*I'M NOT TRYING TO TRIGGER ANYONE*
This is just a discussion with queries.
Ok, now..
This may sound stupid but are people just trying to win in EDH? Let me explain; I see some many people both in real life and online who are building these expensive cheesey decks that win EDH games around turn 3 or 4, or even play things like Armageddon/Orbs. Heavy, heavy control that basically doesn't allow your opponent to play unless they have answers as they are cast.
Is this fun for some? I suppose some may get enjoyment out of these types of decks, but I think they'll be hard pressed to find a consistent play group.
Now, this is where some people come in and comment things like: "They are cards that are meant to be played.", "Stop crying.", or "If X happens to you, and you didnt play Y, then it's your fault."
Where is the spirit of EDH? It's not a tournament, it's casual. I don't understand the logic behind just playing cheese. I would love to hear from someone who plays things like this, and why they do it.
I'm cutting your post way down because this is really what it boils down to. Some people enjoy playing very cutthroat games of EDH. Optimizing a 100 card singleton deck to consistently win quickly and through a multiplyer game's worth of disruption is a different kind of challenge than doing the same for a 60 card deck, either duel or multiplayer. Slow build ups to battlecruiser boardstates don't appeal to everyone just like trying to combo out through three players worth of disruption doesn't appeal to everyone. If they're enjoying those games and it's a social experience, that's as within the spirit of EDH as a game of smashing 7-drops together. It's only problematic when either of those groups is trying to force their playstyle on a group that sees it differently.
I'm not part of that crowd so we don't play together. They wouldn't necessarily enjoy the kinds of games I'm looking for when I sit down to play EDH and I'm not interested in what they want. The format is big enough that both groups can coexist.
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Lately I have seen too much of the turn 3 and 4 combo win decks. If I wanted to play that fast I'd build a modern deck. I could put a competitive deck together without spending a dime, as I have all the cards, but that isn't why I play. 100 card modern isn't the experience I'm looking for.
Having said that I do have a Zurgo Helmsmasher deck where Zurgo is the only creature and one of the wincons. Since I have to stay alive until I can get him on the field and safe I also play 21 different board wipes, including mass land destruction. I play this deck once a week or so as a challenge to improve my deckbuilding. While it has won on turn 5 (casting Jokulhaups with Zurgo on the field, oponents all scooped) it isn't meant to be a control deck like so many mono-blue decks I see.
A few counterspells and board wipes are fine even in a "play for fun" environment. Building competitive EDH decks however is not something I would like to do.
I constantly find myself reiterating the same point ad nauseam when it comes to these posts. To me, it all can be poignantly delivered in two eloquent words: power level. In your personal play group if decks exist that combo out turns 2-4, Staxx etc and the rest of the playgroup is Dragons.deck, there is a glaring dilemma. The playgroup together must govern and adjudicate what they want to do as a collective playgroup. I have witnessed this multiple times in my own personal experience in EDH. The answer is either the Top Tier decks power down (or they embrace a more casual approach and a different deck altogether), or the players with weaker decks start to maindeck multiple specific hate cards to basically cheese the power deck players, or the pilots of the casual decks power up which is essentially the Great Arms Race of EDH, or, lastly, everyone decides to play casual decks. Now, I understand that this is within a specific playgroup of friends, as this is most likely the best way a democratic decision can actually be made within said group. In a random Game Shop where anything goes, is exactly that, anything goes.
The objective of a game of Commander is to reduce the life totals of other players to zero (or other alternative means). The things you name can be effective at either reaching that objective or curtailing opponents from reaching that objective. It’s not really any more complicated than that.
The complication arises from the idea that players ought to be doing something other than reaching the game’s stated objective. This is complicated because this other thing that players ought to be doing is unstated. And if doing this thing leaves players less able to reach the game objectives, it’s unrealistic to expect players to do that thing in the course of the game. The rules should be changed in that case to produce the kind of play experience the designers intend.
I have a range of decks, from Karador Spirit/Arcane tribal, to a rather fast Edric list lacking only Tropical Island, Cradle and Mana Drain from being about as good as it's possible to be. As for why I enjoy the latter, well, because it's a very interesting challenge to take it up against similarly fast decks. Taking it up against decks which can not only interact with me to stop me winning, but also force me to interact with them lest they win as fast a I can is probably the most exciting Magic can be. It's not that be-all-and-end-all of EDH by any means, playing more relaxed "casual" games is also something I have fun doing, hence the variety of decks, but playing "competitively" against other "competitive decks" is thoroughly enjoyable. Doubly so if said fast decks belong to my friends so I can get bragging rights for when we're down the pub afterwards.
And it's the italicised bit that's important (well, along with "friends" and "pub" - first and foremost EDH is a social game). Playing "competitively" should involve competition - not in the sense of it actually being a contest for prizes, but in the sense of there being other people playing on a similar level to you who can challenge you for the win. Taking a Thraisos ParadoxStorm list up against people who's idea of EDH involves 15 turns and all the fatties they can't play in standard and modern isn't being competitive, it's being a dick (and, frankly, it's rather boring - against decks like that, I might as well be goldfishing if I'm using my fastest decks). Conversely though taking "turn 15 fatties" into a group of people who play highly tuned lists and complaining that they're not playing the game right is every bit as much of a dick move - you're basically telling them that they can't have fun.
The key to a good EDH game is to find people who enjoy similar kinds of game, and to take into account the groups preferences when choosing what decks to play. Sometimes, that might involve making some degree of sacrifices in order to play that game - e.g. if the rest of the group prefers different styles of game to you, it's probably better to lean towards what they want rather than impose your preferences on them, as doing the latter is just likely to piss them off and leave you without a playgroup.
I bet there's plenty of competitive players who once they jumped into EDH they carried over their competitive deckbuilding mindset. I also bet that most of these folks had fairly competitive decks to start with (first few EDH decks) and then make more casual ones as time goes on and they get used to seeing other EDH decks and trying the multiplayer thing. In this context it's not unreasonable to expect competitive builds frequently. Some folks never deconstruct their deck(s) either, I'm one of these people and I still have my very first EDH deck which is still my most competitive build and tbh I use it maybe 3x a year now because it's not my style to win T3 or T4. I keep it on me so I can scale up to the power level of an opposing build if needed. I have also never played Standard or Modern competitively and I still ended up with my first EDH deck being my most competitive build to this day.
There's kind of a convenient cycle that toxic EDH players get to spin through when it comes to stuff like this, and I actually just finished discussing it last night. If they get a quick, easy win then they're all "tch, nothin personnel kid.." but if they get blown out, they ride the high road of "you're such a tryhard!! EDH is meant to just be fun!" and thusly they get to dodge actually learning and developing as a player because they've got a 1-2 combo of "you're the problem here"
Any cards that aren't on the banlist are legal for a reason - if they've got Armageddon or Winter Orb then you should have ample access to counters and removal to keep yourself in the game. Some games you won't draw into an answer and that's fine, but if a trend of losses establishes itself then it can't be blamed on luck, tryhards, cheese cards, RNGesus or the day of the week anymore - it's time to either get better or play tables that are of a similar skill level.
Just as it would be toxic to bring Legacy Miracles down to a learn-to-play night and mop up kids, it's also toxic to take a casual deck and skillset, sit at a table with people who play competitively, and expect them to all slow down so you get to keep up. This guy bought the cards, studied the strats, wrote the list, practiced and earned every bit of the wins he's getting, but he's supposed to, what, keep Orb in his hand and take hits because you don't like losing?
I know it's not a nice opinion but it's, in my opinion, a fair one.
What is sounds like to me, that you need to understand that different people want different things out of the game. Just because EDH started casual doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Some people want to make a deck that they like to play and then refine it. It's that simple. You also have to remember that, eventually, there has to be a winner.
You can't put a definition on fun nor can you put one on the 'spirit of EDH'.
There's kind of a convenient cycle that toxic EDH players get to spin through when it comes to stuff like this, and I actually just finished discussing it last night. If they get a quick, easy win then they're all "tch, nothin personnel kid.." but if they get blown out, they ride the high road of "you're such a tryhard!! EDH is meant to just be fun!" and thusly they get to dodge actually learning and developing as a player because they've got a 1-2 combo of "you're the problem here"
Any cards that aren't on the banlist are legal for a reason - if they've got Armageddon or Winter Orb then you should have ample access to counters and removal to keep yourself in the game. Some games you won't draw into an answer and that's fine, but if a trend of losses establishes itself then it can't be blamed on luck, tryhards, cheese cards, RNGesus or the day of the week anymore - it's time to either get better or play tables that are of a similar skill level.
Just as it would be toxic to bring Legacy Miracles down to a learn-to-play night and mop up kids, it's also toxic to take a casual deck and skillset, sit at a table with people who play competitively, and expect them to all slow down so you get to keep up. This guy bought the cards, studied the strats, wrote the list, practiced and earned every bit of the wins he's getting, but he's supposed to, what, keep Orb in his hand and take hits because you don't like losing?
I know it's not a nice opinion but it's, in my opinion, a fair one.
Equating what cards you like to play with skill is disingenuous and the "anything legal is fair" mindset has never been a universal one. It's possible to have a good understanding of the game, solid skills, and a deep card pool without playing competitively. That's doubly true for a format like EDH, which was created by a group of judges and remains a predominately casual format. Playing competitively is not wrong and neither is not wanting your EDH games to be full of prison elements, regardless of skill level or resources.
As an aside, "bought the cards" has virtually nothing to do with skill. If your group is full of people playing draft chaff and you buy storm, you're probably going to win more. It doesn't magically make you better at the game. Having access to more cards != more skilled.
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Trees for the forest though - my point is, if you don't want to play against certain archetypes that you view as too competitive, don't sit down at those tables and then get upset that that's what they play. That much, hopefully, you agree with.
There's nothing wrong with trying to win games, or enjoying winning them. If that's not your playstyle, more power to you, but you can't be angry at those who enjoying winning. After all, at the end of the day Magic is a game that requires a winner and a loser (Divine Intervention aside), and there will always be a good amount of people who orient their goals and enjoyment around that.
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I use a lot of usernames for some reason, so if you see this person, it's me: Twitch: Artificier10 MTGO and Discord: PollenProphet
Yes, it's very fun. Why else would anyone play it, if they don't find it fun? That being said, it's not fun playing those types of decks against an unprepared table that don't hold a candle to that type of deck.
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UG Arixmethes Combo UGR Wanderer UGB Tasigur Control URB Jeleva Storm RW Gisela Control
There's a huge distinction I haven't seen mentioned here as well: playing at a LGS in a game store setting vs. playing at a buddy's house with friends. Our game store has pods with a $1 entry and you get like $1 per kill. So, there is an entry fee, but not much as far as prize support. SOME people see this as a cheap way to get some 4-player games in. They want to be able to play a more casual format and may not have a consistent playgroup. Meanwhile, SOME people see anything with an entry fee in a shop setting as a competitive environment. So those people bring decks ready to smash. They'll be happy with the wins and just as often happy losing a 3v1 archenemy game or if they happen to end up in a pod with one or more other tuned decks. The friction comes with the mixing of the groups. It's why I stopped playing shop edh.
The group I play with is pretty consistent in playstyle and deck construction. We have some house rules. The guy who played Derevi stax got bored with it pretty quickly when he either locked us all out or got spiked out of the game in 3v1 after 3v1 games. It self corrects, if you have a group of healthy-minded, rational people.
There has been one guy who was shunned from the group after too many butthurts and emotional outbursts. Ironically, he was the one trying to go cutthroat and build combo-heavy decks. He took losses too personally and couldn't adapt to the group's "social contract." So with that said, I would say yes, some people are just hardwired to be ultra-competitive. Depending on the philosophical gap and capabilities of the players, either the player adapts to the group, the group adapts to the players, or the misfit moves on.
Any way you slice it, I don't think you can say any philosophy is wrong and I don't believe in a "spirit of edh." Some people say tomayto and some people say tomahto.
Thank you all for your replies! There was a lot of interesting topics brought up. I'll try to respond in a more blanket statement, since most responses were quite long.
I feel like I didn't give enough information or I came off wrong. I do understand there is a competitive aspect to EDH. Whether that be at a personal group, or your Local Game Store. In those settings I understand, you're there to win. I've played standard for years and I understand wanting to win.
What I'm trying to focus on is the 'at home' EDH.
Also, I misspoke with "in the spirit of EDH". I apologize for that. Again, I'm meaning more of a.. casual EDH setting. While some groups all have competitive decks I would think that the format itself is not inherently competitive; but I suppose the casual or competitive meta is what each group makes it.
So let me rephrase. In a casual setting, non-tournament/non-competitive, why do some players feel the need to play some T3/T4 win decks? Look at my example:
There are 4 players. Everyone breaks out their decks, and begins to set up. A few turns go by and Player 1 decides he's gonna play something [insert turn 4 win combo here]. Player 1 wins. This continues for 2 more games.
Now, let's not think of what will happen after or the fact of a) He probably needs another play group and b) The rest of the group doesnt want to play with him anymore.
I want to try and understand.. Why does that player like that? Just smashing and winning early.
Ive heard it countless times. So many people bragging about how much their deck is hated or how good it is becuase they can win easily. I don't understand why that would bring you joy. Maybe it's just a "you dont need to understand, they just do" type of thing. I would really like to know though. No hate, no salt, I simply just am curious.
The process of deckbuilding and refinement fascinates me. Every phase of it tickles my brain with hits of dopamine, from the selection of cards and mechanics to build around, to researching cards, to the hard decisions of what cards and strategies to cut. It's all a delightful drug.
My decks are my babies, my precious creations into whom I've poured my being. Seeing them perform at their peak gives me pride similar to a parent's.
Take that process away, and the game becomes ... banal, boring, bereft of attraction. I could never just take someone else's list to an EDH night. What's the point? I don't even get any enjoyment out of winning if it's not the kind of win I like.
So why do I run out Niv and Curiosity on turn 3 or Teferi and The Chain Veil on turn 1? Because to do otherwise is to tell my children to hold back, to not achieve. Screw that. They deserve to fly.
Thank you all for your replies! There was a lot of interesting topics brought up. I'll try to respond in a more blanket statement, since most responses were quite long.
I feel like I didn't give enough information or I came off wrong. I do understand there is a competitive aspect to EDH. Whether that be at a personal group, or your Local Game Store. In those settings I understand, you're there to win. I've played standard for years and I understand wanting to win.
What I'm trying to focus on is the 'at home' EDH.
Also, I misspoke with "in the spirit of EDH". I apologize for that. Again, I'm meaning more of a.. casual EDH setting. While some groups all have competitive decks I would think that the format itself is not inherently competitive; but I suppose the casual or competitive meta is what each group makes it.
So let me rephrase. In a casual setting, non-tournament/non-competitive, why do some players feel the need to play some T3/T4 win decks? Look at my example:
There are 4 players. Everyone breaks out their decks, and begins to set up. A few turns go by and Player 1 decides he's gonna play something [insert turn 4 win combo here]. Player 1 wins. This continues for 2 more games.
Now, let's not think of what will happen after or the fact of a) He probably needs another play group and b) The rest of the group doesnt want to play with him anymore.
I want to try and understand.. Why does that player like that? Just smashing and winning early.
Ive heard it countless times. So many people bragging about how much their deck is hated or how good it is becuase they can win easily. I don't understand why that would bring you joy. Maybe it's just a "you dont need to understand, they just do" type of thing. I would really like to know though. No hate, no salt, I simply just am curious.
That sheds a little more light, I believe.
I would wager that, for some it's a feather in the cap. A mark that they constructed a powerful deck (for their group). A reason to puff their chests out.
Another could be that they want to play as many games as possible. I met a guy who believed that games shouldn't last more than five rotations. (I don't believe that at all but, hey, different opinions)
Others, because their joy comes from winning.
Some will do this to prove a point. Trying to get their playgroup to change how they do things via demonstration.
The group I play with is pretty consistent in playstyle and deck construction. We have some house rules. The guy who played Derevi stax got bored with it pretty quickly when he either locked us all out or got spiked out of the game in 3v1 after 3v1 games. It self corrects, if you have a group of healthy-minded, rational people.
This is the way it works in our group. i dont believe in banning things because often the problem can be taken care of within the game. one guy is the super spikey type. but he also understands that if he plays his spikey decks, he is asking for a 3v1. Rather than ban his decks because they make us feel bad, we handle them in the game. the only problem is that occasionally he complains about being teamed up on. but for the most part he gets it.
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Quote from DEADMANSEVEN »
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it put an evasive creature in its deck over a narrow hate card.
Quote from DARCYKUN »
If a card isn't worth your opponent removing, it's not worth putting in your deck.
So whille I am still sort of casual, definately a strong johnny player, I always play to win (some spikiness there). I just stop polishing my deck once it starts winning regularly and I wait for others to catch up before I consider upgrades.
I do know some hardcore Commander spikes they typically build different levels of decks to try and match us but I don't feel they really enjoy those weaker decks they typically don't last long, they take them apart and build a new one. Since it is all about effiency and getting the best out of a deck for spikes. What they typically do for thier weaker decks is take something inherently weak and push it as far as they can.
I have a
"the players with weaker decks start to maindeck multiple specific hate cards to basically cheese the power deck players"
deck and it is glorious it is a deck I like to brag about everyone hating and how I make power players rage quit. It is so fun to one up people like that and I feel the spikes eventually adjust to it, they are just used to wining.
I think the worst type of player is the Timmy-Spike. They like the Big plays, they are doing things just to prove they can and those big things win the game effiently and overwhelmingly.
As a person who loves fast combo... it's just what fits my playstyle. I enjoy proactive, aggressive decks that doesn't turn creature sideways and there's not much else that does that in EDH, consistently. My favorite decks is grixis storm, and I love trying to figure out exactly to combo out each game, how to play around opposing interaction and trying to push the speed of the deck by winning as early as possible. I love the feeling of being able to read opposing players interaction and playing around it, based on what their lines of play was.
That being said, I don't enjoy playing this against a table that can't interact with me. My favorite thing about decks like this (and in magic in general) is playing around interaction, and against a table of U-less precons I'm not going to have fun playing the deck either. I like very interactive games, and high-level commander tends to be more eventful and interactive than casual games, at least in my experience due to everyone running cheap answers. It's way too often it'd happen that I have to make sure people don't just pull some infinite shenanigans or other game-winning threat by myself and wins while getting ganged on for playing blue. I'm that's going to happen I might as well play a deck that can deal with it.
And before someone tells me commander isn't the format for this, it does fit great. I get to play (almost) all the broken cards in magic that I love, in a highly efficient shell that plays out with very high variance.
I'm not fond of lower-level games as much because they tend to be uninteractive goodstuff games where losses often comes from things out of my control, such as other people's misplays which is an extremely frustrating way to lose. Losing to misplays or poor deck construction motivates me to go back and improve my game. Losing to bad variance is part of the game and you just accept it and move on. Some of the casual decks people run I hate playing against, and I find goodstuff to be the most boring form of magic, both to play with or against.
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UG Arixmethes Combo UGR Wanderer UGB Tasigur Control URB Jeleva Storm RW Gisela Control
After commenting on a "Tooth and Nail" post and a "Losing fun vs unfun" (or something) post I came to a conclusion.
There are basically two groups of people playing EDH:
1. The group where people thinks a Serra Angel is the BOMB to play (I am clearly exaggerating, dont take offence)
2. The group where people thinks a Leovold + Timetwister effects and including a Doomsday + Lab Maniac are the BOMBS to play.
I myself is part of group number 2. Which seems to be the least reprensented both in these forums and at my LGS. Which is fine. But I think it is pointless that these two groups tries to convince each other which is the best way to play EDH. Its pointless to say "you are not playing it the way its meant to be played".
To the OP
Find a playgroup that fits your needs/gameplay and ENJOY! What you think is the "spirit of EDH" may be very different from others. Trying to define and/or dictate what the "spirit of EDH" should be for everyone doesnt get any of us anywhere.
Oh and I can explain why I find it funny and satisfying for me to be part of the Armageddon/Orbs group as you call it. I am a spike/johnny player and so is my playgroup. But I dont think that is your agenda here. I think you want to start a discussion on which is the best way to play, and I have already been in those discussions and they are neverending. If you are interessted though, I will describe why I play EDH as a part of what I call group 2.
I am a player who would love to play Serra Angel, because she is the bomb, but do to the mentality of everyone else, I often play stax or combo decks that win very fast in EDH. I have tried to build casual, tribal pirates, OG Elder Dragons like Arcades or Chromium and such. These decks are always met with some U/G version with TNN combos or a Kiki Jiki combo, or some other type vanilla garbage that I've seen over and over again. So, I choose to play to win. If that's LED/Doomsday, so be it. I'll lower my guns when my opponents do.
I am definitely of the 75% mentality. I can and do player lower level decks with really obscure cards and interactions in them because for me, that is fun. However, I also maintain 3 decks for other eventualities: one is a mono green deck that plays like a weird interaction of mono blue control and stax, another is mono red angel (so named because it is a helmed by an angel), and another is a mono blue deck that pretty much removes your ability to interact with it. The first one I'll play at lower power levels. The last two come out only when someone is being a spikey douche at a lower level table and knows it, which most of ours are.
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Before I continue, please..
*I'M NOT TRYING TO TRIGGER ANYONE*
This is just a discussion with queries.
Ok, now..
This may sound stupid but are people just trying to win in EDH? Let me explain; I see some many people both in real life and online who are building these expensive cheesey decks that win EDH games around turn 3 or 4, or even play things like Armageddon/Orbs. Heavy, heavy control that basically doesn't allow your opponent to play unless they have answers as they are cast.
Is this fun for some? I suppose some may get enjoyment out of these types of decks, but I think they'll be hard pressed to find a consistent play group.
Now, this is where some people come in and comment things like: "They are cards that are meant to be played.", "Stop crying.", or "If X happens to you, and you didnt play Y, then it's your fault."
Where is the spirit of EDH? It's not a tournament, it's casual. I don't understand the logic behind just playing cheese. I would love to hear from someone who plays things like this, and why they do it.
I need to understand.
I'm cutting your post way down because this is really what it boils down to. Some people enjoy playing very cutthroat games of EDH. Optimizing a 100 card singleton deck to consistently win quickly and through a multiplyer game's worth of disruption is a different kind of challenge than doing the same for a 60 card deck, either duel or multiplayer. Slow build ups to battlecruiser boardstates don't appeal to everyone just like trying to combo out through three players worth of disruption doesn't appeal to everyone. If they're enjoying those games and it's a social experience, that's as within the spirit of EDH as a game of smashing 7-drops together. It's only problematic when either of those groups is trying to force their playstyle on a group that sees it differently.
I'm not part of that crowd so we don't play together. They wouldn't necessarily enjoy the kinds of games I'm looking for when I sit down to play EDH and I'm not interested in what they want. The format is big enough that both groups can coexist.
Having said that I do have a Zurgo Helmsmasher deck where Zurgo is the only creature and one of the wincons. Since I have to stay alive until I can get him on the field and safe I also play 21 different board wipes, including mass land destruction. I play this deck once a week or so as a challenge to improve my deckbuilding. While it has won on turn 5 (casting Jokulhaups with Zurgo on the field, oponents all scooped) it isn't meant to be a control deck like so many mono-blue decks I see.
A few counterspells and board wipes are fine even in a "play for fun" environment. Building competitive EDH decks however is not something I would like to do.
The complication arises from the idea that players ought to be doing something other than reaching the game’s stated objective. This is complicated because this other thing that players ought to be doing is unstated. And if doing this thing leaves players less able to reach the game objectives, it’s unrealistic to expect players to do that thing in the course of the game. The rules should be changed in that case to produce the kind of play experience the designers intend.
Same argument, different day.
And it's the italicised bit that's important (well, along with "friends" and "pub" - first and foremost EDH is a social game). Playing "competitively" should involve competition - not in the sense of it actually being a contest for prizes, but in the sense of there being other people playing on a similar level to you who can challenge you for the win. Taking a Thraisos ParadoxStorm list up against people who's idea of EDH involves 15 turns and all the fatties they can't play in standard and modern isn't being competitive, it's being a dick (and, frankly, it's rather boring - against decks like that, I might as well be goldfishing if I'm using my fastest decks). Conversely though taking "turn 15 fatties" into a group of people who play highly tuned lists and complaining that they're not playing the game right is every bit as much of a dick move - you're basically telling them that they can't have fun.
The key to a good EDH game is to find people who enjoy similar kinds of game, and to take into account the groups preferences when choosing what decks to play. Sometimes, that might involve making some degree of sacrifices in order to play that game - e.g. if the rest of the group prefers different styles of game to you, it's probably better to lean towards what they want rather than impose your preferences on them, as doing the latter is just likely to piss them off and leave you without a playgroup.
Oh, and why would I play cheese? Because if this doesn't fit the spirit of EDH, something's gone very wrong with the world...
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Any cards that aren't on the banlist are legal for a reason - if they've got Armageddon or Winter Orb then you should have ample access to counters and removal to keep yourself in the game. Some games you won't draw into an answer and that's fine, but if a trend of losses establishes itself then it can't be blamed on luck, tryhards, cheese cards, RNGesus or the day of the week anymore - it's time to either get better or play tables that are of a similar skill level.
Just as it would be toxic to bring Legacy Miracles down to a learn-to-play night and mop up kids, it's also toxic to take a casual deck and skillset, sit at a table with people who play competitively, and expect them to all slow down so you get to keep up. This guy bought the cards, studied the strats, wrote the list, practiced and earned every bit of the wins he's getting, but he's supposed to, what, keep Orb in his hand and take hits because you don't like losing?
I know it's not a nice opinion but it's, in my opinion, a fair one.
I personally prefer beating people with wacky combos or a long, non-lethal calculation.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
You can't put a definition on fun nor can you put one on the 'spirit of EDH'.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
As an aside, "bought the cards" has virtually nothing to do with skill. If your group is full of people playing draft chaff and you buy storm, you're probably going to win more. It doesn't magically make you better at the game. Having access to more cards != more skilled.
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GWUKnightfallGWU
UBRGrixis ShadowUBR
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
The group I play with is pretty consistent in playstyle and deck construction. We have some house rules. The guy who played Derevi stax got bored with it pretty quickly when he either locked us all out or got spiked out of the game in 3v1 after 3v1 games. It self corrects, if you have a group of healthy-minded, rational people.
There has been one guy who was shunned from the group after too many butthurts and emotional outbursts. Ironically, he was the one trying to go cutthroat and build combo-heavy decks. He took losses too personally and couldn't adapt to the group's "social contract." So with that said, I would say yes, some people are just hardwired to be ultra-competitive. Depending on the philosophical gap and capabilities of the players, either the player adapts to the group, the group adapts to the players, or the misfit moves on.
Any way you slice it, I don't think you can say any philosophy is wrong and I don't believe in a "spirit of edh." Some people say tomayto and some people say tomahto.
I feel like I didn't give enough information or I came off wrong. I do understand there is a competitive aspect to EDH. Whether that be at a personal group, or your Local Game Store. In those settings I understand, you're there to win. I've played standard for years and I understand wanting to win.
What I'm trying to focus on is the 'at home' EDH.
Also, I misspoke with "in the spirit of EDH". I apologize for that. Again, I'm meaning more of a.. casual EDH setting. While some groups all have competitive decks I would think that the format itself is not inherently competitive; but I suppose the casual or competitive meta is what each group makes it.
So let me rephrase. In a casual setting, non-tournament/non-competitive, why do some players feel the need to play some T3/T4 win decks? Look at my example:
There are 4 players. Everyone breaks out their decks, and begins to set up. A few turns go by and Player 1 decides he's gonna play something [insert turn 4 win combo here]. Player 1 wins. This continues for 2 more games.
Now, let's not think of what will happen after or the fact of a) He probably needs another play group and b) The rest of the group doesnt want to play with him anymore.
I want to try and understand.. Why does that player like that? Just smashing and winning early.
Ive heard it countless times. So many people bragging about how much their deck is hated or how good it is becuase they can win easily. I don't understand why that would bring you joy. Maybe it's just a "you dont need to understand, they just do" type of thing. I would really like to know though. No hate, no salt, I simply just am curious.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
The process of deckbuilding and refinement fascinates me. Every phase of it tickles my brain with hits of dopamine, from the selection of cards and mechanics to build around, to researching cards, to the hard decisions of what cards and strategies to cut. It's all a delightful drug.
My decks are my babies, my precious creations into whom I've poured my being. Seeing them perform at their peak gives me pride similar to a parent's.
Take that process away, and the game becomes ... banal, boring, bereft of attraction. I could never just take someone else's list to an EDH night. What's the point? I don't even get any enjoyment out of winning if it's not the kind of win I like.
So why do I run out Niv and Curiosity on turn 3 or Teferi and The Chain Veil on turn 1? Because to do otherwise is to tell my children to hold back, to not achieve. Screw that. They deserve to fly.
That sheds a little more light, I believe.
I would wager that, for some it's a feather in the cap. A mark that they constructed a powerful deck (for their group). A reason to puff their chests out.
Another could be that they want to play as many games as possible. I met a guy who believed that games shouldn't last more than five rotations. (I don't believe that at all but, hey, different opinions)
Others, because their joy comes from winning.
Some will do this to prove a point. Trying to get their playgroup to change how they do things via demonstration.
There are a number of reasons why.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
This is the way it works in our group. i dont believe in banning things because often the problem can be taken care of within the game. one guy is the super spikey type. but he also understands that if he plays his spikey decks, he is asking for a 3v1. Rather than ban his decks because they make us feel bad, we handle them in the game. the only problem is that occasionally he complains about being teamed up on. but for the most part he gets it.
I do know some hardcore Commander spikes they typically build different levels of decks to try and match us but I don't feel they really enjoy those weaker decks they typically don't last long, they take them apart and build a new one. Since it is all about effiency and getting the best out of a deck for spikes. What they typically do for thier weaker decks is take something inherently weak and push it as far as they can.
I have a
deck and it is glorious it is a deck I like to brag about everyone hating and how I make power players rage quit. It is so fun to one up people like that and I feel the spikes eventually adjust to it, they are just used to wining.
I think the worst type of player is the Timmy-Spike. They like the Big plays, they are doing things just to prove they can and those big things win the game effiently and overwhelmingly.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
That being said, I don't enjoy playing this against a table that can't interact with me. My favorite thing about decks like this (and in magic in general) is playing around interaction, and against a table of U-less precons I'm not going to have fun playing the deck either. I like very interactive games, and high-level commander tends to be more eventful and interactive than casual games, at least in my experience due to everyone running cheap answers. It's way too often it'd happen that I have to make sure people don't just pull some infinite shenanigans or other game-winning threat by myself and wins while getting ganged on for playing blue. I'm that's going to happen I might as well play a deck that can deal with it.
And before someone tells me commander isn't the format for this, it does fit great. I get to play (almost) all the broken cards in magic that I love, in a highly efficient shell that plays out with very high variance.
I'm not fond of lower-level games as much because they tend to be uninteractive goodstuff games where losses often comes from things out of my control, such as other people's misplays which is an extremely frustrating way to lose. Losing to misplays or poor deck construction motivates me to go back and improve my game. Losing to bad variance is part of the game and you just accept it and move on. Some of the casual decks people run I hate playing against, and I find goodstuff to be the most boring form of magic, both to play with or against.
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
There are basically two groups of people playing EDH:
1. The group where people thinks a Serra Angel is the BOMB to play (I am clearly exaggerating, dont take offence)
2. The group where people thinks a Leovold + Timetwister effects and including a Doomsday + Lab Maniac are the BOMBS to play.
I myself is part of group number 2. Which seems to be the least reprensented both in these forums and at my LGS. Which is fine. But I think it is pointless that these two groups tries to convince each other which is the best way to play EDH. Its pointless to say "you are not playing it the way its meant to be played".
To the OP
Find a playgroup that fits your needs/gameplay and ENJOY! What you think is the "spirit of EDH" may be very different from others. Trying to define and/or dictate what the "spirit of EDH" should be for everyone doesnt get any of us anywhere.
Oh and I can explain why I find it funny and satisfying for me to be part of the Armageddon/Orbs group as you call it. I am a spike/johnny player and so is my playgroup. But I dont think that is your agenda here. I think you want to start a discussion on which is the best way to play, and I have already been in those discussions and they are neverending. If you are interessted though, I will describe why I play EDH as a part of what I call group 2.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!