Hello, I'd like to learn the techniques employed by competitive decks to improve my own. I'm currently working on a GWU / Bant Derevi, Empyrial Tactician Bird tribal deck, so examples in those colors would be most helpful.
What are the common methods for using and abusing graveyard recursion?
Should I expect to reuse a card in my graveyard once per game, once per turn, or as often as I want?
How can graveyard reuse be done efficiently, applying to large portions of the deck instead of requiring multiple specific cards?
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
For example, Karmic Guide is a Commander staple but the obscure Breath of Life does the same thing for one less mana. I assume Karmic Guide is better because it's easier to reuse. So, how do I reliably reuse it?
Reusing Karmic Guide must require a second card, so it seems unlikely that I'll have that second card in my hand or in play. To increase my chances of having that special card, will I need a bunch of cards which reuse Karmic Guide? Sounds like I'm working pretty hard to reuse the reuser.
Fundamentally, graveyard recursion needs cards in the graveyard. So now I need sacrifice outlets, mills, and/or discards. Phyrexian Altar seems great, but it's just another card I need to assemble this combo.
What cards are so good that they are worth all this trouble to reuse? Creatures with ETB effects seem like the goal, but do we bother reusing non-creatures?
It seems way easier to blink instead of recur from the graveyard. Adding a single Deadeye Navigator seems way easier than adding a whole package of recursion and sac outlet cards.
So what am I missing? How is graveyard recursion stronger and more reliable than a single Deadeye Navigator?
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
Deadeye Navigator uses mana. Thus, you have a limit to the number of activations, unless you get one of 3 creatures in the game that let you make infinite mana. It's effective, but predictable. People have a lot of opportunities to respond to disrupt the combo.
Deadeye needs to resolve. Both creatures need to be in play.
It's easy to put a bunch of creatures in your graveyard and resolve one single creature to go infinite. If your creature is countered, you can recur with another piece (although this is why these decks play Karador, Ghost Chieftain as a general - Karador gives redundancy).
Sac outlets are redundant, as long as they are free. In Bant, you are looking at Phyrexian Altar,Ashnod's Altar, Greater Good, Altar of Dementia ... there are other ones like Martyr's Cause, but then you aren't making mana or drawing cards or moving towards a win.
These combos are interesting with Derevi, since you can actually make infinite mana through Derevi.
My favourite way to win with Karador is Sun Titan, Satyr Wayfinder, Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle. Sac wayfinder, sac titan, return titan using the 4 mana, titan targets wayfinder. Mill 4, repeat. Just mill myself until I hit a win condition, which I return with Sun Titan.
The graveyard combo is very consistent and very resilient to removal and countermagic. It only struggles with graveyard hate.
Green has the best graveyard to hand spells in Praetor's Counsel, Seasons Past, Creeping Renaissance. Obviously these can be abused if you setup your deck to have a large graveyard through self mill type strategies. For example Oath of Druids and Hermit Druid can be used to make large graveyard on purpose.
If you're looking just to have a backup powerful spell to get value, then I rate Seasons Past as the best. Praetor's Counsel used to be the go to, but costing 2 less mana and being able to potentially cast it again makes Season's Past better in my experience.
What cards are so good that they are worth all this trouble to reuse? Creatures with ETB effects seem like the goal, but do we bother reusing non-creatures?
It seems way easier to blink instead of recur from the graveyard. Adding a single Deadeye Navigator seems way easier than adding a whole package of recursion and sac outlet cards.
So what am I missing? How is graveyard recursion stronger and more reliable than a single Deadeye Navigator?
I think this really depends on who you're running as general, how dependent you are on said general, and what creatures or permanents you want to recur for value. All we've really given you here is the fundamental structure of recursion - it's up to you what you want to recur. If it's solely for ETB effects, blink may well be easier - Deadeye Navigator, Panharmonicon, Conjurer's Closet, Strionic Resonator, Restoration Angel and Roon of the hidden realm will help achieve that.
If you're looking to turn sideways and maintain a board presence recursion may be more helpful. So I guess it's up to you and the deck you want to build.
Thanks for all the info. My decks are all built around token spam, so I never considered reusing creatures that die when I can just make more. Now I see the bonus of recursion giving me even one extra ETB trigger for Cathars' Crusade or Champion of Lambholt.
Under average circumstances, should I expect to use a recursion trick only once per game? I'm a pessimist and don't expect to have all the pieces for an infinite recursion combo all at once. Would it be better to run permanents with reusable recursion like Emeria Shepherd, Genesis, Order of Whiteclay, Reya Dawnbringer, or Sword of Light and Shadow?
For years, I've know that Eternal Witness is a staple. Is it just another single-use Regrowth or are there more useful ways to use it?
For now, I'll add Reveillark, Karmic Guide, some Alters, and on-theme Seaside Haven to my deck. Thanks for the lesson in recursion.
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
Infinite combos are your best case scenario obviously. Personally I'm happy enough with just synergy short of tutoring for the pieces for infinite. Mostly because I don't like a deck playing out the same way every time, which means I'm less likely to play tutors or build towards infinite.
Under average circumstances, should I expect to use a recursion trick only once per game? I'm a pessimist and don't expect to have all the pieces for an infinite recursion combo all at once. Would it be better to run permanents with reusable recursion like Emeria Shepherd, Genesis, Order of Whiteclay, Reya Dawnbringer, or Sword of Light and Shadow?
Again, it kind of depends. I have several decks in which I can expect it to happen regularly - granted those aren't bant colored, but green and white do have options so it can happen.
Of the examples you gave, Reya is super expensive at 9 mana, and order of whiteclay is pretty conditional; I don't fancy its chances in combat. To my mind, I'd rather use good recursion once than bad recursion multiple times. Recursion to hand is good, especially when it's as cheap as Eternal Witness, but straight to play is generally preferred - unless you need a cast trigger instead of entering play trigger; like with Bruna, the Fading Light. Even then, if there's enough support there for seeing recursion triggers again and again, it does happen. Otherwise it wouldn't be an archetype in EDH.
Part of what makes Eternal Witness so good is that it can get you ANYTHING, and that's reasonably rare. If someone nukes your Gaea's Cradle you can have it back. The other side is that it's easily abused, because a) it's cheap, and b) it's on ETB, so again it can be abused - with both recursion and blink. It looks like an unassuming card, but there is a good reason it's a $5 uncommon.
One more good recursion card - so handy after a sweep or alpha strike - Faith's Reward. Recently reprinted and cheap as chips.
I have a Roon list, fairly typical in that regard as it is primarily blink/value. I don't think anyone missed the Bant recursion staples. Typically, blinking creatures or permanents with ETB value is a great way to control things or of course if you desire, go infinite. If you are strictly going token spammage I think Brago, King Eternal is better than Roon for that style. Using Cathar's Crusade in tandem with token producers like whirler rogue[/card geist honored monk are a great way to make a good sized army. If you want pure value ETB things, I still think Brago is best but there is a lot to be said for Roon (as I have a decent fun Roon list). I do go for the whole Karmic Guide/Reveillark sacrifice through the Atars route or DEN+Peregrine Drake/Venser, shaper savant silliness.
To my mind, I'd rather use good recursion once than bad recursion multiple times.
That answers it. Thanks for all the examples, everyone. I'll continue to think through the scenarios and add recursion cards to my decks.
Yes, the deck I'm asking about is Derevi, Empyrial Tactician bird tribal. I hope to use Order of Whiteclay with Derevi's many tap triggers when my bird tokens damage opponents. Hopefully opponents will ignore Order since it's not a staple... until it recurs my non-token attackers which just died during my attack.
I'm also going to add Sword of Light and Shadow. It is reusable recursion which seems harder to kill because it's not a creature. I'm betting that opposing decks run less removal for artifacts (and enchantments) than they do for creatures.
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
I tried a bant dredge deck with rafiq at the helm. Mostly a spicy brew than completely functional. The GY shenanigans start with SotF, B Pod. Snapcaster, E wit, JVP are all super legit here, they are especially good at buying back your counterspells or removal to keep up your tempo against opponents. Sword of light and shadow is ok, but probably more effective in rafiq than derevi. I think one of the stronger non-infinite combos you can go for is Jin-gitaxias/elesh norn + loyal retainers. You can get it down pretty early with SotF. Bant really thrives off engines, so find ways to abuse those to start
To my mind, I'd rather use good recursion once than bad recursion multiple times.
That answers it. Thanks for all the examples, everyone. I'll continue to think through the scenarios and add recursion cards to my decks.
Yes, the deck I'm asking about is Derevi, Empyrial Tactician bird tribal. I hope to use Order of Whiteclay with Derevi's many tap triggers when my bird tokens damage opponents. Hopefully opponents will ignore Order since it's not a staple... until it recurs my non-token attackers which just died during my attack.
I'm also going to add Sword of Light and Shadow. It is reusable recursion which seems harder to kill because it's not a creature. I'm betting that opposing decks run less removal for artifacts (and enchantments) than they do for creatures.
And every way you have to untap it to recur clones or other ETBs lets you just keep going. It gets kind of gross once graveyards are big enough.
Additionally, if you untap it in response to the activation, you can target the same 3 cards to recur more creatures without having to give back more fuel.
Reveillark and Body Double is a fun little combo. The Body Double mimics Reveillark, and then you sac it to something, say Ashnod's Altar or Blasting Station. Then you get two creatures back, one of which is, wait for it, Body Double! With Blasting Station in particular, a creature just ETB, so, untap Blasting Station and reuse it.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
What are the common methods for using and abusing graveyard recursion?
Should I expect to reuse a card in my graveyard once per game, once per turn, or as often as I want?
How can graveyard reuse be done efficiently, applying to large portions of the deck instead of requiring multiple specific cards?
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
Reusing Karmic Guide must require a second card, so it seems unlikely that I'll have that second card in my hand or in play. To increase my chances of having that special card, will I need a bunch of cards which reuse Karmic Guide? Sounds like I'm working pretty hard to reuse the reuser.
Fundamentally, graveyard recursion needs cards in the graveyard. So now I need sacrifice outlets, mills, and/or discards. Phyrexian Altar seems great, but it's just another card I need to assemble this combo.
What cards are so good that they are worth all this trouble to reuse? Creatures with ETB effects seem like the goal, but do we bother reusing non-creatures?
It seems way easier to blink instead of recur from the graveyard. Adding a single Deadeye Navigator seems way easier than adding a whole package of recursion and sac outlet cards.
So what am I missing? How is graveyard recursion stronger and more reliable than a single Deadeye Navigator?
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
Reveillark and/or Karmic Guide and/or Saffi Eriksdotter + sac outlet goes infinite, without using mana.
Sun Titan and Renegade Rallier also combo with Saffi.
Deadeye needs to resolve. Both creatures need to be in play.
It's easy to put a bunch of creatures in your graveyard and resolve one single creature to go infinite. If your creature is countered, you can recur with another piece (although this is why these decks play Karador, Ghost Chieftain as a general - Karador gives redundancy).
Sac outlets are redundant, as long as they are free. In Bant, you are looking at Phyrexian Altar,Ashnod's Altar, Greater Good, Altar of Dementia ... there are other ones like Martyr's Cause, but then you aren't making mana or drawing cards or moving towards a win.
In Bant, I would suggest using Martyr's Bond as a pseudo win con (Academy rector can get this).
Acidic Slime fits in with the Reveillark combo to knock opponents out of the game.
Venser, Shaper Savant too.
These combos are interesting with Derevi, since you can actually make infinite mana through Derevi.
My favourite way to win with Karador is Sun Titan, Satyr Wayfinder, Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle. Sac wayfinder, sac titan, return titan using the 4 mana, titan targets wayfinder. Mill 4, repeat. Just mill myself until I hit a win condition, which I return with Sun Titan.
The graveyard combo is very consistent and very resilient to removal and countermagic. It only struggles with graveyard hate.
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsOff the beaten track, slightly, is Adarkar Valkyrie. Note that this can pull from opponents' 'yards too.
You do have options with persist too - Woodfall Primus, Cauldron of Souls, Glen Elendra Archmage, Heartmender, Twilight Shepherd - and if you can keep Melira, sylvok outcast on the battlefield they will keep coming back for more value every time they die.
Splendid Reclamation is a card that can be abused.
If you're looking just to have a backup powerful spell to get value, then I rate Seasons Past as the best. Praetor's Counsel used to be the go to, but costing 2 less mana and being able to potentially cast it again makes Season's Past better in my experience.
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Greenwarden of Murasa is a second (and possibly third if you want to exile it) Eternal witness.
I see it as stronger because there are more cards that enable recursion than there are effects that are as strong as deadeye. Green has some crazy good cards that enable recursion too: survival of the fittest, evolutionary leap and greater good all give you added value. Jalira, master polymorphist is value too, albeit unable to flip legendaries. White doesn't have a lot of sac, but the aforementioned phyrexian altar, ashnod's altar and altar of dementia are all good.
Things that are good to recur - Craterhoof Behemoth, Torrential Gearhulk, Venser, Shaper Savant, Scourge of Fleets, Angel of the Dire Hour - it all depends what you're building - you're recurring for value, but it's up to you what value means to you and what your win conditions might be.
I think this really depends on who you're running as general, how dependent you are on said general, and what creatures or permanents you want to recur for value. All we've really given you here is the fundamental structure of recursion - it's up to you what you want to recur. If it's solely for ETB effects, blink may well be easier - Deadeye Navigator, Panharmonicon, Conjurer's Closet, Strionic Resonator, Restoration Angel and Roon of the hidden realm will help achieve that.
If you're looking to turn sideways and maintain a board presence recursion may be more helpful. So I guess it's up to you and the deck you want to build.
Under average circumstances, should I expect to use a recursion trick only once per game? I'm a pessimist and don't expect to have all the pieces for an infinite recursion combo all at once. Would it be better to run permanents with reusable recursion like Emeria Shepherd, Genesis, Order of Whiteclay, Reya Dawnbringer, or Sword of Light and Shadow?
For years, I've know that Eternal Witness is a staple. Is it just another single-use Regrowth or are there more useful ways to use it?
For now, I'll add Reveillark, Karmic Guide, some Alters, and on-theme Seaside Haven to my deck. Thanks for the lesson in recursion.
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
Again, it kind of depends. I have several decks in which I can expect it to happen regularly - granted those aren't bant colored, but green and white do have options so it can happen.
Of the examples you gave, Reya is super expensive at 9 mana, and order of whiteclay is pretty conditional; I don't fancy its chances in combat. To my mind, I'd rather use good recursion once than bad recursion multiple times. Recursion to hand is good, especially when it's as cheap as Eternal Witness, but straight to play is generally preferred - unless you need a cast trigger instead of entering play trigger; like with Bruna, the Fading Light. Even then, if there's enough support there for seeing recursion triggers again and again, it does happen. Otherwise it wouldn't be an archetype in EDH.
Part of what makes Eternal Witness so good is that it can get you ANYTHING, and that's reasonably rare. If someone nukes your Gaea's Cradle you can have it back. The other side is that it's easily abused, because a) it's cheap, and b) it's on ETB, so again it can be abused - with both recursion and blink. It looks like an unassuming card, but there is a good reason it's a $5 uncommon.
One more good recursion card - so handy after a sweep or alpha strike - Faith's Reward. Recently reprinted and cheap as chips.
That answers it. Thanks for all the examples, everyone. I'll continue to think through the scenarios and add recursion cards to my decks.
Yes, the deck I'm asking about is Derevi, Empyrial Tactician bird tribal. I hope to use Order of Whiteclay with Derevi's many tap triggers when my bird tokens damage opponents. Hopefully opponents will ignore Order since it's not a staple... until it recurs my non-token attackers which just died during my attack.
I'm also going to add Sword of Light and Shadow. It is reusable recursion which seems harder to kill because it's not a creature. I'm betting that opposing decks run less removal for artifacts (and enchantments) than they do for creatures.
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
You could go for Nim Deathmantle or Scythe of the Wretched as cheaper alternatives to the sword. I would also consider adding alternative ways to tap your Order of Whiteclay. Springleaf Drum, Inspiring Statuary and Opposition all could pull weight.
Pulsemage Advocate into Diluvian Primordial or Chancellor of the Spires can be brutal, but you also have the ability to get 0-mana Mystic Snake or any myriad of clones at a moment's notice.
And every way you have to untap it to recur clones or other ETBs lets you just keep going. It gets kind of gross once graveyards are big enough.
Additionally, if you untap it in response to the activation, you can target the same 3 cards to recur more creatures without having to give back more fuel.
I think Pulsemage Advocate is actually best in an esper shell where you can hit Diluvian Primordial, Sepulchral Primordial, and Angel of Serenity in response to spells for 0 mana.
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