What does everyone think about this card? I've been considering it for my stax deck as a possible token producer/finisher. The token production seems expensive, but I could picture it being a decent EOT mana dump if I don't have anything better to do. The flip side gives some strong lifegain and the deck sometimes does some severe bloodletting to get things online.
Some downsides I've noticed are the cost of token production, Ormendahl can still be exiled/bounced and lands blowing up is a thing that happens with relative frequency when I play this deck.
I guess I also want to pick people's brains about this card in a more general sense. Could you see it being viable in any other decks? I find this card quite interesting and I'm digging the art. It kind of reminds me a bit of Dark Depths, though the upshot is that it taps for mana.
I use it in my Meren deck, with things like Avenger of Zendikar and Mycoloth there's usually never a lack of random tokens to sac to it but I've never actually needed to use it. I've played the land 3 or 4 times but never flipped it. To be completely honest most of the time when you've got the creatures to sacrifice to it most decent decks at the table will have exile/bounce related removal on line. I think it would work best in a deck that generally produces an abundance of tokens already, generating tokens with the land itself to activate it sounds like a horrible use of resources.
I play it in Marchesa, the Black Rose. It recently won me a game. If you think of it as a sac outlet that turns into a manland, it can be good. If you think of it only as a manland, it will not be as good. The life gain can be useful late game with Marchesa, as I usually cause myself a ton of damage throughout the game and risk being one-shotted.
I built a Teysa, Orzhov Scion deck in part because of how freaking cool I think this card is. That.... and I just wanted to have a grave pact deck together. I think its a very cool card but if you are not playing a token deck it really isn't going to happen reliably enough that I would run it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I wanted to play it in a deck but haven't really had one it could transform in easily. I'm curious to see some more feedback on the card and experience with it, because one of the reasons I haven't gone out of my way to make a build for it is I feel like it'd just end up getting removed very easily. Even people I know that play Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage or Thespian's Stage don't ever get to keep their 20/20 Flying, Indestructible Marit Lage for very long It usually gets exiled, sacrificed or stolen one way or the other in pretty short order.
I wanted to play it in a deck but haven't really had one it could transform in easily. I'm curious to see some more feedback on the card and experience with it, because one of the reasons I haven't gone out of my way to make a build for it is I feel like it'd just end up getting removed very easily. Even people I know that play Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage or Thespian's Stage don't ever get to keep their 20/20 Flying, Indestructible Marit Lage for very long It usually gets exiled, sacrificed or stolen one way or the other in pretty short order.
I dont run Marit Lage because it takes additional support to make it work. If the deck is a black token based deck, thats all it takes to have the opportunity to flip it. Its also decent if you can get into a decent position and just hold it with the mana up. Then if anyone tries dropping a wrath or something you have a backup option which I like.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I use Marit Lage in my mono black Sidisi sicne its easy to get the pieces and its important to have an optional win condition, specially if my opponen't cant take it out.
Westvale Abbey could be used in a token deck like Gisa i guess.
It would be a solid and thematically appropriate addition to a Shadowborn Apostle deck. I ran Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker and I could see scenarios where this would have been a reasonable alternative to their activated ability. The deck is obviously sacrifice themed already so losing the creatures is often going to have some immediate impact (Grave Pact, Harvester of Souls, etc).
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
I run it in Olivia, Mobilized for War. Most of the time, it's just a token-producing mana sink. When I transform it, I'm either sacrificing tokens only (and I have other token sources, like Bloodline Keeper/Lord of Lineage and Call the Bloodline), I'm sacrificing one or two nontoken creatures with reanimation in my hand, or I'm sacrificing nontoken creatures only and I have Liliana, Defiant Necromancer's emblem. (Actually, I have used it once in order to flip Liliana.)
I think the biggest thin if comparing vs Dark Depths is that Westvale Abbey still produces colorless mana so you are not out a land drop when you go to play it. If you dont have the right setup for it, its still a colorless land. If you dont have the right set up for Dark Depths, its really terrible.
In my mind, its kind of like the analogy between Maze of Ith and Kor Haven. If you are not up against big beefy creatures then Maze of Ith feels awkward. Kor Haven takes up minimal space and is a functional land outside its utility.
Because Westvale Abbey still produces mana and comes in untapped, its a small risk but a decent bit of utility assuming you ever fire the transform. Dark Depths is a liability until you fire it and often it requires additional setup to really "work". Westvale Abbey on the other hand requires less support and is a lot better when you are not firing the transform.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think the biggest thin if comparing vs Dark Depths is that Westvale Abbey still produces colorless mana so you are not out a land drop when you go to play it. If you dont have the right setup for it, its still a colorless land. If you dont have the right set up for Dark Depths, its really terrible.
In my mind, its kind of like the analogy between Maze of Ith and Kor Haven. If you are not up against big beefy creatures then Maze of Ith feels awkward. Kor Haven takes up minimal space and is a functional land outside its utility.
Because Westvale Abbey still produces mana and comes in untapped, its a small risk but a decent bit of utility assuming you ever fire the transform. Dark Depths is a liability until you fire it and often it requires additional setup to really "work". Westvale Abbey on the other hand requires less support and is a lot better when you are not firing the transform.
Yeah, I think that's what sells me on the card. It's all of the things I'm looking for: a mana source, token production, and a finisher. I mostly compared it to Dark Depths, because of the whole "dump a resource into this land: get a big beatstick" feature. The fact that it taps for mana is especially relevant in my deck, since it only runs 35 lands. I feel like most of the time, having Dark Depths out in that deck would be like hobbling around with a twisted ankle. Oh sure, you'll still get to where you're going....eventually.
I personally use Westvale in my Superfriends deck. Makes dudes to block for my PWs, and my PWs make dudes, which can be sacced for the land to flip, giving me another blocker/threat to push on my opponents.
As for Dark Depths, I actually use it in my Chisei Stax deck because it is hilarious as hell xD.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I have it in one of my decks, but I rarely actually flip it. Like mentioned before it will happen enough that they respond to you doing so and set you back a fair bit. It does generate mana though so its never entirely a dud on board and well if you have enough creatures on the board your opponents will have to consider that you might flip it.
I love the card. I use it as wrath protection in a modern deck and it has won me a number of games like that. In edh it is more likely to get bounced or exiled, but it's still good wrath protection. Leave yourself with a threat and force someone to spend a card on this. And then they've spent removal valuable removal on a land since your creatures were gonna die anyway.
Additionally, I would think it's great in any deck that wants to sac stuff. Alesha, marchesa, athreos, the unearth guy, you get my drift. A lot of decks love recycling things and it gives you one more sac outlet, it's a little more restrictive than some others but it's valuable as you can still just use it as a land until you need it.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Reverse side: Ormendahl, Profane Prince
What does everyone think about this card? I've been considering it for my stax deck as a possible token producer/finisher. The token production seems expensive, but I could picture it being a decent EOT mana dump if I don't have anything better to do. The flip side gives some strong lifegain and the deck sometimes does some severe bloodletting to get things online.
Some downsides I've noticed are the cost of token production, Ormendahl can still be exiled/bounced and lands blowing up is a thing that happens with relative frequency when I play this deck.
I guess I also want to pick people's brains about this card in a more general sense. Could you see it being viable in any other decks? I find this card quite interesting and I'm digging the art. It kind of reminds me a bit of Dark Depths, though the upshot is that it taps for mana.
Discuss.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
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[Modern] Allies
(Also known as Xenphire)
I dont run Marit Lage because it takes additional support to make it work. If the deck is a black token based deck, thats all it takes to have the opportunity to flip it. Its also decent if you can get into a decent position and just hold it with the mana up. Then if anyone tries dropping a wrath or something you have a backup option which I like.
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[Modern] Allies
Westvale Abbey could be used in a token deck like Gisa i guess.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
In my mind, its kind of like the analogy between Maze of Ith and Kor Haven. If you are not up against big beefy creatures then Maze of Ith feels awkward. Kor Haven takes up minimal space and is a functional land outside its utility.
Because Westvale Abbey still produces mana and comes in untapped, its a small risk but a decent bit of utility assuming you ever fire the transform. Dark Depths is a liability until you fire it and often it requires additional setup to really "work". Westvale Abbey on the other hand requires less support and is a lot better when you are not firing the transform.
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[Modern] Allies
Yeah, I think that's what sells me on the card. It's all of the things I'm looking for: a mana source, token production, and a finisher. I mostly compared it to Dark Depths, because of the whole "dump a resource into this land: get a big beatstick" feature. The fact that it taps for mana is especially relevant in my deck, since it only runs 35 lands. I feel like most of the time, having Dark Depths out in that deck would be like hobbling around with a twisted ankle. Oh sure, you'll still get to where you're going....eventually.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
As for Dark Depths, I actually use it in my Chisei Stax deck because it is hilarious as hell xD.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Not to mention it makes clerics so, you know...fits the theme.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
Additionally, I would think it's great in any deck that wants to sac stuff. Alesha, marchesa, athreos, the unearth guy, you get my drift. A lot of decks love recycling things and it gives you one more sac outlet, it's a little more restrictive than some others but it's valuable as you can still just use it as a land until you need it.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
On phasing: