I was thinking of how to build an EDH that while a Discard themed deck, it has a stax/bounce sub theme (removing permanents from the board both ways). The issue is finding the correct color combination and commander.
Blue and black are both needed (for bounce and discard respectively). Black also brings tutors and what I am expecting the be the workhorse cards of the deck (Liliana's Caress, Bloodchief Ascension, Megrim, Warped Devotion, Waste Not, plus potentially some Bottomless Pit effects)) as well as spot removal and board wipes. Blue brings counter spells, bounce as well (both spot removal and wipes). The win cons would be either general damage recurring threats (Bloodghast, Nether Traitor) planeswalkers or the above cards
The issue comes in adding a third color to add more utility:
Red brings some more mass land destruction effects and some wheels as well as more discard oriented generals (Gwendyln di Corci, Nicol Bolas, Crosis the Purger) as well as the Bolas planes walkers and more punisher effects.
Cards like Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, etc. tend to favor wheel effects over straight-up discard. If you make them discard and draw 7, you can do it again. If you just make them discard... your discard triggers are done.
Cards like Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, etc. tend to favor wheel effects over straight-up discard. If you make them discard and draw 7, you can do it again. If you just make them discard... your discard triggers are done.
Using those cards in a dedicated discard deck effectively functions as a win more, and I probably should use more of a control shell, then?
My Nicol Bolas deck is bounce+discard themed. The link is in my sig. Some all-stars in the deck are Warped Devotion, Noetic Scales, and Blizzard Specter; they all either do double-duty or synergize well with both themes. The deck should be more of a control-shell; some of the best mass-bounce cards are symmetrical (Devastation Tide, Evacuation, and potentially Wash Out). You basically catch the opponents in a quandary where they have to try and play threats out of their hand quickly or risk losing them to discard, only to play right into mass removal or have their hard work undone by mass-bounce. It can be quite effective without being necessarily oppressive.
So to answer your question, Dimir is the main color combination. I liked adding red for things like Lavaborn Muse, Storm World, Gwendlyn Di Corci, and the Bolas cards. It's not really a necessary color, but it did the job for what I wanted to do with the deck. If you wanted to emphasize the bounce theme more, I really like your idea about Dromar, the Banisher as a commander. I think that overall, you can't really go wrong with any one of the three combinations (Dimir, Grixis, or Esper).
Cards like Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, etc. tend to favor wheel effects over straight-up discard. If you make them discard and draw 7, you can do it again. If you just make them discard... your discard triggers are done.
Using those cards in a dedicated discard deck effectively functions as a win more, and I probably should use more of a control shell, then?
Punishing your opponents for discarding can be used with regular discard effects, however if your opponents no longer have a hand they essentially become dead permanents. To make them effective, you need to not only have a means to make your opponent discard, but also get card(s) in their hand to discard. Wheels do both (as does something like Geier Reach Sanitarium), which makes them convenient, but it's also possible to pair the discarding with symmetrical draw effects... that just dilutes the deck strategy a bit, and can backfire if you don't get both halves of the strategy.
If you're trying to build a discard-based control deck, though, you don't really want to give your opponents more cards; you're making them discard for the purpose of preventing them from playing cards against you, so making them also draw cards is undermining the strategy. So, if your deck is doing what it's supposed to be doing, the Megrim-style cards stop doing anything.
My Nicol Bolas deck is bounce+discard themed. The link is in my sig. Some all-stars in the deck are Warped Devotion, Noetic Scales, and Blizzard Specter; they all either do double-duty or synergize well with both themes. The deck should be more of a control-shell; some of the best mass-bounce cards are symmetrical (Devastation Tide, Evacuation, and potentially Wash Out). You basically catch the opponents in a quandary where they have to try and play threats out of their hand quickly or risk losing them to discard, only to play right into mass removal or have their hard work undone by mass-bounce. It can be quite effective without being necessarily oppressive.
So to answer your question, Dimir is the main color combination. I liked adding red for things like Lavaborn Muse, Storm World, Gwendlyn Di Corci, and the Bolas cards. It's not really a necessary color, but it did the job for what I wanted to do with the deck. If you wanted to emphasize the bounce theme more, I really like your idea about Dromar, the Banisher as a commander. I think that overall, you can't really go wrong with any one of the three combinations (Dimir, Grixis, or Esper).
I just looked through your deck list which seemed very helpful. A few questions on it:
1. How much did come in to play abilities hurt when you bounced things? Would Torpor Orb and if playing Esper, Hushwing Griff have helped?
Cards like Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, etc. tend to favor wheel effects over straight-up discard. If you make them discard and draw 7, you can do it again. If you just make them discard... your discard triggers are done.
Using those cards in a dedicated discard deck effectively functions as a win more, and I probably should use more of a control shell, then?
Punishing your opponents for discarding can be used with regular discard effects, however if your opponents no longer have a hand they essentially become dead permanents. To make them effective, you need to not only have a means to make your opponent discard, but also get card(s) in their hand to discard. Wheels do both (as does something like Geier Reach Sanitarium), which makes them convenient, but it's also possible to pair the discarding with symmetrical draw effects... that just dilutes the deck strategy a bit, and can backfire if you don't get both halves of the strategy.
If you're trying to build a discard-based control deck, though, you don't really want to give your opponents more cards; you're making them discard for the purpose of preventing them from playing cards against you, so making them also draw cards is undermining the strategy. So, if your deck is doing what it's supposed to be doing, the Megrim-style cards stop doing anything.
I agree with your first part which is why I wanted to add the bounce and stax themes (the first puts cards in their hands and the latter prevents them from playing the cards in their hand), otherwise the discard engine stops working. Wheel effects, while good, would likely backfire more than they help (even if I put a Nekusar style package in this). Would the bounce and stax engines help or would it be trying to do too much?
3. Would a token control package akin to Stax be an effective win con as well?
4. Would more mana rocks (e.g. Talismans) help and was card draw an issue?
1. Yes, bouncing cards with ETB abilities can be a losing proposition, but the idea was to bounce the offending permanent and then make them discard it before they can replay it. It doesn't always work out that way, but ETB effects aren't necessarily a reason to fear using bounce. As for Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryf, I think those are solid cards to play in many metagames regardless of whether you are playing bounce or not so I say go for it if it is something that you are concerned with.
2. I really don't play decks that overtly go after other people's mana (at least in EDH I don't; other formats I love playing Stax, LD, and Prison). I really don't think that LD and discard go well together.
3. I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, but it sounds good so go for it.
4. Mana rocks are always welcome additions to any deck that isn't running cards like Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone type cards for mass removal. Since you aren't a green deck, you need to find other ways to accelerate your mana production. And Card draw should never be a problem in a blue and black deck.
3. Would a token control package akin to Stax be an effective win con as well?
4. Would more mana rocks (e.g. Talismans) help and was card draw an issue?
1. Yes, bouncing cards with ETB abilities can be a losing proposition, but the idea was to bounce the offending permanent and then make them discard it before they can replay it. It doesn't always work out that way, but ETB effects aren't necessarily a reason to fear using bounce. As for Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryf, I think those are solid cards to play in many metagames regardless of whether you are playing bounce or not so I say go for it if it is something that you are concerned with.
2. I really don't play decks that overtly go after other people's mana (at least in EDH I don't; other formats I love playing Stax, LD, and Prison). I really don't think that LD and discard go well together.
3. I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, but it sounds good so go for it.
4. Mana rocks are always welcome additions to any deck that isn't running cards like Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone type cards for mass removal. Since you aren't a green deck, you need to find other ways to accelerate your mana production. And Card draw should never be a problem in a blue and black deck.
1. Torpor Orb also doesn't seem like a bad idea in your deck either (it shuts down 2-3 cards or so).
2. Fair enough, though cards like Keldon Firebombers set everyone back to the same number of lands (which keeps the turbo ramping green deck in check).
3. Cards like Bitterblossom and a bunch of the white planes walkers (Elspeths for example).
4. True
Cards like Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, etc. tend to favor wheel effects over straight-up discard. If you make them discard and draw 7, you can do it again. If you just make them discard... your discard triggers are done.
Also, any thoughts on which color combo I should stick to?
Cards like Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, etc. tend to favor wheel effects over straight-up discard. If you make them discard and draw 7, you can do it again. If you just make them discard... your discard triggers are done.
Also, any thoughts on which color combo I should stick to?
Cards like Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, etc. tend to favor wheel effects over straight-up discard. If you make them discard and draw 7, you can do it again. If you just make them discard... your discard triggers are done.
Also, any thoughts on which color combo I should stick to?
If you are adding red, Sire of Insanity. I've seen that card shut down a table a couple of times when snuck out at the right time.
Thanks for the response.
I do want to put Torpor Orb in the deck (especially with how bounce heavy it is) to try to prevent it from backfiring too much as many creatures have powerful come into play abilities (one of the reasons to play white is for Humility and Hushwing Gryff which would add to it). To that end, I want to minimize the number of cards that it shuts down.
Also, I probably will not be running a lot of creatures, so Mind Slash would not be as effective in this build.
If I went straight Dimir, those were also some generals I was considering.
In these sorts of decks, how have the specter cards been (i.e. since they have to live a turn and connect to get their effect)?
I wanted to build a deck with the same general ideas as you've listed. I have pretty much accomplished the feat with The Mimeoplasm
The deck is in my signature, check it out, you can even playtest it. The current build is easy to manipulate into focusing more on enemy diacard/triggers rather than the current cycling/self discard triggers
I'd suggest Dromar, the Banisher as your commander. His bounce effect is massively relevant and he's a relatively quick clock with flying. Stick a Righteous Authority on him if you're going for a bounce-heavy deck and he can become a very, very effective win condition.
Since Esper cannot ramp nearly as fast as anything with green (plus Alexi requires cards of your own to pitch), would having creatures with high activation costs be a bit clunky. Also, is Dromar better for this sort of thing than Zur who can fetch out the enchantments that are needed?
frozen aether or time warp also support the strategy. Larceny might cost alot of mana but with a commander that gives you a free growing boardpresence it can be a blowout.
discard in stax is sometimes tricky because if you take their mana away their cards in hand are irrelevant.
on the other hand if there is no mana on the battlefield cards like necrogen mists can be quite a lock as noone can keep sculpting the cards that cannot be played emediately.
discard engines are nice with a draw engine on the battlefield to outgrind opponents. draw engines are also oftne played in other decks so its not uncommon a discard engine cannot break parity then.
constant discard like sire of insanity is good if you have the best boardstate.
this card is - for me - pure rakdos flavor.
and also very quick at getting rid of all your bounced stuff. i mean theirs.
Thanks for the suggestion. I have a Naya deck with Tana right now, so I would probably not make another Tana deck, though the build seems very interesting. I think I am going to stick with Grixis for a first try though it seems like something cool to try out if the other decks here don't work out. Sire of Insanity seems like an interesting card to try out. Overburden and Mana Breach seems strong though.
Since Esper cannot ramp nearly as fast as anything with green (plus Alexi requires cards of your own to pitch), would having creatures with high activation costs be a bit clunky.
Also, is Dromar better for this sort of thing than Zur who can fetch out the enchantments that are needed?
This really depends on your meta and your personal preferences. Zur is probably more powerful for this but he generally ends up with a big target on his head and it's very easy for the deck to go from what you want it to be to a typical Zur voltron deck. Dromar, on the other hand, doesn't have such a big target on his head and won't really risk warping the deck away from what you want it to be.
How often does using a quick burst of mana (I would have access to this no matter what) via Rituals backfire (i.e. via spot removal or counters)? It seems that you could be 2 for 1ed or worse. Ill probably start the deck out as Grixis, but possibly move it to Dromar if I amend it to Esper.
I built the Gwen deck above and am quickly realizing how useless red seems to be (it's primarily in there for Wildfire which is extremely good with Gwen, Keldon Firebombers to deal with ramp decks and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker), should I try to expand the deck to include more red?
should I try to expand the deck to include more red?
adding more cards of a certain color for the sake of adding the color?!?!?!??
NO!
the playablility of multicolor decks is much better if the colorrequirement isnt equal.
another thing about color is: if your splashcolor is heavy represented on cards that cost more mana cause they are finishers/lategamebombs the better.
if you know you dont need RR before turn 4 you can craft your manabase better.
this way you can focus on the early mana cards(most lands) for your main colors and let your later mana(rocks and some lands) care for the splashcolor. (and i see your manabase looks like this)
i cannot imagine a deck that can build a manabase where you could choose to play your BBB or 1UUU or RRR card on turn 4.
i have a 4 colordeck with just 2 red cards: one commander and one card in the deck. why? because it works and because i didnt add any hustle to make it playable. there were enough goldlands and everything. but commiting more to it would definitely hurt. no actually it wouldnt hurt - it would make the deck unplayable. i need early G and i have plenty of xBBor xWW cards that anything else would be too big of a stretch.
i would rather think about cutting Sin Prodder and play phyrexian arena over it (you allready have it in - just sayin) as you never need to stretch for early 3rd color this way. maybe you want another destructive force or devastation but not much else.
i mean keep it as it is if it works allready but this showcases how i think about it.
deck looks nice
Thanks
The idea of Wildfire was that it can sweep most of the board, while leaving Gwen alive (as it is a 3/5) (which is the same reason that I have Languish in the deck). Destructive Force unfortunately would kill Gwen as well.
It was more of a question of if there was any red cards I should add to the deck (preferably with R and no more) and should I consider dropping red entirely?
Sounds good. Could you link the list you are working on? Also, which color combination are you using?
I've just started building and haven't put a decklist up yet. I'm using Zur the Enchanter as commander though, so it will be WUB.
This is what I have so far, VERY rough draft with bits of multiple personality disorder thrown in. I haven't figured out what I'm doing with this yet, just a bunch of random ideas thrown into notepad.
Sounds good. Could you link the list you are working on? Also, which color combination are you using?
I've just started building and haven't put a decklist up yet. I'm using Zur the Enchanter as commander though, so it will be WUB.
This is what I have so far, VERY rough draft with bits of multiple personality disorder thrown in. I haven't figured out what I'm doing with this yet, just a bunch of random ideas thrown into notepad.
Sounds good. Could you link the list you are working on? Also, which color combination are you using?
I've just started building and haven't put a decklist up yet. I'm using Zur the Enchanter as commander though, so it will be WUB.
This is what I have so far, VERY rough draft with bits of multiple personality disorder thrown in. I haven't figured out what I'm doing with this yet, just a bunch of random ideas thrown into notepad.
Blue and black are both needed (for bounce and discard respectively). Black also brings tutors and what I am expecting the be the workhorse cards of the deck (Liliana's Caress, Bloodchief Ascension, Megrim, Warped Devotion, Waste Not, plus potentially some Bottomless Pit effects)) as well as spot removal and board wipes. Blue brings counter spells, bounce as well (both spot removal and wipes). The win cons would be either general damage recurring threats (Bloodghast, Nether Traitor) planeswalkers or the above cards
The issue comes in adding a third color to add more utility:
Red brings some more mass land destruction effects and some wheels as well as more discard oriented generals (Gwendyln di Corci, Nicol Bolas, Crosis the Purger) as well as the Bolas planes walkers and more punisher effects.
White would allow me to play some generals for Bounce Dromar, the Banisher, protection Lady Evangela, life gain Oloro, Ageless Ascetic and tutoring Zur the Enchanter. It also provides MLD, hate bears, enchantment and artifact tutoring as well all of which would be helpful. Two cards of note are Humility which combined with Night of Soul's Betrayal can lock out creatures, and Academy Rector.
Dimir is also an option with Dralnu, Lich Lord being able to recur some effects and the new The Scarab God also seem very strong.
Let me know if you have built this sort of deck before and which way to take it.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Using those cards in a dedicated discard deck effectively functions as a win more, and I probably should use more of a control shell, then?
So to answer your question, Dimir is the main color combination. I liked adding red for things like Lavaborn Muse, Storm World, Gwendlyn Di Corci, and the Bolas cards. It's not really a necessary color, but it did the job for what I wanted to do with the deck. If you wanted to emphasize the bounce theme more, I really like your idea about Dromar, the Banisher as a commander. I think that overall, you can't really go wrong with any one of the three combinations (Dimir, Grixis, or Esper).
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
If you're trying to build a discard-based control deck, though, you don't really want to give your opponents more cards; you're making them discard for the purpose of preventing them from playing cards against you, so making them also draw cards is undermining the strategy. So, if your deck is doing what it's supposed to be doing, the Megrim-style cards stop doing anything.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I just looked through your deck list which seemed very helpful. A few questions on it:
1. How much did come in to play abilities hurt when you bounced things? Would Torpor Orb and if playing Esper, Hushwing Griff have helped?
2. Would attacking mana bases have helped (Keldon Firebombers, Mana Vortex, Pox, Death Cloud, Sunder, Wildfire) deal with the issues above?
3. Would a token control package akin to Stax be an effective win con as well?
4. Would more mana rocks (e.g. Talismans) help and was card draw an issue?
I agree with your first part which is why I wanted to add the bounce and stax themes (the first puts cards in their hands and the latter prevents them from playing the cards in their hand), otherwise the discard engine stops working. Wheel effects, while good, would likely backfire more than they help (even if I put a Nekusar style package in this). Would the bounce and stax engines help or would it be trying to do too much?
1. Yes, bouncing cards with ETB abilities can be a losing proposition, but the idea was to bounce the offending permanent and then make them discard it before they can replay it. It doesn't always work out that way, but ETB effects aren't necessarily a reason to fear using bounce. As for Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryf, I think those are solid cards to play in many metagames regardless of whether you are playing bounce or not so I say go for it if it is something that you are concerned with.
2. I really don't play decks that overtly go after other people's mana (at least in EDH I don't; other formats I love playing Stax, LD, and Prison). I really don't think that LD and discard go well together.
3. I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, but it sounds good so go for it.
4. Mana rocks are always welcome additions to any deck that isn't running cards like Nevinyrral's Disk or Oblivion Stone type cards for mass removal. Since you aren't a green deck, you need to find other ways to accelerate your mana production. And Card draw should never be a problem in a blue and black deck.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
1. Torpor Orb also doesn't seem like a bad idea in your deck either (it shuts down 2-3 cards or so).
2. Fair enough, though cards like Keldon Firebombers set everyone back to the same number of lands (which keeps the turbo ramping green deck in check).
3. Cards like Bitterblossom and a bunch of the white planes walkers (Elspeths for example).
4. True
Also, any thoughts on which color combo I should stick to?
Going straight blue/black wouldn't be bad either.
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind can become anything that goes to the graveyard, including from discard
Wrexial, the Risen Deep can cast what they discard
Also, there's cards like
If you are adding red, Sire of Insanity. I've seen that card shut down a table a couple of times when snuck out at the right time.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Thanks for the response.
I do want to put Torpor Orb in the deck (especially with how bounce heavy it is) to try to prevent it from backfiring too much as many creatures have powerful come into play abilities (one of the reasons to play white is for Humility and Hushwing Gryff which would add to it). To that end, I want to minimize the number of cards that it shuts down.
Also, I probably will not be running a lot of creatures, so Mind Slash would not be as effective in this build.
If I went straight Dimir, those were also some generals I was considering.
In these sorts of decks, how have the specter cards been (i.e. since they have to live a turn and connect to get their effect)?
The deck is in my signature, check it out, you can even playtest it. The current build is easy to manipulate into focusing more on enemy diacard/triggers rather than the current cycling/self discard triggers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Since Esper cannot ramp nearly as fast as anything with green (plus Alexi requires cards of your own to pitch), would having creatures with high activation costs be a bit clunky. Also, is Dromar better for this sort of thing than Zur who can fetch out the enchantments that are needed?
Thanks for the suggestion. I have a Naya deck with Tana right now, so I would probably not make another Tana deck, though the build seems very interesting. I think I am going to stick with Grixis for a first try though it seems like something cool to try out if the other decks here don't work out. Sire of Insanity seems like an interesting card to try out. Overburden and Mana Breach seems strong though.
How often does using a quick burst of mana (I would have access to this no matter what) via Rituals backfire (i.e. via spot removal or counters)? It seems that you could be 2 for 1ed or worse. Ill probably start the deck out as Grixis, but possibly move it to Dromar if I amend it to Esper.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/779538-bounce-and-discard-edh
Thanks
The idea of Wildfire was that it can sweep most of the board, while leaving Gwen alive (as it is a 3/5) (which is the same reason that I have Languish in the deck). Destructive Force unfortunately would kill Gwen as well.
It was more of a question of if there was any red cards I should add to the deck (preferably with R and no more) and should I consider dropping red entirely?
Finally, I dropped Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver for The Scarab God, which seems like a better and more resilient win con.
Sounds good. Could you link the list you are working on? Also, which color combination are you using?
I've just started building and haven't put a decklist up yet. I'm using Zur the Enchanter as commander though, so it will be WUB.
This is what I have so far, VERY rough draft with bits of multiple personality disorder thrown in. I haven't figured out what I'm doing with this yet, just a bunch of random ideas thrown into notepad.
Some thoughts:
1. I like the discard package, but you can include the other words of cards (Words of Wind and Words of Worship) along with the packages for these cards.
2. Phyrexian Arena is always good to search out along with the above. You could also run some pillow fort combos Solemnity and Phyrexian Unlife and some taxing effects Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, and War Tax.
3. Discard wise, you can play Bottomless Pit and Necrogen Mists, and for draw, Dictate of Kruphix.
4. Aside from Hurkyl's, what else would combo with Lattice in your deck?
Awesome suggestions, definitely throwing in Phyrexian Arena to go along with Paradox Haze. Words of Worship will also help offset the cost of the arena.
As far as Hurkyl's Recall and Mycosynth Lattice, you could put any kind of Disenchant in there for removal, like Terashi's Grasp. Also, Mirage Mirror would be fun, along with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Baral's Expertise, Return to Dust, and Memnarch.