I wouldn't feel too bad about it. I mean, come on, that requires some serious luck, and generally makes you a hate target.
I assume you mean alpha strike early. Because the last thing we need is combo players whining about aggro players, to go with the combo players whining about control players, midrange players whining about combo and control players, etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I wouldn't feel too bad about it. I mean, come on, that requires some serious luck, and generally makes you a hate target.
I assume you mean alpha strike early. Because the last thing we need is combo players whining about aggro players, to go with the combo players whining about control players, midrange players whining about combo and control players, etc.
I mean... it requires more tutors and fast mana than it does luck Killing one player isn't the problem, it's killing the other 1-4...
I guess that's true to some extent. But I came to play magic, if I get knocked out of the game and have to sit around with nothing to do for 30mins to an hour, yeah I'm going to be a little bitter. If someone else(like alpha-strikes mcgee) gets knocked out then we can play modern or something while we wait for another commander game and then I don't really mind. If I get to play magic I'm happy, if not then booooooo.
And that's fair. So, do you think that the average player would prefer that everyone at the table lose to infinite combo than that players get knocked off one by one by voltron or other alpha-striking type of deck?
Average player? Honestly I think people just want to play magic, so if the game ends and one person wins on the spot.. Time for another game! Like I said if one person gets knocked out super fast then that just feels bad
I mean, personally I'd rather have fewer but longer games than faster but shorter games. Usually means more is happening. If it's half an hour of draw and go that isn't exciting, but I like seeing some degree of swinging with who could win the game.
As far as the topic goes, I would generally say it isn't something I'd like to see consistently at least. Here and there is one thing, but a recurring thing would be annoying.
If it's appropriate, then yes, it's fine. I'll do it to you. If you're playing a Wheel deck and you make me discard my hand twice or you're playing Mishra combo, you're going to die first. Why? Because you're mostly likely to be responsible for making the game un-enjoyable for everyone else. If I can't alpha strike you, I'll lock you down with Yosei, the Morning Star. I'll kill your Leovold while you have 1 Suspend counter left on Wheel of Fate and reanimate him under my control so I keep him and you have no hand until I finish ejecting you from the game. And I won't feel bad about it, because that's the smart play. Alpha strike, like combo or group hug or any other part of the game is a valid strategy and appropriate given the right circumstances. I'm not going to feel guilty about it, because if you received that alpha strike, you probably did something or are playing in a way that you stuck your neck out and asked for the guillotine. I'm not an ********, but I'm also not going to pull any punches from players that are asking for it.
Is it just me or do I feel like by T3, someone should have answered/have an answer when there's a Sneak Attack on the board?
I mean, unless you have the stone cold nuts hand (and if you do, I don't blame you for wanting to play it to its fullest potential), the blue players allowed Sneak Attack to resolve, it sat there for an entire circle, the green/white players didn't blow it up, the guy untaps and activates it (like this is a big surprise or something) and now no one has a way to bounce/kill the Collossus or at least soak up 2 damage from it? I mean, no good can come of a Sneak Attack sitting on the table, what did you expect the guy to do, put a fuzzy bunny token into play?
Besides that, how common is such an occurance really. You have the stone cold nuts opener of sol ring/sneak attack how often? Is it really that much of a problem?
The only time I can see such a play as "taboo" might be if it's a brand new playgroup who's power level is obviously beneath this, or if it's a large table where the rest of the game can go on for a long time. But I'd expect another player to get eliminated in 15 minutes or so and then I'll play 1v1 or Legacy or something while the rest of the table grinds out. I mean, kinda sucks to be me for 15 mins, but that's ok, that kind of play doesn't happen all the time and it's my fault for tapping out with an StP in my hand knowing there was a Sneak Attack on the table.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Often it seems like most opponents use methods for prohibiting large quantities of attackers (pillow fort stuff like Propaganda) but this style of defense can be subverted with a good voltron package. I like to play with commanders that have voltron potential like Sygg, River Guide, Hakim, Loreweaver (pretty derpy but fun) or Xiahou dun, the One-eyed and have no problems with knocking out someone early if the situation calls.
I have held onto kills many times because it would have made the game less fun and for my playgroup, finding the hours to go to a shop and play is precious. For my playgroup the fun is in playing, not necessarily being the winner in the end. This drives Spike players mad though lol. If Spike wants to win on turn 4 then Spike has to watch everyone else continue playing without him
Is it just me or do I feel like by T3, someone should have answered/have an answer when there's a Sneak Attack on the board?
I mean, unless you have the stone cold nuts hand (and if you do, I don't blame you for wanting to play it to its fullest potential), the blue players allowed Sneak Attack to resolve, it sat there for an entire circle, the green/white players didn't blow it up, the guy untaps and activates it (like this is a big surprise or something) and now no one has a way to bounce/kill the Collossus or at least soak up 2 damage from it? I mean, no good can come of a Sneak Attack sitting on the table, what did you expect the guy to do, put a fuzzy bunny token into play?
Besides that, how common is such an occurance really. You have the stone cold nuts opener of sol ring/sneak attack how often? Is it really that much of a problem?
The only time I can see such a play as "taboo" might be if it's a brand new playgroup who's power level is obviously beneath this, or if it's a large table where the rest of the game can go on for a long time. But I'd expect another player to get eliminated in 15 minutes or so and then I'll play 1v1 or Legacy or something while the rest of the table grinds out. I mean, kinda sucks to be me for 15 mins, but that's ok, that kind of play doesn't happen all the time and it's my fault for tapping out with an StP in my hand knowing there was a Sneak Attack on the table.
It's just you.
There's only so much playable removal that can hit sneak attack or the indestructible threat it brings out, and players are usually trying to develop their own board early on. You have to build your deck expecting people to try and end the game starting from turn 3 or later and that results in MUCH different decks than people would run in more casual edh. Keep in mind that these kinds of strategies continue to work in faster, stronger formats with more consistent decks. Saying "just have the answer" shows a bad understanding of the game.
If you are playing casual decks but have plays like this, I've found it's reasonably common that one player gets knocked out and then the game goes on for an hour. These types of situations are what cause people to stop playing.
Is it just me or do I feel like by T3, someone should have answered/have an answer when there's a Sneak Attack on the board?
I mean, unless you have the stone cold nuts hand (and if you do, I don't blame you for wanting to play it to its fullest potential), the blue players allowed Sneak Attack to resolve, it sat there for an entire circle, the green/white players didn't blow it up, the guy untaps and activates it (like this is a big surprise or something) and now no one has a way to bounce/kill the Collossus or at least soak up 2 damage from it? I mean, no good can come of a Sneak Attack sitting on the table, what did you expect the guy to do, put a fuzzy bunny token into play?
Besides that, how common is such an occurance really. You have the stone cold nuts opener of sol ring/sneak attack how often? Is it really that much of a problem?
The only time I can see such a play as "taboo" might be if it's a brand new playgroup who's power level is obviously beneath this, or if it's a large table where the rest of the game can go on for a long time. But I'd expect another player to get eliminated in 15 minutes or so and then I'll play 1v1 or Legacy or something while the rest of the table grinds out. I mean, kinda sucks to be me for 15 mins, but that's ok, that kind of play doesn't happen all the time and it's my fault for tapping out with an StP in my hand knowing there was a Sneak Attack on the table.
It's just you.
There's only so much playable removal that can hit sneak attack or the indestructible threat it brings out, and players are usually trying to develop their own board early on. You have to build your deck expecting people to try and end the game starting from turn 3 or later and that results in MUCH different decks than people would run in more casual edh. Keep in mind that these kinds of strategies continue to work in faster, stronger formats with more consistent decks. Saying "just have the answer" shows a bad understanding of the game.
If you are playing casual decks but have plays like this, I've found it's reasonably common that one player gets knocked out and then the game goes on for an hour. These types of situations are what cause people to stop playing.
I'm just saying that if the table is big enough to where I'm gonna be out for an hour, that implies at least 4 players, probably more like 5. And if someone's running a deck that's Sneaking out Blightsteel on T3/4, I would argue that implies a fairly competitive scene- casual decks don't Sneak Attack a Blightsteel on T3/4. Having said that, if I were playing a casual player and they had the opportunity to make that play, I imagine it's a pretty infrequent, rare occurrence- you don't get to make a play that splashy every day, I'd kind of half expect them to make it. On the other hand, if your deck is routinely doing stuff like this, I'd argue you're playing competitively and anything goes and this shouldn't take very long to finish anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
So I can't really jive with the people saying "dial back your plays" to make the game more fun. I had a group I played with for several years and one player was CLEARLY better than 90% of the rest of us, myself included. Whether he was playing aggro decks or combo decks or brutal control/stax decks or one colorless deck (back when RoE first came out) that could slam it's general Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, with haste on turn 2-3 with some level of consistency. Rather than saying, "You need to dial your decks back," we started changing ours so that they were able to combat the pressure. He also offered really constructive criticism and card suggestions to make our decks more powerful. By the end of a few months, we stopped having games that were 15 minute blowouts where there was one obvious winner from the beginning and started having games that were going on for an hour or so. It made the entire group "more competitive," but it also created a more fun atmosphere where no one was pulling punches and everyone felt like they were giving their all but still remaining matched. It just feels weird to say, "Don't do this thing you designed your deck to do because everyone else might get upset."
As to the OP's question, no it's really not a faux pas, at least I don't feel it is. It either ends the game pretty solidly for everyone and we'll just shuffle up and play another one, or someone is able to come up with an answer (cheap removal, bounce spells, blockers, etc.) and the game continues from there with a very clear target. Now it sucks if someone gets knocked out from the get go, but in theory the offending party will also be knocked out pretty quickly, and then the two of them can play some quick games in the interim.
I say also find a reliable way to get BSC back into your hand so you can alpha strike again the next turn (or would a second alpha strike be considered a beta strike?)
This is another thread where the definitive answer is "ask your friends" because every playgroup is different, and it's really them and not us you should be OKing your strats with.
That said, you've kind of found the paradox of convenience that toxic EDH players bring to the table. If they blow you out early with a Krenko machine gun or something they're all "nothin personnel kid.." but if you lay the hurt down on them, the tune changes to "hey! EDH is just for fun, you're a douchey tryhard!" - if you notice a person behaving like that, take your game time elsewhere.
In my personal opinion? If you get torn up T3 then you were set up poorly or your deck sucks, I'll call it a lucky play if it's a rare occasion, but if it keeps happening then it's your fault for bringing a deck that can't compete and not my fault for playing what I draw. In fact, it's a waste of my time to sit in front of games like that all night long and a waste of your time to bring an unprepared list to play against someone who you know isn't going to hold your hand.
To a lot of people, that probably sounded really rude and terrible and how-dare-I, but being competitive is not being toxic. We all paid the ticket so we all get to take the ride, right? The important thing is being up-front about what type of person you are. I'm a very competitive person - my girlfriend asked me to teach her the game and I crushed her for six straight months until she started taking wins. Now she's probably better than me! I've got friends who just wanna try to make Monk tribal work, and I just don't play with those friends.
What's truly toxic, as in, a threat to the integrity of the game, is to pick your pace and expect everybody else to dance along. If you've got Sneak Attack + Blightsteel Colossus and you pull up a chair with Monk guy and you're there to make grass, you're being toxic. And if you bring your cheesy precon-with-two-extra-rares-out-of-the-freebie-bin deck to a table full of tournament grinders and then whine when you get taken to church, well, unpopular opinion, you're being toxic there too.
It boils down to knowing what kind of player you are and playing with likeminded people. If you get murdered, pull your pants up and earn your place at the table or find a new table. I'll chat Magic with anyone who knows what a "mana" is because I love everyone out there who plays, but I always let people know what kind of game I play when they offer a match. If I draw a quick win, guess what, I'm winning quick! And you'd better do the same. You will never catch me with cards and mana ready to go, taking hits I don't need to, because the other guys need me to bend down to catch me on the chin. It would be a disrespect to the game.
tl;dr - if they can't take the heat they need to go to an ice cream parlour instead
This is another thread where the definitive answer is "ask your friends" because every playgroup is different, and it's really them and not us you should be OKing your strats with.
That said, you've kind of found the paradox of convenience that toxic EDH players bring to the table. If they blow you out early with a Krenko machine gun or something they're all "nothin personnel kid.." but if you lay the hurt down on them, the tune changes to "hey! EDH is just for fun, you're a douchey tryhard!" - if you notice a person behaving like that, take your game time elsewhere.
In my personal opinion? If you get torn up T3 then you were set up poorly or your deck sucks, I'll call it a lucky play if it's a rare occasion, but if it keeps happening then it's your fault for bringing a deck that can't compete and not my fault for playing what I draw. In fact, it's a waste of my time to sit in front of games like that all night long and a waste of your time to bring an unprepared list to play against someone who you know isn't going to hold your hand.
To a lot of people, that probably sounded really rude and terrible and how-dare-I, but being competitive is not being toxic. We all paid the ticket so we all get to take the ride, right? The important thing is being up-front about what type of person you are. I'm a very competitive person - my girlfriend asked me to teach her the game and I crushed her for six straight months until she started taking wins. Now she's probably better than me! I've got friends who just wanna try to make Monk tribal work, and I just don't play with those friends.
What's truly toxic, as in, a threat to the integrity of the game, is to pick your pace and expect everybody else to dance along. If you've got Sneak Attack + Blightsteel Colossus and you pull up a chair with Monk guy and you're there to make grass, you're being toxic. And if you bring your cheesy precon-with-two-extra-rares-out-of-the-freebie-bin deck to a table full of tournament grinders and then whine when you get taken to church, well, unpopular opinion, you're being toxic there too.
It boils down to knowing what kind of player you are and playing with likeminded people. If you get murdered, pull your pants up and earn your place at the table or find a new table. I'll chat Magic with anyone who knows what a "mana" is because I love everyone out there who plays, but I always let people know what kind of game I play when they offer a match. If I draw a quick win, guess what, I'm winning quick! And you'd better do the same. You will never catch me with cards and mana ready to go, taking hits I don't need to, because the other guys need me to bend down to catch me on the chin. It would be a disrespect to the game.
tl;dr - if they can't take the heat they need to go to an ice cream parlour instead
Amen. I wish more people had the intestinal fortitude to say this and not apologize. I agree 100%. The post also gave me some laughs. Best post I've read all week.
I assume you mean alpha strike early. Because the last thing we need is combo players whining about aggro players, to go with the combo players whining about control players, midrange players whining about combo and control players, etc.
On phasing:
I mean... it requires more tutors and fast mana than it does luck Killing one player isn't the problem, it's killing the other 1-4...
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Average player? Honestly I think people just want to play magic, so if the game ends and one person wins on the spot.. Time for another game! Like I said if one person gets knocked out super fast then that just feels bad
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
As far as the topic goes, I would generally say it isn't something I'd like to see consistently at least. Here and there is one thing, but a recurring thing would be annoying.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I mean, unless you have the stone cold nuts hand (and if you do, I don't blame you for wanting to play it to its fullest potential), the blue players allowed Sneak Attack to resolve, it sat there for an entire circle, the green/white players didn't blow it up, the guy untaps and activates it (like this is a big surprise or something) and now no one has a way to bounce/kill the Collossus or at least soak up 2 damage from it? I mean, no good can come of a Sneak Attack sitting on the table, what did you expect the guy to do, put a fuzzy bunny token into play?
Besides that, how common is such an occurance really. You have the stone cold nuts opener of sol ring/sneak attack how often? Is it really that much of a problem?
The only time I can see such a play as "taboo" might be if it's a brand new playgroup who's power level is obviously beneath this, or if it's a large table where the rest of the game can go on for a long time. But I'd expect another player to get eliminated in 15 minutes or so and then I'll play 1v1 or Legacy or something while the rest of the table grinds out. I mean, kinda sucks to be me for 15 mins, but that's ok, that kind of play doesn't happen all the time and it's my fault for tapping out with an StP in my hand knowing there was a Sneak Attack on the table.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
I have held onto kills many times because it would have made the game less fun and for my playgroup, finding the hours to go to a shop and play is precious. For my playgroup the fun is in playing, not necessarily being the winner in the end. This drives Spike players mad though lol. If Spike wants to win on turn 4 then Spike has to watch everyone else continue playing without him
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
It's just you.
There's only so much playable removal that can hit sneak attack or the indestructible threat it brings out, and players are usually trying to develop their own board early on. You have to build your deck expecting people to try and end the game starting from turn 3 or later and that results in MUCH different decks than people would run in more casual edh. Keep in mind that these kinds of strategies continue to work in faster, stronger formats with more consistent decks. Saying "just have the answer" shows a bad understanding of the game.
If you are playing casual decks but have plays like this, I've found it's reasonably common that one player gets knocked out and then the game goes on for an hour. These types of situations are what cause people to stop playing.
I'm just saying that if the table is big enough to where I'm gonna be out for an hour, that implies at least 4 players, probably more like 5. And if someone's running a deck that's Sneaking out Blightsteel on T3/4, I would argue that implies a fairly competitive scene- casual decks don't Sneak Attack a Blightsteel on T3/4. Having said that, if I were playing a casual player and they had the opportunity to make that play, I imagine it's a pretty infrequent, rare occurrence- you don't get to make a play that splashy every day, I'd kind of half expect them to make it. On the other hand, if your deck is routinely doing stuff like this, I'd argue you're playing competitively and anything goes and this shouldn't take very long to finish anyway.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
As to the OP's question, no it's really not a faux pas, at least I don't feel it is. It either ends the game pretty solidly for everyone and we'll just shuffle up and play another one, or someone is able to come up with an answer (cheap removal, bounce spells, blockers, etc.) and the game continues from there with a very clear target. Now it sucks if someone gets knocked out from the get go, but in theory the offending party will also be knocked out pretty quickly, and then the two of them can play some quick games in the interim.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
That said, you've kind of found the paradox of convenience that toxic EDH players bring to the table. If they blow you out early with a Krenko machine gun or something they're all "nothin personnel kid.." but if you lay the hurt down on them, the tune changes to "hey! EDH is just for fun, you're a douchey tryhard!" - if you notice a person behaving like that, take your game time elsewhere.
In my personal opinion? If you get torn up T3 then you were set up poorly or your deck sucks, I'll call it a lucky play if it's a rare occasion, but if it keeps happening then it's your fault for bringing a deck that can't compete and not my fault for playing what I draw. In fact, it's a waste of my time to sit in front of games like that all night long and a waste of your time to bring an unprepared list to play against someone who you know isn't going to hold your hand.
To a lot of people, that probably sounded really rude and terrible and how-dare-I, but being competitive is not being toxic. We all paid the ticket so we all get to take the ride, right? The important thing is being up-front about what type of person you are. I'm a very competitive person - my girlfriend asked me to teach her the game and I crushed her for six straight months until she started taking wins. Now she's probably better than me! I've got friends who just wanna try to make Monk tribal work, and I just don't play with those friends.
What's truly toxic, as in, a threat to the integrity of the game, is to pick your pace and expect everybody else to dance along. If you've got Sneak Attack + Blightsteel Colossus and you pull up a chair with Monk guy and you're there to make grass, you're being toxic. And if you bring your cheesy precon-with-two-extra-rares-out-of-the-freebie-bin deck to a table full of tournament grinders and then whine when you get taken to church, well, unpopular opinion, you're being toxic there too.
It boils down to knowing what kind of player you are and playing with likeminded people. If you get murdered, pull your pants up and earn your place at the table or find a new table. I'll chat Magic with anyone who knows what a "mana" is because I love everyone out there who plays, but I always let people know what kind of game I play when they offer a match. If I draw a quick win, guess what, I'm winning quick! And you'd better do the same. You will never catch me with cards and mana ready to go, taking hits I don't need to, because the other guys need me to bend down to catch me on the chin. It would be a disrespect to the game.
tl;dr - if they can't take the heat they need to go to an ice cream parlour instead
Amen. I wish more people had the intestinal fortitude to say this and not apologize. I agree 100%. The post also gave me some laughs. Best post I've read all week.