So I've been sitting on this nifty alter Kaya, Ghost Assassin for some time, and I need to figure out if this is something I will ever actually use. I've been a bit of a cruel tease towards a buddies desires to put her in his Atraxa list, and have thus far refused to trade her off.
I'm having a bit of a hard time evaluating her power. I'm seeing her as a white-splash Syphon Mind. The creature-flicker on her is interesting to reset her, or to remove a threat for a turn, but seems too slow for greedy etb-value.
The meta(s) that I play in have long grown past the value of a 4-drop syphon mind variant. Her draw/discard makes her seem good in multiplayer, but her temporarily removing one threat seems only good in 1v1.
What is everyone's opinion on her? Is she seeing any edh play at all? Are there any nifty interactions with her that I'm missing?
I have run Syphon Mind for years in mono black, but it likely will be my next cut. The potential for two of them for four (or at least using her as a distraction from attacking you in the meantime after the first) seems strong. I'd still only use her in a life gain/loss deck, though.
Planeswalkers are very weak in multiplayer. Unless you have a deck in which she can reliably survive, there is no point.
If you have a deck in which you will be able to reliably protect her, you have to be sure the game will go long enough for her to be relevant. If you make each opponent discard a card, but it's turn 4 and they have pretty full hands, and they combo off the next turn, it doesn't matter.
I think she could be interesting with a lot of hate cards. If you have Rule of Law, Torpor Orb, Stasis, Winter Orb, etc, Kaya could take over the game. But if you are playing some kind of Esper Stax deck, then literally any planeswalker with a relevant ultimate could win the game. Kaya seems pretty low power in that she doesn't actually win the game. Sure, drawing lots of cards and eroding your opponents' hands is good, but is it as good as a Narset Transcendent ultimate?
Maybe if it is a WB stax deck it could be good enough to make it? Just a control deck with lots of wraths and Oppression? Kambal, consul of allocation seems like the oppressive general for the job. You don't want something with activated abilities so you can play Cursed Totem, etc. I could see Kaya being good in such a list.
Kaya looks good to me. I acquired a copy for my Selenia deck, but I haven't drawn it yet. I like that she can save herself or a creature from a board wipe.
She has some stops political power in multiplayer. "Oh you just played [any legendary Eldrazi, or any other major threat], and no one has a board wipe? Let's keep you off that until someone does." Especially if you can defend yourself from it, then you can turn to your other opponents and say, "I'll keep that threat busy, if you so [thing] for me."
I've never been unhappy to draw her in my Ayli deck. The incremental value and ability to long blink stuff for ETB effects is pretty sweet in some Orzhov builds. The card advantage on her -2 is pretty great.
Also, I don't know what groups people are playing in, but the statement that Planeswalkers are bad in multiplayer is a farce. There is so much going on at the same time in EDH that I often see Planeswalkers sit on the board as people try to balance keeping them in check in addition to other threats. Orzhov is a color that can easily repeatedly board wipe and remove threats that could take Kaya out, which is typically what I do in Ayli, just leaving her on the board to generate card advantage.
I've thought about her in Oloro, but she never makes the cut because frankly, most of the time I have better ways to gain life, so really the only thing she offers me is "slow blink It That Betrays or Blightsteel Colossus".
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I see her as valid in places like Karlov of the Ghost Council, where you're wanting as many life gain triggers as possible. Other than that I don't really see her value, at least in EDH.
I have a Karlov of the Ghost Council, soul sister deck. I put Kaya, Ghost Assassin in to increase my ETB's, which she does, but by far her most useful talent is to lock out a big threat, which I learned the hard way.
I routinely loan out my decks, because not everyone at my LGS has a commander deck. I was playing against Karlov with my Skullbriar, the Walking Grave deck. The guy who was piloting Karlov drew into Kaya late in the game and used her to lock out skullbriar. By that point in the game, skullbriar's command tax was so high I could not afford to redirect him to the command zone. It really crippled my game plan, and left me vulnerable to the other 2 players.
I wouldn't call her an auto include, but she has much more impact than she looks.
She's really, really, extremely bad and you should avoid playing her in any but the goofiest of casual decks.
... like really bad dude.
on what rationale?
her blink effect can push some pretty hard value though its slow, her life gain is ass, and she's probably going to die the turn you use her to draw cards... but you're using her to draw cards and replace herself
she's not stupid good or broken or anything, but i'm not really seeing her as "like really bad" she's more of forgettably average. decent if there's no real alternatives for what you're trying to use her for. i don't know, i feel like we're always so quick to proclaim a card as 'like really bad dude' when its more that they're just not great.
She's really, really, extremely bad and you should avoid playing her in any but the goofiest of casual decks.
... like really bad dude.
on what rationale?
her blink effect can push some pretty hard value though its slow, her life gain is ass, and she's probably going to die the turn you use her to draw cards... but you're using her to draw cards and replace herself
she's not stupid good or broken or anything, but i'm not really seeing her as "like really bad" she's more of forgettably average. decent if there's no real alternatives for what you're trying to use her for. i don't know, i feel like we're always so quick to proclaim a card as 'like really bad dude' when its more that they're just not great.
Her blink effect is -way- too slow to accrue value in all but the durdliest of decks. Immediately blinking something is good. Waiting until your next upkeep relegates this ability to removal duty, which it does quite poorly compared to everything else WB has to offer.
She's a planeswalker, which is one of the easiest card types to answer in EDH. Like most planeswalkers, unless she's well protected, you're not likely to be getting more than 1.5 activations on average. And if she -is- well protected, I can think of a bunch of other walkers I'd rather have in play.
Her card advantage mode is unimpressive compared to a wealth of alternatives in black. Syphon Mind never comes close to making the cut in any decent deck, and her average case is Syphon Mind with minor upside and a more restrictive mana cost.
If she was of 'average' quality for WB I'd be very concerned about how terrible both of those colors are. She's got two bad modes, and one nearly unplayable one. I'd compare her to a bottom-tier charm or a command but at least those are instants. She is really, really bad.
I played her a few games in my Atraxa Superfriends deck and cut her very quickly. She has little to no impact in the board and the amount of time needed for her to truly make a difference is too damn high. Wished she was just Phyrexian Arena everytime.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
So I've been sitting on this nifty alter Kaya, Ghost Assassin for some time, and I need to figure out if this is something I will ever actually use. I've been a bit of a cruel tease towards a buddies desires to put her in his Atraxa list, and have thus far refused to trade her off.
I'm having a bit of a hard time evaluating her power. I'm seeing her as a white-splash Syphon Mind. The creature-flicker on her is interesting to reset her, or to remove a threat for a turn, but seems too slow for greedy etb-value.
The meta(s) that I play in have long grown past the value of a 4-drop syphon mind variant. Her draw/discard makes her seem good in multiplayer, but her temporarily removing one threat seems only good in 1v1.
What is everyone's opinion on her? Is she seeing any edh play at all? Are there any nifty interactions with her that I'm missing?
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... like really bad dude.
If you have a deck in which you will be able to reliably protect her, you have to be sure the game will go long enough for her to be relevant. If you make each opponent discard a card, but it's turn 4 and they have pretty full hands, and they combo off the next turn, it doesn't matter.
I think she could be interesting with a lot of hate cards. If you have Rule of Law, Torpor Orb, Stasis, Winter Orb, etc, Kaya could take over the game. But if you are playing some kind of Esper Stax deck, then literally any planeswalker with a relevant ultimate could win the game. Kaya seems pretty low power in that she doesn't actually win the game. Sure, drawing lots of cards and eroding your opponents' hands is good, but is it as good as a Narset Transcendent ultimate?
Maybe if it is a WB stax deck it could be good enough to make it? Just a control deck with lots of wraths and Oppression?
Kambal, consul of allocation seems like the oppressive general for the job. You don't want something with activated abilities so you can play Cursed Totem, etc. I could see Kaya being good in such a list.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
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Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Also, I don't know what groups people are playing in, but the statement that Planeswalkers are bad in multiplayer is a farce. There is so much going on at the same time in EDH that I often see Planeswalkers sit on the board as people try to balance keeping them in check in addition to other threats. Orzhov is a color that can easily repeatedly board wipe and remove threats that could take Kaya out, which is typically what I do in Ayli, just leaving her on the board to generate card advantage.
(Also known as Xenphire)
On phasing:
Love the flavour though, she's pretty awesome.
I routinely loan out my decks, because not everyone at my LGS has a commander deck. I was playing against Karlov with my Skullbriar, the Walking Grave deck. The guy who was piloting Karlov drew into Kaya late in the game and used her to lock out skullbriar. By that point in the game, skullbriar's command tax was so high I could not afford to redirect him to the command zone. It really crippled my game plan, and left me vulnerable to the other 2 players.
I wouldn't call her an auto include, but she has much more impact than she looks.
on what rationale?
her blink effect can push some pretty hard value though its slow, her life gain is ass, and she's probably going to die the turn you use her to draw cards... but you're using her to draw cards and replace herself
she's not stupid good or broken or anything, but i'm not really seeing her as "like really bad" she's more of forgettably average. decent if there's no real alternatives for what you're trying to use her for. i don't know, i feel like we're always so quick to proclaim a card as 'like really bad dude' when its more that they're just not great.
Her blink effect is -way- too slow to accrue value in all but the durdliest of decks. Immediately blinking something is good. Waiting until your next upkeep relegates this ability to removal duty, which it does quite poorly compared to everything else WB has to offer.
She's a planeswalker, which is one of the easiest card types to answer in EDH. Like most planeswalkers, unless she's well protected, you're not likely to be getting more than 1.5 activations on average. And if she -is- well protected, I can think of a bunch of other walkers I'd rather have in play.
Her card advantage mode is unimpressive compared to a wealth of alternatives in black. Syphon Mind never comes close to making the cut in any decent deck, and her average case is Syphon Mind with minor upside and a more restrictive mana cost.
If she was of 'average' quality for WB I'd be very concerned about how terrible both of those colors are. She's got two bad modes, and one nearly unplayable one. I'd compare her to a bottom-tier charm or a command but at least those are instants. She is really, really bad.
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