I have a friend that has always given me grief and complained that my turns take too long. At times, I have thought he was right but most of the time I have concluded he was being irrational. I understand that nobody likes waiting but one of the most important skills in Magic is sequencing. I would argue the more options you have and the more resources you have during the course of a turn, there are more things to be considered. I play Daretti, Scrap Savant and yes, given the amount of artifacts I have and the recursion involved, it can be more challenging to play but also more rewarding.
Last night my team went 4-0 and he partially seemed butt hurt but at least he's consistent in his criticism. I thought table Magic was supposed to be fun, it's casual Magic after all. He sort of has the arrogant personality type but I would say his decks are straight forward creature decks that aren't difficult to pilot. For the multiplayer Commander players, do you put that MUCH emphasis on time, also is he being insensitive or am I being overly sensitive? He also takes indirect jabs at people which gets old. There is such thing as good etiquette in Magic, no?
Well, as long as you're playing ktichen table magic with your friends, I'd think good practice magic would be to not leave your friends waiting for extensive amounts of time, so pick up the pace whereever you can. However, your friends ought to cut you some slack, especially if you're not intentionally taking long turns.
Maybe change your deck from time to time so you have a faster (less complicated) alternative?
It really depends on how long your turns are actually taking. There is such a thing as good etiquette in magic, though you'll find what exactly qualifies as good varies wildly from person to person. I'd recommend looking into how long your turns actually take during an average game, and from there determine if you're playing at a reasonable speed.
It's important not to rush a player. Magic is complicated, especially multiplayer EDH. I try to help players out by reminding them about public information that is on the board, or cards that have already been revealed to everyone if they are currently unrevealed to assist a player in decision making so turns don't take as long.
However, I think if one player is taking turns that on average are significantly longer than other player's turns, it a can be less fun to play against that player.
This is especially frustrating if a player is playing multiple turns (i.e. a deck that runs multiple Time Warp, effects, or continues to recur Walk the Aeons) , or their turn is taking a long time because they continue to recur the same over multiple times.
Although today I was playing Lighthouse Chronologist and I manged to get him to level 7 in a 4 player game. Some of the players were groaning and sighing about how I was taking too long, but I felt it was unwarranted and they were just being poor sports. The extra turns I was taking weren't long. Additionally Lighthouse Chronologist is the only card in the deck that takes extra turns, I have no ways to recur it, and considering I had to spend 1UUUUUUUU to get the effect over the course of more than one turn cycle, I didn't feel it was unfair (my general was Kira, Great Glass-Spinner so it made it a little easier, but still).
I will often give a player the benefit of the doubt when it comes to taking long turns if they are piloting a deck they haven't played in a while, or are testing a new deck. But these 3 to 4 minute turns are frustrating to play against at times. It's especially annoying if people are spending time thinking about decisions they could have made while it wasn't their turn.
I am the type of player where if I play Sakura-Tribe Elder early game, I will sacrifice him earlier than waiting until right before my turn if it is clear that I'm not going to be chump blocking with him (I might even say "hey guys, I'm sacrificing Steve early to save us some time, if someone attacks me until my next turn, can we assume I would have chumped with him). Perhaps I'm impatient, but I think doing things like this is helpful and makes turns take less long. Players that crack for fetches right before the beginning of their turn every time is time consuming and unnecessary and it is even worse when they had all that time and they still haven't decided what land they want to get.
We have one friend that takes very long turns, regardless of what the game is we are playing. So naturally there is a lot of ball busting about it. We've all been friends since at least middle school, if not longer, and to this day he still takes an eternity. Bu we would have it any other way.
That all said, is this one person giving you a hard time, or is it the whole group at times? Can you try and map out your turn mentally before your turn starts so that you don't spend excessive time thinking?
I try to be aware of how long my turns take. There's a reason I don't play Mizzix storm very often anymore.
That said, my group is usually pretty understanding if there's a complicated board to be navigated, or a bunch of math to do. The only time we really harp on one another is when people take long turns without doing anything.
Also, things that bother me even though they shouldn't and I'm terrible for letting them: People who have to re-read what their cards do every time they draw them, then study the board for five minutes to figure out how the card they just drew interacts with it. Come on. You didn't read the goddamn card when you put it in your deck?! UGH.
Commander was designed to be a social format in which all the players have a good time. After the first couple times one observes a complicated recursion loop or extra turns loop or repeated-untap loop, it tends to not be very interesting, and most players get bored watching someone take long turns, or multiple turns. Boredom does not result in a good time. Daretti can be one of the worse offenders of this sort, especially when one combines artifact recursion with Clock of Omens and other untap effects. You might want to consider alternating decks so some of the time your turns are a lot less complicated.
For the record, I have been accused of similar things when running decks including Seedborn Muse and lots of instant and flash effects. Some people get bored when you are essentially taking a turn during each other player's turn. This has resulted in my not playing decks with that feature more than once a night (which is easy for me, as I have a lot of decks).
Also we're talking about kitchen table Magic, right? Consider: what is the objective of kitchen table Magic? Is your goal to pwn some n00bs and 4-0 all night? Are you grinding to test competitive decks for sanctioned events? Or just having fun with your friends? Is their goal the same as yours?
In most kitchen table circuits, the main goal is for everyone to have fun. If some people aren't having fun, they may not want to play with you anymore. If you're playing a 4-man game and your turns are consistently taking 50% of the total time (instead of around 25%), then you're monopolizing the time and keeping everyone else waiting. It means other people get to play less than you. It means games overall take longer, so your group can get fewer games finished in a session. Over time that's going to irritate people and fail the "fun" objective of multiplayer magic.
Yes, it is important to take the time to evaluate decision trees and sequence plays well. But some people still do this faster than others. I know players who can storm through their deck and win in 5 minutes. Others take 20 minutes to finish the same sort of combo chain. People tend to be more forgiving of the 5-minute player playing solitaire. The guy who takes 20 minutes and tanks over every dig spell... maybe he should sleeve up a different deck.
If you're constantly monopolizing the time and your friends are unhappy about it, consider taking measures to speed up your play (e.g. cracking fetches and spinning Top earlier, planning your turns in advance where possible, playing a deck that requires less careful sequencing).
I am always very cognizant of how long my turns take and will occasionally take bad lines of play simply because I rushed a decision a bit. I would rather make those mistakes than the alternative of boring people or dragging the game out. That said, there are some turns that take longer and people should cut you some slack when there are complicated lines of play involved.
Because of the lower risk of mistakes slow players actually have an "unfair" advantage when everyone else is making an effort to play quickly and that may cause some resentment as well.
I'm a simple guy; do you take a lot of time on your turn and it brings you a lot closer to winning or even win you the game? Go ahead.
But if i see you crafting dozens of tutors and extra turns into an endless loop of agony that wont win you the game, my friend, you will annoy me.
Plus, i'll judge based on your deck. Elfball untaps, recursion/reanimation durdle, ... some decks just require time to do what they do, so i'm fine. Draw & Go players critizising those would be more of a pain in the elbow, if you ask me.
I have a friend who plays Mishra Eggs. The deck has two cards that win, Tendrils of Agony and Grapeshot. In order to kill 3 opponents, he needs to cast 120 spells to win with Grapeshot. The deck takes a 30 minute turn when it tries to win.
It is long and boring, but I don't complain because he casts those 120 spells quickly.
I also play against Daretti. That player knows his decision trees so well, that his turns are the shortest. He sees the end result way before any of the rest of us.
When you have a complicated deck with difficult decision trees, your job is to know the deck perfectly, and to know which decision trees to use when. You can't consider every possibility on every turn - you need to know what you need to do to win.
I play against a Karador, Ghost Chieftain combo player that takes way too long to cast his tutors. When I play my deck, I know what I need to get right away because I know my deck perfectly.
Sour/Salty players can be irritating. Being rushed isn't fun. But if you are consistently taking the longest turns, you need to find a way to play faster.
As an aside, let's refrain from using the expression "butt hurt".
The Command Zone Podcast does an episode all about how to speed up your turns for just this reason. I think typically, unless the board state is very complex, if someone complains that you are taking too long its because you probably are. I hate saying that because I know that I'm often the person who is taking too long and I don't even think I take unusually long turns. In fact I think they are very average but that said I've still found ways to speed up my play by changing the way I sac, tutor, draw, etc. I will declare my actions and pass or whatever if that's what it takes.
Honestly, taking faster turns in some cases has cost me games I think I should have won. That really sucks but I think overall its worth it.
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Listening to one person's side of the story is not an adequate substitute for being a fly on the wall, but it should be rare for a turn to last more than twenty seconds, thirty if there's a lot things that need to be resolved in the right order. Players who frequently need more than that are usually glued to their phone or some other type of distraction during the other players' turns so when theirs comes around they need to look at how the board has changed, look at their hands, sometimes do a bunch of mental math, and only then finally start doing things. You should always have a plan before you untap, even if it does sometimes change because of a good top deck or something the player before you does. Slow players also tend to do every single step of everything before saying "pass," when something saying something like "crack windswept for Savannah, cast Green Sun's for Dryad Arbor, pass" and then fishing out the cards would have been an acceptable shortcut.
Yep, I retired my Daretti because of the long turns. Wheeling and casting scrap mastery just sucked for everyone and therefore for me as well. The idea is cool though.
The only thing taking longer end turns was my melek storm deck.
Your turn can be short, but last a long time because you are a slow player. How often do people sit and stare and end up doing nothing? Or take too long fumbling around with dice or drawing cards or shuffling. Or talking and not completing their turn? Or count over and over again? Or look at graveyards?
Your turn can be long, but you can be a fast player. I am a very fast player and the only time my turns last a long time is when I'm passing priority or activating lots of abilities or completing triggers very quickly and waiting for opponents to response.
Lastly, just because you have more decisions to make does not allow you more time to decide. You should not be allowed more time just because you feel as if your deck is more "complicated". Anyone playing slowly, plays slow because they are slow not because the deck is "hard".
So people in my playgroup level the opposite claim against me: that I'm "impatient." Which I personally think is poppycock, and here's why.
I am of the school of thought that you should be planning your turn during your opponents'. You should be able to formulate a few lines of play based on what's on the table and the resources you have available, and then commit to a line (with minor adjustments) once your untap rolls around.
If you can't? There are two possible explanations. 1) You are being indecisive: in which case I tell you to either learn the interactions of your deck better, or to flip a coin and move on. 2) You aren't paying attention: in which case you've earned my ire and I call you on it, tell you to put the phone away, etc. If you've checked out from the table on anything that isn't your turn, you're disrespecting the other players - it's basic etiquette.
Even if you claim that your deck has "more interaction," as the poster above me said, that doesn't grant you more leeway. You should always know what the board state is, know what you have available, and know how the two interact. In a four-player pod, you're given the space of 3 extra turns to do this. This isn't hard.
</rant>
(But to the meat of your question, although your friend's criticisms do sound valid, it would also better him to work on his delivery. You can point stuff like this out without being prickly - and if I sounded as such here, apologies.)
The one thing I've noticed about my own local EDH gamers. The ones that have or used to play constructed magic, be it standard or another format; take resonable turn lengths, maybe they get long twords the end of the game, but it's nothing out of the ordinary.
The players who have never played anything except for EDH are the ones who take the long turns. They draw a clone and then cast it, then start looking around to find what creature they want to copy. They go to combat and then sit in the attack step for ages thinking about who can be atatcked and not block favorably. They just set their hand down and don't think about playing instants or making a plan for what to do next turn.
Now, I'm pretty patient, so it doesn't bother. My pet peeve is when somebody takes 10+ minutes on a single spell, usually something like Primal Surge and it's never because of the actual spell which only takes a minute, it's because of all the damn ETB triggers having to be put onto the stack and players having to respond.
I do think if you want to speed up your game, the best things you can do are 1.) THINK about what you are going to do on your turn while your opponents are taking their turns. 2.) Play some non-EDH magic, be it standard, draft, pauper, w/e. It really does help you see plays quickly when you have fewer options.
I am of the school of thought that you should be planning your turn during your opponents'. You should be able to formulate a few lines of play based on what's on the table and the resources you have available, and then commit to a line (with minor adjustments) once your untap rolls around.
If you can't? There are two possible explanations. 1) You are being indecisive: in which case I tell you to either learn the interactions of your deck better, or to flip a coin and move on. 2) You aren't paying attention: in which case you've earned my ire and I call you on it, tell you to put the phone away, etc. If you've checked out from the table on anything that isn't your turn, you're disrespecting the other players - it's basic etiquette.
Allow me to add a third possible explanation - some jerk dropped Teferi's Puzzle Box, so you can't really plan. Of course, then my plan becomes "hurt the jerk with Puzzle Box," but I still have to figure out how to do it after my draw. /rant - sorry, I really loathe that card (especially in combo with Leovold). I also am a firm believer in planning your turn ahead, and that card makes it really hard to do so.
For some time, my brother believed my words about his slow play were mine alone. Early on, our friend shared the same sentiment but never let it be known. Ten years later, those words were his new playgroups; some ten years afterwards, his new friends stated the same thing.
It is not confusion, nor lack of paying attention. He consistently takes account of others' decks and his own with every game development. It is frustrating, but a talk gets him accelerating his assessments, conclusions and play. I learned to use his method but with obvious ataraxia...wearing headphones while assessing characters, habits, developments, decks and strategies.
If your playgroup believes you are taking long and tells you, fix the issue by using the different strategies others have posted.
For quite some time I ran a Jhoira time warp theme'ed deck, and even re-created it recently. The deck was originally loaded with permission, but always had a plethora of spell tutor/recursion and almost every possible time warp effect that is legal in EDH.
Since I spend a lot of time fiddling with my own decklists and goldfishing, I'm more than familiar with the possible plays that my deck(s) can take. So when people started to complain about my time warp deck taking "too long," even if it was taking "too long" to just win the game, I actually started keeping a timer running on my phone for comparison.
Since most of my time warps were treated like explore, and I didn't waste a tutor unless I already knew what I wanted, these "too long" turns were actually very short, and it was just impatient opponents who didn't like what my deck was doing. Most of the time I was able to resolve multiple turns (even when I was not winning) faster than my opponents would cultivate and attack correctly. Once I started showing them that I was timing myself, and that most of the green/x decks took way more time land-ramping and doing craterhoof/attack math, the argument stopped completely.
Now there is a difference from piloting a deck you are familiar with, and a new creation. I always recommend goldfishing a new deck so you know the ideal plays, land-fetching needs, and tutor targets. If it is a combo deck, then you should probably find a closer friend and explain to them that you need help testing so they understand that some turns may take a while. I've exposed a few of my closer friends to my experimental storm decks, and good lord some of those turns take an eternity to figure out. But the more I play them, the faster I will be able to identify the path(s) to victory. Test more!
Nothing against OP because I don't know the full story but in general...
If you're taking a much longer time then everyone else on average turns, that's something you as that person should work on.
My only real pet peeve with edh is when someone takes forever on their turn, every turn. Or better yet, taking an insane amount of time on everyone's turn as well because seedborn or other mechanics like it.
Litterally had turns where I would take a minute, then hear that yisan player go "in response to your end step" before proceeding to take 5-10 minutes, then doing it again and again.
If everyone is on their cellphone, they're clearly not having a good time. Especially if they're mentioning it.
I know I'm not the best judge because I like to make my turns quick and not think of every. Possible. Outcome. Ever. But this is edh, casual. So unless money is involved it's a poor excuse to take an exceedingly long turn.
I suppose it depends highly on your meta too. If everyone does this and they find it fun, that's one thing. But if everyone but you is dropping a land, summoning a creature, maybe attacking and their done in two minutes... being that 10 minute guy isn't a good idea
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I tested my latest tune of Yidris last night. It was mainly 1v1 but I was happy to see that he can be utterly broken. I have a control build with no combo finish. So after submerge, snuff out, murderous cut, snap, etc...there are very few relevant permanents on the board. In fact, I'd say that Yidris is one of the most fun Commanders I've built and that's considering I have derevi stax, zur stax, gitrog control/combo, leovold elfball, scion reanimator, teeg hatebear, azami, narset, among others..(I love control/stax)..
..but even playing fast my opponents can't keep up. If they aren't paying 100% attention then I get asked "why'd you draw?", "how'd you untap that?", "haven't you cascaded already"...it's very annoying. My friends don't have cell phones out or TVs on or any of that distracting non-sense and I still move too fast. Why so fast? Why do I flip and announce and tap and cast so fast? Because I was (am) accused of taking long turns. Well, there's like a *****load of spells I'm casting, like, get with the picture? When ppl are taking their turns I am constantly updating my potential plays. IDK, I could start a thread on attentiveness but I'd lose half of you.
/endrant
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Last night my team went 4-0 and he partially seemed butt hurt but at least he's consistent in his criticism. I thought table Magic was supposed to be fun, it's casual Magic after all. He sort of has the arrogant personality type but I would say his decks are straight forward creature decks that aren't difficult to pilot. For the multiplayer Commander players, do you put that MUCH emphasis on time, also is he being insensitive or am I being overly sensitive? He also takes indirect jabs at people which gets old. There is such thing as good etiquette in Magic, no?
Maybe change your deck from time to time so you have a faster (less complicated) alternative?
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
WUBRGReaper King - Superfriends
WUBRGChild of Alara - The Nauseating Aurora
WUBSharuum the Hegemon - Christmas In Prison
WUBZur the Enchanter - Ow My Face
WRJor Kadeen, the Prevailer - Snow Goats
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden - International Goblin All Purpose Recycling Facility Number 12
WGSaffi Eriksdotter - Saffi Combosdotter
UPatron of the Moon - The Age of Aquarius
BHorobi, Death's Wail - Bring Out Your Dead
GSachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Sneks
It's important not to rush a player. Magic is complicated, especially multiplayer EDH. I try to help players out by reminding them about public information that is on the board, or cards that have already been revealed to everyone if they are currently unrevealed to assist a player in decision making so turns don't take as long.
However, I think if one player is taking turns that on average are significantly longer than other player's turns, it a can be less fun to play against that player.
This is especially frustrating if a player is playing multiple turns (i.e. a deck that runs multiple Time Warp, effects, or continues to recur Walk the Aeons) , or their turn is taking a long time because they continue to recur the same over multiple times.
Although today I was playing Lighthouse Chronologist and I manged to get him to level 7 in a 4 player game. Some of the players were groaning and sighing about how I was taking too long, but I felt it was unwarranted and they were just being poor sports. The extra turns I was taking weren't long. Additionally Lighthouse Chronologist is the only card in the deck that takes extra turns, I have no ways to recur it, and considering I had to spend 1UUUUUUUU to get the effect over the course of more than one turn cycle, I didn't feel it was unfair (my general was Kira, Great Glass-Spinner so it made it a little easier, but still).
I will often give a player the benefit of the doubt when it comes to taking long turns if they are piloting a deck they haven't played in a while, or are testing a new deck. But these 3 to 4 minute turns are frustrating to play against at times. It's especially annoying if people are spending time thinking about decisions they could have made while it wasn't their turn.
I am the type of player where if I play Sakura-Tribe Elder early game, I will sacrifice him earlier than waiting until right before my turn if it is clear that I'm not going to be chump blocking with him (I might even say "hey guys, I'm sacrificing Steve early to save us some time, if someone attacks me until my next turn, can we assume I would have chumped with him). Perhaps I'm impatient, but I think doing things like this is helpful and makes turns take less long. Players that crack for fetches right before the beginning of their turn every time is time consuming and unnecessary and it is even worse when they had all that time and they still haven't decided what land they want to get.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
That all said, is this one person giving you a hard time, or is it the whole group at times? Can you try and map out your turn mentally before your turn starts so that you don't spend excessive time thinking?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
That said, my group is usually pretty understanding if there's a complicated board to be navigated, or a bunch of math to do. The only time we really harp on one another is when people take long turns without doing anything.
/rant
For the record, I have been accused of similar things when running decks including Seedborn Muse and lots of instant and flash effects. Some people get bored when you are essentially taking a turn during each other player's turn. This has resulted in my not playing decks with that feature more than once a night (which is easy for me, as I have a lot of decks).
Also we're talking about kitchen table Magic, right? Consider: what is the objective of kitchen table Magic? Is your goal to pwn some n00bs and 4-0 all night? Are you grinding to test competitive decks for sanctioned events? Or just having fun with your friends? Is their goal the same as yours?
In most kitchen table circuits, the main goal is for everyone to have fun. If some people aren't having fun, they may not want to play with you anymore. If you're playing a 4-man game and your turns are consistently taking 50% of the total time (instead of around 25%), then you're monopolizing the time and keeping everyone else waiting. It means other people get to play less than you. It means games overall take longer, so your group can get fewer games finished in a session. Over time that's going to irritate people and fail the "fun" objective of multiplayer magic.
Yes, it is important to take the time to evaluate decision trees and sequence plays well. But some people still do this faster than others. I know players who can storm through their deck and win in 5 minutes. Others take 20 minutes to finish the same sort of combo chain. People tend to be more forgiving of the 5-minute player playing solitaire. The guy who takes 20 minutes and tanks over every dig spell... maybe he should sleeve up a different deck.
If you're constantly monopolizing the time and your friends are unhappy about it, consider taking measures to speed up your play (e.g. cracking fetches and spinning Top earlier, planning your turns in advance where possible, playing a deck that requires less careful sequencing).
Because of the lower risk of mistakes slow players actually have an "unfair" advantage when everyone else is making an effort to play quickly and that may cause some resentment as well.
But if i see you crafting dozens of tutors and extra turns into an endless loop of agony that wont win you the game, my friend, you will annoy me.
Plus, i'll judge based on your deck. Elfball untaps, recursion/reanimation durdle, ... some decks just require time to do what they do, so i'm fine. Draw & Go players critizising those would be more of a pain in the elbow, if you ask me.
It is long and boring, but I don't complain because he casts those 120 spells quickly.
I also play against Daretti. That player knows his decision trees so well, that his turns are the shortest. He sees the end result way before any of the rest of us.
When you have a complicated deck with difficult decision trees, your job is to know the deck perfectly, and to know which decision trees to use when. You can't consider every possibility on every turn - you need to know what you need to do to win.
I play against a Karador, Ghost Chieftain combo player that takes way too long to cast his tutors. When I play my deck, I know what I need to get right away because I know my deck perfectly.
Sour/Salty players can be irritating. Being rushed isn't fun. But if you are consistently taking the longest turns, you need to find a way to play faster.
As an aside, let's refrain from using the expression "butt hurt".
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Honestly, taking faster turns in some cases has cost me games I think I should have won. That really sucks but I think overall its worth it.
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The only thing taking longer end turns was my melek storm deck.
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
RWUBruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludovic's Opus Equipments Decklist
WBAthreos, God of Passage Reanimate/Goodstuff Decklist
Your turn can be short, but last a long time because you are a slow player. How often do people sit and stare and end up doing nothing? Or take too long fumbling around with dice or drawing cards or shuffling. Or talking and not completing their turn? Or count over and over again? Or look at graveyards?
Your turn can be long, but you can be a fast player. I am a very fast player and the only time my turns last a long time is when I'm passing priority or activating lots of abilities or completing triggers very quickly and waiting for opponents to response.
Lastly, just because you have more decisions to make does not allow you more time to decide. You should not be allowed more time just because you feel as if your deck is more "complicated". Anyone playing slowly, plays slow because they are slow not because the deck is "hard".
I am of the school of thought that you should be planning your turn during your opponents'. You should be able to formulate a few lines of play based on what's on the table and the resources you have available, and then commit to a line (with minor adjustments) once your untap rolls around.
If you can't? There are two possible explanations. 1) You are being indecisive: in which case I tell you to either learn the interactions of your deck better, or to flip a coin and move on. 2) You aren't paying attention: in which case you've earned my ire and I call you on it, tell you to put the phone away, etc. If you've checked out from the table on anything that isn't your turn, you're disrespecting the other players - it's basic etiquette.
Even if you claim that your deck has "more interaction," as the poster above me said, that doesn't grant you more leeway. You should always know what the board state is, know what you have available, and know how the two interact. In a four-player pod, you're given the space of 3 extra turns to do this. This isn't hard.
</rant>
(But to the meat of your question, although your friend's criticisms do sound valid, it would also better him to work on his delivery. You can point stuff like this out without being prickly - and if I sounded as such here, apologies.)
If you give someone a deck to borrow, don't give a complicated one.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
The players who have never played anything except for EDH are the ones who take the long turns. They draw a clone and then cast it, then start looking around to find what creature they want to copy. They go to combat and then sit in the attack step for ages thinking about who can be atatcked and not block favorably. They just set their hand down and don't think about playing instants or making a plan for what to do next turn.
Now, I'm pretty patient, so it doesn't bother. My pet peeve is when somebody takes 10+ minutes on a single spell, usually something like Primal Surge and it's never because of the actual spell which only takes a minute, it's because of all the damn ETB triggers having to be put onto the stack and players having to respond.
I do think if you want to speed up your game, the best things you can do are 1.) THINK about what you are going to do on your turn while your opponents are taking their turns. 2.) Play some non-EDH magic, be it standard, draft, pauper, w/e. It really does help you see plays quickly when you have fewer options.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
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EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
It is not confusion, nor lack of paying attention. He consistently takes account of others' decks and his own with every game development. It is frustrating, but a talk gets him accelerating his assessments, conclusions and play. I learned to use his method but with obvious ataraxia...wearing headphones while assessing characters, habits, developments, decks and strategies.
If your playgroup believes you are taking long and tells you, fix the issue by using the different strategies others have posted.
Keep brewing.
Since I spend a lot of time fiddling with my own decklists and goldfishing, I'm more than familiar with the possible plays that my deck(s) can take. So when people started to complain about my time warp deck taking "too long," even if it was taking "too long" to just win the game, I actually started keeping a timer running on my phone for comparison.
Since most of my time warps were treated like explore, and I didn't waste a tutor unless I already knew what I wanted, these "too long" turns were actually very short, and it was just impatient opponents who didn't like what my deck was doing. Most of the time I was able to resolve multiple turns (even when I was not winning) faster than my opponents would cultivate and attack correctly. Once I started showing them that I was timing myself, and that most of the green/x decks took way more time land-ramping and doing craterhoof/attack math, the argument stopped completely.
Now there is a difference from piloting a deck you are familiar with, and a new creation. I always recommend goldfishing a new deck so you know the ideal plays, land-fetching needs, and tutor targets. If it is a combo deck, then you should probably find a closer friend and explain to them that you need help testing so they understand that some turns may take a while. I've exposed a few of my closer friends to my experimental storm decks, and good lord some of those turns take an eternity to figure out. But the more I play them, the faster I will be able to identify the path(s) to victory. Test more!
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
If you're taking a much longer time then everyone else on average turns, that's something you as that person should work on.
My only real pet peeve with edh is when someone takes forever on their turn, every turn. Or better yet, taking an insane amount of time on everyone's turn as well because seedborn or other mechanics like it.
Litterally had turns where I would take a minute, then hear that yisan player go "in response to your end step" before proceeding to take 5-10 minutes, then doing it again and again.
If everyone is on their cellphone, they're clearly not having a good time. Especially if they're mentioning it.
I know I'm not the best judge because I like to make my turns quick and not think of every. Possible. Outcome. Ever. But this is edh, casual. So unless money is involved it's a poor excuse to take an exceedingly long turn.
I suppose it depends highly on your meta too. If everyone does this and they find it fun, that's one thing. But if everyone but you is dropping a land, summoning a creature, maybe attacking and their done in two minutes... being that 10 minute guy isn't a good idea
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
/rant
I tested my latest tune of Yidris last night. It was mainly 1v1 but I was happy to see that he can be utterly broken. I have a control build with no combo finish. So after submerge, snuff out, murderous cut, snap, etc...there are very few relevant permanents on the board. In fact, I'd say that Yidris is one of the most fun Commanders I've built and that's considering I have derevi stax, zur stax, gitrog control/combo, leovold elfball, scion reanimator, teeg hatebear, azami, narset, among others..(I love control/stax)..
..but even playing fast my opponents can't keep up. If they aren't paying 100% attention then I get asked "why'd you draw?", "how'd you untap that?", "haven't you cascaded already"...it's very annoying. My friends don't have cell phones out or TVs on or any of that distracting non-sense and I still move too fast. Why so fast? Why do I flip and announce and tap and cast so fast? Because I was (am) accused of taking long turns. Well, there's like a *****load of spells I'm casting, like, get with the picture? When ppl are taking their turns I am constantly updating my potential plays. IDK, I could start a thread on attentiveness but I'd lose half of you.
/endrant