Like the title asks, what do people consider the minimum number of swamps required to support a Cabal Coffers? On a related note, how many copies of a basic land are too few to run Extraplanar Lens?
I'd like to hear what the community thinks. Thanks for your input!
I'm wondering the same thing about Coffers myself, since you can't always have Urborg. I would not run Lens outside of a monocolored deck period, given the inherent risk in exiling a land and the fact that it doesn't play nice with your non-basics.
For Cabal Coffers, as many Swamps as you can plus Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if it's going to be a mana-hungry mono-black deck. And whatever basic land ramp you can use. In my mono black deck most of my utility lands serve a very important function to the deck (some of them are even for ramping). If I consider a non-Swamp land for that deck, it really has to be worth the slot. But in general I'd say the minimum is somewhere between 20-25 in mono-black depending on your abilities to get them into play. Just depends on what else the deck is doing and what utility lands are needed.
For Extraplanar Lens, people typically use Snow basics to avoid giving people running normal basics the extra mana. But if everybody in your meta runs Snow basics, do the opposite and use normal basics, of course. This one also depends on your color and ability to ramp to replace the land exiled. I would expect somebody to blow this up as soon as possible if I played it. Therefore the way I think of minimums is as if I need to drop this on the battlefield and tap my remaining lands right away for some blow-out play. If I have 6 forests, tap 3 for this and exile one of the tapped ones, I have 3 forests that will tap for 6 green mana, which is no gain whatsoever. If I have 10 forests, I'll have 7 tapping for 14. Do you see how it's only an incremental gain immediately after you drop it and has to survive for its value? This is why many players shy away from using the Lens. For this one I suggest doing the math of how important it is to you late-game (because it's no good early-game and so-so mid-game) and how much benefit you can get out of it then based on how many lands you'll probably have. Include as a factor whether you run mana rocks you'll be able to pay it's casting cost with instead of lands.
If these questions are for a mono-black deck there are betteroptions than the Lens.
I'm wondering the same thing about Coffers myself, since you can't always have Urborg. I would not run Lens outside of a monocolored deck period, given the inherent risk in exiling a land and the fact that it doesn't play nice with your non-basics.
Sureyoucan. I agree wholeheartedly on the second part, though. I take it even a step further and wouldn't personally play it outside of mono green.
I am generally in or close to the 20 mark. I have occasionally run coffers in a multicolored deck with less than 20 swamps but in those you will see a heavy presence of dual lands that are swamps and fetchlands with an unbalanced land count favoring swamps.
When running a mono black deck, I still usually try to aim for 25ish swamps. The important thing to consider there is that you wont always have coffers (just not get it or it gets answered) so I try to still run plenty of utility lands outside of coffers.
Lens - I dont run it myself because I dont like the negative tempo it gives when it is answered. It works a lot better in combo tactics where you drop lens the turn you plan to combo off so its not a problem then. I dont run combo and I think for fair decks that dont run in combo environments its a heavy burden to accept that negative land drop with its being removed.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I do a happy dance every time this is played when Im piloting mono black. I always take the offer as no land card outside Gaea's Cradle is going to beat the mana production I'll get from Coffers.
With Lens, you just play monocolored with snow-covered lands.
With Coffers, I'm more a fan of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but that said, I never play it in a deck with more than two colors.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
During the course of play, do you often have 4+ of the same basic in play by turn 6-7? If so, then Extraplanar Lens might be an option for you.
I tend to build the other way around though. First, I just flat out decide whether I want Lens or not. If the answer is yes, then I just try to play as many of the same basics as possible. For me, I couldn't play more than 2 colors and use Lens. But it's definitely possible in a 2-color deck.
You don't need any Swamps to play Coffers. If you can reliably find Urborg or have a meta where players just play Urborg too often, Coffers is a go.
The deck in question is mono black, but there are a number of very good utility lands I'm running. I recently picked up another, putting me down to 24 swamps, and every time I cut a swamp I worry about Extraplanar Lens. I guess most people think 24 will be okay! Form the record, I also run Myriad Landscape (which finds swamps), as well as Thespian's Stage and Vesuva (which can become swamps).
I'm actually not running Coffers. While long term ramp is a good thing, I'm more concerned to get 5 by turn four. Coffers is Bad for this - I would need an Urborg. Other times Coffers could even prevent me from hitting five mana when I haven't hit a third swamp. I've been thinking about adding a Coffers just for later; which is why I asked.
This is a grievous error. True, Coffers won't get you to 5 mana on turn 4, but it is such a ridiculously powerful card that it deserves a slot regardless. It's been said before, but regardless of who you play in the command zone Cabal Coffers is your real general. I'm curious to see your list and why you need to hit 5 on 4 (5cmc general, I guess?), because in the mid to late game when you have plenty of Swamps dropping a Coffers is typically a game winning play.
Personally, I try to keep my Swamp count hovering around 30 due to the raw power of Coffers and other doublers like Crypt Ghast, but my list is decidedly big mana oriented.
For Extraplanar Lens, people typically use Snow basics to avoid giving people running normal basics the extra mana.
I actually started doing this in sixty-card casual before the printing of Cold Snap - back when most players were either scarcely aware of snow-covered lands (or were trying their best to forget them)!
I'm curious to see your list and why you need to hit 5 on 4 (5cmc general, I guess?), because in the mid to late game when you have plenty of Swamps dropping a Coffers is typically a game winning play.
While my general does indeed cost five mana, I'm more looking to land an early Thrumming Stone (allowing me to explode).
That said, an early explosion is not make or break. Usually I have to endure at least one board wipe, falling back on my healthy recursion package or even my back-up combo with Thornbite Staff. In some fields I won't even dare to bring all my Rats out at once - just enough to be threatening but saving enough for a second wave. Worth noting that the deck is not all in on the Rats combo. I run few enough Rats that I will sometimes fizzle; and that a single (unsick) Rat will not deal forty damage. This way I have room to run some more "fun" rats too!
Also the Coffers mana would help me play Thrumming Stone plus a Rat in a single turn, as well as for my bigger mana effects like Plague Wind, Crypt Rats, and (instant speed) Twilight's Call. I'm not particularly keen to cut back on non-basics though. These do a lot of work for me, and there are other important things besides just mana-ramp. And of course adding Coffers entails losing one of these precious non-basics, or else cutting yet another Swamp! Either way, I'm not going to like it.
I guess I should just bite the bullet and shove a Coffers in. I'm also thinking of adding a bit more (faster) ramp, another tutor or two, plus a couple fun creatures (Ratcatcher & Throat Slitter).
Thanks all for the discussion. I'm not a new player; I've been running this deck infrequently) for two or three years and I've been very happy with it. Just was looking for some other people's thoughts/opinions on mana-base theory.
I'd like to hear what the community thinks. Thanks for your input!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Now, if your playgroup is maniacal enough to unban Primeval Titan, you just need Urborg.
For Extraplanar Lens, people typically use Snow basics to avoid giving people running normal basics the extra mana. But if everybody in your meta runs Snow basics, do the opposite and use normal basics, of course. This one also depends on your color and ability to ramp to replace the land exiled. I would expect somebody to blow this up as soon as possible if I played it. Therefore the way I think of minimums is as if I need to drop this on the battlefield and tap my remaining lands right away for some blow-out play. If I have 6 forests, tap 3 for this and exile one of the tapped ones, I have 3 forests that will tap for 6 green mana, which is no gain whatsoever. If I have 10 forests, I'll have 7 tapping for 14. Do you see how it's only an incremental gain immediately after you drop it and has to survive for its value? This is why many players shy away from using the Lens. For this one I suggest doing the math of how important it is to you late-game (because it's no good early-game and so-so mid-game) and how much benefit you can get out of it then based on how many lands you'll probably have. Include as a factor whether you run mana rocks you'll be able to pay it's casting cost with instead of lands.
If these questions are for a mono-black deck there are better options than the Lens.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
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URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
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G Nylea Wurms
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old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
When running a mono black deck, I still usually try to aim for 25ish swamps. The important thing to consider there is that you wont always have coffers (just not get it or it gets answered) so I try to still run plenty of utility lands outside of coffers.
Lens - I dont run it myself because I dont like the negative tempo it gives when it is answered. It works a lot better in combo tactics where you drop lens the turn you plan to combo off so its not a problem then. I dont run combo and I think for fair decks that dont run in combo environments its a heavy burden to accept that negative land drop with its being removed.
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I do a happy dance every time this is played when Im piloting mono black. I always take the offer as no land card outside Gaea's Cradle is going to beat the mana production I'll get from Coffers.
More on topic, my mono black deck runs 29 Swamps.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
With Coffers, I'm more a fan of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but that said, I never play it in a deck with more than two colors.
On phasing:
I tend to build the other way around though. First, I just flat out decide whether I want Lens or not. If the answer is yes, then I just try to play as many of the same basics as possible. For me, I couldn't play more than 2 colors and use Lens. But it's definitely possible in a 2-color deck.
You don't need any Swamps to play Coffers. If you can reliably find Urborg or have a meta where players just play Urborg too often, Coffers is a go.
The deck in question is mono black, but there are a number of very good utility lands I'm running. I recently picked up another, putting me down to 24 swamps, and every time I cut a swamp I worry about Extraplanar Lens. I guess most people think 24 will be okay! Form the record, I also run Myriad Landscape (which finds swamps), as well as Thespian's Stage and Vesuva (which can become swamps).
I'm actually not running Coffers. While long term ramp is a good thing, I'm more concerned to get 5 by turn four. Coffers is Bad for this - I would need an Urborg. Other times Coffers could even prevent me from hitting five mana when I haven't hit a third swamp. I've been thinking about adding a Coffers just for later; which is why I asked.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
This is a grievous error. True, Coffers won't get you to 5 mana on turn 4, but it is such a ridiculously powerful card that it deserves a slot regardless. It's been said before, but regardless of who you play in the command zone Cabal Coffers is your real general. I'm curious to see your list and why you need to hit 5 on 4 (5cmc general, I guess?), because in the mid to late game when you have plenty of Swamps dropping a Coffers is typically a game winning play.
Personally, I try to keep my Swamp count hovering around 30 due to the raw power of Coffers and other doublers like Crypt Ghast, but my list is decidedly big mana oriented.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
While my general does indeed cost five mana, I'm more looking to land an early Thrumming Stone (allowing me to explode).
This is my deck.
That said, an early explosion is not make or break. Usually I have to endure at least one board wipe, falling back on my healthy recursion package or even my back-up combo with Thornbite Staff. In some fields I won't even dare to bring all my Rats out at once - just enough to be threatening but saving enough for a second wave. Worth noting that the deck is not all in on the Rats combo. I run few enough Rats that I will sometimes fizzle; and that a single (unsick) Rat will not deal forty damage. This way I have room to run some more "fun" rats too!
Also the Coffers mana would help me play Thrumming Stone plus a Rat in a single turn, as well as for my bigger mana effects like Plague Wind, Crypt Rats, and (instant speed) Twilight's Call. I'm not particularly keen to cut back on non-basics though. These do a lot of work for me, and there are other important things besides just mana-ramp. And of course adding Coffers entails losing one of these precious non-basics, or else cutting yet another Swamp! Either way, I'm not going to like it.
I guess I should just bite the bullet and shove a Coffers in. I'm also thinking of adding a bit more (faster) ramp, another tutor or two, plus a couple fun creatures (Ratcatcher & Throat Slitter).
Thanks all for the discussion. I'm not a new player; I've been running this deck infrequently) for two or three years and I've been very happy with it. Just was looking for some other people's thoughts/opinions on mana-base theory.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats