MTG Salvation

Everyone here seems to agree that Derevi is one of the most busted commanders out there and I'm wondering why? I must admit that I have no one playing it in my meta but I played a Derevi deck for while myself when he just came out and while the deck was good it was not nearly busted. If you look him up on EDHREC i see people play him a lot alongside unfun cards like Stasis and Winter Orb etc. But those cards make any deck that runs them efficiently unfun to play against so you can't really pin that on Derevi. Derevi himself is nigh-unkillable, being able to come back from the command zone at instant speed indefinitly for only 1GWU but then again, it's a 2/3 creature with no build in protection. It will take 11 turns to kill someone with commander damage. 11 turns! Is that really so hard to deal with?

I'm probably missing something but whatever it is, I'm not seeing it.

You are missing something. The tap/untap clause on Derevi makes you effectively immune to Stax Lock components of the deck. It breaks the symmetry of those cards and even allows you to tap down opponents new resources as they become available. With only a few small evasive creatures and a lock piece you can play your deck unimpeded by your stax cards and prevent your opponents from breaking free. It is very oppressive, even though I personally have never played against such a deck.

Also he is immune to commander tax, which is just that much more annoying. (and has "flash")

Winter Orb and cards like it are among the most powerful in the format. They reduce so many resources so effectively. This makes Derevi one of the strongest forms of control. I played a deck like this when she first came out a few years ago. First time I ever got hateful comments on a thread in this forum lol.

To add to what was said above, the tap/untap trigger happens for each creature which deals combat damage to a player. As a result, a token swarm or hate bear army can allow you to cast spells and do things with your mana, then untap it all and do more nasty stuff. You can flat out produce more resources that anyone at the table and use those resources to lock other players out of their resources. It is banned in duel and frowned upon at multiplayer.

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I completely understand where you are coming from. I have the Commander 2013 deck in its out-of-box condition right now as I teach my girlfriend how to play (with 5 different decks rotating) and without a tuned deck, Derevi isn't that scary. however, a focused deck is.

Also, the activated ability can only be Stifled and the like. Normal counterspells don't work. Since the rules committee decided to change how "tucking" works for commanders, Derevi is essentially unstoppable. You pretty much have to play things like Pithing Needle and have ample removal to keep Derevi from taking over a game.

She avoids the Commander tax and is essentially uncounterable. That is on top of that triggered ability which plays directly into mana-denial strategies. The card is ridiculous in a competitive environment and it basically takes tons of player restraint to just avoid it.

I will say this however; in competitive environments, Derevi is an almost-necessary foil to all-in combo decks. It's like playing Stax versus Storm in Vintage.

Quote from XeroxedFool »

Winter Orb and cards like it are among the most powerful in the format. They reduce so many resources so effectively. This makes Derevi one of the strongest forms of control. I played a deck like this when she first came out a few years ago. First time I ever got hateful comments on a thread in this forum lol.

Really? That's a bummer, I generally find that competitive builders comment on competitive decklists and casual builders comment on casual decklists.

As others have said, Derevi is really strong as a stax commander, especially with winter orb/hokori/rising waters. She stills sees a fair amount of play as a more casual commander in my experience, though, since she's got a lot of ways to build around her and she's from an overprinted precon. You've gotta be wary of those Derevi players and try to get a bead on whether they're playing stax or not.

On an urelated note, I've been thinking it'd be kind of interesting to try building Derevi as creatureless, with a bunch of sac outlets so you can twiddle the board at will (for a steep cost). Still OP with winter orb though

It's powerful, but not overly powerful.

Ultimately Magic is a game of resources. You try to assemble yours while denying your opponents.

When we're battling over resources, mana is one of the most important.

Stax is the best strategy for tying up mana resources, and can lead to game states where opponents are locked out of the game.

Derevi is exceptionally efficient at making a good stax strategy stronger by helping break the symmetry of many of the cards already mentioned.

On her own she's ok, but I'll be the first to admit that I saw her and visions of Stasis floated in my head. Stasis where the upkeep is paid by my opponents delicious tears.

Seeing derevi makes me sad I can't play more suppression fields....

Derevi also has many cards that feed off of her without the need to build around it. Willbreker is a prime example of one card being even worse thanks to derevi.

It is trivially easy to break cards that can repeatably untap permanents. While people often point to other heinous cards as synergistic with Derevi when they complain about her, she isn't broken with only other broken cards; The baseline of turning all of your creatures' combat damage against players into an untapped land is incredibly good. Just playing her as your commander grants you an enormous and difficult to disrupt mana advantage over the course of a game, which leads to Derevi players snowballing into an overwhelming board position and winning disproportionately often. Sometimes she just does it way faster because she untapped Grim Monolith or Gaea's Cradle to cast a 6-drop on turn 3.

His ability to simultaneously untap your permanents while tapping down your opponents. Being able too so him into play at any time for 4 mana also sets him apart.

I get that he/she is a strong commander, but the main complaint is that she is too strong as a stax commander. But what about a non-stax deck? If you don't play winter orb, hokori, rising waters and the like but instead cards like spectral force, lux cannon or phyrexian colossus?

The only "blowout" i had in my version was with Mangara. Although one time use, it often allowed you to exile 4+ Permanents in one go if unanswered.

If you're not playing Stax then she's slightly too good, but not unstoppable; just like Leovold, Emissary of Trest without wheels or puzzle boxes.

She also has a few infinite combos (Bloom Tender and a mana altar, for example) and as mentioned she's almost completely impossible to get rid of for good (any decent Derevi deck runs sac outlets to avoid things like Darksteel Mutation), so if you're playing control or playing for the late game you had better get used to her.

Quote from Ertai Planeswalker »

I get that he/she is a strong commander, but the main complaint is that she is too strong as a stax commander. But what about a non-stax deck? If you don't play winter orb, hokori, rising waters and the like but instead cards like spectral force, lux cannon or phyrexian colossus?

The only "blowout" i had in my version was with Mangara. Although one time use, it often allowed you to exile 4+ Permanents in one go if unanswered.

A non-Stax Derevi that capitalizes on the untap triggers has a ton of synergy much like a Karador deck has a ton of synergy with the graveyard. They can both be tough to beat, but nothing like the Stax version.

Ah it is funny looking back on it now. My deck wasn't perfect but for some reason a couple of users felt the need to tear it down. Kinda makes me want to revisit Derevi.

Quote from XeroxedFool »

Ah it is funny looking back on it now. My deck wasn't perfect but for some reason a couple of users felt the need to tear it down. Kinda makes me want to revisit Derevi.

By all means, I probably will too. I designed it back in the day to " cheat" on tapping costs or non-untapping clauses, not as a Stax type deck. I don't think she'll warp any metagame that way.

Derevi is also capable of generating infinite mana with a sac outlet, by untapping mana sources that could then recast her.

Above all, the most annoying part about Derevi (for me) is that she is very difficult to deny, consider she could return to play for 4 mana, especially with the new tuck rule being in place. In the past I'd just shuffle her into opponent's library and delay her, but with the new rule she merely returns to the command zone. I know it's a game where people want to have their legend out, but a legend that cannot be removed and can return at instant speed for low cost is a little too much for my idea of fun.

Derevi USED TO be one of the strongest commanders in EDH thanks mainly to her tap/untap ability (though her other effects did contribute). However, she was severely weakened over a year ago due to the Partial Paris rule change. It took away her consistency and much of her speed, knocking her out of the top rankings. Currently, she's a fairly strong stax (Prison) commander.

Dunno what you all are talking about... She ain't broken in my bird tribal deck. LOL

Quote from gethinsite »

It's powerful, but not overly powerful.

This has been my impression, from the Derevi decks I have played so far. I agree that she is high tier, but I don't feel that she is broken.
If your deck is not tuned to play against competitive decks, or unable to compete with stax then you obviously aren't going to do very well.
But there are other things out there like Ad Nauseam and Druid, that you would probably hate too.

Quote from cyberium_neo »

Derevi is also capable of generating infinite mana with a sac outlet, by untapping mana sources that could then recast her.

Yes, but then what do you do with the infinite mana? Bounce everyone's lands?
That takes time to set up, can be easily disrupted, and requires multiple combo pieces.
I was actually interested in building Derevi because I like the idea of a general you can cast frequently, but the combos available in her colors leave much to be desired imo.

I feel like everyone enjoys different kinds of decks. If you don't like a certain playstyle no ones forcing you to play against it.
Personally, I like challenging decks. I love having the right answer at the right time, and when I don't I like the puzzle it provides. When something unexpected comes up which forces me to go back and tinker with my deck, I love being innovative and squeezing a solution into the 99. I understand my personal preferences will keep me from being competitive against the most highly tuned decks in the format, but I enjoy seeing those decks and playing against them from time to time. Really, those players are just like me, tuning and tinkering in response to other decks in their meta.

I've played Derevi for the last year or so, and she is awesome! If you look at her stats its not impressive, but pounding one player to death with your little army, while locking another down ends games alot faster than you think. The stax side is powerful, but because it takes some setting up it keeps her from being too powerful. If you know what you're playing against, she isn't all that scary, when people tap out, and get caught by a winter orb with their pants down is when you see how powerful the deck can be.

As for the infinite mana thing, if you have infinite mana, chances are you have some kind of a sac outlet, with Derevi alone, you can sac, recast, to tap down the entire table. I've forced many concession just by tapping down all opponents board during upkeep, while my board goes crazy. What makes her particularly powerful is that she enables engines, and is also a means to utilize the infinite mana.

So in conclusion it is as my sig says...

Is something within the rules of the game degenerate though?
I wouldn't sit down to a game of chess and complain about the queen being degenerate.

Quote from Ryujin »

Is something within the rules of the game degenerate though?
I wouldn't sit down to a game of chess and complain about the queen being degenerate.

That's because both players get a queen. You would rightfully feel cheated if you were running your knight tribal chess board for fun (1 king, 7 knights, 8 pawns) when some jerk sat down with an optimized 5-queen-2-knight setup that's been winning all the tournaments lately.