This was inspired by the RCOTD thread, where a common theme with cards that seem useless is to come up with ways they could be part of a combo. It got me thinking (inspired in part by Turbo Great Wall), that in a lot of these situations, the random card that you're suggesting using as a combo piece could be switched out for a different, better, card and the combo would still function. What we really want is a combo where ONLY our chosen card will do. So the basic game is to come up with a boardstate/hand where playing our chosen card will allow us to go infinite, or at least win the game (assume three opponents each on 40 life and with reasonably full libraries), but simply no other card will do. The boardstate should be one that you could create playing solitaire, not one that depends on your opponents having played certain cards or taken certain optional actions (forced actions are fine!). The combo can require that the key card already be in play, that it be in hand, that it be in the graveyard, the library, exile, or the command zone. The vital component simply being that no other card would do.
The game starts with someone suggesting a card and everyone else trying to suggest combos for it. Once one person has suggested such a combo, it becomes the job of everyone else to try and disprove their combo by finding another card that could be used in place of the key card. For the sake of avoiding some simple tricks that may make every card have the same combo, we're going to assume that, while cards like Cursed Scroll and Adaptive Automaton can be part of the combo, the person looking to disprove it is allowed to change the card or type named in order to make the combo work with a different card.
For clarity, the following will all be considered valid combos:
CLASS 1 COMBO - Does infinite damage (or causes infinite life loss) immediately to 3 opponents; or exiles the libraries of 3 opponents immediately AND causes them all to draw a card; or wins immediately via an alternate win condition; or takes infinite turns beginning immediately
CLASS 2 COMBO - Does very large but non-infinite damage immediately, sufficient to kill 3 opponents at 40 life each
CLASS 3 COMBO - Creates infinite mana immediately (no need to include a mana outlet, there are enough options that it can be taken as given)
CLASS 4 COMBO - Creates an infinite number of non-hasty tokens that are able to attack next turn and have at least 1 power; or exiles the libraries of 3 opponents but doesn't cause them to immediately draw a card; or causes you to win via any other means on or before your next turn if not disrupted
CLASS 5 COMBO (debatable) - Infinitely mills all opponents (I'm not sure this should count given the prevalence of Eldrazi titans and similar)
A proposed combo may be of any of the above classes. For a refutation to count, however, it must be of the same or higher class as the combo it is refuting. The refuting card must also not require a greater total up-front mana investment than the card it is replacing, nor may it require expanding the colour identity of the proposed combo. The refuting combo may also remove any number of cards from the combo it is refuting (for example a Class 4 combo that uses Earthcraft and Night of Souls' Betrayal can still be refuted by Squirrel Nest).
Play continues until a combo is found or consensus is reached that no such combo exists. When a combo is found and not refuted after a reasonable amount of time, the person who found the combo gets to suggest the next card. If the consensus is that no combo can be found, the person who suggested the card gets to suggest another (easier) card.
EDH Pantheon UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare WBG Karador, the Bridge Between WU Grand Warden Augustin IV RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening BG Nath Addict UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame B Kokusho, the Mourning Star U Memnarch is All
Ah, but can you not substitute Spawnsire of Ulamog for Jungle Patrol in this combo (and then not even need Mycosynth Lattice or Intruder Alarm, really)?
EDIT: Of course Spawnsire costs a ton more, so you can easily specify that you have Jungle Patrol in hand (rather than play), five lands, and Concordant Crossroads in play and now Jungle Patrol works but subbing in Spawnsire wouldn't.
As a general principle I realize now that it is fair to say that a card that costs more mana shouldn't count as a valid substitute UNLESS the rest of the combo is already providing the mana necessary to cast it. Also, I think that substitutes that require expanding the colour identity of the existing combo are iffy candidates at best.
Intruder Alarm + Zhur-taa Druid? Each time you activate, it produces a token which untaps the Patrol and the Druid. Sac + tap the druid to make GR, and the Druid deals each opponent 1.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Intruder Alarm + Zhur-taa Druid? Each time you activate, it produces a token which untaps the Patrol and the Druid. Sac + tap the druid to make GR, and the Druid deals each opponent 1.
You could sub in Imperious Perfect for Jungle Patrol here I think and get the same combo for less mana.
Intruder Alarm, Bloom Tender, Furnace Celebration. Tap Bloom Tender for GRU, activate for a Wood token untapping both, sac the Wood token for R and trigger Furnace Celebration, dealing 2 damage to the opponent and ending up back where you started.
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now make a wood token, get 2 wood tokens and the patrol untaps. then sac a wood token and filter the mana through the thicket so u now have GR and a wood token. then use GR to activate patrol again, untapping it and the thicket. in this way you can make infinite wood tokens. then tap a swamp and cast soul burn.
i think this combo only works with jungle patrol because it requires the token to sac for mana and it requires the mana to be red. plus cool points for casting animate land
I feel like there is probably something else in RG that can go off for less than six mana (four for the jungle patrol, two for the first activation) if you have both Doubling Season and Parallel Lives out, but we need to find it before we can move on to refuting Elfric's combo.
EDIT: Saproling Burst with Doubling Season and Parallel Lives nets you 56 saprolings, for 112 damage from Purphoros, just 8 shy of enough to kill 3 full-life opponents. So close.
is my understanding of the combo correct this way?:
you tap1G to create 3 wood tokens which trigger purph and then you sac them from RRR to pay the untap with the mantle. now this doesnt give the mana to create an infinite loop. ?!?!
You would get four tokens, doubling season and parallel live multiply. But that still just leaves you with R, not enough to activate Jungle Patrol again. You're right.
We're looking for a card that is CMC 6 or less (4 to play Jungle Patrol, 2 to activate the ability) and results in a colour identity of four or fewer colours when including the four cards above. Note that Elfric's combo also require one floating B in order to activate Jarad at the end, so if you don't need that B your subsitute can be 7 cmc.
Warstorm Surge wouldn't work without an anthem. The token is 0/1.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Yep, I expanded my comment when I realized that. For the record, I think that people suggesting fixes for previously refuted or non-functional combos counts as a new combo. So, for example, if your Jarad combo is refuted, followed by Wildfire's and aslidsiksoraksi's combos both being refuted, we would turn to considering your combo of adding Earthcraft to Mistborn's suggestion.
EDIT: Although, actually, I think I refute that in advance because if you have Earthcraft and Purphoros, then Squirrel Nest completes the combo without needing the other cards.
EDIT: Saproling Burst with Doubling Season and Parallel Lives nets you 56 saprolings, for 112 damage from Purphoros, just 8 shy of enough to kill 3 full-life opponents. So close.
Just as a point of order, did you forget Purphoros pops "each opponent" and not just one targeted? 56 Purph triggers kills a standard pod of opponents just shy of three times over.
Refuting this would entail finding a card that can slot into this exact combo in place of Jungle Patrol without requiring more mana or more colours, thus showing that Jungle Patrol is not a uniquely necessary component of this combo. In this case, Jungle Patrol requires 4 mana to cast and two to activate (and then one B at the end to go off), so six or seven cmc is the magic number, depending on whether your substitute needs that B (you get one mana from the mystic, but that's moot since any substitute card will also have access to that mana) and it adds one colour to the identity of the rest of the combo (adds R to UBG). So a valid replacement can be UBG plus up to one other colour.
EDIT: Saproling Burst with Doubling Season and Parallel Lives nets you 56 saprolings, for 112 damage from Purphoros, just 8 shy of enough to kill 3 full-life opponents. So close.
Just as a point of order, did you forget Purphoros pops "each opponent" and not just one targeted? 56 Purph triggers kills a standard pod of opponents just shy of three times over.
Jeez, I got ninja'd hard up there. Just wanted to say that, if you're relying on the second ability for a combo, that you need to be careful of Thermopod and Phyrexian Altar.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
I just remembered that Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker only costs 5 cmc and goes infinite with Intruder Alarm and any one other non-legendary creature. So Intruder Alarm based combos are probably out unless Jungle Patrol is the only creature. This same argument refutes both Wildfire's and aslidsiksoraksi's combos, so we're back at square one unless I'm mistaken.
EDIT: Okay, I have a suggestion of my own, and it's only two colours:
I just remembered that Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker only costs 5 cmc and goes infinite with Intruder Alarm and any one other non-legendary creature. So Intruder Alarm based combos are probably out unless Jungle Patrol is the only creature. This same argument refutes both Wildfire's and aslidsiksoraksi's combos, so we're back at square one unless I'm mistaken.
EDIT: Okay, I have a suggestion of my own, and it's only two colours:
i think if you put in kiki, you'll get infinite untaps, and hence infinite uses of fire-lit thicket in my combo. but without a prior red source (over and above the 3 red you spend on kiki) you'll only get infinite colorless from that land, so you couldn't win with soul burn?
also Furnace Celebration in Wildfire's combo means it depends on sacrificing permanents, and so you need the fact that you're sacrificing the wood tokens - kiki can't do that without help? EDIT: nevermind, you can do it all at the end step, though you'll have to go off in the end step which is kinda weird but doable enough.
just to clarify, to refute a combo we have to find a card that fits the same cmc? or even same casting cost? cuz if that rule is so, then refuting gets really hard, but if it isn't then it might get too easy...
Ah! I was thinking that Kiki-Jiki would let us create infinite copies of Fire-Lit Thicket, but in fact it doesn't! Kiki-Jiki can copy Fire-Lit Thicket, but the resulting token won't be a creature, so Intruder Alarm won't trigger. Your combo remains unrefuted.
To be clear, refuting a combo requires finding a card that you can use instead of Jungle Patrol, without requiring more mana or more colours. So, in your Animate Land / Intruder Alarm / Fire-Lit Thicket / Parallel Lives / Soul Burn combo, using Jungle Patrol as the final piece requires that you have access to 7 mana (4 to cast Jungle Patrol, 2 to make the first Wood Token, and a floating B for Soul Burn) and 4 colours in your commander identity. Refuting it would require finding another card that could slot in there in Jungle Patrol's place and still go off without needing more than seven mana up and without spreading into five colours. For the sake of the game, the challenger is free to posit that the 7 mana you have available at the start is of whatever colour they need.
also Furnace Celebration in Wildfire's combo means it depends on sacrificing permanents, and so you need the fact that you're sacrificing the wood tokens - kiki can't do that without help?
Right, but with Kiki-Jiki and Intruder alarm, you can instead just make infinite hasty Bloom Tenders and swing for the win, ignoring Furnace Celebration.
ok yes thank you that makes sense. just to nitpick then - since jungle patrol can't be used the turn it comes in, there might be complications where you in fact only need 2 mana to start the combo (3 if you want black for soul burn), or maybe 4 on one turn then 2 on the next... but i get the spirit of the thing
can't think of anything to refute your combo myself...
Yeah, haste makes it a bit tricky if we're actually pretending Jungle Patrol is in our hand rather than on the battlefield, but the spirit is that a replacement that requires a larger mana investment overall doesn't count as being an equivalent combo (or else every card could be replaced with Goblin Cannon).
If anyone else wants to try to formalize the rules in a better way that captures the spirit of the challenge (or for that matter suggest modifications to the rules), go for it and I'll update the original post.
hey just realized you have to kill 3 players with your combo, and mine only kills one player with a giant soul burn (unless you add fork and reverberate or something). EDIT: haha i guess i wasn't the only one who noticed
Yep, we're on to mine (unless someone finds a flaw in one of the earlier refutations). And I desperately want someone to refute it so I don't win round one of my own game.
I think that's a good idea. And I think we've gone long enough to consider this combo unrefuted. I'm going to open the next card to the floor. First person to post a card starts the next round.
Interesting. I expect that the first working combo might be the winner, since any replacement card would have to be CMC 0 (or otherwise playable with mana the combo provides naturally).
I've got an idea, but it's not fully formed yet. I suspect that the best combo might use Saffi Eriksdotter as its general.
play heat simmer on tarox moving the original to the command zone.
Put tarox in hand and discard him to the copy in play as many times as possible (by using command beacon and returning beacon with crucible). Play rupture. This does 64 damage so prevent it with bone mask
The game starts with someone suggesting a card and everyone else trying to suggest combos for it. Once one person has suggested such a combo, it becomes the job of everyone else to try and disprove their combo by finding another card that could be used in place of the key card. For the sake of avoiding some simple tricks that may make every card have the same combo, we're going to assume that, while cards like Cursed Scroll and Adaptive Automaton can be part of the combo, the person looking to disprove it is allowed to change the card or type named in order to make the combo work with a different card.
For clarity, the following will all be considered valid combos:
CLASS 1 COMBO - Does infinite damage (or causes infinite life loss) immediately to 3 opponents; or exiles the libraries of 3 opponents immediately AND causes them all to draw a card; or wins immediately via an alternate win condition; or takes infinite turns beginning immediately
CLASS 2 COMBO - Does very large but non-infinite damage immediately, sufficient to kill 3 opponents at 40 life each
CLASS 3 COMBO - Creates infinite mana immediately (no need to include a mana outlet, there are enough options that it can be taken as given)
CLASS 4 COMBO - Creates an infinite number of non-hasty tokens that are able to attack next turn and have at least 1 power; or exiles the libraries of 3 opponents but doesn't cause them to immediately draw a card; or causes you to win via any other means on or before your next turn if not disrupted
CLASS 5 COMBO (debatable) - Infinitely mills all opponents (I'm not sure this should count given the prevalence of Eldrazi titans and similar)
A proposed combo may be of any of the above classes. For a refutation to count, however, it must be of the same or higher class as the combo it is refuting. The refuting card must also not require a greater total up-front mana investment than the card it is replacing, nor may it require expanding the colour identity of the proposed combo. The refuting combo may also remove any number of cards from the combo it is refuting (for example a Class 4 combo that uses Earthcraft and Night of Souls' Betrayal can still be refuted by Squirrel Nest).
Play continues until a combo is found or consensus is reached that no such combo exists. When a combo is found and not refuted after a reasonable amount of time, the person who found the combo gets to suggest the next card. If the consensus is that no combo can be found, the person who suggested the card gets to suggest another (easier) card.
Combos so far:
Jungle Patrol with: Thornbite Staff, Heartstone, Mycosynth Lattice, and Purphoros, God of the Forge
Command Beacon with: Tarox Bladewing as commander, Minion Reflector, Crucible of Worlds, Ghirapur Orrery, Storm Cauldron and Chandra's Ignition
Seismic Assault with: Illusory Ambusher, Withstand Death, Abundance, Feldon's Cane, and Furnace of Rath
Shard Phoenix with Earthcraft, Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, Vedalken Orrery, Heroic Intervention, Rocket Launcher, Ruby Medallion, Thornscape Familiar, Nightscape Familiar
Tamanoa with Searing Meditation, Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, Treasonous Ogre, Blessed Wine (or any other lifegain spell)
Multani's Presence with Leveler, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Blasting Station, Lullmage Mentor, Chalice of the Void (set to 0), Summoner's Pact
Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons with Blowfly Infestation, Parallel Lives, Khalni Garden, and Fume Spitter
Monastery Mentor with Cloudstone Curio, Authority of the Consuls, Akroma's Memorial, and Land Tax (in hand)
Wirewood Symbiote with Xenograft, Llanowar Elves, Impact Tremors
Today's Card: Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
UBRG Yidris, Eye of the Storm
WBR Kaalia, Herald of Apocalypse
UBG Damia, Sage of Nightmare
WBG Karador, the Bridge Between
WU Grand Warden Augustin IV
RG Omnath, Locus of Awakening
BG Nath Addict
UR Niv Mizzet, Brain Aflame
B Kokusho, the Mourning Star
U Memnarch is All
EDIT: Of course Spawnsire costs a ton more, so you can easily specify that you have Jungle Patrol in hand (rather than play), five lands, and Concordant Crossroads in play and now Jungle Patrol works but subbing in Spawnsire wouldn't.
As a general principle I realize now that it is fair to say that a card that costs more mana shouldn't count as a valid substitute UNLESS the rest of the combo is already providing the mana necessary to cast it. Also, I think that substitutes that require expanding the colour identity of the existing combo are iffy candidates at best.
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Good try! But unfortunately many things go infinite with Purphoros, God of the Forge and Intruder Alarm, such as Bloodline Keeper without even worrying about Training Grounds and Mycosynth Lattice.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
You could sub in Imperious Perfect for Jungle Patrol here I think and get the same combo for less mana.
Intruder Alarm, Bloom Tender, Furnace Celebration. Tap Bloom Tender for GRU, activate for a Wood token untapping both, sac the Wood token for R and trigger Furnace Celebration, dealing 2 damage to the opponent and ending up back where you started.
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first animate land targeting fire-lit thicket
then intruder alarm and doubling season or parallel lives
now make a wood token, get 2 wood tokens and the patrol untaps. then sac a wood token and filter the mana through the thicket so u now have GR and a wood token. then use GR to activate patrol again, untapping it and the thicket. in this way you can make infinite wood tokens. then tap a swamp and cast soul burn.
i think this combo only works with jungle patrol because it requires the token to sac for mana and it requires the mana to be red. plus cool points for casting animate land
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
I feel like there is probably something else in RG that can go off for less than six mana (four for the jungle patrol, two for the first activation) if you have both Doubling Season and Parallel Lives out, but we need to find it before we can move on to refuting Elfric's combo.
EDIT: Saproling Burst with Doubling Season and Parallel Lives nets you 56 saprolings, for 112 damage from Purphoros, just 8 shy of enough to kill 3 full-life opponents. So close.
You would get four tokens, doubling season and parallel live multiply. But that still just leaves you with R, not enough to activate Jungle Patrol again. You're right.
Okay, we're now looking to refute elfric's combo:
We're looking for a card that is CMC 6 or less (4 to play Jungle Patrol, 2 to activate the ability) and results in a colour identity of four or fewer colours when including the four cards above. Note that Elfric's combo also require one floating B in order to activate Jarad at the end, so if you don't need that B your subsitute can be 7 cmc.
Warstorm Surge wouldn't work without an anthem. The token is 0/1.
On phasing:
Yep, I expanded my comment when I realized that. For the record, I think that people suggesting fixes for previously refuted or non-functional combos counts as a new combo. So, for example, if your Jarad combo is refuted, followed by Wildfire's and aslidsiksoraksi's combos both being refuted, we would turn to considering your combo of adding Earthcraft to Mistborn's suggestion.
EDIT: Although, actually, I think I refute that in advance because if you have Earthcraft and Purphoros, then Squirrel Nest completes the combo without needing the other cards.
Just as a point of order, did you forget Purphoros pops "each opponent" and not just one targeted? 56 Purph triggers kills a standard pod of opponents just shy of three times over.
Most Used (of many dozens) EDH Decks:
Brago, King Eternal - Stax
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - Aggro Combo
Wort, the Raidmother - Spellslinger Swarm Control
Animar, Soul of Elements - Tempo Combo
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Spellslinger
Exodia the Forbidden One:
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Combowins.dec
intruder alarm, Mortician Beetle, elvish mystic, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, Jungle Patrol
Refuting this would entail finding a card that can slot into this exact combo in place of Jungle Patrol without requiring more mana or more colours, thus showing that Jungle Patrol is not a uniquely necessary component of this combo. In this case, Jungle Patrol requires 4 mana to cast and two to activate (and then one B at the end to go off), so six or seven cmc is the magic number, depending on whether your substitute needs that B (you get one mana from the mystic, but that's moot since any substitute card will also have access to that mana) and it adds one colour to the identity of the rest of the combo (adds R to UBG). So a valid replacement can be UBG plus up to one other colour.
I did! So Saproling Burst would count as refuting that combo, but it's moot since the combo didn't work anyways. But that does mean that no combo involving Doubling Season, Parallel Lives, and Purphoros, God of the Forge is going to be valid, since Saproling Burst would refute it.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
EDIT: Okay, I have a suggestion of my own, and it's only two colours:
Thornbite Staff, Heartstone, Mycosynth Lattice, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Jungle Patrol
i think if you put in kiki, you'll get infinite untaps, and hence infinite uses of fire-lit thicket in my combo. but without a prior red source (over and above the 3 red you spend on kiki) you'll only get infinite colorless from that land, so you couldn't win with soul burn?
also Furnace Celebration in Wildfire's combo means it depends on sacrificing permanents, and so you need the fact that you're sacrificing the wood tokens - kiki can't do that without help? EDIT: nevermind, you can do it all at the end step, though you'll have to go off in the end step which is kinda weird but doable enough.
just to clarify, to refute a combo we have to find a card that fits the same cmc? or even same casting cost? cuz if that rule is so, then refuting gets really hard, but if it isn't then it might get too easy...
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
To be clear, refuting a combo requires finding a card that you can use instead of Jungle Patrol, without requiring more mana or more colours. So, in your Animate Land / Intruder Alarm / Fire-Lit Thicket / Parallel Lives / Soul Burn combo, using Jungle Patrol as the final piece requires that you have access to 7 mana (4 to cast Jungle Patrol, 2 to make the first Wood Token, and a floating B for Soul Burn) and 4 colours in your commander identity. Refuting it would require finding another card that could slot in there in Jungle Patrol's place and still go off without needing more than seven mana up and without spreading into five colours. For the sake of the game, the challenger is free to posit that the 7 mana you have available at the start is of whatever colour they need.
Does that make sense?
EDIT: Also...
Right, but with Kiki-Jiki and Intruder alarm, you can instead just make infinite hasty Bloom Tenders and swing for the win, ignoring Furnace Celebration.
can't think of anything to refute your combo myself...
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
If anyone else wants to try to formalize the rules in a better way that captures the spirit of the challenge (or for that matter suggest modifications to the rules), go for it and I'll update the original post.
REMINDER: Current unrefuted combo is Animate Land / Intruder Alarm / Fire-Lit Thicket / Parallel Lives / Soul Burn by aslidsiksoraksi
EDIT: Uh-Oh, Soul Burn only kills one player....
so i guess we're on to yours? Thornbite Staff, Heartstone, Mycosynth Lattice, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Jungle Patrol?
and i'd like to amend mine with those additions and re-enter, lol
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
I've got an idea, but it's not fully formed yet. I suspect that the best combo might use Saffi Eriksdotter as its general.
Hand: a heat shimmer and rupture
In play: crucible of worlds, Ghirapur Orrery, a Storm Cauldron and bone mask and command beacon.
play heat simmer on tarox moving the original to the command zone.
Put tarox in hand and discard him to the copy in play as many times as possible (by using command beacon and returning beacon with crucible). Play rupture. This does 64 damage so prevent it with bone mask