How many targets do you think Thalia's Lancers should have to be worth considering? I'm toying around with the idea of sliding it into my Selvala, Explorer Returned build which has a sizeable selection of targets (See list below) but also runs some tutors as is - namely Worldly Tutor, Eladamri's Call, Congregration at Dawn, Tooth and Nail and Altar of Bone. When does it become too much?
This is the list of potentional targets:
The whole deck is based on powering out Selvala and then start dropping fat, so getting to the mana cost is never the issue. The question I have in general is would Thalia's Lancers be versatile enough in this build?
And beyond my personal question, this thread can easily be for other people who are wondering if they have enough targets as well, or the kind of targets required for it to shine.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
and I generally find I want one of them to tutor for when I cast it. It's another way to get a finisher (Eldrazi Titan or Emrakul) to my hand, honestly. I can fetch Kambal if I really need to, but toolboxes like this don't have to be all that big to be effective. It's going to be a rare time that you won't have SOMETHING you wanna get with Thalia's. I mean worst comes to worst, it's a way to tutor out Nykthos or Cradle, or a missing meld piece, right?
Do some testing but honestly I think you'll find it tends to fetch useful stuff.
I don't think needs a high number of targets, as long as that number is >1, so long as the targets are good.
Hell, even if your only target was Cradle, I wouldn't fault you for playing it.
With Cradle, Nykthos, and like, Elesh Norn, I'd say you're good to go. The rest is gravy.
I would have to agree with what the others have said. So long as you have 3+ potential targets in your deck, Thalia's Lancers is probably going to be a good card in your deck, because there will almost certainly be something worth fetching. If you have significantly more than that, and at least a few more good ETB-effect creatures, you can add in things like Conjurer's Closet or Panharmonicon for extra value.
This thread now has me thinking I need to skim the mana cost off my Karador deck elsewhere so I can replace Time of Need with the Lancers. The main reason I ran Time of Need in the first place was simply because of its low casting cost and I had Captain Sisay for repeatable tutoring, so I could afford to leave the "higher" (I know 5 mana isn't that high, but...) for other creatures of impact instead, since a 4/4 first striker isn't that impactful even with haste (and once you have haste, Sisay could be tutoring for impact turn after turn anyway).
But then again what's on paper doesn't usually carry over, so I could see the usefulness of just that tutoring being a ETB ability on its own without external help.
This thread now has me thinking I need to skim the mana cost off my Karador deck elsewhere so I can replace Time of Need with the Lancers. The main reason I ran Time of Need in the first place was simply because of its low casting cost and I had Captain Sisay for repeatable tutoring, so I could afford to leave the "higher" (I know 5 mana isn't that high, but...) for other creatures of impact instead, since a 4/4 first striker isn't that impactful even with haste (and once you have haste, Sisay could be tutoring for impact turn after turn anyway).
But then again what's on paper doesn't usually carry over, so I could see the usefulness of just that tutoring being a ETB ability on its own without external help.
I mean, your general can't recur Time of Need, and flicker effects are easier to find than means to untap Captain Sisay. Unless your curve really needs that slot to be a 2 drop to run efficiently, I don't think you'd suffer much if you just swap.
I have it in Jor Kadeen for Tenza, Godo's Maul, Godsend, Spear of Heliod, and Hammer of Purphoros. If you have a few Legendary lands as well that just adds to the pile of things that are worth it. I don't think its an auto-include for most decks but if you have 4 or more targets I think you can easily justify a tutor on a body.
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That is a cool chain. The only part which doesn't apply is the lancers returning to battlefield. Bruna's triggered ability is on cast not entering the battlefield.
That is a cool chain. The only part which doesn't apply is the lancers returning to battlefield. Bruna's triggered ability is on cast not entering the battlefield.
That's disappointing. I guess that's why that standard deck never took off. Boo WotC.
That is a cool chain. The only part which doesn't apply is the lancers returning to battlefield. Bruna's triggered ability is on cast not entering the battlefield.
That's disappointing. I guess that's why that standard deck never took off. Boo WotC.
Alright, that settles it, I'm finding a slot for it. Now just to find a Captain Sisay along the way as well...
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think that list of legendaries probably wants paradox engine to really start going nuts. However, I do agree that thalia's lancers is a very very good tutor.
Speaking of I totally forgot I had a Planar Bridge in there which is, in fact, Legendary. And is a totally fair and balanced card next to Seedborn Muse.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
AT 14 mana to get your first permanent to the battlefield, even with seedborne muse I am not going to complain too much about it being broken. It wouldn't stop me from blowing up the seedborn muse though....
I would play it even if Gaea's Cradle were the only target. If I even had a Cradle, that is. As long as it never blanks, that's ok. And to accomplish that, you'd need no more than to add something like Kor Haven. There are more than enough legendaries in this list considering that the target will be Cradle at least half the time already.
The only thing that concerns me about relying on it is the fact that it telegraphs fairly clearly. That doesn't matter too much in my deck as even if the legendary does end up being countered, I have some resurrection, but I can definitely see instances where the tutor would end up counting for naught. Granted that will seldom be the case searching for the cradle - if you're lucky enough to have one - or other legendary lands.
I think the correct answer is to almost always go for the captain sisay which then finds the paradox engine...ok, maybe that is just one possible line of play...
I think the correct answer is to almost always go for the captain sisay which then finds the paradox engine...ok, maybe that is just one possible line of play...
Yeah except I can count the number of players who'll enjoy a Selvala deck with Paradox Engine on the fingers of my thumb. So no, that's not something I'm gonna be doing
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
This is the list of potentional targets:
The whole deck is based on powering out Selvala and then start dropping fat, so getting to the mana cost is never the issue. The question I have in general is would Thalia's Lancers be versatile enough in this build?
And beyond my personal question, this thread can easily be for other people who are wondering if they have enough targets as well, or the kind of targets required for it to shine.
For reference, the targets I have:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Emrakul, the Promised End
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
and I generally find I want one of them to tutor for when I cast it. It's another way to get a finisher (Eldrazi Titan or Emrakul) to my hand, honestly. I can fetch Kambal if I really need to, but toolboxes like this don't have to be all that big to be effective. It's going to be a rare time that you won't have SOMETHING you wanna get with Thalia's. I mean worst comes to worst, it's a way to tutor out Nykthos or Cradle, or a missing meld piece, right?
Do some testing but honestly I think you'll find it tends to fetch useful stuff.
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Sig Credit: Pegasus Bishop
Hell, even if your only target was Cradle, I wouldn't fault you for playing it.
With Cradle, Nykthos, and like, Elesh Norn, I'd say you're good to go. The rest is gravy.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
But then again what's on paper doesn't usually carry over, so I could see the usefulness of just that tutoring being a ETB ability on its own without external help.
I mean, your general can't recur Time of Need, and flicker effects are easier to find than means to untap Captain Sisay. Unless your curve really needs that slot to be a 2 drop to run efficiently, I don't think you'd suffer much if you just swap.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
It's a super solid card with hatebears like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Gaddock Teeg, and Linvala, Keeper of Silence.
That is a cool chain. The only part which doesn't apply is the lancers returning to battlefield. Bruna's triggered ability is on cast not entering the battlefield.
That's disappointing. I guess that's why that standard deck never took off. Boo WotC.
It's why my bruna deck has no Conjurer's closet or panharmonicon. Still works just fine though.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Yeah except I can count the number of players who'll enjoy a Selvala deck with Paradox Engine on the fingers of my thumb. So no, that's not something I'm gonna be doing
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!