is a line, for me the question is "How would I feel if I won this way? How would I feel if someone beat me this way?" If the answer to either half is bored/ not good then I dont put it in the deck.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
That is another thing, I see many people get "impatient" MTG is a strategy game, you have to wait while the other people are thinking, many times I see people loose because they are so focus on what they are doing only and paying zero atention to what their opponents are doing or having at the table.
I like to play against "degenerate agggro" and when I do, I need the top to dig for answers or else I cannot win
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
EDH isn't a casual format though it's just a quirky format, you should know your deck and how the rules work. When using SDT you should be able to resolve it quickly. A lot of the hate towards cards and strategies comes from players just being upset over losing, but I think that someone's deck in EDH should be really their's and have a bit of creativity in it.
I have played with people who got pissed when tbey lost even though they were play degenerate decks. They were upset tbqt someone had better draws and could stop them from comboing off.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Pretty simple measuring system, but you would be surprised at how effective it is.
Let people play their decks.
Don't run any strong resource-denial type cards like mass land destruction or mass discard. Boardwipes are better and people will eventually adapt to not playing all their threats at once. I wouldn't suggest pulling punches if you can win immediately, but avoid decks that will do so very early on. I find even taxing type cards will result in lack of action. I would suggest avoiding cards like Ghostly Prison in any white deck just because the deck is white and I want to see the use of Rhystic Study shamed.
Don't play a strategy that most decks can't interact with.
This really depends on the exact matchups you're playing, but a deck light on boardwipes just isn't to have a fun time vs sliver decks. On some level, it's not your fault if your opponents aren't playing enough removal, but the right kind of removal also matters. It will just make for a better game when players can reasonably expect to interact with their opponents' decks. An enchantment-heavy deck is just not going to provide that experience for certain opposing color combinations. Rakdos might be able to deal with 1-2 enchantments over the course of a game, but the matchup just isn't going to be fun for them so consider switching decks. If the game is large, they may be able to rely on the help of others to interact with your deck.
Along the same line, Instant/Sorcery threats that can only be stopped by countermagic are just going to be unsatisfying game enders some percentage of the time since only a single color really has any way to interact with them.
1-shot kills / combo kills that come out by surprise have the same effect. 1-shot infect kills or infinite combo engines that just end the game leave players with no ability to react or respond and are just anticlimatic. Whether you survive to the next turn should be easily predictable based on what is on board such that tapping out isn't a huge liability.
Basically, I think the ideally, whatever threats are involved should allow players the chance to untap, draw, and try to fight back rather than the only course of action is to push a deck to be the most efficient it can be and always keep instant speed removal open at all times. While this is competitively correct, I don't think players should be punished for not building their decks that way.
Don't consume more than your fair share of play time.
Taking extra turns is really the main culprit here, but I've seen it happen with Yidris fairly often. Seedborn Muse in Tasigur while strong, will greatly drain the available play time with all the decisions that need to be made. People at your table have a finite amount of play time. Try to respect that by not hogging that time. Don't play Expropriate. Just don't.
Ultimately the play group is the main factor here and you should just use human judgment with what you do. If everyone in your playgroup is playing competitively tuned decks, if you like doing that too, go for it. If your deck is blowing everyone else out of the water, consider building something at their power level or finding other players at yours. There are a lot of other finer detailed things one could get into but I think these broad points are good guidelines that can cover a lot.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
A game of Commander seems to go through three or four distinct phases.
1) Excitement and fun of playing cards you never imagined you'd get to play. Get my commander out and have fun doing it's thing for a while.
2) The sharks of the table start doing weird bull***** moves, and everyone starts arguing about choices and rules and why so-and-so should counter blah blah and I just retreat to my phone and let them do their big man things and when it's my turn I just quietly take my turn.
3) Eventually someone dies. Maybe it's me? I ask why they're even bothering when all I have left on the table is Purity and maybe Elspeth. Nobody ever seems to give a clear answer as to why they think I'm a threat when I've zoned out for the past 30 minutes.
4) Sometimes I'll survive phase 3 and the sharks have mostly been defeated. Then we can actually play the game and it's fun! If I lose, it's whatever, I'm just happy to make it out of phases 2 and 3 and play a fun game!
The worst part of Commander is the middle of the game, where all the fun gets thrown out the window. The big players get so wrapped up in trying to win that they don't seem to care that their behavior is creating a hostile and negative environment. And when I complain, I'm told to calm down.
I've joked about building a deck with the idea of ramping up then tutoring for 2 cards, Mycosynth Lattice and Enduring Ideal. Then the first card you get with Enduring Ideal is Stony Silence. It would lock the board except for triggered abilities and then you can search for enchantments each upkeep to eventually win. However, I would never build the deck because it would be miserable for everyone else to play against since once Ideal resolves they're basically locked out of the game.
The other extremely unfun thing to play against is someone taking multiple turns in a row. This is especially true if playing in a 4 person EDH pod where you're already waiting for 3 turns to complete before you get your own again, now someone is taking multiple in a row and you're spending 20 minutes between each of your turns. It's extremely unfun for everyone else at the table.(as I tell people who do that "If you want to masturbate, please don't do it while I'm sitting at the table").
Most of my decks: http://tappedout.net/users/thraashman/
Unfun
Most things are pretty neutral.
Rites of Flourishing is one of the most infuriating cards in the game for multiplayer formats. Every time I have been in a game where Opponent A casts it, Opponent B wins as a direct result.
Never have I seen it be stronger for its owner than his or her opponents, largely influenced by the type of deck (some decks get radically greater benefit from it than others, and its the 'others' that always want to play the damn thing).
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
I think a key part of commander is playing a deck you enjoy, but also keeping in mind that you need to run your own answers within that deck, or combo off faster than your opponent. If somebody wins the game and you don't run a single counter/removal/exile/bounce card in your deck, I don't think you have a right to complain.
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W