The title says it all. How many Counterspells should I be running in a mono blue commander deck? I feel like running too many is a waste, especially in multiplayer games. Anyone have suggestions?
Well is this 1v1 or multiplayer? What does your deck do to win the game?
I run a vClique deck that has 30 counterspell variants, and wins with Clique, shackles, or polymorph antics. Since the win-cons take up so little space, the deck has ample room for a massive counter selection.
Alternatively a combo deck may need more room for tutors, duplicate parts, draw, recursion, etc. A combat/aggro based deck needs room for creatures, pump/combat effects, protection/equipment/support, etc.
Depending on what your deck runs, dictates how much room you have for permission. The # of opponents also impacts the amount of 1:1 permission type spells you can efficiently run. Counterspell is a very good card, but it can only stop one threat at a time.
It really depends on what you're trying to do with your commander. If you are a combo oriented build, you only need to stop the card that stops you from winning so only a few are needed. If you're playing draw go, then counters like forbid or spell burst become an option. If you are playing multiplayer, like it or lump it, counters are only going to get you so far, so 8 to 10 at most is my opinion. Mass removal will do you far more good than counters will (or good prison effects).
If there are 100 cards in your deck and you are likely to need that counter by turn three right? by turn three you have seen 10 cards. Basically you need 10 counterspells (10%) for a 100 card deck. You probably need more if counters is your only defence (but thats a bad idea for multiplayer)
As stated above, it really depends. If you're running counters at all, around 10 is where you tend to start running out of -really- good ones, but your deck's makeup should determine how your counter suite looks. If you're not running a lot of removal you probably want to up the count, perhaps extremely so, and if your general makes counterspells better (Rashmi/Baral) you can run even more.
Your concern about their utility in multiplayer is valid, but that's more about a necessary shift in your playstyle than a shift in deckbuilding. You can't counter everything, so don't try, and eventually you'll develop a good sense of threat assessment which will help you ration your interaction. Is this going to be an unanswerable problem later? Is this going to seriously stifle my gameplan? Does it behoove someone else to answer this instead of me? All things to consider.
For reference, you should be running something along the lines of the following before considering other options:
I would have been with you up to this card. Tax-type counterspells are very weak in EDH for so many reasons, the biggest of which is that you'll rarely have them when they're strong(early game), and they don't do enough(if anything) late game. My feeling is, if you get down to 'tax counters', you either have plenty of counterspells in your deck already, or you need to revisit other possibilities. However, Mystic Confluence is an exception to the rule, given that you can stack the three taxes on them for a big hit; even late game, 9 is nothing to sneer at.
MRdown2urth makes a good point: versatility is the name of the game. It's frustrating to hold on to cards that have one narrow frame. That's not to say Counterspell or Negate don't have their uses, but being able to pull off shenanigans on a spell you allowed with Insidious Will, or getting someone just after they breathed a sigh of relief with Cryptic Command is its own level of satisfying.
Creedmoor, I would say that 10 is a magic number, dependent on what your general does. Start from there, and see what else may work well with your general's own mechanics.
As others have said, there isn't going to be a catch-all answer here at all. Baral, Chief of Compliance control is going to have waaay more than my Talrand, Sky Summoner aggro deck will. I'll check back to see if you provide some more details and hash out numbers then
Really depends on your playgroup. I generally dislike "efficient" counterspells in EDH. I tend to go for ones with flexibility or upside. If possible I prefer my counterspells to exile.
As for numbers, my stance would be less than 10. You don't wanna make games feel oppressive or stifled. It's all about having a good time. If you're playing B, might I suggest preemptive effects like selective discard or card removal in the library.
I had started off my Thassa, God of the Sea deck with quite a few counterspells and I have narrowed it down to the ones I like. I never really counted them up, so I decided to do so for the sake of this thread. Here is what I have in the deck:
I also included Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. It is not exaclty a counterspell, but stops counter wars.
Now obviously a deck like Talrand would run more, I find that this number works really well when combined with the rest of the spells in the deck. The important thing to keep in mind with counterspells is that they are completely reactionary. This means they only work if you have them in hand when the spell you want to counter is cast. I know this seems obvious, but it is important that your deck have ways to deal with the board if it ever gets developed. In a multiplayer setting, you will pretty much never have enough counterspells to stop the other 3 players from doing everything. So, Evacuation, Devastation Tide and Cyclonic Rift are good cards to include to handle anything that gets through your counterspells.
I would have been with you up to this card. Tax-type counterspells are very weak in EDH for so many reasons, the biggest of which is that you'll rarely have them when they're strong(early game), and they don't do enough(if anything) late game. My feeling is, if you get down to 'tax counters', you either have plenty of counterspells in your deck already, or you need to revisit other possibilities. However, Mystic Confluence is an exception to the rule, given that you can stack the three taxes on them for a big hit; even late game, 9 is nothing to sneer at.
I disagree with this. Sure, people often have lots of mana late game in EDH, but they use that mana to cast big mana spells. A "tax" of one mana (e.g. Force Spike) likely isn't enough in most situations (though Mana Tithe can be quite good to protect your stuff from other people's counters - often they're only keeping up enough mana for the counter they had), but from my experience Mana Leak is one of the best counterspells in the format - it costs two mana, only one of which is coloured and will almost always counter the things that need countering (i.e. stuff that will win the game). Spell Pierce is also excellent - early game, it stops major threats like Sol Ring, while late game it still holds up well for stuff like Tooth and Nail or Omniscience which people will tap out for.
Mystic Confluence on the other hand, is not a good counterspell (it's not a bad card but considering it as a counterspell, it's poor). It requires you to hold up 5 mana, meaning you probably aren't doing much to advance your actual game plan on your turn. If you're playing a pure "draw go" type deck, maybe, but that kind of deck doesn't transfer into a multiplayer environment very well. I don't even rate the much heralded Cryptic Commandthat highly, thanks to the high CMC and awkward mana cost (I'd run stuff like Delay - arguably the most underrated counterspell in the format, given it's cheap, easy to cast, and usually stops the threat long enough for you to win - above it), but mono-blue can probably get away with it.
Overall, I'd say that, in a multiplayer format like EDH, you shouldn't be trying to control everything - it's simply not feasible. You only really need to be stopping your opponents wincons (or instead their enablers such as tutors or very fast mana), while protecting your own. And for that, efficiency is much better than flexibility. Sure, Cryptic Command lets me do more than just counter, but Arcane Denial means I only need to have two mana more than my wincon costs to feel safe in seeing out the game.
I would have been with you up to this card. Tax-type counterspells are very weak in EDH for so many reasons, the biggest of which is that you'll rarely have them when they're strong(early game), and they don't do enough(if anything) late game. My feeling is, if you get down to 'tax counters', you either have plenty of counterspells in your deck already, or you need to revisit other possibilities. However, Mystic Confluence is an exception to the rule, given that you can stack the three taxes on them for a big hit; even late game, 9 is nothing to sneer at.
MRdown2urth makes a good point: versatility is the name of the game. It's frustrating to hold on to cards that have one narrow frame. That's not to say Counterspell or Negate don't have their uses, but being able to pull off shenanigans on a spell you allowed with Insidious Will, or getting someone just after they breathed a sigh of relief with Cryptic Command is its own level of satisfying.
Creedmoor, I would say that 10 is a magic number, dependent on what your general does. Start from there, and see what else may work well with your general's own mechanics.
Different metas then. Mana Leak is better than Counterspell in competitive playgroups. PhroX makes the point on this that people tap out for stuff in EDH.
If your opponents are routinely leaving up gobs of mana, you're probably winning anyways from sheer mana efficiency.
@MR: If you start leaving up 3 mana every game, I'd take that trade for having a semi-dead card in my deck every bloody time. Triple stone-rain and I don't even have to spend mana or a card? Yes. Please.
More often than not, I'm happy to have you have the mana for removal spells. It helps me deal with the other two or three players. But you're not going to be casting stuff that will actually win you the game, which is what matters. And Mana Leak will either counter those things, or make you play around it in which case, you're not winning for quite some time.
Yeah, 'fraid I'm going to have to disagree on the 'tax counters', but I'm willing to concede that's my meta. I do still perform the bad habit of tapping out(even if I'm going for a game winner that I know no one can stop, I still cringe), but my time playing with Niv has taught me to hold back some just in case(for tax or my own counters).
Leak may indeed work better in competitive formats, but I wouldn't count it in a high percentile for consideration. If you're going to tax out mana from people to prevent them from playing multiple spells, at least go for Power Sink so they have no CHOICE but to tap the lands.
EDIT: Off topic, but I never thought that many people here tapped out to play their wincon. My group got over that habit when we got into EDH.
It's a judgement call. Sometimes you tap out, sometimes you don't. It depends on what the board states are, who's holding out mana, how quickly you think you need to win based on what other people are doing, what your deck is (e.g. if you've no way of reacting to countermagic, you should just try to play through it rather than trying to play around 1 of the possible spells it could be) and so on. And of course sometimes you'll get it wrong. But a general "don't tap out" attitude seems really odd to me.
Leak may indeed work better in competitive formats, but I wouldn't count it in a high percentile for consideration. If you're going to tax out mana from people to prevent them from playing multiple spells, at least go for Power Sink so they have no CHOICE but to tap the lands.
Power Sink is a worthless spell (with the possible exception of Mizzix). It costs you 4 mana to get the amount of tax Mana Leak can do for 2. Just to clarify, I do think the vast majority of "tax" counterspells are utter garbage. But Mana Leak, Spell Pierce and depending on the meta maybe Flusterstorm are just so efficient that they're well worth the occasional time someone will pay the tax. Low mana cost is the key for a good counterspell - it allows it to be used earlier in the game, and it frees you up to take more actions during your turn while still holding up mana to counter. I'd take a cmc 2 spell that counters 90% of the time over a cmc 3 one that does it 100% of the time or a cmc 4 one that does it 100% and adds some upside like drawing a card.
Mana Leak usually doesn't counter threats, it usually counters interaction. You tap low (but not out) for a threat, leaving up interaction mana for other players' turns, and leak eats your interaction. Early game it's obviously a hard counter.
It depends really. If you have a more control based bill, you might need more; as insurance plans, then maybe not as many and more tutors? In my Mizzix deck, I have about ten-twelve, but that's also general specific. In my Venser deck, I run about seven. Mainly because Venser acts as a pseudo counter for quite a bit.
Also depending on the utility of the general or synergy with other interactions in the deck may weigh on having specific counterspells. If a UU counter, then Counterspell may be up your alley. If you need an insurance/bluff counter spell Pact of Negation is perfect if you're about to win the game or something. For example in Mizzix I have Mindswipe and Syncopate etc. because they are X spells which are better due to what Mizzix does. In Venser, I run Disappearing Act and Familiar's Ruse because they let me recast Venser for extra value.
In short I'd say 6-7 is ideal, so that you can draw into them when needed, and to answer other things. To help make the decision easier, look at counters that have other upside, (Cryptic Command, Mystic Confluence, etc.) so that the slot isn't just a counterspell. All-in-one counters like Disallow are great as well.
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I run a vClique deck that has 30 counterspell variants, and wins with Clique, shackles, or polymorph antics. Since the win-cons take up so little space, the deck has ample room for a massive counter selection.
Alternatively a combo deck may need more room for tutors, duplicate parts, draw, recursion, etc. A combat/aggro based deck needs room for creatures, pump/combat effects, protection/equipment/support, etc.
Depending on what your deck runs, dictates how much room you have for permission. The # of opponents also impacts the amount of 1:1 permission type spells you can efficiently run. Counterspell is a very good card, but it can only stop one threat at a time.
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Cryptic command
Mystic confluence
Dismiss
Arcane Denial
I also have a couple more effienct ones like counterspell and void shatter or other utility.. muddle the mixture.
I have used dream fracture in the past.
If there are 100 cards in your deck and you are likely to need that counter by turn three right? by turn three you have seen 10 cards. Basically you need 10 counterspells (10%) for a 100 card deck. You probably need more if counters is your only defence (but thats a bad idea for multiplayer)
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Your concern about their utility in multiplayer is valid, but that's more about a necessary shift in your playstyle than a shift in deckbuilding. You can't counter everything, so don't try, and eventually you'll develop a good sense of threat assessment which will help you ration your interaction. Is this going to be an unanswerable problem later? Is this going to seriously stifle my gameplan? Does it behoove someone else to answer this instead of me? All things to consider.
For reference, you should be running something along the lines of the following before considering other options:
Sometimes I'll use goofier stuff that I would call "counter-adjacent":
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
My only mono blue runs 5-6 counters, but there's a little more interference in the deck in general.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I would have been with you up to this card. Tax-type counterspells are very weak in EDH for so many reasons, the biggest of which is that you'll rarely have them when they're strong(early game), and they don't do enough(if anything) late game. My feeling is, if you get down to 'tax counters', you either have plenty of counterspells in your deck already, or you need to revisit other possibilities. However, Mystic Confluence is an exception to the rule, given that you can stack the three taxes on them for a big hit; even late game, 9 is nothing to sneer at.
MRdown2urth makes a good point: versatility is the name of the game. It's frustrating to hold on to cards that have one narrow frame. That's not to say Counterspell or Negate don't have their uses, but being able to pull off shenanigans on a spell you allowed with Insidious Will, or getting someone just after they breathed a sigh of relief with Cryptic Command is its own level of satisfying.
Creedmoor, I would say that 10 is a magic number, dependent on what your general does. Start from there, and see what else may work well with your general's own mechanics.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
As for numbers, my stance would be less than 10. You don't wanna make games feel oppressive or stifled. It's all about having a good time. If you're playing B, might I suggest preemptive effects like selective discard or card removal in the library.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Actual Counterspells
Counter Abilities
I also included Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. It is not exaclty a counterspell, but stops counter wars.
Now obviously a deck like Talrand would run more, I find that this number works really well when combined with the rest of the spells in the deck. The important thing to keep in mind with counterspells is that they are completely reactionary. This means they only work if you have them in hand when the spell you want to counter is cast. I know this seems obvious, but it is important that your deck have ways to deal with the board if it ever gets developed. In a multiplayer setting, you will pretty much never have enough counterspells to stop the other 3 players from doing everything. So, Evacuation, Devastation Tide and Cyclonic Rift are good cards to include to handle anything that gets through your counterspells.
I disagree with this. Sure, people often have lots of mana late game in EDH, but they use that mana to cast big mana spells. A "tax" of one mana (e.g. Force Spike) likely isn't enough in most situations (though Mana Tithe can be quite good to protect your stuff from other people's counters - often they're only keeping up enough mana for the counter they had), but from my experience Mana Leak is one of the best counterspells in the format - it costs two mana, only one of which is coloured and will almost always counter the things that need countering (i.e. stuff that will win the game). Spell Pierce is also excellent - early game, it stops major threats like Sol Ring, while late game it still holds up well for stuff like Tooth and Nail or Omniscience which people will tap out for.
Mystic Confluence on the other hand, is not a good counterspell (it's not a bad card but considering it as a counterspell, it's poor). It requires you to hold up 5 mana, meaning you probably aren't doing much to advance your actual game plan on your turn. If you're playing a pure "draw go" type deck, maybe, but that kind of deck doesn't transfer into a multiplayer environment very well. I don't even rate the much heralded Cryptic Command that highly, thanks to the high CMC and awkward mana cost (I'd run stuff like Delay - arguably the most underrated counterspell in the format, given it's cheap, easy to cast, and usually stops the threat long enough for you to win - above it), but mono-blue can probably get away with it.
Overall, I'd say that, in a multiplayer format like EDH, you shouldn't be trying to control everything - it's simply not feasible. You only really need to be stopping your opponents wincons (or instead their enablers such as tutors or very fast mana), while protecting your own. And for that, efficiency is much better than flexibility. Sure, Cryptic Command lets me do more than just counter, but Arcane Denial means I only need to have two mana more than my wincon costs to feel safe in seeing out the game.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Different metas then. Mana Leak is better than Counterspell in competitive playgroups. PhroX makes the point on this that people tap out for stuff in EDH.
If your opponents are routinely leaving up gobs of mana, you're probably winning anyways from sheer mana efficiency.
@MR: If you start leaving up 3 mana every game, I'd take that trade for having a semi-dead card in my deck every bloody time. Triple stone-rain and I don't even have to spend mana or a card? Yes. Please.
Cool. That means you're waiting 3 more turns to play your wincon. By which stage I've probably won myself.
EDIT: Off topic, but I never thought that many people here tapped out to play their wincon. My group got over that habit when we got into EDH.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
And of course, Mana Leak is only one of my counterspells. I'm still running some "hard" counters alongside it (Counterspell, Arcane Denial, Negate, Swan Song plus Force of Will, Pact of Negation and/or Mana Drain if I have spares, with Delay, Spell Pierce and maybe Flusterstorm or Mental Misstep to round up the basic countermagic package), so if you do use that removal on my stuff, chances are, it's cheapness isn't going to help you.
Leak may indeed work better in competitive formats, but I wouldn't count it in a high percentile for consideration. If you're going to tax out mana from people to prevent them from playing multiple spells, at least go for Power Sink so they have no CHOICE but to tap the lands.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
It's a judgement call. Sometimes you tap out, sometimes you don't. It depends on what the board states are, who's holding out mana, how quickly you think you need to win based on what other people are doing, what your deck is (e.g. if you've no way of reacting to countermagic, you should just try to play through it rather than trying to play around 1 of the possible spells it could be) and so on. And of course sometimes you'll get it wrong. But a general "don't tap out" attitude seems really odd to me.
Power Sink is a worthless spell (with the possible exception of Mizzix). It costs you 4 mana to get the amount of tax Mana Leak can do for 2. Just to clarify, I do think the vast majority of "tax" counterspells are utter garbage. But Mana Leak, Spell Pierce and depending on the meta maybe Flusterstorm are just so efficient that they're well worth the occasional time someone will pay the tax. Low mana cost is the key for a good counterspell - it allows it to be used earlier in the game, and it frees you up to take more actions during your turn while still holding up mana to counter. I'd take a cmc 2 spell that counters 90% of the time over a cmc 3 one that does it 100% of the time or a cmc 4 one that does it 100% and adds some upside like drawing a card.
Also depending on the utility of the general or synergy with other interactions in the deck may weigh on having specific counterspells. If a UU counter, then Counterspell may be up your alley. If you need an insurance/bluff counter spell Pact of Negation is perfect if you're about to win the game or something. For example in Mizzix I have Mindswipe and Syncopate etc. because they are X spells which are better due to what Mizzix does. In Venser, I run Disappearing Act and Familiar's Ruse because they let me recast Venser for extra value.
In short I'd say 6-7 is ideal, so that you can draw into them when needed, and to answer other things. To help make the decision easier, look at counters that have other upside, (Cryptic Command, Mystic Confluence, etc.) so that the slot isn't just a counterspell. All-in-one counters like Disallow are great as well.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar