The primary question with this card is whether it's good enough where every player at a table could benefit from having one in play in 80% of conceivable situations. Then we would have game warping a la Sylvan Primordial, Prophet, and Prime Time where the game devolves into "Can I copy/Steal it and thus win?".
Paradox Engine has two arguments against a ban in this regard: First, redundant copies are essentially superfluous to its capacity for nonsense, unlike Prime Time or Sylvan where the advantage was directly proportional to the number of copies controlled/resolved/cloned/etc. Second, if it resolves for the purpose of nonsense, the game will end shortly thereafter, unlike the Prophet's ability to grant overwhelming incremental advantage but still drag out games, leaving time for copy/clone/etc nonsense to occur as everyone scrambled to get their own Prophet on board.
The card is stupid busted and unbalanced for our humble format, but I'd be very surprised if it eats a ban. It's just not that caliber of a card.
EDIT: Mods, give me an over/under odds on how fast this thread moves to banlist discussion. My thoughts on the Engine regardless of its future legality is that I want one for Daretti. I don't have anything specific in mind yet, but I'm certain something broken will come together inevitably.
I am allowed to play bloodchief ascension and mindcrank. which dont require much to outright win me the game with two cards (and only 3 mana)
there are a lot of crazy things that are going to happen because of this card, but the actual infinite thigs are limited by the cast trigger. yes isochron scepter goes infinite, but you have to cast the cards which means you need to draw cards. and you need a spell to exile with scepter plus the rocks/creatures so you are up into the multiple cards going infinite which isnt as big of a deal.
I think this card is awesome. its gonna be fun to play with and im brewing a new deck because of it. however i dont think it will be format warping or require banning. it needs setup to be degenerate. otherwise its just high value.
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I am allowed to play bloodchief ascension and mindcrank. which dont require much to outright win me the game with two cards (and only 3 mana)
there are a lot of crazy things that are going to happen because of this card, but the actual infinite thigs are limited by the cast trigger. yes isochron scepter goes infinite, but you have to cast the cards which means you need to draw cards. and you need a spell to exile with scepter plus the rocks/creatures so you are up into the multiple cards going infinite which isnt as big of a deal.
I think this card is awesome. its gonna be fun to play with and im brewing a new deck because of it. however i dont think it will be format warping or require banning. it needs setup to be degenerate. otherwise its just high value.
Too be fair those combos you mention, cost a lot of mana, and bloodchief ascension actually requires a fair amount of work to get online. Both of those mentioned are slow.
I think its more about how can you break the card into banning than what fun things you can do, looking at all you who broke Griselbrand into getting a ban hammer.
I'm not advocating Paradox Engine isn't strong, because it's ridiculous, but those "omg t3 infinite with 5 specific cards" arguments aren't convincing anyone.
I'm not advocating Paradox Engine isn't strong, because it's ridiculous, but those "omg t3 infinite with 5 specific cards" arguments aren't convincing anyone.
Edit: derped with the quote
I see you Kozilek player trying not to get Paradox Engine on the radar Kozilek might be the best commander to take advantage of this card, as draw is an important ingredient to fuel this card.
But yeah there no point talking about "ban", because there is nobody official actually looking at card power and balance anyway. Go hard boys and girls, have fun with it.
Imagine if WotC used the same principle for Vintage, Modern, Standard...Magic would have died a decade ago.
I KNOW! It is almost like they have a different goal than Vintage, Modern, and Standard. Almost as if they aren't trying to balance a competitive format.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I don't think it's a standout problem card, it's just a midlevel problem card that gets thrown onto the massive pile of midlevel problem cards we already have to deal with. But now I will feel a small percentage less guilty when I destroy all of your mana artifacts with Vandalblast et al, because you could play a paradox engine the next turn and just win.
There are plenty of cards that are just as powerful as this in the format. I think the annoying part is going to be the super long turns it creates as the player is trying to cast the right spells and go through their deck looking for a win condition while everyone else twiddle their thumbs. That's not to say I don't have a deck or two that will use it
So, assuming you aren't planning to break this all to hell by intentionally doing infinite combos and such, how many mana rocks, mana dorks and so forth do you think are required for a deck to reliably get enough value from Paradox Engine to make it a good choice to include in a deck? I'm in the process of assessing that for my decks right now, as I have three copies following the weekend's prereleases and am deciding where to put them. Rhys the Redeemed is obviously going to get one, as it includes lots of mana elves.
Not surprised that there's going to be a 'wait and see' period(official announcement just released). I hope I'm wrong, I really do...but as to borrow one of Goldblum's quotes, "People often get so focused on whether they can, they never stop to think if they should."(yeah, I know it's not an exact quote, but the intent is the same). But, reality will tell. And I will still try to get at least one myself, lol.
So, assuming you aren't planning to break this all to hell by intentionally doing infinite combos and such, how many mana rocks, mana dorks and so forth do you think are required for a deck to reliably get enough value from Paradox Engine to make it a good choice to include in a deck? I'm in the process of assessing that for my decks right now, as I have three copies following the weekend's prereleases and am deciding where to put them. Rhys the Redeemed is obviously going to get one, as it includes lots of mana elves.
That's a good question.
If your general has a tap ability, insta-include.
Otherwise, I think you would have to have 15-ish cards that have tap abilities. These can be mana dorks and mana rocks, but they can also be things like Tradewind Rider and Sensei's Divining Top (cast instants to activate more than once).
Well any deck with dorks or rocks can abuse this. I just put it in my sliver deck too allow another way of swarm which gives me an unlimited tutor cast combo once my mana slivers come out. But there is still alot of staple artifact hate in almost all metas. Though it is the main target when it does come out if someone can get rid of it.
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On it's own, it's literally a five mana blank. It only does work in conjunction with other cards, and even then you need a certain type (mana dorks and rocks) to make it obscene. Imagine, for instance, if I'm just casting an Inspiration on your declare attacks, using Engine as a Vitalize...that's not so scary, right?
It's pretty reasonable, for five mana, to have something that only works great with certain other cards on board and a steady stream of spells to cast. That's a lot of hoops to jump through.
Paradox Engine has two arguments against a ban in this regard: First, redundant copies are essentially superfluous to its capacity for nonsense, unlike Prime Time or Sylvan where the advantage was directly proportional to the number of copies controlled/resolved/cloned/etc. Second, if it resolves for the purpose of nonsense, the game will end shortly thereafter, unlike the Prophet's ability to grant overwhelming incremental advantage but still drag out games, leaving time for copy/clone/etc nonsense to occur as everyone scrambled to get their own Prophet on board.
The card is stupid busted and unbalanced for our humble format, but I'd be very surprised if it eats a ban. It's just not that caliber of a card.
EDIT: Mods, give me an over/under odds on how fast this thread moves to banlist discussion. My thoughts on the Engine regardless of its future legality is that I want one for Daretti. I don't have anything specific in mind yet, but I'm certain something broken will come together inevitably.
Thats a 5 card combo for infinite mana. we already have combos that can do that with 2 cards.
Deadeye navigator and palichron are (almost always) infinite mana with 2 cards
I am allowed to play sanguine bond and exquisite blood which outright win me the game with 2 cards.
I am allowed to play bloodchief ascension and mindcrank. which dont require much to outright win me the game with two cards (and only 3 mana)
there are a lot of crazy things that are going to happen because of this card, but the actual infinite thigs are limited by the cast trigger. yes isochron scepter goes infinite, but you have to cast the cards which means you need to draw cards. and you need a spell to exile with scepter plus the rocks/creatures so you are up into the multiple cards going infinite which isnt as big of a deal.
I think this card is awesome. its gonna be fun to play with and im brewing a new deck because of it. however i dont think it will be format warping or require banning. it needs setup to be degenerate. otherwise its just high value.
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Battle Hymn, Manamorphose all work nicely in a storm type deck, so adding in some extra cards in Isochron Scepter and Paradox Engine to go infinite could be worth it.
It's a three card combo, he/she was just giving an example of getting a turn 3 kill with some fast artifact mana.
I don't disagree however, plenty of cheap infinite combos in the format.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
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Sure but,
T1: Land, Sol Ring + Mana Vault into Basalt Monolith
T2: Land, Rings of Brighthearth
Is infinite mana. With less cards.
I'm not advocating Paradox Engine isn't strong, because it's ridiculous, but those "omg t3 infinite with 5 specific cards" arguments aren't convincing anyone.
Edit: derped with the quote
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
You are referring to everyone who played with Griselbrand
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But yeah there no point talking about "ban", because there is nobody official actually looking at card power and balance anyway. Go hard boys and girls, have fun with it.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I never got to play with Griselbrand. I built the deck but by the time I could get to a store that played EDH, he was already banned.
BWREDGAR MARKOV VAMPIRESBWR
That is because its ridiculously broken. It was allowed for a short time, but showed just how terrible it was for the game in a short time.
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That's a good question.
If your general has a tap ability, insta-include.
Otherwise, I think you would have to have 15-ish cards that have tap abilities. These can be mana dorks and mana rocks, but they can also be things like Tradewind Rider and Sensei's Divining Top (cast instants to activate more than once).
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On it's own, it's literally a five mana blank. It only does work in conjunction with other cards, and even then you need a certain type (mana dorks and rocks) to make it obscene. Imagine, for instance, if I'm just casting an Inspiration on your declare attacks, using Engine as a Vitalize...that's not so scary, right?
It's pretty reasonable, for five mana, to have something that only works great with certain other cards on board and a steady stream of spells to cast. That's a lot of hoops to jump through.
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