I find the very idea of playing "flip it or rip it" horrifying, I double-sleeve absolutely everything, and just watching people play a draft deck unsleeved is like a kick to the groin, so when I say that if I could somehow acquire every copy of Cyclonic Rift ever printed and hurl them into a bonfire while simultaneously having WotC sign a legally binding agreement to never print any more copies until the heat death of the universe, that I would do so without a moments hesitation, you can probably get a hint of just how tired I am of seeing that card played in EVERY blue EDH deck that isn't mine (none of my decks that could run that card do, because I despise it).
I would have to say any of the Big Eldrazi. Everyone in the playgroup plays a full set in each deck also. While I just bought my first for a specific deck, I think anything that taps and exiles half the board before blockers are declared, while also being nearly unkillable is a bit too much. Also Atraxa. While it is neat, having everyone in the group have some form of superfriends or reanimator version of her gets annoying, knowing that every game there will be an atraxa deck on the table.
[quote from="Nyarlathotep333 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/768613-what-cards-are-you-tired-of-seeing-in-commander?comment=11"]Any tutors. They slow down the game and too many players use them to fetch combo pieces, which isn't a big deal I guess but I have seen too many instances where players jam as many of them as possible into their deck to fetch some power combo as early as possible. I find games vs. those kinds of decks usually tend to be pretty predictable and boring. I would love to find a play group that would agree to ban tutors and cards that allowed deck fixing.
Well in a singleton format you have to realize there is nothing you can do to stop people from using them. Every black deck I make uses demonic tutor just a fact of the format.
Meren, always recurring Fleshbag. I have a playgroup of about 6-7 regulars, and for whatever reason, even with all those players we have no more than 2 copies of the same general with the exception of Meren, as 4 players have a Meren deck. I friggin' hate Fleshbag, Sheoldred, Grave Pact, you'll-never-get-another-freaking-creature-on-the-board garbage, and no one ever seems to run enough graveyard hate.
I am going to go more with an overarching staples / generic wincons.
I get kind of bored of seeing big generic haymaker kills that dont really have any identity to them and or are used across a lot of decks. I dont mind at all being killed by something unique and or flavorful but I am getting really tired of seeing an enormous token wave be flashed in and then move at everyone being super pumped.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
*Edit - my rule for Rhystic Study is that it is up to the opponent to pay or not pay (without reminders) and up to the person playing it to pay attention to whether or not the cost was paid. There should be no reason to have to keep saying "Did you pay the 1?" I have always been up front about this and so far haven't heard any complaints about it. I find that people tend remember to pay the cost pretty quickly if they have issues with their opponent repeatedly drawing cards from it after the first few times it happens.
It's a triggered ability and the player casting the spell doesn't have to pay until after the trigger. I feel it is the responsibility of the player who controls Rhystic to remember the trigger and "announce" it out of common courtesy. In case other players want to respond to that trigger.
Also, they shouldn't be asking "Did you pay" they should be asking "Will you pay." And they should be doing it every trigger.
For me, it's Time Warp variants. Just because one of my friends plays like... two or three different decks where the win-con is snowballing Warp or Time Stretch with E-Wit and various other recursion cards. At this point, a resolved Time Warp in his deck is just as obviously game winning as a resolved Tooth and Nail from mine. Except it doesn't win on the first extra turn, or the second, or the third. And while I'm perfectly willing to scoop it up when he has three turns lined up, there's always someone at the table who believes he can still whiff at that point and wants to play it out.
I can see how Cyclonic Rift can be annoying for many players. I was playing with a more casual group over the holidays and I couldn't cast that card and not win the game, even playing dorky thematic decks like Lantern Circu. Fortunately I don't run into it very often in my main playgroup.
The problem is that there are 3-4x “why would you ever not run this” type cards in each color. So with a 3-color deck, you’ve already got about 10x cards decided. I really wish it was actually a decision whether to run D-tutor, so on, but it’s not.
Demonic Tutor = Its only downside is it costs 2 mana. Sylvan Tutor = It costs one, is more narrow, and puts the searched card on top of your library. Gamble = Costs one, can search for anything, but comes with the drawback of you discarding a random card including the tutored card. Rhystic Tutor = Costs 3, can search for anything but your opponent can pay 2 mana to prevent it.
In my group for the other players it's probably Gaea's Cradle because I played it so often, along with the tutors I used to get it (Demonic, Vampiric, and the Witch). That's part of why I took them out. Abused that a bit too much...now to see if I have to go through some extra pain until they realize I don't have them in anymore.
Time spells
Fast Mana
deadeye navigator
palinchron
tooth & nail
kiki jiki
mikaeus the unhallowed
purphoros & impact tremors
craterhoof behemoth
Pay X to Win Game spells like exsanguinate, debt to the deathless & genesis wave
insurrection effects
"You Win The Game" cards/effects
"You Can't Play X cards" effects
Mindslaver effects
LD on anything other than OP nonbasic lands
pretty much every 2 card combo
We could delete all of these from the format and I wouldnt miss them one bit.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
Time spells
Fast Mana
deadeye navigator
palinchron
tooth & nail
kiki jiki
mikaeus the unhallowed
purphoros & impact tremors
craterhoof behemoth
Pay X to Win Game spells like exsanguinate, debt to the deathless & genesis wave
insurrection effects
"You Win The Game" cards/effects
"You Can't Play X cards" effects
Mindslaver effects
LD on anything other than OP nonbasic lands
pretty much every 2 card combo
We could delete all of these from the format and I wouldnt miss them one bit.
Forgive me for asking, but what does that leave? my question is in all seriousness, I am quite new to this format, I am familiar with only a small set of strategies, but as far as win conditions, the only one I can think of that you didn't mention are 3+ card combo and straightforward creature beatdown like you can find in any Standard rotation. I built a Yisan deck that can win through tutored creatures and card advantage, but without fast mana like elves, without Genesis Wave or Primal Surge or Craterhoof, especially my elves for quick mana, it's just a pile of bad cards and very slow. I was told that burn spells are useless in a 40 life format, and I am not familiar with other types of win conditions that make this format different from the midrange of Standard, or maybe the combo I play EDH to get away from in my local Modern scene
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I don't like any card that is broken on its own for no reason. The largest all-time offender: Sol Ring. I don't know why people still think it's okay to play this card... I just wish it had been originally printed at rare. Then it would've just replaced Timetwister in the Power 9, and nobody would ever worry about it again except in Vintage.
Forgive me for asking, but what does that leave? my question is in all seriousness, I am quite new to this format, I am familiar with only a small set of strategies, but as far as win conditions, the only one I can think of that you didn't mention are 3+ card combo and straightforward creature beatdown like you can find in any Standard rotation. I built a Yisan deck that can win through tutored creatures and card advantage, but without fast mana like elves, without Genesis Wave or Primal Surge or Craterhoof, especially my elves for quick mana, it's just a pile of bad cards and very slow. I was told that burn spells are useless in a 40 life format, and I am not familiar with other types of win conditions that make this format different from the midrange of Standard, or maybe the combo I play EDH to get away from in my local Modern scene
When I said fast mana, I meant rocks, like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith and Basalt Monolith. also if your deck can't function without gen wave, craterhoof, or primal surge, I don't mean this to be offensive, but it sounds like a poorly built deck. My Reki and Rishkar decks don't run any of those cards and function just fine, it's exactly this touted "necessity" that makes me sick of these cards because everyone and their mother shoves them in their deck regardless of whether or not it fits the theme, or more likely the deck has no theme, it's just a boring pile of goodstuff shlock.
Theme on the other hand is the heart of why I find this format so much fun. I enjoy putting together decks than rely on their theme to be effective, rather than the power of the individual cards in the deck. I don't want to run the same crap over and over again until I'm running the same 10%-20% of the card pool everyone else is in their decks. I want to play stuff like Riku Copies Everything, Rishkar +1/+1 counters the deck or Legendary.dec, U/B Zombies, Sharuum Sphinx Tribal, Wizards.dec and Brago Blink.dec while sticking to those themes to a fault. If that makes them nothing but "a pile of bad cards" then at least It's my own unique pile of bad cards. Sure I might end up with a few cards you see everywhere in certain decks, like Doubling Season in a deck about +1/+1 counters or Riku, a deck about making an exponential number of token copies of good creatures, but in those decks they're not there to win me the game on the spot, they're part of a whole, a machine full of different working parts that comes together in a different but similar way every game.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
-Sol Ring and, to a lesser extent, Mana Crypt. Ubiquity and making for insanely explosive starts is quite tiresome.
-Cyclonic Rift. Well balanced for Standard/Modern/Legacy, but completely stupid on all but the most competitive EDH tables. The Rules Council tends to hate board resets (that don't end in a near-immediate win), but this card, more often than not, serves as one, as Rifting a board when behind is a great way to stay in a game.
-Any "Oops, I win" card. Craterhoof, Rise of the Dark Realms, Enter the Infinite, etc. Not only do they make for terribly unsatisfying endings, but they undercut the spirit of the format and Magic itself. What makes this game so compelling is engineering interesting gamestates through combinations of cards. Cards that only ask you to have some mana really deflate the fun here. Why go through the trouble of ticking up Liliana Vess or Grimoire of the Dead when you can just cast an easy-peasy sorcery?
I am going to go more with an overarching staples / generic wincons.
I get kind of bored of seeing big generic haymaker kills that dont really have any identity to them and or are used across a lot of decks. I dont mind at all being killed by something unique and or flavorful but I am getting really tired of seeing an enormous token wave be flashed in and then move at everyone being super pumped.
This basically.
I don't think there's any particular card that's necessarily annoying on its own. Even something as repetitive as DEN has places where it can be interesting. What I do think is...just uninspired deckbuilding, mostly...is when the wincon in a deck is either a well-known old combo, or just a bunch of value cards from the top 50 list played one after another until a win happens somehow. I mean, if you're just starting off then you're forgiven a bit, but there's lots of people that have been playing EDH for years and still make totally uninspired decks that just do nothing new. Sure, sometimes you need a good deck to play a competitive game with, but a lot of people don't seem to see any value in trying anything off the beaten path. It's an eternal format, people. If we keep playing Tooth and nail for dead-eye navigator + palinchron forever it's going to get real, real, REAL old.
Sol Ring/Mana Vault/Mana Crypt, but not because I think they're unfair. They're perfectly fair, but I'm just sick of people putting them in every deck. I dropped them from every deck where my Commander doesn't have a colorless cost, like Marath, Animar, and a bunch others. They're starting to seem like wasted card slots to me.
Iona, Shield of Emeria. It's really, really rare for me to say I hate a card, but I honestly hate Iona. I also tend to be a bit hateful of people that use her as well. She makes most monocolored decks just shut down and everyone I've ever played with just name the monocolored deck's color just to shut it out of the game.
I'm also growing disinterested in tutors. It's nice to be able to fetch fun cards when I make a deck around a certain interaction with my Commander, like numerous legends and Training grounds, but most people just tutor up win conditions and try to win turn 4.
So, yeah, sure I see Cyclonic Rift a bit, but not too often. I see Craterhoof Behemoth in only one deck. I see a few time spells, but not too many of the same ones. That is, if one deck is running Time Warp, another will be running Temporal Mastery, etc. It's a conscious meta choice.
Plus, building a Commander cube pretty much solves all the problems...
Meren, always recurring Fleshbag. I have a playgroup of about 6-7 regulars, and for whatever reason, even with all those players we have no more than 2 copies of the same general with the exception of Meren, as 4 players have a Meren deck. I friggin' hate Fleshbag, Sheoldred, Grave Pact, you'll-never-get-another-freaking-creature-on-the-board garbage, and no one ever seems to run enough graveyard hate.
also if your deck can't function without gen wave, craterhoof, or primal surge, I don't mean this to be offensive, but it sounds like a poorly built deck. My Reki and Rishkar decks don't run any of those cards and function just fine, it's exactly this touted "necessity" that makes me sick of these cards because everyone and their mother shoves them in their deck regardless of whether or not it fits the theme, or more likely the deck has no theme, it's just a boring pile of goodstuff shlock.
"If your deck doesn't function when you take out its win conditions, it's a poorly built deck." What? Maybe he didn't take offense to that, but I do. It's not bad deckbuilding to play cards that win the game when you cast them. You can enjoy playing thematic decks and dislike one-card win conditions all you want, but you cannot call someone bad at Magic for playing in a way you just don't like. You admit that the things you like to see in Commander could easily be, by someone else's estimation, "a pile of bad cards," so I don't see why you feel the need to call someone else's deck poorly built if it's playing toward Craterhoof Behemoth or Genesis Wave.
also if your deck can't function without gen wave, craterhoof, or primal surge, I don't mean this to be offensive, but it sounds like a poorly built deck. My Reki and Rishkar decks don't run any of those cards and function just fine, it's exactly this touted "necessity" that makes me sick of these cards because everyone and their mother shoves them in their deck regardless of whether or not it fits the theme, or more likely the deck has no theme, it's just a boring pile of goodstuff shlock.
"If your deck doesn't function when you take out its win conditions, it's a poorly built deck." What? Maybe he didn't take offense to that, but I do. It's not bad deckbuilding to play cards that win the game when you cast them. You can enjoy playing thematic decks and dislike one-card win conditions all you want, but you cannot call someone bad at Magic for playing in a way you just don't like. You admit that the things you like to see in Commander could easily be, by someone else's estimation, "a pile of bad cards," so I don't see why you feel the need to call someone else's deck poorly built if it's playing toward Craterhoof Behemoth or Genesis Wave.
Over reliance does make for poorly built decks. If your deck becomes useless if I hit you with Sad Sac or Jester's Cap, I'd go as far as to say it's poorly built. That tends to be my immediate assumption when someone tells me their deck is useless without X broken EDH staple in it which might be incorrect, but my experience is that it ends up being the case more often than I wish it would. The local Norin player would probably scoop if I ripped Purphoros, Impact Tremors and Confusion in the Ranks out of his deck because that's literally all his deck does to win, it has nothing beyond that. People have a bad habit of using overpowered cards to prop up decklists that otherwise have barely any cohesion.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
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BWREDGAR MARKOV VAMPIRESBWR
Well in a singleton format you have to realize there is nothing you can do to stop people from using them. Every black deck I make uses demonic tutor just a fact of the format.
- Cyclonic Rift
- Deadeye Navigator (I know it's easy to circumvent, but it's annoying all the same)
- Enter the Infinite (and Omniscience in the same breath)
- Expropriate (can you be tired of seeing a card if you're the only one playing it?)
- Mystic Remora
- Rhystic Study (and what annoys me most are the people who don't pay for it)
- Sol Ring
- Tooth and Nail
Guess I don't like blue players that much. :/I get kind of bored of seeing big generic haymaker kills that dont really have any identity to them and or are used across a lot of decks. I dont mind at all being killed by something unique and or flavorful but I am getting really tired of seeing an enormous token wave be flashed in and then move at everyone being super pumped.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
It's a triggered ability and the player casting the spell doesn't have to pay until after the trigger. I feel it is the responsibility of the player who controls Rhystic to remember the trigger and "announce" it out of common courtesy. In case other players want to respond to that trigger.
Also, they shouldn't be asking "Did you pay" they should be asking "Will you pay." And they should be doing it every trigger.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I can see how Cyclonic Rift can be annoying for many players. I was playing with a more casual group over the holidays and I couldn't cast that card and not win the game, even playing dorky thematic decks like Lantern Circu. Fortunately I don't run into it very often in my main playgroup.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Sylvan Tutor = It costs one, is more narrow, and puts the searched card on top of your library.
Gamble = Costs one, can search for anything, but comes with the drawback of you discarding a random card including the tutored card.
Rhystic Tutor = Costs 3, can search for anything but your opponent can pay 2 mana to prevent it.
Queen of Salt indeed
I should rebuild Jalira
Fast Mana
deadeye navigator
palinchron
tooth & nail
kiki jiki
mikaeus the unhallowed
purphoros & impact tremors
craterhoof behemoth
Pay X to Win Game spells like exsanguinate, debt to the deathless & genesis wave
insurrection effects
"You Win The Game" cards/effects
"You Can't Play X cards" effects
Mindslaver effects
LD on anything other than OP nonbasic lands
pretty much every 2 card combo
We could delete all of these from the format and I wouldnt miss them one bit.
Forgive me for asking, but what does that leave? my question is in all seriousness, I am quite new to this format, I am familiar with only a small set of strategies, but as far as win conditions, the only one I can think of that you didn't mention are 3+ card combo and straightforward creature beatdown like you can find in any Standard rotation. I built a Yisan deck that can win through tutored creatures and card advantage, but without fast mana like elves, without Genesis Wave or Primal Surge or Craterhoof, especially my elves for quick mana, it's just a pile of bad cards and very slow. I was told that burn spells are useless in a 40 life format, and I am not familiar with other types of win conditions that make this format different from the midrange of Standard, or maybe the combo I play EDH to get away from in my local Modern scene
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
When I said fast mana, I meant rocks, like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith and Basalt Monolith. also if your deck can't function without gen wave, craterhoof, or primal surge, I don't mean this to be offensive, but it sounds like a poorly built deck. My Reki and Rishkar decks don't run any of those cards and function just fine, it's exactly this touted "necessity" that makes me sick of these cards because everyone and their mother shoves them in their deck regardless of whether or not it fits the theme, or more likely the deck has no theme, it's just a boring pile of goodstuff shlock.
Theme on the other hand is the heart of why I find this format so much fun. I enjoy putting together decks than rely on their theme to be effective, rather than the power of the individual cards in the deck. I don't want to run the same crap over and over again until I'm running the same 10%-20% of the card pool everyone else is in their decks. I want to play stuff like Riku Copies Everything, Rishkar +1/+1 counters the deck or Legendary.dec, U/B Zombies, Sharuum Sphinx Tribal, Wizards.dec and Brago Blink.dec while sticking to those themes to a fault. If that makes them nothing but "a pile of bad cards" then at least It's my own unique pile of bad cards. Sure I might end up with a few cards you see everywhere in certain decks, like Doubling Season in a deck about +1/+1 counters or Riku, a deck about making an exponential number of token copies of good creatures, but in those decks they're not there to win me the game on the spot, they're part of a whole, a machine full of different working parts that comes together in a different but similar way every game.
-Cyclonic Rift. Well balanced for Standard/Modern/Legacy, but completely stupid on all but the most competitive EDH tables. The Rules Council tends to hate board resets (that don't end in a near-immediate win), but this card, more often than not, serves as one, as Rifting a board when behind is a great way to stay in a game.
-Any "Oops, I win" card. Craterhoof, Rise of the Dark Realms, Enter the Infinite, etc. Not only do they make for terribly unsatisfying endings, but they undercut the spirit of the format and Magic itself. What makes this game so compelling is engineering interesting gamestates through combinations of cards. Cards that only ask you to have some mana really deflate the fun here. Why go through the trouble of ticking up Liliana Vess or Grimoire of the Dead when you can just cast an easy-peasy sorcery?
I don't think there's any particular card that's necessarily annoying on its own. Even something as repetitive as DEN has places where it can be interesting. What I do think is...just uninspired deckbuilding, mostly...is when the wincon in a deck is either a well-known old combo, or just a bunch of value cards from the top 50 list played one after another until a win happens somehow. I mean, if you're just starting off then you're forgiven a bit, but there's lots of people that have been playing EDH for years and still make totally uninspired decks that just do nothing new. Sure, sometimes you need a good deck to play a competitive game with, but a lot of people don't seem to see any value in trying anything off the beaten path. It's an eternal format, people. If we keep playing Tooth and nail for dead-eye navigator + palinchron forever it's going to get real, real, REAL old.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
tooth and nail
time warp
cyclonic rift
those are the big ones that jump to mind
Iona, Shield of Emeria. It's really, really rare for me to say I hate a card, but I honestly hate Iona. I also tend to be a bit hateful of people that use her as well. She makes most monocolored decks just shut down and everyone I've ever played with just name the monocolored deck's color just to shut it out of the game.
I'm also growing disinterested in tutors. It's nice to be able to fetch fun cards when I make a deck around a certain interaction with my Commander, like numerous legends and Training grounds, but most people just tutor up win conditions and try to win turn 4.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
So, yeah, sure I see Cyclonic Rift a bit, but not too often. I see Craterhoof Behemoth in only one deck. I see a few time spells, but not too many of the same ones. That is, if one deck is running Time Warp, another will be running Temporal Mastery, etc. It's a conscious meta choice.
Plus, building a Commander cube pretty much solves all the problems...
Someday I'm going to live the dream of having Sigarda, Host of Herons in play when an opponent casually tosses off a Living Death.
"If your deck doesn't function when you take out its win conditions, it's a poorly built deck." What? Maybe he didn't take offense to that, but I do. It's not bad deckbuilding to play cards that win the game when you cast them. You can enjoy playing thematic decks and dislike one-card win conditions all you want, but you cannot call someone bad at Magic for playing in a way you just don't like. You admit that the things you like to see in Commander could easily be, by someone else's estimation, "a pile of bad cards," so I don't see why you feel the need to call someone else's deck poorly built if it's playing toward Craterhoof Behemoth or Genesis Wave.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Over reliance does make for poorly built decks. If your deck becomes useless if I hit you with Sad Sac or Jester's Cap, I'd go as far as to say it's poorly built. That tends to be my immediate assumption when someone tells me their deck is useless without X broken EDH staple in it which might be incorrect, but my experience is that it ends up being the case more often than I wish it would. The local Norin player would probably scoop if I ripped Purphoros, Impact Tremors and Confusion in the Ranks out of his deck because that's literally all his deck does to win, it has nothing beyond that. People have a bad habit of using overpowered cards to prop up decklists that otherwise have barely any cohesion.