That might be indicative of a dangerous thought process I see a lot of players fall into. They fall in love with their hands and make plans too far in advance and get stuck in tunnel vision. It's very dangerous.
You should love your deck. Not your hand. And be able to adjust plans when a wheel hits. I love playing with and against wheels.
To be fair, most people take a long time to figure out what to do; in order to play at a respectable pace, they have to plan through all their opponents' turns. Yeah, I can see how frequent wheeling could be problematic for many. Give the Yidris pre-con to an inexperienced player and get ready for a looooooong night. Newbs hate it when I play Niv, and I don't even run that many wheels even compared to the primers on here.
To be fair, most people take a long time to figure out what to do; in order to play at a respectable pace, they have to plan through all their opponents' turns. Yeah, I can see how frequent wheeling could be problematic for many. Give the Yidris pre-con to an inexperienced player and get ready for a looooooong night. Newbs hate it when I play Niv, and I don't even run that many wheels even compared to the primers on here.
Some take forever to play even when they've been planning
To be fair, most people take a long time to figure out what to do; in order to play at a respectable pace, they have to plan through all their opponents' turns. Yeah, I can see how frequent wheeling could be problematic for many. Give the Yidris pre-con to an inexperienced player and get ready for a looooooong night. Newbs hate it when I play Niv, and I don't even run that many wheels even compared to the primers on here.
Some take forever to play even when they've been planning
I suggest mogis, god of slaughter and all the pain enchantments. It wouldn't take long to completely wreck both blue control and creature heavy metas. Mogis, is of course, your only creature!
You rang?
To the op, my mogis deck might offer some inspiration to you in what you're trying to do.
It does pretty well in my creature heavy meta.
Well this is kinda of personal opinion. But I Actually love playing against a table of 3-4 decks that all cost 400+ than my deck. If i win i feel like the most happy guy in the world alive if I loose I can make fun of them because I don't spend 650+ on my lands alone. But yea I hate playing against combos when there is no control deck.
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[center][color=Blue]
U/R Delver
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
Child of Alara. "I'm going to spend 90% of the game with a total board wipe on a hair trigger. If you do ANYTHING I don't like or even look at me, you're losing everything you have. Repeatedly."
Maelstrom Wanderer. "I have more ramp than God and 18 different combos. I WANT you to kill my commander so I can recast him for another chance at an instant win. You don't want to kill him? Take 7 commander damage and these two 8/8 tramplers to the face every turn."
Nicol Bolas. "You don't need that hand. Having cards is for winners!"
Ever since the change(neutering) to tuck: Skullbriar. Unless someone has counter removal of some sort, you are SO done after a few turns. Removal is a non issue unless you spam it(and even then, it will take forever before the tax starts slowing down his appearances), and without wither or counter removal...you are in SO much trouble.
I've been seeing a lot more of Yosei, the Morning Star. Lord of Hosts that guy/girl is a total pita once he's out. I've seen some Voltron-types and some Stax-y ones. Both are vile.
Ever since the change(neutering) to tuck: Skullbriar. Unless someone has counter removal of some sort, you are SO done after a few turns. Removal is a non issue unless you spam it(and even then, it will take forever before the tax starts slowing down his appearances), and without wither or counter removal...you are in SO much trouble.
In my opinion is more about the player than the deck.
I think the most unfun to play against are players that do not respect the "social contract"... While magic is about winning, the ultimate goal is to have fun. (winning is fun, but loosing while having a beer and friendly conversation is also fun). A game of commander in my playgroup is a very social thing, and it is very unfun to play when the occasional antisocial player joins up.
Be it refusing to switch off extremely competitive decks when the rest of the group are playing their jank lists or precons, or starting to whine and/or tilt when all their combo pieces gets answered while the janky timmy threats go unanswered.
To answer the question though, most generals that you cannot prevent the value from anymore since the tuck rule is gone, are really annoying. see: Darevi
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EDH decks:
RWUNarset, jeskai burn RUB Marchesa the black rose R Daretti, reanimator goodstuff BU Vela, ninja assasin UG Ezuri, woodland critters.
Thats why you put it in the command zone if it gets bounced..
To the OP, go with Mogis and dont look back. All the great punisher cards are in red/black and it sounds like you enjoy manabarbs style cards.
Pretty much what SlavetoPhage and civmaster666 said. Since Skullbriar has a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card in regards to tucking, you are officially in trouble once he gets going.
Thankfully, I don't see him that often anymore...but I pity those that do.
Thats why you put it in the command zone if it gets bounced..
To the OP, go with Mogis and dont look back. All the great punisher cards are in red/black and it sounds like you enjoy manabarbs style cards.
Ah, I didn't know that rule changed with the tuck rule. Hm. Maybe I should make a Skullbriar deck.... I guess you just have to kill him a ton to make him prohibitively expensive to cast.
Yea I hate group hug and i particularly hate maralen out of the commnd zone as its a horrible plan as anyone can just tutor a kill for it and that's pretty much a best case scenario, the best way you could even use is is with flash or sandbagging it until you slam a combo lock piece at the same time. The people who just run her out irritate me to no end. I hate group hug because it gives a huge boost to whoever gets to use the ability first and makes sitting so you play after them always the best seat at the table I will literally ask to rotate seats if someone plays it in paper. Despite the fact that I mostly play combo and group hug just hands you free wins i really just hate it.
there are so many crazy commanders and people brewimg them, this question has lost all relevance.
When i started playing EDH there were like 3 Uril, Zur and Slivers. These 3 would get you targeted by the whole table and dead quick.
Now theres those plus about 50 other, Kaalia, Animar, Meren, Omnath, Rys,Bruna, Sigarda, Nekusar, Narset, Atraxis, half the new partner guys, just to name a few.
I feel like at this point its less about what commanders are hate magnets and more like there are two seperate levels of commanders. Competetive like this listed and then more casual guys that arent as powerful or easily broken.
Furthermore its more the player than the commander. ive seem a jerk build a turn 3 or 4 infinite combo with a commander they never even cast, and ive seen Animar decks that dont just bounce a creature over and over and dont make you want to choke someone.
If a deck is not fun to play against or you constantly face top tier commanders everytime, its the player not the cards.
I agree with everything you are saying. Problem is, good luck making people actually think about the other people at the table. I have had an Oloro Deck, Zur Deck, and Zen Triplets deck and I had them only for the general colors. I actually had someone manipulate the entire table against me by throwing out assumptions about what history my general has in general. In other words, they read a thread like this, and spread the hate.
Honestly the format could please a ton of players by just limited the number of times you can use an infinite loop. Don't give me this crap about how you could not throw it into official rules, we are intelligent we know what an infinite loops/arbitrarily large loops is. This is coming from a combo player. I love comboes, but I get tired of the pointless complaining about all of it.
I don't hate playing against any commander honestly. I like the intricacy and challenge, as well as politics and nuances of gameplay. Honestly, I think my only concern ever is about power level/lack of disruption at any given table. I don't hate any strategy, all they represent is a unique match, however, that being said you do need cards that can interact. And, honestly, removal/counters/discard is vital to good matches across the board. The only real dilemma I've seen at any table is either great variation in terms of power level, and a considerable lack of disruption. At this point in my experience with Edh, the more experienced players understand that regardless of your general, deck, card selection or strategy you must have an honest amount of disruption in your respective color(s).
More on topic, I can't stand Norin the Wary. Everyone who builds this thinks it's so damn cute and it's really just a big waste of time.
I'm with you here. It was a fun deck for a while but the borderline cult following has been grating for long enough that I'm just tired of it at this point.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
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To be fair, most people take a long time to figure out what to do; in order to play at a respectable pace, they have to plan through all their opponents' turns. Yeah, I can see how frequent wheeling could be problematic for many. Give the Yidris pre-con to an inexperienced player and get ready for a looooooong night. Newbs hate it when I play Niv, and I don't even run that many wheels even compared to the primers on here.
Some take forever to play even when they've been planning
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I blame blue. :3
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
You rang?
To the op, my mogis deck might offer some inspiration to you in what you're trying to do.
It does pretty well in my creature heavy meta.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/754642-mogis-enchantment-melee
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
If you sit down across from an Azami player, you better be ready to get comboed out on... every. single. time.
Maelstrom Wanderer. "I have more ramp than God and 18 different combos. I WANT you to kill my commander so I can recast him for another chance at an instant win. You don't want to kill him? Take 7 commander damage and these two 8/8 tramplers to the face every turn."
Nicol Bolas. "You don't need that hand. Having cards is for winners!"
Nicol Bolas Dragon Dick
Hanna, Ship's Navigator Heart-attack Stax
Oona, Queen of the Fae Fairy Dance
Vhati Il-Dal Tree of Woe
Scion of the Ur-Dragon Durgensturm
Jolrael, Empress of Beasts Jamuraa's Army
Liliana, Heretical Healer Rise from your Graves and Proliferate
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Angelic Judgment [
The table is forced to gang up on that player or we lose, either by combo or by a board state that overwhelms.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
This is why bounce is still useful in EDH.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I think the most unfun to play against are players that do not respect the "social contract"... While magic is about winning, the ultimate goal is to have fun. (winning is fun, but loosing while having a beer and friendly conversation is also fun). A game of commander in my playgroup is a very social thing, and it is very unfun to play when the occasional antisocial player joins up.
Be it refusing to switch off extremely competitive decks when the rest of the group are playing their jank lists or precons, or starting to whine and/or tilt when all their combo pieces gets answered while the janky timmy threats go unanswered.
To answer the question though, most generals that you cannot prevent the value from anymore since the tuck rule is gone, are really annoying. see: Darevi
RWU Narset, jeskai burn
RUB Marchesa the black rose
R Daretti, reanimator goodstuff
BU Vela, ninja assasin
UG Ezuri, woodland critters.
Skullbriar specifically says the counters don't remain if it moves to a player's hand.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
To the OP, go with Mogis and dont look back. All the great punisher cards are in red/black and it sounds like you enjoy manabarbs style cards.
Maralen of the Mornsong
Braids, Conjurer Adept
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Probably a few more I cannot recall at the moment.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Thankfully, I don't see him that often anymore...but I pity those that do.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Ah, I didn't know that rule changed with the tuck rule. Hm. Maybe I should make a Skullbriar deck.... I guess you just have to kill him a ton to make him prohibitively expensive to cast.
So... grouphug? Why?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I agree with everything you are saying. Problem is, good luck making people actually think about the other people at the table. I have had an Oloro Deck, Zur Deck, and Zen Triplets deck and I had them only for the general colors. I actually had someone manipulate the entire table against me by throwing out assumptions about what history my general has in general. In other words, they read a thread like this, and spread the hate.
Honestly the format could please a ton of players by just limited the number of times you can use an infinite loop. Don't give me this crap about how you could not throw it into official rules, we are intelligent we know what an infinite loops/arbitrarily large loops is. This is coming from a combo player. I love comboes, but I get tired of the pointless complaining about all of it.
And what idiot decided his card is worth $50 you can find him in conspiracy 2 and those packs can be found in Walmart/target
More on topic, I can't stand Norin the Wary. Everyone who builds this thinks it's so damn cute and it's really just a big waste of time.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect