I have been scouring every MTG forum and blog I can find for discussion of the Aikido archetype. I often come back to Rachmiel's retired Tariel Primer as a great example of Aikido, and I have built my current favorite deck Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control with the principles outlined there and some other places in an attempt to optimize that style of play for my current meta. I have seen other examples of Aikido put forward with a slightly different take, typified by Sheldon Menery's "You Did this to Yourself" deck.
I am looking for examples of excellent Aikido style decks. I would love to see more examples so that I can get a better idea of the archetype, and so that I can keep working on my version of this deck. I would also love feedback on my version, and how my version would likely interact with other metas and other decks. I would like to get a list of other cards that would fit my deck or other Aikido decks that would help to tune them to other metas. I would also love to have a healthy discussion about the various examples of Aikido decks and how we can define the Archetype. I welcome being directed to other threads and blog posts to help my understanding.
Interesting concept! I tend to favor blue as a very aikido'esque color. White also has aikido like elements. Perhaps some form of pillowfort featuring cloning/redirecting type effects. Cloning, isn't inherently aggressive and simply mimics. Bouncing effects also to represent reversals and rendering attack futile. The question is then how do you win, because aikido is inherently about avoiding conflict, because conflict revolves around enemies and enemy seeking, in which case aikido does not believe in the enemy (the only "enemy" or conflict is in the Self). However, you don't have to aim to "win" in this sense, since there is no competition. Maybe Azami style deck as well? Azami can be built many ways, but as an indirect combo that is nonviolent with lab maniac, you are not hurting anyone.
I don't believe that Aikido, especially as a MTG concept, has to be complete avoidance of conflict, just cards and strategy would need to not inherently be aggressive, and often require the aggression of the opponents to fuel your victory. I think classically, Aikido as a MTG concept has included blue for clone, steal, bounce, and counter effects, and white for strong defense, but also often red for creating victory out of redirected aggression through steal effects, fork effects, and even the classic Aikido card Deflecting Palm. I want to explore this more, but I find that steal effects create animosity toward you that enhances aggression and conflict with your opponents that is best avoided if one desires to parallel the philosophy of Aikido instead of just cleave to the MTG Aikido traditions. Mardu has some very interesting cards for Aikido, and I use them for my Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control deck to great effect. Do you have decklists or links for a blue deck, possibly an Azami deck, that you would say represents Aikido in MTG?
I used to run a heavy duty Akido deck also running Tariel as the general. Its biggest problem is that this style of play can shut down big dumb creature decks further discouraging them from play and pushing the meta further towards combo
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
I do agree in the color choices. Some cards I might include besides the obvious bounce and counter spells would be stuff like deflecting palm, burn trail seems like it might have some synergy with some of the blue creatures that tap to draw you cards, curse of echoes, echo mags is a personal favorite of mine, fork, increasing vengeance is great both early and late game, mirrorwing dragon would be one of the few creatures I'd run, odds/ends pretty much covers everything this deck wants to do all wrapped up in one card, psychic rebuttal, reverberate, rite of replication, twin cast, wild ricochet, or even dads would work pretty well in the deck you're describing. And if you're going pillow fort rwu the best option for a commander would be zedruu the greathearted. The way the deck would essentially work is give them your stuff then bounce one of them and play a copy spell on it to bounce another back to your hand. So the turn progression would look something like this.
You- add permanents to the field
P2- takes turn
P3- takes turn, you give your stuff to p2
P4- takes turn
You- gain some life, draw some cards and bounce all of your stuff back to your hand
Let the rest of the players duke it out because you're a non threat at this point then if they try to burn you play some sort of redirection spell like wild ricochet or deflecting palm. The bounce portion of your turn would work best if you've gifted them a mirrorwing dragon and target it with a bounce spell. That way you get all of your stuff back and bounce everything they have back to your hands. Then let them have fun trying to replay everything. Essentially slowing one down at a time until you're up 1v1. At this point your life total should be fairly high so you shouldn't have to worry about dying any time soon. Harmless offering will help you gift stuff to them too. But then again that's just a janky control type strategy I came up with on the fly. And now that I think about it and run through it in my head it sounds like it might actually work. Annoying for the other players but fun for you. And essentially the wincon in the deck would be something like felidar sovereign and test of endurance. Start gifting quick and then get one of them out on the field and as long as you play your redirection spells correctly you win.
I have build an aikido kynaios and tiro of meletis deck, as the thing stopping me to build it was not having a commander that fit, and I definitely wanted to play UWR.
The deck is suprisingly good and I somehow keep winning with it in my somewhat casual meta.
I can put the decklist up coming week, Ill get back to rhis thread by then.
I am finding a similar thing regarding the big creature decks. I am looking for cards that function in the same way as my current Aikido cards, but that work against combo. My current meta mostly frowns on infinite combos, Stax, or land destruction. I think that land destruction would be less of a problem for my current Aikido deck than most, given it's low average CMC an multiple Land Tax effects and moderate suite of rocks, but I combo and Stax may prove to be a problem. I want to understand the Aikido archetype, see examples of interesting Aikido decks, hear stories of Aikido decks in other metas, and hopefully expand the understanding of the Aikido archetype so that I can move from meta to meta and adjust my deck to compensate. The Aikido archetype as I have it tuned in my deck is very fun to play, takes a lot of very subtle skill and understanding of MTG, table play and meta, and even the psychology behind the play of MTG. jsNZ, that is exactly the type of comment I am searching for. Can you comment on how your deck was evolved to compensate for combo? Could other styles of Aikido have compensated better? If you abandoned your Aikido deck, do you ever bring it out as a surprise alternative, and if so, how has it done when it made it's return? Thanks for the contribution.
I have build an aikido kynaios and tiro of meletis deck, as the thing stopping me to build it was not having a commander that fit, and I definitely wanted to play UWR.
The deck is suprisingly good and I somehow keep winning with it in my somewhat casual meta.
I can put the decklist up coming week, Ill get back to rhis thread by then.
I am also building this, would love to see your deck. Some cards that I'm using:
Blatant Thievery
Price of Progress
Treacherous Terrain
Insidious Will
Desertion
Diluvian Primordial
Arachnogenesis
Expropriate
Recurring Insight
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Viscious Shadows
Roil Elemental
In my meta we don't play infinite combo or MLD, the deck has some trouble against classic control and huge trouble with anti control cards like city of solitude. Be sure to actively help the other players on the table and form alliances to remove your biggest problem-opponent first.
The thing with cards is that it is very dependent on your meta, for example price of progress often does more damage to me then opponents, I played treacherous terrain but had the same problem.
I like recurring insight as on theme draw, but I quickly noticed that this deck really wants to do as little on my own turn as possible. (in my deck mostly vengeful archon is in a awkward position, but it did some work, so I'll keep it for now.)
The good thing about blue in a aikido deck is definitely the blue combat tricks, best being reins of power, these cards have been awesome and really important in taking over games.
The great thing about the deck is it looks innocent, but everyone knows it can be dangerous, no one wants to walk into my trap so I get left alone a lot. Meanwhile it is not the innocent looking combo deck that suddenly wins. (in that case of course everyone will be on you immediately)
Black apparently has 2 great options in backlash and delirium
For my deck I might reconsider, but think the rattlesnakes and pillowfort would dilute what the deck wants to do. It really fits your deck though!
Maybe I am missing something, but you might want to reconsider citadel of pain?
I am finding a similar thing regarding the big creature decks. I am looking for cards that function in the same way as my current Aikido cards, but that work against combo. My current meta mostly frowns on infinite combos, Stax, or land destruction. I think that land destruction would be less of a problem for my current Aikido deck than most, given it's low average CMC an multiple Land Tax effects and moderate suite of rocks, but I combo and Stax may prove to be a problem. I want to understand the Aikido archetype, see examples of interesting Aikido decks, hear stories of Aikido decks in other metas, and hopefully expand the understanding of the Aikido archetype so that I can move from meta to meta and adjust my deck to compensate. The Aikido archetype as I have it tuned in my deck is very fun to play, takes a lot of very subtle skill and understanding of MTG, table play and meta, and even the psychology behind the play of MTG. jsNZ, that is exactly the type of comment I am searching for. Can you comment on how your deck was evolved to compensate for combo? Could other styles of Aikido have compensated better? If you abandoned your Aikido deck, do you ever bring it out as a surprise alternative, and if so, how has it done when it made it's return? Thanks for the contribution.
I understand from the term of “aikido” to be cards like Deflecting Palm, Boros Fury-Shield, and Reflect Damage, etc. Breaking that down, you really have two separate effects: 1) damage prevention, 2) damage dealing. Expanding the list of considerations, you will probably want to focus more on the damage dealing aspect. And, there is plenty of this sort of indirect damage that is helpful against combo.
If you think about it, there are a lot of things of the “aikido” style that work similar to the classic White hate cards like Rule of Law, Spirit of the Labyrinth and Rest in Peace, but do so on the basis of damage rather than just shutting it down. That might be what you’re looking for in taking that style of deck to another meta.
Overall in playing this style, I’ve found it really challenging, but that it’s consistently improving as more options for generals are added. What is really the challenge, in one word, is consistency. There are so many cards that you have to run that are either conditional (like Deflecting Palm) or have little on-board impact (like the various enchantments). And once you fall behind on board, any two-sided effect that you have out (such as Spiteful Visions and Manabarbs), are worse for you than they are for opponents. So, you have to invest in board presence on top of everything you are doing.
What I’ve found effective is relying as much as I can on the general to bridge these gaps. Generals that kill creatures, gain life, or draw cards I have found the best, like Nesuksar, Queen Marchesa, etc. I have been interested in trying Breya for this, but haven’t put together a list yet, and also Tymna, the Weaver with Vial Smasher the Fierce.
Quite an interesting take on the subject, you are a bit more out of the box in your thinking.
In the case of my deck, it is necessary to understand that you will always be miles behind on board. If people don't do broken things it is significantly harder for me to win. To be able to do this I wanted as much of these cards as possible, so going with small effects like manabarbs is just reducing my chance of effectively aikido'ing. A downside to this playstyle is definitely not having the right answer at all the right times, careful and planned play is very important.
I've had some version of RW or RWU punisher for years and I very much enjoy the archetype. My current deck is Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas but I've run many other versions. The decks do pretty well and once you establish what they are capable of the average table will be very cautious to come after you. Lots of great stuff has already been mentioned but the single strongest card for this IMO is Sunforger. Particularly when you're in just RW the flexibility is amazing. Watch out for life loss combos since there are few ways to interact with them.
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I agree on Sunforger being an all-star. The cards that are at their best are all pretty conditional, like the charms and Deflecting Palm, while Sunforger helps you out in giving you consistent access to them and not costing you anything if you don't need them. Cards I really like with Sunforger here:
Rakdos Charm - Will often burn for 5-6+, on top of what it does as a combo breaker. Boros Charm - Just as good at defending your board as elsewhere, but you remember here it can also burn for 4. Comeuppance - A very nice fog, and really on theme. Price of Progress - Probably the most damage you'll get out of a single card. Increasing Vengeance - I find you want it in the graveyard more than in the library. Once you Sunforger it out, the next thing you sunforger out can be devastating. Hide // Seek It's a strong combo-breaker for being tutorable, provided you know what's in the targeted deck. Also can be used with a Vizkopa Guildmage activation to burn for a huge amount, seeing as how things like Blasphemous Act are run even in tighter groups.
Jusstice, that is an amazing list of anti-combo cards, many of them likely a good fit for a RWB Aikido deck. On your list, there are a bunch of punisher style permanent cards, and I have been limiting the number of these in my deck since I don't want to draw hate. Punisher cards often draw hate. Currently, my anti-combo suite includes Hide/Seek, Lapse of Certainty, and Angel's Grace, as well as general control and all my other cards that punish overcommitting to lands or creatures.
Punishing card draw or extra turns is a big hole in my defense, and I have considered Underworld Dreams on many occasions for this. I used to run Kambal, Consul of Allocations for Storm and Spellslinger decks, but there aren't any in my meta, so it was a pretty useless card. I have also considered Manabarbs for the same reason that I play Citadel of Pain, except that it is better at dealing Palinchron combo decks, but affects me as well. My meta also does not have a Palinchron combo deck, and Citadel of Pain can be very effective against reactive control decks, of which there are a few. I left Manabarbs out, but would consider it in the future with changing meta. Infinite turn antics can be shut down with graveyard hate, and that is included in the deck already. Infinite tokens is something that this deck handles quite well already.
I also find your list of Sunforger targets to be really good. I do not run Price of Progress, but have considered it. I run very few basics, most decks in my meta are 2 color and run few non-basics, so it may hurt me really badly. I may try it out, though. The damage potential has been really tempting, but again, it may be limited due to my meta. Acidic Soil has been an all star of my offense since adding it.
If you had not already checked it out, I reference your table position primer in the Influences section of my deck writeup. I really enjoy the non-card aspects of multiplayer MTG, and you did a really good job of highlighting some of these. If you have any further writings in a similar vein that would contribute to political, aikido, and non-cards aspects of the game, I would be interested in reading them.
Very good list of Sunforger cards so far. I'll also mention Riot Control and Dawn Charm as they have both saved me countless times. Harsh Justice is also excellent, albeit less so if you're going to die from the attack.
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Thanks for pointing out Riot Control. I had never paid attention to it. Dawn Charm is one I run, it is fantastic. Modal Fog. Harsh Justice is one I have run, it is nice, but I cut it for the same reasons that you did. I did eventually replace it with Eye for an Eye, and I don't gain much beyond targeting non-combat damage. It is sometimes pertinent, and can be fun, especially since taking some of the damage myself actually softens the blow politically, and is always an important consideration for this deck. The major benefit is that Eye for an Eye combines well with Delaying Shield for some occasional wins that would have been draws, while Harsh Justice does not.
I have been considering the aspect of Aikido decks that Jusstice brought up above, and I am unsure if I have worked out a solution. These decks need a level of consistency beyond what even combo decks need. Combo decks need their combo pieces, the sooner the better. Aikido decks need the right answer to everything thrown at them, as soon as their opponents throws it at them, but without creating the image of a treat until it is too late. You can manage this somewhat by limiting what comes at you through table politics and threat management, and you can manage this through Sunforger and similar tutors, but the bottom line is that when you are playing a reactive and interactive style, and your offense is dependent on getting it exactly right at exactly the right time, your defense has to be even tighter, your moment to moment options need to be even broader, and you have to trim every bit of fat possible. I guess that is why I have been slurring the archetype by adding an offense that does not depend on the opponent, or is effective against a vast majority of decks, if played right. It becomes interesting fitting in a Pillow Fort/Rattlesnake defense, a strong control package, a strong Aikido package that represents a significant offense on it's own, and an offense that is independent from, but effective against, a vast majority of decks, along with the usual EDH staples of ramp and card draw/advantage, and not doing it in a way that draws early hate from around the table. Making these all synergistic adds another layer of complexity. Utilizing such strong tutors as Sunforger make it way smoother, but each card has to be weighed carefully, it has to perform multiple functions or give outsized value, and it is likely highly important to tune this for local meta to get it right. This area of thought may need development for the archetype, and may lead us to some self discovery when building or piloting these decks.
I guess my problem with your reasoning is that by adding sunforger, pillowfort cards or your own offense you are actively making yourself a threat. Meaning you will have more coming to you, but less cards to react to that.
Mind that my deck is very different from yours, but just going all out on the reactive makes it work. (The deck worked a lot better then I expected before playing)
The good thing is, taking into account positioning, that with a lot of the cards in my deck I can actually wait all the way to being attacked or wait till someone does something stupid. People expect a reaction from me so they will hesitate before acting towards me. This makes it important for me to consequently punish attacks if I'm able to, keeps them scared
Meanwhile, the offense and threat in my deck is so low, that attacking my position is simply always wrong, and not attacking me, is in my opinion even the right choice.
Just to clarify, I don't want to eliminate the possibility that my deck can be a threat. I am fine with being able to blow people out of the water quickly. I just don't want my board state to disclose that fact. I want to create swing wins that are not advertised by a threatening board position, and that are initiated by an Aikido redirection of an attack against me. I also want to remove combo and Stax pieces, or any other cards that typically draw hate, unless it leads directly to a non-combo swing win off of a defensive play. Sunforger is a direct threat to my opponent only in that I can react to anything that they do, initiating my defensive turnaround, or as an adjunct to turning one of my few midrange beaters sideways. My Pillow Fort cards are meant to be as subtle as possible, including a Fog suite and a full Aikido suite to discourage attacks without being overbearing or oppressive. My goals align perfectly with what yours are, and Sunforger is not necessary for the win, but can make the deck more agile at the expense of subtlety. This is OK, because by the time I have Sunforger out, I should be able to announce myself as a treat without as much fear. It is just the best reactive tutor in my colors. Other tutors have to be proactive, and don't fit as well. I would preferably use more non-permanent tutors that were reactive, but I guess I don't really have any good examples.
If I understand the problem with Sunforger, it’s that it’s perceived as value, and value is perceived as a threat. So even if all you have in the deck are reactive cards, players will want to deal with a card that in their perception will be able to Chaos Warp everything that they do until it’s killed.
Also, it depends highly on the phase of the game, as in the original Tariel primer. During the middle game is when errant attacks are made for chip damage, and spot removal gets pointed around the table. For that reason, it’s not the right time to play Sunforger in this deck. It will either draw removal or increase your threat level for attacks. The time to play that card is in anticipation of someone being ready to close out the game. At that point, your threat level is less relevant, because some guy has resolved a Rite of Replication or something.
I’m in agreement with precociousapprentice that the middle game is the time for defensive cards that present the opportunity for opponents to play around. The trick is finding the right ones that further the game by prompting your opponents to further their board state and commit resources. I think they serve their place, but I am not a fan of cards like Norn’s Annex and Hissing Miasma that I see in some lists. I would rather run a card like Baneslayer Angel that plays a flexible role between offense and defense. A card like that is highly likely to protect you from attacks in most places during the course of an orbit, and it escalates the deployment of resources (creatures, wipes, etc). Other cards would be something like Custodi Lich, Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts, or Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs. Rather than preventing people from attacking you, they offer value in exchange for being attacked. It prompts the response to escalate on board, and in the meantime go elsewhere rather than kill your stuff.
For that reason, I really like Queen Marchesa as an improvement for this style. The monarch mechanic can either be played like an extra draw if you pillow fort, or it can be played in a way that turns opponents into pinatas (and gives you tokens). I have really been liking Custodi Lich in other decks for this effect also. You get rid of something, absorb an attack, then watch people fight over the emblem and escalate on board. If you need to kill something and Lich is still out, you can pick up the emblem again for another trigger.
If you had not already checked it out, I reference your table position primer in the Influences section of my deck writeup. I really enjoy the non-card aspects of multiplayer MTG, and you did a really good job of highlighting some of these. If you have any further writings in a similar vein that would contribute to political, aikido, and non-cards aspects of the game, I would be interested in reading them.
Thanks! I am glad that you got something out of it. Position does play really well with a reactive style, definitely.
I had actually cut Custodi Lich early in the evolution of my deck because I wanted to limit my Monarch cards. I wanted Monarch to be given away, then fought over, and I didn't want dead cards if I didn't want it back. You are right, though. It is a nice multifunction card that is flexible for both offense and defense. I love both Dread and Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs for the same reasons. Serra Ascendant is somewhat similar, since entering the late game with more life can supercharge my symmetrical damage cards. I have been moderately impressed with Slumbering Dragon for similar reasons, but only because people don't know that to do with it. It usually just ends up being an early deterrent and a later spot removal bait, which is actually just fine. I added several small creatures that are defensive in subtle ways, and then added both Hatred and Grenzo, Havoc Raiser to make them into actual threats. I also added a few big haymaker cards with effects that are disproportional to their costs that bring the pain to all decks in the late game.
So the game plan goes just about like this:
1. Start the game, play some things for board presence that do not look like threats but that encourage attacks to be pointed elsewhere. Optimally, these defenders are also able to play some offense at some point. Multifunction offense/soft defense cards.
2. As the game progresses, drop Queen Marchesa and the Monarch into play, pick off things with spot removal that can lead to states that we have a hard time with, but try to leave the deck development of each player alone as they start to target each other for some damage and conflict. If the Monarch is moving around the table, don't worry if it is not in your possession. Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.
3. Play lots of defensive cards that encourage escalation, hoping that people begin to think things like, "Just one more creature and I will be able to start chipping away at them.", or "If I drop this fatty, his midrange defender won't be able to stop me, and in the mean time, I can probably get him to pump it with Duelist's Heritage for crazy damage.", or "I need a few more lands to pay the attack tax against him, then it will be all over."
4. At some point, someone looks threatening, some exchanges take place, maybe a player is taken out, maybe everyone just gets beaten down, and we have sculpted a hand that is perfect for retaliation. At this point, we decide if we should wait, or go on the offensive. This is the time for Sunforger, either for retaliation, defense, or straight up beating people in the face with it. We are about to enter the end game.
5a. We drop a huge bomb. This can be a Hatred lifelink creature, Citadel of Pain, Backlash, Acidic Soil, etc... Can come before or after 5b.
5b. Someone launches a large attack at us, and we use an Aikido riposte for big damage.
6. If opponents are still in the game, follow up by turning defensive creatures into attacks. Sunforger and Duelist's Heritage are amazing here.
7. Return to 5a if opponents remain.
Sunforger does not want to come into play too early. It wants to come down just before someone goes nuclear, and after people have used their spot removal on each other. Sunforger should be seen as an asset to other people on the board when it is dropped, because someone else has a bigger perceived threat level, or it should only face one opponent. Even if it doesn't stick, we have hopefully sculpted a hand with real retaliation potential and a big bomb, and our board hopefully has some decent midrange attacker.
When I ran only Aikido cards and no real bombs, I had a harder time closing out games, and spent a lot of time trying to grind out a win that was waiting for a turnaround card from my opponent to steal from me. I noticed that my wins were off the back of midrange creatures included for their defensive potential. I played with different closing cards, and found that most dedicated closers that didn't take effect right away announced my intentions too much, and I was hated out. I don't really want my wins to build. I want them to come out of nowhere. When it is time to close, I want to be able to close. Now. The wins in this deck want to be a combination of bomb, Aikido, and midrange beater, and the game should be over in a turn or two once I enter the fray.
I am looking for examples of excellent Aikido style decks. I would love to see more examples so that I can get a better idea of the archetype, and so that I can keep working on my version of this deck. I would also love feedback on my version, and how my version would likely interact with other metas and other decks. I would like to get a list of other cards that would fit my deck or other Aikido decks that would help to tune them to other metas. I would also love to have a healthy discussion about the various examples of Aikido decks and how we can define the Archetype. I welcome being directed to other threads and blog posts to help my understanding.
Thank you all ahead of time.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Found some links:
The episode: http://www.commandercast.com/commandercast-s5e4
And article: http://www.commandercast.com/commander-aikido-why-temple-bell-isnt-as-bad-as-you-think
They're old shows, but there still might be some worthwhile stuff in there.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
This is an about average list for Azami, Lady of Scrolls.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
You- add permanents to the field
P2- takes turn
P3- takes turn, you give your stuff to p2
P4- takes turn
You- gain some life, draw some cards and bounce all of your stuff back to your hand
Let the rest of the players duke it out because you're a non threat at this point then if they try to burn you play some sort of redirection spell like wild ricochet or deflecting palm. The bounce portion of your turn would work best if you've gifted them a mirrorwing dragon and target it with a bounce spell. That way you get all of your stuff back and bounce everything they have back to your hands. Then let them have fun trying to replay everything. Essentially slowing one down at a time until you're up 1v1. At this point your life total should be fairly high so you shouldn't have to worry about dying any time soon. Harmless offering will help you gift stuff to them too. But then again that's just a janky control type strategy I came up with on the fly. And now that I think about it and run through it in my head it sounds like it might actually work. Annoying for the other players but fun for you. And essentially the wincon in the deck would be something like felidar sovereign and test of endurance. Start gifting quick and then get one of them out on the field and as long as you play your redirection spells correctly you win.
The deck is suprisingly good and I somehow keep winning with it in my somewhat casual meta.
I can put the decklist up coming week, Ill get back to rhis thread by then.
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
RWUBruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludovic's Opus Equipments Decklist
WBAthreos, God of Passage Reanimate/Goodstuff Decklist
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
I am also building this, would love to see your deck. Some cards that I'm using:
Blatant Thievery
Price of Progress
Treacherous Terrain
Insidious Will
Desertion
Diluvian Primordial
Arachnogenesis
Expropriate
Recurring Insight
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Viscious Shadows
Roil Elemental
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
In my meta we don't play infinite combo or MLD, the deck has some trouble against classic control and huge trouble with anti control cards like city of solitude. Be sure to actively help the other players on the table and form alliances to remove your biggest problem-opponent first.
The thing with cards is that it is very dependent on your meta, for example price of progress often does more damage to me then opponents, I played treacherous terrain but had the same problem.
I like recurring insight as on theme draw, but I quickly noticed that this deck really wants to do as little on my own turn as possible. (in my deck mostly vengeful archon is in a awkward position, but it did some work, so I'll keep it for now.)
The good thing about blue in a aikido deck is definitely the blue combat tricks, best being reins of power, these cards have been awesome and really important in taking over games.
The great thing about the deck is it looks innocent, but everyone knows it can be dangerous, no one wants to walk into my trap so I get left alone a lot. Meanwhile it is not the innocent looking combo deck that suddenly wins. (in that case of course everyone will be on you immediately)
What is your opinion about mindslaver and emrakul, the promised end for a aikido styled deck?
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
RWUBruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludovic's Opus Equipments Decklist
WBAthreos, God of Passage Reanimate/Goodstuff Decklist
I like it a lot, I got some cards from it I think I missed:
Black apparently has 2 great options in backlash and delirium
For my deck I might reconsider, but think the rattlesnakes and pillowfort would dilute what the deck wants to do. It really fits your deck though!
Maybe I am missing something, but you might want to reconsider citadel of pain?
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
RWUBruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludovic's Opus Equipments Decklist
WBAthreos, God of Passage Reanimate/Goodstuff Decklist
I understand from the term of “aikido” to be cards like Deflecting Palm, Boros Fury-Shield, and Reflect Damage, etc. Breaking that down, you really have two separate effects: 1) damage prevention, 2) damage dealing. Expanding the list of considerations, you will probably want to focus more on the damage dealing aspect. And, there is plenty of this sort of indirect damage that is helpful against combo.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Scab-Clan Berserker, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Pyrostatic Pillar – These essentially shut down Storm decks while they are out, and go a long way against Omniscience combo’s and infinite turn Eternal Witness setups. I actually started running these more and more as Reiterate combo’s started showing up, because there are so few things that interact with those otherwise.
Manabarbs, Burning Earth and Spellshock – These do what the above accomplishes, but also shut off Palinchron shenanigans.
Underworld Dreams, Nekusar, the Mindrazer, Spiteful Visions, and Kederekt Parasite – Most setups based off Laboratory Maniac will involve some sort of infinite mana dump into Stroke of Genius or a Mind Over Matter interaction. Pain on drawing cards will shut that down.
Dingus Staff, Massacre Wurm, Suture Priest, Blood Artist, Deathbringer Thoctar, Vicious Shadows, and Bloodchief Ascension – Things that care about cards dying on your opponent’s side will shut down Reveillark, Fiend Hunter and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed combos. Things that look at what enters the battlefield will also shut down Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker combos, at least most of the time.
The only other type of combo’s I can think of are based off activated abilities like Necrotic Ooze, so on. Burning-Tree Shaman and Linvala, Keeper of Silence are both good against that. Otherwise, just abrupt kills that aren’t really combo’s, such as Craterhoof Behemoth and Rite of Replication cheese.
If you think about it, there are a lot of things of the “aikido” style that work similar to the classic White hate cards like Rule of Law, Spirit of the Labyrinth and Rest in Peace, but do so on the basis of damage rather than just shutting it down. That might be what you’re looking for in taking that style of deck to another meta.
Overall in playing this style, I’ve found it really challenging, but that it’s consistently improving as more options for generals are added. What is really the challenge, in one word, is consistency. There are so many cards that you have to run that are either conditional (like Deflecting Palm) or have little on-board impact (like the various enchantments). And once you fall behind on board, any two-sided effect that you have out (such as Spiteful Visions and Manabarbs), are worse for you than they are for opponents. So, you have to invest in board presence on top of everything you are doing.
What I’ve found effective is relying as much as I can on the general to bridge these gaps. Generals that kill creatures, gain life, or draw cards I have found the best, like Nesuksar, Queen Marchesa, etc. I have been interested in trying Breya for this, but haven’t put together a list yet, and also Tymna, the Weaver with Vial Smasher the Fierce.
I see that a lot of the cards I go back to with this setup are also making other people’s lists. Rakdos Charm, Boros Charm, Deflecting Palm, Comeuppance. I have also found really strong any damage-based creature kill like Aether Flash, Fiery Confluence, Pyrohemia, with or without Repercussion.
In the case of my deck, it is necessary to understand that you will always be miles behind on board. If people don't do broken things it is significantly harder for me to win. To be able to do this I wanted as much of these cards as possible, so going with small effects like manabarbs is just reducing my chance of effectively aikido'ing. A downside to this playstyle is definitely not having the right answer at all the right times, careful and planned play is very important.
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
RWUBruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludovic's Opus Equipments Decklist
WBAthreos, God of Passage Reanimate/Goodstuff Decklist
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Rakdos Charm - Will often burn for 5-6+, on top of what it does as a combo breaker.
Boros Charm - Just as good at defending your board as elsewhere, but you remember here it can also burn for 4.
Comeuppance - A very nice fog, and really on theme.
Price of Progress - Probably the most damage you'll get out of a single card.
Increasing Vengeance - I find you want it in the graveyard more than in the library. Once you Sunforger it out, the next thing you sunforger out can be devastating.
Hide // Seek It's a strong combo-breaker for being tutorable, provided you know what's in the targeted deck. Also can be used with a Vizkopa Guildmage activation to burn for a huge amount, seeing as how things like Blasphemous Act are run even in tighter groups.
Punishing card draw or extra turns is a big hole in my defense, and I have considered Underworld Dreams on many occasions for this. I used to run Kambal, Consul of Allocations for Storm and Spellslinger decks, but there aren't any in my meta, so it was a pretty useless card. I have also considered Manabarbs for the same reason that I play Citadel of Pain, except that it is better at dealing Palinchron combo decks, but affects me as well. My meta also does not have a Palinchron combo deck, and Citadel of Pain can be very effective against reactive control decks, of which there are a few. I left Manabarbs out, but would consider it in the future with changing meta. Infinite turn antics can be shut down with graveyard hate, and that is included in the deck already. Infinite tokens is something that this deck handles quite well already.
I also find your list of Sunforger targets to be really good. I do not run Price of Progress, but have considered it. I run very few basics, most decks in my meta are 2 color and run few non-basics, so it may hurt me really badly. I may try it out, though. The damage potential has been really tempting, but again, it may be limited due to my meta. Acidic Soil has been an all star of my offense since adding it.
If you had not already checked it out, I reference your table position primer in the Influences section of my deck writeup. I really enjoy the non-card aspects of multiplayer MTG, and you did a really good job of highlighting some of these. If you have any further writings in a similar vein that would contribute to political, aikido, and non-cards aspects of the game, I would be interested in reading them.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
I have been considering the aspect of Aikido decks that Jusstice brought up above, and I am unsure if I have worked out a solution. These decks need a level of consistency beyond what even combo decks need. Combo decks need their combo pieces, the sooner the better. Aikido decks need the right answer to everything thrown at them, as soon as their opponents throws it at them, but without creating the image of a treat until it is too late. You can manage this somewhat by limiting what comes at you through table politics and threat management, and you can manage this through Sunforger and similar tutors, but the bottom line is that when you are playing a reactive and interactive style, and your offense is dependent on getting it exactly right at exactly the right time, your defense has to be even tighter, your moment to moment options need to be even broader, and you have to trim every bit of fat possible. I guess that is why I have been slurring the archetype by adding an offense that does not depend on the opponent, or is effective against a vast majority of decks, if played right. It becomes interesting fitting in a Pillow Fort/Rattlesnake defense, a strong control package, a strong Aikido package that represents a significant offense on it's own, and an offense that is independent from, but effective against, a vast majority of decks, along with the usual EDH staples of ramp and card draw/advantage, and not doing it in a way that draws early hate from around the table. Making these all synergistic adds another layer of complexity. Utilizing such strong tutors as Sunforger make it way smoother, but each card has to be weighed carefully, it has to perform multiple functions or give outsized value, and it is likely highly important to tune this for local meta to get it right. This area of thought may need development for the archetype, and may lead us to some self discovery when building or piloting these decks.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Mind that my deck is very different from yours, but just going all out on the reactive makes it work. (The deck worked a lot better then I expected before playing)
The good thing is, taking into account positioning, that with a lot of the cards in my deck I can actually wait all the way to being attacked or wait till someone does something stupid. People expect a reaction from me so they will hesitate before acting towards me. This makes it important for me to consequently punish attacks if I'm able to, keeps them scared
Meanwhile, the offense and threat in my deck is so low, that attacking my position is simply always wrong, and not attacking me, is in my opinion even the right choice.
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
RWUBruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludovic's Opus Equipments Decklist
WBAthreos, God of Passage Reanimate/Goodstuff Decklist
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Also, it depends highly on the phase of the game, as in the original Tariel primer. During the middle game is when errant attacks are made for chip damage, and spot removal gets pointed around the table. For that reason, it’s not the right time to play Sunforger in this deck. It will either draw removal or increase your threat level for attacks. The time to play that card is in anticipation of someone being ready to close out the game. At that point, your threat level is less relevant, because some guy has resolved a Rite of Replication or something.
I’m in agreement with precociousapprentice that the middle game is the time for defensive cards that present the opportunity for opponents to play around. The trick is finding the right ones that further the game by prompting your opponents to further their board state and commit resources. I think they serve their place, but I am not a fan of cards like Norn’s Annex and Hissing Miasma that I see in some lists. I would rather run a card like Baneslayer Angel that plays a flexible role between offense and defense. A card like that is highly likely to protect you from attacks in most places during the course of an orbit, and it escalates the deployment of resources (creatures, wipes, etc). Other cards would be something like Custodi Lich, Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts, or Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs. Rather than preventing people from attacking you, they offer value in exchange for being attacked. It prompts the response to escalate on board, and in the meantime go elsewhere rather than kill your stuff.
For that reason, I really like Queen Marchesa as an improvement for this style. The monarch mechanic can either be played like an extra draw if you pillow fort, or it can be played in a way that turns opponents into pinatas (and gives you tokens). I have really been liking Custodi Lich in other decks for this effect also. You get rid of something, absorb an attack, then watch people fight over the emblem and escalate on board. If you need to kill something and Lich is still out, you can pick up the emblem again for another trigger.
Thanks! I am glad that you got something out of it. Position does play really well with a reactive style, definitely.
So the game plan goes just about like this:
1. Start the game, play some things for board presence that do not look like threats but that encourage attacks to be pointed elsewhere. Optimally, these defenders are also able to play some offense at some point. Multifunction offense/soft defense cards.
2. As the game progresses, drop Queen Marchesa and the Monarch into play, pick off things with spot removal that can lead to states that we have a hard time with, but try to leave the deck development of each player alone as they start to target each other for some damage and conflict. If the Monarch is moving around the table, don't worry if it is not in your possession. Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.
3. Play lots of defensive cards that encourage escalation, hoping that people begin to think things like, "Just one more creature and I will be able to start chipping away at them.", or "If I drop this fatty, his midrange defender won't be able to stop me, and in the mean time, I can probably get him to pump it with Duelist's Heritage for crazy damage.", or "I need a few more lands to pay the attack tax against him, then it will be all over."
4. At some point, someone looks threatening, some exchanges take place, maybe a player is taken out, maybe everyone just gets beaten down, and we have sculpted a hand that is perfect for retaliation. At this point, we decide if we should wait, or go on the offensive. This is the time for Sunforger, either for retaliation, defense, or straight up beating people in the face with it. We are about to enter the end game.
5a. We drop a huge bomb. This can be a Hatred lifelink creature, Citadel of Pain, Backlash, Acidic Soil, etc... Can come before or after 5b.
5b. Someone launches a large attack at us, and we use an Aikido riposte for big damage.
6. If opponents are still in the game, follow up by turning defensive creatures into attacks. Sunforger and Duelist's Heritage are amazing here.
7. Return to 5a if opponents remain.
Sunforger does not want to come into play too early. It wants to come down just before someone goes nuclear, and after people have used their spot removal on each other. Sunforger should be seen as an asset to other people on the board when it is dropped, because someone else has a bigger perceived threat level, or it should only face one opponent. Even if it doesn't stick, we have hopefully sculpted a hand with real retaliation potential and a big bomb, and our board hopefully has some decent midrange attacker.
When I ran only Aikido cards and no real bombs, I had a harder time closing out games, and spent a lot of time trying to grind out a win that was waiting for a turnaround card from my opponent to steal from me. I noticed that my wins were off the back of midrange creatures included for their defensive potential. I played with different closing cards, and found that most dedicated closers that didn't take effect right away announced my intentions too much, and I was hated out. I don't really want my wins to build. I want them to come out of nowhere. When it is time to close, I want to be able to close. Now. The wins in this deck want to be a combination of bomb, Aikido, and midrange beater, and the game should be over in a turn or two once I enter the fray.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!