I have not seen any other ideas with Baral yet and wanted to get some ideas on what is the best way to build him. Mostly, what is the correct amount of counter magic that we want to include in a list such as this? He triggers off of countering spells to loot a card which digs through the deck. A very powerful effect. And his cost reduction of instants and sorcerys is not something to overlook. It makes Rewind generate more mana. He may be more of a typical spellslinger build utilizing his cost reduction and looting ability. I feel more cost reduction cards should definitely be added to make our spells as cheap as possible and open up more mana for counterspells when needed. Here are my thoughts on the types of counterspells he wants to run.
Of course there are quite a few instant ans sorcery counterspells to look at as well. How many should we include? Most, if not all of the 2 mana or less counterspells are good options.
CMC 0-1
I'll leave the counterspells that cost more than 3 out, obviously these will be a case by case basis on which will make the cut. Aside from the counterspells, what do you guys think as far as the rest of the deck is concerned? What are some good wincons, should this be primarily spell slinger, or maybe even a tribal wizard tribal subtheme? Thanks for any input you have!
There is one card that works so well with looting effects in red, to see it on a commander would be silly not to include it. Try Alhammarret's Archive to make your commander a card drawing machine.
Also Guile seems really good but you don't get to draw because of its replacement effect, either way Spelljacking is powerful. Torrential Gearhulk can find a home here
Looking for other ways for you to actully win, instead of durdle counter threats. Maybe Runechanter's Pike and Sphinx-Bone Wand? Desertion its worth its weight here, steal anothers wincon.
Spell Burst (This spell loves to eat smaller spells. 2U + X: Counter target spell of mana cost X. Return this to your hand.) Rethink (and on the flip side we have Spell Burst's bigger brother that loves to eat the big spells.)
Patron Wizard deserves a mention here. Baral being a wizard himself helps things. On that token, an Azami, Lady of Scrolls wouldn't go amiss either. Docent of Perfection will eventually give you an army of hard-hitting Wizards. Basically, Wizards as your subtheme will give you ways to win.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Ice Cave No really, here me out on this if your deck is for multiplayer. Its a social tool and if you don't mind doing so, all you got to do is have a few lands that allow you to produce mana of any color. If you want to throw in even a Chromatic Lantern. What ends up happening is another player can counter a spell for you and since you control Ice Cave while you also have Baral, Chief of Compliance you get to loot (draw 1, discard 1). If you want added protection against your stuff being countered by your Ice Cave, throw in Cavern of Souls and Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Both of which I would personally kind of expect would be run in a Baral deck in case of enemy counter spells.
Patron Wizard deserves a mention here. Baral being a wizard himself helps things. On that token, an Azami, Lady of Scrolls wouldn't go amiss either. Docent of Perfection will eventually give you an army of hard-hitting Wizards. Basically, Wizards as your subtheme will give you ways to win.
My mistake I clicked on this from the homepage. I guess you could do Swirl the Mist. But there's gotta be something better that is a repeatable counter.
Given the instant/sorcery theme Disciple of the Ring might work, plus it's a Wizard.
These were the ones I was considering as the high end counterspells along with Force of Will, They pull the most weight with the flexibility they provide. My only question is how many of these should be included (High cmc)? They are better with Baral out for sure.
They are as hard a counterspell lock together as I've ever seen. Also, cycling Decree can counter a Split-Second spell.
I did not think of this interaction when putting the list together. I wanted to use both and the interaction never occurred to me. Definitely going to include both now. Thanks for the synergy.
Spell Burst (This spell loves to eat smaller spells. 2U + X: Counter target spell of mana cost X. Return this to your hand.) Rethink (and on the flip side we have Spell Burst's bigger brother that loves to eat the big spells.)
I was thinking of this list for cost reduction to make the most of our cheap spells and looting capability. Spell Burst and Rethink are actually quite good in this list. They can counter multiple/high cmc cards which is what this format is all about afterall. I will put them in the list.
As far as how many counters are too many counters, what is the consensus on that? I want a decent amount in here, both permanent sources of counters and instants for Baral's reduction. I think adding in a small wizard package is the direction I will take this as well as add in the necessary instant/sorcery spells.
I would only put in the Guile/Decree lock if you have a quick way of finishing the game... as otherwise, those cards together pretty much say, "Stop playing this game" to your opponents.
I want to put him in the 99 in Mizzix of the Izmagnus, which is the queen of cost reduction. Also, RU is a great home for a spell slinging deck. I am not saying he would be a bad commander, but I think he would fit better in the 99. I can't wait to get my hands on a copy.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I would only put in the Guile/Decree lock if you have a quick way of finishing the game... as otherwise, those cards together pretty much say, "Stop playing this game" to your opponents.
I understand that sentiment. I will have ways to close out the game and not just have a million answers and no threats. The Decree/Guile is just another way to end the game anyway. Any opponent that doesn't want to continue is fine to concede. And if they continue, I steal their win conditions. But truthfully, I will have plenty of ways to end it on my own.
Q: I have Decree of Silence in play with no depletion counters, along with Guile, and an opponent plays a spell. Normally the Decree would counter that spell and I'd put a counter on it. However it's my understanding that Guile's ability is a replacement effect, so the spell never actually gets countered. If this is right, does that mean I don't put a counter on the Decree?
A: You're right in the respect that Guile's ability is a replacement effect, but the Decree still gets a counter. Decree actually countering the spell is not the requirement for the depletion counter being added. The ability will trigger and Decree of Silence will try to counter the spell. Guile will replace that with its own “RFG it and you may play it for free” ability. Even though Decree technically didn't counter the spell, the ability triggered and will do as much as it can. Add a depletion counter.
Those buyback cards seem pretty good here. In 1v1 even mind games seems good to act as a pseudo stall. Would be pretty good in combination with one or two more reduction effects.
Also, cycling Decree can counter a Split-Second spell.
Nope.avi
Cycling is still an activated ability. Only things that can counter split second abilities are triggered abilities and certain morph creatures.
Technically, the morph is still a triggered ability. It's just triggered off the morph, which doesn't use the stack at all.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Q: I have Decree of Silence in play with no depletion counters, along with Guile, and an opponent plays a spell. Normally the Decree would counter that spell and I'd put a counter on it. However it's my understanding that Guile's ability is a replacement effect, so the spell never actually gets countered. If this is right, does that mean I don't put a counter on the Decree?
A: You're right in the respect that Guile's ability is a replacement effect, but the Decree still gets a counter. Decree actually countering the spell is not the requirement for the depletion counter being added. The ability will trigger and Decree of Silence will try to counter the spell. Guile will replace that with its own “RFG it and you may play it for free” ability. Even though Decree technically didn't counter the spell, the ability triggered and will do as much as it can. Add a depletion counter.
It looks like this is correct. For some reason I was under the impression that the depletion counter would not get added since it was a replacement effect. I may rethink a few things on them, but they still work well together. I may look at adding some way to recur the decree, or to remove the counters, but it may stray a little from my goal. Thanks for pointing this out.
I have not seen any other ideas with Baral yet and wanted to get some ideas on what is the best way to build him. Mostly, what is the correct amount of counter magic that we want to include in a list such as this? He triggers off of countering spells to loot a card which digs through the deck. A very powerful effect. And his cost reduction of instants and sorcerys is not something to overlook. It makes Rewind generate more mana. He may be more of a typical spellslinger build utilizing his cost reduction and looting ability. I feel more cost reduction cards should definitely be added to make our spells as cheap as possible and open up more mana for counterspells when needed. Here are my thoughts on the types of counterspells he wants to run.
Permanents
Of course there are quite a few instant ans sorcery counterspells to look at as well. How many should we include? Most, if not all of the 2 mana or less counterspells are good options.
CMC 0-1
CMC 2
And many of the CMC 3 counterspells are better with his cost reduction.
CMC 3
I'll leave the counterspells that cost more than 3 out, obviously these will be a case by case basis on which will make the cut. Aside from the counterspells, what do you guys think as far as the rest of the deck is concerned? What are some good wincons, should this be primarily spell slinger, or maybe even a tribal wizard tribal subtheme? Thanks for any input you have!
WBR Alesha's Death Brigade WBR
WWW Brigid the Battlefield Saboteur WWW
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB
Also Guile seems really good but you don't get to draw because of its replacement effect, either way Spelljacking is powerful.
Torrential Gearhulk can find a home here
Looking for other ways for you to actully win, instead of durdle counter threats. Maybe Runechanter's Pike and Sphinx-Bone Wand?
Desertion its worth its weight here, steal anothers wincon.
They are as hard a counterspell lock together as I've ever seen. Also, cycling Decree can counter a Split-Second spell.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
I think the dbag route is mean old spells: Mana Vortex, Land Equilibrium, and Invoke Prejudice!
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Nope.avi
Cycling is still an activated ability. Only things that can counter split second abilities are triggered abilities and certain morph creatures.
Jace's Sanctum
Arcane Melee (I would understand if you didn't run this one)
Metallurgic Summonings (Need I explain?)
Mystic Speculation (When you have Baral and say a Medallion you have U: Scry 3.)
Talrand, Sky SUmmoner
Spell Burst (This spell loves to eat smaller spells. 2U + X: Counter target spell of mana cost X. Return this to your hand.)
Rethink (and on the flip side we have Spell Burst's bigger brother that loves to eat the big spells.)
Archaeomancer, Torrential Gearhulk, Snapcaster Mage, Back from the Brink, Metallurgic Summonings, and Body Double can generate value from your graveyard.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Given that that's banned...
Patron Wizard deserves a mention here. Baral being a wizard himself helps things. On that token, an Azami, Lady of Scrolls wouldn't go amiss either. Docent of Perfection will eventually give you an army of hard-hitting Wizards. Basically, Wizards as your subtheme will give you ways to win.
RGU Yasova UGR
BU Skeleton Ship UB
U Heidar U
U Baral U
R Kari Zev R
My mistake I clicked on this from the homepage. I guess you could do Swirl the Mist. But there's gotta be something better that is a repeatable counter.
Given the instant/sorcery theme Disciple of the Ring might work, plus it's a Wizard.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
These were the ones I was considering as the high end counterspells along with Force of Will, They pull the most weight with the flexibility they provide. My only question is how many of these should be included (High cmc)? They are better with Baral out for sure.
I did not think of this interaction when putting the list together. I wanted to use both and the interaction never occurred to me. Definitely going to include both now. Thanks for the synergy.
I was thinking of this list for cost reduction to make the most of our cheap spells and looting capability. Spell Burst and Rethink are actually quite good in this list. They can counter multiple/high cmc cards which is what this format is all about afterall. I will put them in the list.
As far as how many counters are too many counters, what is the consensus on that? I want a decent amount in here, both permanent sources of counters and instants for Baral's reduction. I think adding in a small wizard package is the direction I will take this as well as add in the necessary instant/sorcery spells.
WBR Alesha's Death Brigade WBR
WWW Brigid the Battlefield Saboteur WWW
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I understand that sentiment. I will have ways to close out the game and not just have a million answers and no threats. The Decree/Guile is just another way to end the game anyway. Any opponent that doesn't want to continue is fine to concede. And if they continue, I steal their win conditions. But truthfully, I will have plenty of ways to end it on my own.
WBR Alesha's Death Brigade WBR
WWW Brigid the Battlefield Saboteur WWW
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB
Those buyback cards seem pretty good here. In 1v1 even mind games seems good to act as a pseudo stall. Would be pretty good in combination with one or two more reduction effects.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Technically, the morph is still a triggered ability. It's just triggered off the morph, which doesn't use the stack at all.
On phasing:
It looks like this is correct. For some reason I was under the impression that the depletion counter would not get added since it was a replacement effect. I may rethink a few things on them, but they still work well together. I may look at adding some way to recur the decree, or to remove the counters, but it may stray a little from my goal. Thanks for pointing this out.
WBR Alesha's Death Brigade WBR
WWW Brigid the Battlefield Saboteur WWW
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB